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RE: [existlist] Re: I'll have fries and a side of existentialism with that...

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  • Eduard Alf
    Bill, And I suppose I reacted to the subject. Certainly Hitler started off with some very good concerns. Or perhaps I should say that Germany had the concerns
    Message 1 of 193 , Sep 4, 2001
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      Bill,

      And I suppose I reacted to the subject. Certainly
      Hitler started off with some very good concerns.
      Or perhaps I should say that Germany had the
      concerns and Hitler provided the vehicle by which
      to address them. I think he was more of an
      opportunist than a faulted statesman. The problem
      is that this kind of political situation is that
      it tends to take on a life of its own. First you
      are marching with shovels on your shoulder to take
      back the Ruhr valley and then it is big guns,
      tanks and planes into Poland. I should think that
      even McCarthy was well meaning when he declared
      that there was 57 varieties of communists in the
      defense department.

      Political entities that are trying to get
      somewhere fast tend to be single issue parties.
      They prey upon peoples immediate concerns, and
      then when elected they have to play up these
      concerns to stay in office to increase their
      power. Perhaps that is the difference between
      American and Canadian politics. Although we seem
      forever caught up in the separation issue, in
      general people tend to vote for the party which
      can give them good government. We don't vote for
      a leader of the party who then has to live up with
      his commitments. Our political system is such
      that the leader is elected by the party, and if
      the party itself has the majority of seats in
      Parliament, then their leader automatically
      becomes Prime Minister. I really felt for Bush in
      trying to deal with that Stem Cell issue and still
      not turn off too much of his support base.

      eduard





      -----Original Message-----
      From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:34 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: I'll have fries and a
      side of
      existentialism with that...


      Eduard, It must seem I am carried away with
      Hitler, but I look at his
      movement as an experiment gone horribly wrong. I
      think the best future is
      right now being formulated in the minds of
      thinking individuals. The best
      plans need not cause violent upheaval. Our recent
      past seems relatively
      peaceful as compaired to the 50 years before it.
      We do not need 90 degree
      turns, we need thoughtful building on reasonable
      foundations. Bookdoc scared
      me at first, but now I see him as more
      multifactorial in his analysis than I
      am. I think he is often overwehlmed by the
      complexity of his vision. I also
      think he gives more weight to intuition and
      emotion than do I. But when the
      shit hits the fan he would opt for the best
      outcome for the most people
      involved. Discussing matters with a guy like that
      can be productive Bill

      Eduard Alf wrote:

      > Bill,
      >
      > I do not disagree with what you are saying. The
      > Germans certainly had a good reason for feeling
      > bitter towards the Allies and in particular with
      > the French who insisted upon payment of
      inordinate
      > reparations. Certainly Hitler was influenced by
      > the conditions and feelings of his time. If
      > somehow you could turn a blind eye to some
      aspects
      > of his rule, you could come up with a lot of
      > benefits. People were put back to work. There
      > was a direct effort to restore the hopes of the
      > average German [as long as you were not part of
      > the many badged minorities].
      >
      > I am not in a position of knowledge to give a
      good
      > opinion on the condition of Vietnam veterans.
      My
      > understanding is that it was a war than the
      > American people would like to forget. My
      > impression, at the time in the 60s, was that
      this
      > was a war that was fought on the side. Granted,
      > whilst I sat in the terminal building in Newark,
      I
      > could see all sorts of young men and women in
      > military uniform, but when outside the airport
      > there was not that much evidence of a war going
      > on. Sure, there were body counts reported on
      the
      > TV for the 6 o'clock news, but life in general
      > went on as it always did.
      >
      > Now you can fault me on this because I am a
      > Canadian and although a lot of Canadians joined
      > the US military [I had even gone down to
      > Plattsburg to join up, without telling my
      > parents], it was seen primarily as America's war
      > and for the most part America could afford it.
      >
      > The way I see it, the Vietnam war was fought on
      > the side. A lot of young people were called up
      > and then sent in-country where they got stuck in
      > the mud, shot at and returned home either dead
      or
      > physically and mentally damaged. Lyndon Johnson
      > could not seem to resolve the problem and the
      > military resources dedicated to the war, seemed
      to
      > grow without control. Although he managed to
      > continue Kennedy's New Frontier Program, his own
      > Great Society effort came to nothing. But even
      at
      > that, the majority of Americans were not
      directly
      > involved in the war, yet they had to choose
      sides
      > as to whether they were for or against the war.
      > After Kent State in 1970, a lot of people had
      > second thoughts. But just how to get out of it
      > was the big question. Which was sort of obvious
      > to the Smothers Brothers who proclaimed on TV
      that
      > the US should simply declare a Victory and
      > everyone go home.
      >
      > But overall, it was a war that, for those on the
      > home front, could be put aside. Put aside so as
      > to concentrate on other things like simple
      living.
      > Not like WW2 when everyone was after you to buy
      > war bonds and new cars came with wooden bumpers
      > because the use of chrome was restricted.
      >
      > The tragedy of it, however, is that not only
      could
      > the war be put aside, but also those who fought
      > it. I think that in large part this is reason
      for
      > the negativity that was and is still felt by
      > veterans.
      >
      > Sorry, I got carried away with this. The point
      I
      > wished to make was that regardless of the
      > bitterness, there remains a need for order.
      > Lawlessness leads just as easily to the abyss,
      and
      > we don't need another Hitler, even if he can get
      > the trains to move on time.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
      > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:40 AM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: I'll have fries and
      a
      > side of
      > existentialism with that...
      >
      > Eduard, Certainly the US was not beaten in Viet
      > Nam as badly as was
      > Germany in WW2. Hitler was an Iron cross
      awarded
      > vet of a defeated army.
      > Viet era vets here suffer a particular
      > degredation even within the service
      > itself. They are not trusted and are often
      > excluded. It must be particurally
      > galling to preform admirably under fire and then
      > be ostrasized for it. That
      > negativism flowered brutally in the brown
      shirts.
      > Hitler was actually
      > rebelling against the colonial powers of Europe.
      > He was trying something new,
      > but he was very embittered and the hate and
      > negativity flowerd along with
      > his movement. Viet vets have seething
      resentments
      > here. With forecasts of
      > world wide economic downturn, they could become
      a
      > strident voice at the core
      > of a new constituancy. Old warriors are not
      > frightened by words, they have
      > gone far beyond them befor. Bille
      >
      >
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    • Eduard Alf
      The idea of Serendipity comes from an Arabic tale of the three princes of Serendip who had the faculty of making fortunate discoveries by accident. It has
      Message 193 of 193 , Oct 5, 2001
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        The idea of Serendipity comes from an Arabic tale of the three princes of
        Serendip who had the faculty of making fortunate discoveries by accident.
        It has nothing to do with religion or the divine or of metaphysical
        presence. The application of Serendipity requires that one be open to
        things new.

        As to Occams razor, I much prefer the definition that, "sometimes the best
        answer is the simplest".

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:18 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism as Industrial Tao


        Ryan, Occams razor is a tool of logic that postulates: In a situation
        where no
        definite causality is apparent, the most likely of agents is the best
        choice.
        Divine intervention always takes a leap of faith and since no natural
        laws are
        broken there must be a more proximate solution. Where did this concept of
        serendipidy come from? I have seen a movie with John Cusac that deals
        with it.
        It seems to hold the attention of the under thirty crowd. Your view of it
        Ryan
        seems very normal but others take it as some manifestation of metaphysical
        presence. The steel gerder in the shape of a cross seems to be garnishing
        a
        serendipidous following. I always preferred a Oujie board so I could rub
        knees
        with some cute coed. That was serendipidy, Bill

        Ryan Dewald wrote:

        > Heya Bill,
        >
        > What's Occam's razor?
        >
        > Serendipity is one of my guilty pleasures. There is enough randomness,
        in
        > my opinion to account for the occasional unlikely encounter, like say,
        > running into a high school fling on a remote beach in Thailand. Despite
        > believing that it is nothing but chance, I still file a little piece of
        the
        > event under "magic" just because it makes me smile.
        >
        > There is a really good reason, I believe, to NOT consider serendipity a
        > divine event. If you leave it to the Higher Powers, you're not going to
        > help along those occurances. But if you consider the events leading up
        to a
        > serrendipitous encounter, you're likely to come up with at least a few
        > important principles that form a pattern of serendipity.
        >
        > For example, smiling at strangers, looking around rooms, helping out
        people
        > liberally all contribute to an extended network of people you know.
        These
        > actions also inspire others to do the same making it more likely in the
        > future that someone who happens to have jumpercables will stop and help
        you
        > in the middle of Death Valley at 2 in the morning.
        >
        > As for religion: I have a 2-bit definition for that too. I'm a big fan
        of
        > 2-bit definitions. Mind you it doesn't define a cause of religion, just
        what
        > all religions do.
        >
        > Religion: A story, real or otherwise, that explains from whence we
        came,
        > how ought we live our lives and what happens to us when we die.
        >
        > I wouldn't care what people believed in religion-wise if it didn't have
        > direct impacts on me and my life. Bill, the difference between
        recreation
        > and religion is that when I go biking, I don't tell other people how
        they
        > have to live their lives. When I practice religion, I often do (where
        this
        > is not true, I have no problem with religion).
        >
        > Even when religion doesn't impact other people, its benefits to the
        > practicing individual must be debited against the disadvantage of
        holding an
        > incorrect world-view. I'm not calling any one religion wrong, but they
        > can't all be right, which means some people have deluded views of the
        world
        > (not a real news flash there hey?). They are less able to respond to
        > stimulus around them in the most long-term healthy way becuase they have
        > incorrect information. blah blah... science blah blah... evolution.
        have a
        > great friday everyone!
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
        > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 9:10 AM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism as Industrial Tao
        >
        > Eduard, In order to combat excessive drinking I have four major
        activities I
        > can
        > engage in at almost any time. This group is beginning to encroach on
        some
        > of my
        > play time, and I like it. I am reminded of the concept of the fruit of
        the
        > poisoined tree. Religion rests on a basis of unreality. Many use it like
        I
        > use
        > skiing or bicycling, as a diversion to keep me out of the whore house or
        > saloon. O.K. but as Stevie Wonder says, "When you believe in things you
        > dont
        > understand you suffer superstition anyway" Which brings me to a
        question
        > about
        > a new to me reason of faith I was exposed to recently. A occurance
        referred
        > to
        > as serendipidy seems to give some a reason to see divine guidance in
        > temporal
        > happenings. I asked the "serendipidist" if any physical laws were broken
        in
        > these unlikely chains of events. He said no, but the occurances were so
        > ordered
        > as to remove the possibility of chance happening. He therefore infers
        divine
        > intervention. Imust ask him if he has heard of Occams razor. Any
        comments?
        > Bill
        >
        > Eduard Alf wrote:
        >
        > > Bill,
        > >
        > > I would suggest that there is always a way back to simple serendipity.
        It
        > > is a matter of letting go. Letting go of the things that we consider
        to
        > be
        > > of importance, yet really do not make much of a difference in the end.
        > >
        > > I like the definition of religion which is, "A cause, principle, or
        > activity
        > > pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion".
        > >
        > > The thing that we are seeking is a singularity upon which to focus our
        > > minds. The problem that we face is that we have too many
        alternatives,
        > > especially in the Western World. The existentialist concept is
        laudable,
        > > but it still leaves the question of making "what" choice. The
        religious
        > > fundamentalist has a much better time of it. His/her path is defined
        in
        > the
        > > most narrow sense. It is easier to fly an airplane into the World
        Trade
        > > Centre than it is to find a way to balance one's bank accounts or
        deciding
        > > whether to go out to a restaurant or to order in a pizza.
        > >
        > > Going into the woods is an attempt to cut down on the choices. With
        the
        > > thought that with less choice the greater the chance of choosing the
        right
        > > one. But as you imply, such expedition, does not really solve much.
        What
        > > is desired is to find the woods in our urban lifestyle. And any tool
        > which
        > > facilitates this end [be it existentialism, religion or metaphysics]
        is of
        > > worth the candle.
        > >
        > > eduard
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
        > > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 3:28 PM
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism as Industrial Tao
        > >
        > > Ryan, thats rich,"a good pithing" made my day. I just returned from
        > three
        > > days
        > > in the woods. I go there to escape but then come back here to escape
        > from
        > > that.
        > > The idealism of the simple life seems to appeal to thinkers. We are
        much
        > > to
        > > needed here to go live with the bears. You notice I said needed not
        > > appreciated.
        > > Slapping neandertahls upside the head does not add to ones
        popularity. I
        > > learned
        > > a great deal in comparative anatomy so as I watch instinctive
        behaviour
        > > operant
        > > in animals I get a better fix on our progression beyond. Metaphysics
        and
        > > religion are memorised behaviors not much different from instinct.
        The
        > > spark of
        > > innovation which once fuled them is long since extinguished, yet the
        > > dreary
        > > train of thought trudges on in dim intellects. I see little chance
        of
        > > utopia
        > > with these raw materials. I also see no way back to simple
        serendipity.
        > > Bill
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
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