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anguish

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  • louise
    Mostly we are too spiritually weak, in the West, to make atonement in the right way. Even on this list, I think the casual talk about politics, which I fought
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 20, 2005
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      Mostly we are too spiritually weak, in the West, to make atonement
      in the right way. Even on this list, I think the casual talk about
      politics, which I fought and fought against, within myself, not to
      rest in similar insouciance, and I think I lost that battle,
      briefly, yes even on this list the casual is horror. Kierkegaard
      cannot be understood without appreciating that. The most profound
      philosophers are realists. Whether they be intellectuals grave and
      sober, or sensualists who smell the blood, they know evil when they
      see it. So what I'm saying is that, if I were spiritually robust
      enough, I would be wearing sackcloth and ashes right now. Sick at
      what my country is a party to. I have read virtually nothing of
      what Sartre and de Beauvoir had to say. They seem to me singularly
      unlikely to provide any solutions that bear on contemporary
      politics, if what I have seen posted here is anything to go by.
      Mass carnage and mass distraction, the standard material of our
      information outlets, it is all an almost incredible aberration.
      Until that is felt, and believed, useful revolution as opposed to
      coffee-shop debates is unlikely to occur. And I for one cannot
      think of a single twentieth century revolution I could
      call 'useful'. Reading, thinking, waiting, dancing. I don't know
      what else there is to do.

      Louise
    • Bob Keyes
      I am going to attempt to understand something you wrote, My guess is I wont understand at least half. Bob.. Comments Below.. ... From:
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 20, 2005
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        I am going to attempt to understand something you wrote, My guess is I wont
        understand at least half.
        Bob.. Comments Below..

        -----Original Message-----
        From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of louise
        Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 4:55 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] anguish


        Mostly we are too spiritually weak, in the West, to make atonement
        in the right way. Even on this list, I think the casual talk about
        politics, which I fought and fought against, within myself, not to
        rest in similar insouciance, and I think I lost that battle,
        briefly, yes even on this list the casual is horror.
        Kierkegaard
        cannot be understood without appreciating that.


        Bob... Have no idea what you are talking about. (Not that it does not make
        sense of course, I have to first understand what somebody means before I
        make
        that judgment)


        The most profound
        philosophers are realists. Whether they be intellectuals grave and
        sober, or sensualists who smell the blood, they know evil when they
        see it. So what I'm saying is that, if I were spiritually robust
        enough, I would be wearing sackcloth and ashes right now. Sick at
        what my country is a party to.

        Bob. True, If you realize there not much you can do about it, why bother.
        Take voting. No matter how you rationalize it, your singular vote does not
        matter. It will not decide anything, Especially in a National Election the
        Odds
        go to near zero. (Divided by your Lifespan for it to Happen- not talking
        billions of
        elections here- some humor)
        People Wear Sackcloth and Ashes because they enjoy it, you were not born
        with a different
        brain type.(Hardware), You are stuck to think like you are, what amazes me
        is would like to View Life with a more illogical Mind instead of yours, so
        you could
        achieve some Political Objective, How odd... Are you Crazy ?






        I have read virtually nothing of
        what Sartre and de Beauvoir had to say. They seem to me singularly
        unlikely to provide any solutions that bear on contemporary
        politics, if what I have seen posted here is anything to go by.

        Bob... His Ideas can be interpred like the Bible if you go deep enough.
        Taking these (heros) that serious would be (Like Religion) like pretending
        like Archimedes would
        be more an authority on Nuclear Physics than Einstein.






        Mass carnage and mass distraction, the standard material of our
        information outlets, it is all an almost incredible aberration.

        Bob... Sucks when nobody likes your type of TV Show, Don't be so critical
        of the Normal (average) when you seem to wish you were one of them. (even if
        it
        is for a sick twisted reason)




        Until that is felt, and believed, useful revolution as opposed to
        coffee-shop debates is unlikely to occur. And I for one cannot
        think of a single twentieth century revolution I could
        call 'useful'. Reading, thinking, waiting, dancing. I don't know
        what else there is to do.

        Bob... Soceity(even the world) Happens to be relatively Stable, given
        the past. It takes a crisis to change things, Even with Iraq things are
        peaceful (ok oil is higher and it would not have been if it were not for the
        war
        because China and India would not grow economically as fast and drain the
        supply
        like they are doing- simple economics joke)






        Louise





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      • Trinidad Cruz
        ... And I for one cannot think of a single twentieth century revolution I could call useful . That is because you are white and British,with enought to eat,
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...> wrote:

          "And I for one cannot think of a single twentieth century revolution I
          could call 'useful'."


          That is because you are white and British,with enought to eat, access
          to decent medical care, and a roof over your head.

          tc
        • louise
          ... I ... that s a very parochial reply. it is true that my sympathetic affections may be stronger, at least some of the time, when i see the plight of my
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Trinidad Cruz" <cruzprdb@w...>
            wrote:
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...> wrote:
            >
            > "And I for one cannot think of a single twentieth century revolution
            I
            > could call 'useful'."
            >
            >
            > That is because you are white and British,with enought to eat, access
            > to decent medical care, and a roof over your head.
            >
            > tc

            that's a very parochial reply. it is true that my sympathetic
            affections may be stronger, at least some of the time, when i see the
            plight of my kindred with British ancestry, suffering murder and
            theft, at the hands of African tyrants, for instance, but the
            spectacular failures of Communism in Africa - often, of course, allied
            with financial and business interests hardly socialistic in nature -
            have brought suffering on an unimaginable scale to that continent.
            most of the victims of these pseudo-revolutions are not white.

            louise
          • Trinidad Cruz
            ... that s a very parochial reply. I must be bored this morning, or perhaps it is because this is the first morning in several weeks that I have arisen to
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...> wrote:

              "that's a very parochial reply."

              I must be bored this morning, or perhaps it is because this is the
              first morning in several weeks that I have arisen to face the day on
              more than three hours sleep. If I am "parochial"; in comparison one
              could only define you as "hyper-super-duper-extra-parochial". In a
              sense such hyperbole would make the word meaningless in normal usage.I
              realize you fancy yourself as poetic, and on such grounds would
              dismiss yourself from sensible responsibility in ordinary discourse,
              but there is a rather serpentine nasty turn to every comment you make
              here, depending of course on one's perspective and life experience.
              That indeed characterizes nearly everything you write here as
              parochial. There is no contributor on this list more political than
              you. Unfortunately Louise you are neither iconoclastic nor
              cosmopolitan in any real sense of the words so you come off most often
              here as a vapid and cruel mixer.I can only assume that you get some
              sort of thrill from such encounters, and as an existentialist wish you
              well with your burden, though I personally consider it nothing short
              of an addicition to stupidity and prejudice presenting some rather
              nasty symptomatic self-justification on the basis of weakness and
              pain.You are not a tough cookie, but rather more a nasty child with a
              penchant for provocation that borders on a psychological
              disturbance.Given that English is my second language I really think it
              is more than fair for me to criticize your undiplomatic usage, but
              then I am rather more cosmopolitan and should laugh you off, and
              probably would if you only presented yourself with little less
              self-importance.Ooops I forgot to think twice before hitting
              send.There you have it.

              tc
            • louise
              tc, at least i m used to you and your thoughtless motive-attributing insults by now, so they glance off. yes indeed, i am most political. i do examine
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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                tc,

                at least i'm used to you and your thoughtless motive-attributing
                insults by now, so they glance off. yes indeed, i am most
                political. i do examine myself, with religious devotion, however,
                or you might say Nietzschean intellectual conscience, as to any self-
                deception. i could be wrong, indeed, but i believe that one reason
                i can hardly think at all about African politics is because it is so
                intensely distressing, and, as it seems to me, on account of - as I
                have stated before at this room, a too-rapid withdrawal from
                Empire. the so-called revolutions of the modern age, from the
                regicidal French tyrannies onward, are certainly mixed as to degree
                of benefit and loss sustained by oppressed classes, but the net
                effect looks evident from where i stand - sometimes an arguable
                good, and often a catastrophe. thus i tend to see these revolutions
                as evolutions in disguise. this is my point. until we have a truly
                new way of thinking, instead of humanistic paradigms dependent on
                closeness to or opposition toward institutional religious system, we
                have no revolution based in justice and equity.

                ok, i grant that you are functioning on too little sleep, and that
                English is your second language. your general habit of attack,
                however, is something i think i am entitled to point out. there was
                a time when it harmed me, and it may still harm others.

                you're entitled to be cosmopolitan. another ontical description,
                one i think parochial. we can disagree. or, at least, i assert
                that i disagree with you. i am a British patriot, and why you think
                that parochial is quite beyond me. it is also, of course, a
                description in the ontical domain. philosophising is intricate and
                cumulative - i stand by my entire oeuvre at existlist, uneven as it
                is. there is only one sentence i have ever written here which gave
                me a feeling of shame subsequently, for i realised i had ventured
                outside my proper field of competence, and been too positivistic.
                again and again i say the same truth, in Kierkegaardian repetition:
                persistence is all. if you don't want to read, click on 'next
                message', etc. or fire off another broadside if you want.

                louise

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Trinidad Cruz" <cruzprdb@w...>
                wrote:
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > "that's a very parochial reply."
                >
                > I must be bored this morning, or perhaps it is because this is the
                > first morning in several weeks that I have arisen to face the day
                on
                > more than three hours sleep. If I am "parochial"; in comparison one
                > could only define you as "hyper-super-duper-extra-parochial". In a
                > sense such hyperbole would make the word meaningless in normal
                usage.I
                > realize you fancy yourself as poetic, and on such grounds would
                > dismiss yourself from sensible responsibility in ordinary
                discourse,
                > but there is a rather serpentine nasty turn to every comment you
                make
                > here, depending of course on one's perspective and life experience.
                > That indeed characterizes nearly everything you write here as
                > parochial. There is no contributor on this list more political than
                > you. Unfortunately Louise you are neither iconoclastic nor
                > cosmopolitan in any real sense of the words so you come off most
                often
                > here as a vapid and cruel mixer.I can only assume that you get some
                > sort of thrill from such encounters, and as an existentialist wish
                you
                > well with your burden, though I personally consider it nothing
                short
                > of an addicition to stupidity and prejudice presenting some rather
                > nasty symptomatic self-justification on the basis of weakness and
                > pain.You are not a tough cookie, but rather more a nasty child
                with a
                > penchant for provocation that borders on a psychological
                > disturbance.Given that English is my second language I really
                think it
                > is more than fair for me to criticize your undiplomatic usage, but
                > then I am rather more cosmopolitan and should laugh you off, and
                > probably would if you only presented yourself with little less
                > self-importance.Ooops I forgot to think twice before hitting
                > send.There you have it.
                >
                > tc
              • Bob Keyes
                Bob.. Some comments Below... ... From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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                  Bob.. Some comments Below...

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz
                  Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 1:23 PM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: anguish


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...> wrote:

                  "that's a very parochial reply."

                  I must be bored this morning, or perhaps it is because this is the
                  first morning in several weeks that I have arisen to face the day on
                  more than three hours sleep. If I am "parochial"; in comparison one
                  could only define you as "hyper-super-duper-extra-parochial".

                  Bob.. You are out there Louise admit it. As far as analyzing reality, tc
                  comes
                  closer to most in my view. (I am bias due to similar assumptions).



                  In a
                  sense such hyperbole would make the word meaningless in normal usage.I
                  realize you fancy yourself as poetic, and on such grounds would
                  dismiss yourself from sensible responsibility in ordinary discourse,


                  Bob... tc gets an A for Humor ane an A for Poetic ness here.(not sure if
                  that is a word- laying new groundwork for meaning, it has to start
                  somewhere).





                  but there is a rather serpentine nasty turn to every comment you make
                  here, depending of course on one's perspective and life experience.
                  That indeed characterizes nearly everything you write here as
                  parochial. There is no contributor on this list more political than
                  you. Unfortunately Louise you are neither iconoclastic nor
                  cosmopolitan in any real sense of the words so you come off most often
                  here as a vapid and cruel mixer.I can only assume that you get some
                  sort of thrill from such encounters, and as an existentialist wish you
                  well with your burden, though I personally consider it nothing short
                  of an addicition to stupidity and prejudice presenting some rather
                  nasty symptomatic self-justification on the basis of weakness and
                  pain.You are not a tough cookie, but rather more a nasty child with a
                  penchant for provocation that borders on a psychological
                  disturbance.

                  Bob.. Fascinating analysis of ones brain....




                  Given that English is my second language I really think it
                  is more than fair for me to criticize your undiplomatic usage, but
                  then I am rather more cosmopolitan and should laugh you off, and
                  probably would if you only presented yourself with little less
                  self-importance.Ooops I forgot to think twice before hitting
                  send.There you have it.

                  Bob. This is Interesting. All Smart Humans make a judgment if they are
                  smarter than others.
                  I am sure both tc and Louie think they are smarter than most Humans.
                  Self-importance. I would love to hear that word defined, but I would say my
                  emotional response (I have heard the term) is that.
                  a. Louise Seems to have more self importance
                  b. tc seems to be trying for a more strict sense of understand and would
                  view himself naturally as less self-important.
                  Conclusion. I have not had time to read all the posts of those I so
                  callously opine about.
                  This is just an emotional feel from what I have read of both.... I am sure
                  you all care deeply.
                  Bob....




                  tc





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                • Bob Keyes
                  Great Post.. Bob... ( No time to comment but good).. ... From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of matthew_piscioneri
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 21, 2005
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                    Great Post..
                    Bob... ( No time to comment but good)..

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of matthew_piscioneri
                    Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 6:16 AM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: anguish


                    Bob/Louise:

                    > So what I'm saying is that, if I were spiritually robust
                    > enough, I would be wearing sackcloth and ashes right now. Sick at
                    > what my country is a party to.
                    >
                    > Bob. True, If you realize there not much you can do about it, why
                    bother.

                    Why not wear sackcloth and ashes once you realize there is not much
                    you can do about it :-). Equally, why not be sick at what your
                    country is a party to? Bob: Is there some non-equivalence between the
                    absurdity of *being sick,* and being *sickened by politics*? Sounds
                    like a good dose of nausea all around. Each to their sickness; no?

                    > Mass carnage and mass distraction, the standard material of our
                    > information outlets, it is all an almost incredible aberration.
                    >
                    Don't be so critical
                    > of the Normal (average) when you seem to wish you were one of them.

                    Again, the pot calling the kettle black perhaps. Still:

                    [LOL]> Bob... Sucks when nobody likes your type of TV Show,

                    thought this pithy/witty/insightful.
                    --------------------------
                    > Until that is felt, and believed, useful revolution as opposed to
                    > coffee-shop debates is unlikely to occur. And I for one cannot
                    > think of a single twentieth century revolution I could
                    > call 'useful'. Reading, thinking, waiting, dancing. I don't know
                    > what else there is to do.
                    >
                    > Bob... Soceity(even the world) Happens to be relatively Stable,
                    given
                    > the past.

                    And is *stability* always necessarily a *good*? Prior to the invasion
                    of Iraq, life was probably fairly stable for most people. Don't think
                    so now. More stable for Londoners? Or Sydneysiders? Or Romans? Sabre
                    rattling continues across the Taiwan Straits. Iran's detente and
                    N.Korea's brinkmanship etc.

                    Bob, you did qualify your statement: *relative* stability, and I
                    agree. Shame Burma and Zimbabwe can't quickly be brought under the
                    heel of the NWO.

                    Actually, social control in most jurisdictions is partially (though
                    importantly) obtained by ensuring a omnipresent degree of social
                    anxiety. The slaves can never be allowed to get *too* happy.
                    Otherwise, they might not turn up for work on Monday :-).

                    My guess is that most of the slaves implicitly thrive on the angst
                    and anxiety their b/w morning prayer and electronic information
                    outlets purvey. Anything less and the thin, taut existential salve
                    of "If only...," via which most of us immunize our lives from the
                    terror of liberating self-responsibility, would snap.

                    Put simply, without pervasive anxiety, without fear - many of us
                    wouldn't cope very well at all.

                    Without wanting to sound too much like a rehash of R.E.M/Billy Joel:

                    Cold War/Club of Rome/DDT/Global warming/HIV/OBL/Middle East/Bird
                    flu/GWB/Tony Blair/Dick Cheney/interest rates/oil prices/aesteroids
                    from outta space...

                    Fear. Don't you love it. If you can't see through the bullshit, then
                    the best you can probably do is acquire a taste for it.

                    cheers,

                    mattP





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                  • Mary
                    I need to stop using anxiety in relation to existentialism. As Sartre pointed out, fear isn t caused by nothingness but anguish is. Nothingness lies coiled
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 11, 2013
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                      I need to stop using 'anxiety' in relation to existentialism. As Sartre pointed out, fear isn't caused by nothingness but anguish is. "Nothingness lies coiled at the heart of being—like a worm," so self-help methods may be considered bad faith and excuses to face our freedom.

                      Mary
                    • eduardathome
                      Mary, I don’t understand. How does the quote “Nothingness lies coiled at the heart of being—like a worm, address the issue of anguish or anxiety?? Why
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 11, 2013
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                        Mary,

                        I don’t understand. How does the quote “Nothingness lies coiled at the heart of being—like a worm," address the issue of anguish or anxiety??

                        Why would trying to deal with whatever anxiety you may have be considered bad faith. Surely an attempt, even self-help, to deal with one’s anxiety is laudable.

                        eduard

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Mary
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:08 PM
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [existlist] anguish

                        I need to stop using 'anxiety' in relation to existentialism. As Sartre pointed out, fear isn't caused by nothingness but anguish is. "Nothingness lies coiled at the heart of being—like a worm," so self-help methods may be considered bad faith and excuses to face our freedom.

                        Mary



                        ------------------------------------

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