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truth tellers....like you and me?

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  • George Walton
    Over and again you bump into folks floating about in cyberspace philosophy venues who are generaly contemptuous of those who dare to embrace a point of view
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 3, 2005
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      Over and again you bump into folks floating about in cyberspace philosophy venues who are generaly contemptuous of those who dare to embrace a point of view that is not in full compliance with their own. In other words, the truth tellers.

      I can't help them, of course, but perhaps Fernando Pessoa might nudge some of them [even me?] into accepting a less arrogant, imperious, peremptory, autocratic sense of outrage regarding the fools they must suffer over and over again.

      No doubt [sigh] they will not really understand his point at first; but there is always the possibility that one day they might become less confused about it.


      Pessoa....

      "Even my ears, should I speak out loud, do not hear the words I speak in the same way as my inner ears hear the words I speak. If even I, when I hear myself, get confused and am not always sure what I meant, then how much more other people are bound to misunderstrand me!

      "What elaborate misconceptons form other people's understanding of us!

      "The joy of being misunderstood by others cannot be had by those who want to be understood, for they are too complex to be understood and simple people, who can be understood by others, never have the desire to be understood."

      And:

      "Have you ever considered beloved Other, how invisible we are to each other? Have you ever thought about how little we know about each other? We look at each other without seeing. We listen to each other and hear only a voice inside ourself.

      "The words of others are mistakes of our hearing, shipwrecks of our understanding. How confidently we believe in our meanings of other people's words. We hear death in words they speak to express sensual bliss. We hear sensuality and life in words they drop from their lips without the slightest intention of being profound."


      The truth teller's problem [which they invariably confuse with being a solution] is, of course, that they hear themselves and almost never become confused by the things they say. And when they become confused [or enraged] by the things they hear others say they presume that is because others have failed to understand the simple truth they are conveying.

      And this point of view can often make a lot sense when you are around scientists or engineers or mathematicians or logicians. There are, after all, amply ways in which to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that confusion is not something to be suffered by fools in contexts such as these.

      But the truth tellers insist on expanding "the simple truth" to include aspects of human interaction and communication where not to be confused is the most confused point of view you can have. They want to yank out the shadows from the cave once and for all; then blow it up; then pump The Light into every orifice they can find.

      Call it, say, the Neo-Conservative Syndrome.

      It's a self-delusion of course. A psychological defense mechanism. And it is one least understood by those most confused about dasein and contingency and chance and change. And, of course, about absurdity....the inevitability of death and oblvion.

      But the sort of outrage you see expressed in philosophy venues [when folks are not understood to be demigods] is nothing compared to the furies that unfold in the political venues. There discussions revolve not around words, but around real lives hanging in the balance. From the Gulf Coast, to the streets of Baghdad, to abortion clinics, to gas chambers we struggle to contain our rage directed at others who struggle in vain to contain their own. Out in that world people suffer in unimaginable, simply unspeakable, ways. And there is often not a fucking thing we can do about it but become enraged because others won't embrace our solutions.

      This is the world we live in. One in which human communication is often brutally, horrifically, ineluctably embedded in chaos and confusion and uncertainty and ambiguity and ambivalence and bewilderment and equivocation and perplexity and self-doubt and obscurity.

      The truth tellers get pissed off at me, however, for reminding them this is no less applicable to them as well.

      Philosophy admittedly isn't even in the top 20 things most people are either hopelessly confused or admamently certain about. But the things some philosophers talk about [like God and religion and Enlightenement and ethics] are all in the top ten. It's just that approximately 99.99% of the truth tellers are adamently certain about things in which, if they were hoplessly confused instead, this would be a so much better [not to mention safer] world to live it.


      george


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    • Robert Keyes
      Feel Like giving my first impression to whatever is written here, Have not read it yet. I don t have time for in-depth analysis. Comments Below. ... From:
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 3, 2005
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        Feel Like giving my first impression to whatever is written here, Have not
        read it yet. I don't have time for in-depth analysis.
        Comments Below.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of George Walton
        Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:05 PM
        To: George Walton
        Subject: [existlist] truth tellers....like you and me?

        Over and again you bump into folks floating about in cyberspace philosophy
        venues who are generaly contemptuous of those who dare to embrace a point of
        view that is not in full compliance with their own. In other words, the
        truth tellers.


        [Robert Keyes] They are like 95 percent of the Population, i.e. those that
        know.




        I can't help them, of course, but perhaps Fernando Pessoa might nudge some
        of them [even me?] into accepting a less arrogant, imperious, peremptory,
        autocratic sense of outrage regarding the fools they must suffer over and
        over again.



        [Robert Keyes] Believing in Fairy Tales cannot be a good thing. Especially
        With Science now driving Human Progress and survival. What should be done
        about it.






        No doubt [sigh] they will not really understand his point at first; but
        there is always the possibility that one day they might become less confused
        about it.


        Pessoa....

        "Even my ears, should I speak out loud, do not hear the words I speak in the
        same way as my inner ears hear the words I speak. If even I, when I hear
        myself, get confused and am not always sure what I meant, then how much more
        other people are bound to misunderstrand me!



        [Robert Keyes] Could not agree More, but I have logically figured out
        through discussion that nobody really understands what anybody really
        thinks. If you drill down far enough you will realize you don't agree with
        probably any living human. (Like a finger Print). As a Side Note this makes
        sense as well since no 2 humans have the exact same stimuli(And Hardware)
        since birth...






        "What elaborate misconceptons form other people's understanding of us!


        Robert Keyes] Duh for sure !!


        "The joy of being misunderstood by others cannot be had by those who want to
        be understood, for they are too complex to be understood and simple people,
        who can be understood by others, never have the desire to be understood."


        [Robert Keyes] True , IQ is significant. (Not arguing the test-Stipulate
        that Some Human Groups are genetically smarter and it can be measured
        somehow) i.e. Groups of Humans that will not give Mystic thoughts as even an
        Option. That group is small ( I always knew I was odd) But I am glad to
        belong to it. (and Yes we do think our way of thinking is best, and thus we
        are superior-(some humor with truth))


        And:

        "Have you ever considered beloved Other, how invisible we are to each other?
        Have you ever thought about how little we know about each other? We look at
        each other without seeing. We listen to each other and hear only a voice
        inside ourself.


        [Robert Keyes] Lucky Humans don't really care for their fellow man or this
        Might be a problem...




        "The words of others are mistakes of our hearing, shipwrecks of our
        understanding. How confidently we believe in our meanings of other people's
        words. We hear death in words they speak to express sensual bliss. We hear
        sensuality and life in words they drop from their lips without the slightest
        intention of being profound."



        [Robert Keyes] All True !!. That is why nobody should talk unless they agree
        on every word used between the 2. That is the only way to have a serious
        conversation. And What would they do when they find out they cannot agree on
        any of the words. OMG !!





        The truth teller's problem [which they invariably confuse with being a
        solution] is, of course, that they hear themselves and almost never become
        confused by the things they say. And when they become confused [or enraged]
        by the things they hear others say they presume that is because others have
        failed to understand the simple truth they are conveying.


        [Robert Keyes] I feel this when talking to Mystics. I think they have the
        right to make that judgement, simply because I do. (don't want that right
        taken away-(some humor- I know you all think it is funny)





        And this point of view can often make a lot sense when you are around
        scientists or engineers or mathematicians or logicians. There are, after
        all, amply ways in which to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that
        confusion is not something to be suffered by fools in contexts such as
        these.

        But the truth tellers insist on expanding "the simple truth" to include
        aspects of human interaction and communication where not to be confused is
        the most confused point of view you can have. They want to yank out the
        shadows from the cave once and for all; then blow it up; then pump The Light
        into every orifice they can find.



        [Robert Keyes] True, that is why they must be stopped.




        Call it, say, the Neo-Conservative Syndrome.

        It's a self-delusion of course. A psychological defense mechanism. And it is
        one least understood by those most confused about dasein and contingency and
        chance and change. And, of course, about absurdity....the inevitability of
        death and oblvion.



        [Robert Keyes] True for the Individual, However what Runs the Game now is
        Groups (Companies, Governments blah blah) It is some measure of Average of
        what Humans think on this Earth at the moment. Look at TV ( what Humans like
        to watch) it does reflect death and oblivion, because they don't care. The
        History Channel is an exception but nobody watches that (some humor there
        again)




        But the sort of outrage you see expressed in philosophy venues [when folks
        are not understood to be demigods] is nothing compared to the furies that
        unfold in the political venues. There discussions revolve not around words,
        but around real lives hanging in the balance. From the Gulf Coast, to the
        streets of Baghdad, to abortion clinics, to gas chambers we struggle to
        contain our rage directed at others who struggle in vain to contain their
        own. Out in that world people suffer in unimaginable, simply unspeakable,
        ways. And there is often not a fucking thing we can do about it but become
        enraged because others won't embrace our solutions.



        [Robert Keyes] Lucky I don't care if people I don't know die...
        Intellectually I do but emotionally I don't. (Emotion wins this one-I
        thought I was above emotion till now-just thinking out loud-humor right?)






        This is the world we live in. One in which human communication is often
        brutally, horrifically, ineluctably embedded in chaos and confusion and
        uncertainty and ambiguity and ambivalence and bewilderment and equivocation
        and perplexity and self-doubt and obscurity.



        [Robert Keyes] Of course, every the Nuts agree with this...What group thinks
        things are perfect ( Side thought- if one does not exist I might try to
        create one for money )....Don't steal my idea: Hypothetical Scheme) My
        Philosophy is things are Great, even death because it makes you appreciate
        Life or something like that.




        The truth tellers get pissed off at me, however, for reminding them this is
        no less applicable to them as well.



        [Robert Keyes] This is the best Point so FAR . When I talk to people, I
        bring up this very Point, and they don't want to talk about it because their
        whole argument depends on them just thinking the way they do is true. I am
        not sure what IQ is necessary to see this point, but its up there because
        most Humans don't get it..






        Philosophy admittedly isn't even in the top 20 things most people are either
        hopelessly confused or admamently certain about.



        [Robert Keyes] 99.9 percent of Humans don't care about Philosophy.





        But the things some philosophers talk about [like God and religion and
        Enlightenement and ethics] are all in the top ten. It's just that
        approximately 99.99% of the truth tellers are adamently certain about things
        in which, if they were hoplessly confused instead, this would be a so much
        better [not to mention safer] world to live it.

        [Robert Keyes] True Humans are on a Bell Curve and it is significant to how
        they view the world. I don't think in the Long Run it can be good to promote
        the believing in fairy tales to the general society. I would teach them
        science.
        Bob...


        george


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      • Aija Veldre Beldavs
        so many really good posts the last few days...and reactions to them. ... the problem isn t with fairy tales, fantasy, myth, folklore, imagination, science
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 4, 2005
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          so many really good posts the last few days...and reactions to them.
          a quick response to one where i pick a bone on a simple, obvious level:

          > they view the world. I don't think in the Long Run it can be good to promote
          > the believing in fairy tales to the general society. I would teach them
          > science. Bob...

          the problem isn't with fairy tales, fantasy, myth, folklore, imagination,
          science fiction, role playing, virtual reality, etc. if they're seen and
          taught as such. if we don't know much of anything for sure, if it's all
          phenomenological constructs, the claim to be absolute truth falls away,
          everything has its limits as to what can do and express. of course science
          is the most efficient way known to achieve certain results (not truths as
          has already been pointed out on the list) and communicate with universally
          accepted structures and signs without need of translation as with natural
          language.

          take away from people what they have constructed as deeply meaningful,
          especially core values held in common, traditions acquired over
          generations as variable tests over time and space, tied to lifestyles and
          environment, and most people will flounder, the vacuum is often filled
          with self-destructive distractions because systems take time and
          experience to build, not just insight and brilliance.

          additionally, i don't see tradition as static, or stuck in history, but as
          one of the evolutionary adapting dynamics.

          over time, a lot of things fall as they may (of course not as someone
          might like), a natural kind of homeostasis. without some kind of
          foundation or focus many will turn to drugs, alcohol, dysfunctional
          activity. i recall recounts about native American children in Canada
          sniffing gasolene, the same happening with marginalized poor aboriginal
          populations in Australia or Siberia. drug abuse increases with collective
          social malaise.

          top-down trying to radically, violently cleanse society of accumulated
          tradition, religion, values was a fundamental mistake made by the
          extremists of the socialist revolution. the other mistake was dumping
          humanism and a good part of the Enlightenement with an ends justifies the
          means ultraidealistic or ultramaterialist disregard of human cost and
          suffering - individual or group.

          i see a shifting adaptable optimum state for one to be open to
          enlightenment (including reason, science). as Simone points out related
          to transcendence of one's present "situation", an adjustment of
          homeostasis, rather than imagining "being there"/ dasein as consisting of
          nonadaptive static states. either a violent state of
          rage/revenge/scapegoating, or total desperation, hopelessness throw the
          system into intolerable dysfunction in that it is a social system of, for,
          by humans: it's not just an intellectual phenomena to experience the loss
          of meaning, the bottom dropping out, absurdness of one's personal world
          especially when horrible things happen, not just individually but to one's
          group. many people in the world have this crisis experience, not just
          intellectuals.

          it is just as easy for intellectuals (the "you's and me's") to generalize
          and to look for easy targets to blame, except having more power, there is
          potential for great damage. i prefer to think the small percent george
          talks about are the ones who pull together enough to look for solutions or
          at least options, assume responsibility, and try to be constructive even
          against perceived odds and loss of hope. needless to say, of that small
          percent not everyone is an academic. a lot happens bottom -up, also
          accumulatively, often not easily observable from the top.

          btw i don't have an easy overall answer to know-it-alls truth tellers
          (hmm...also thinking of Dune's truth sayers). i've slugged it out with
          some, ignored others, haven't really brought over anyone to my way of
          thinking (which in a Bakhtinian sense is fine, as both engaged sides go
          away with a better understanding of something.:)

          aija
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