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eu constitution

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  • Mary Jo Malo
    Louise, I recall that some of us have discussed this in the past, and I remember reading the proposed constitution. At the time it was mired in controversial
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 2, 2005
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      Louise,

      I recall that some of us have discussed this in the past, and I
      remember reading the proposed constitution. At the time it was mired in
      controversial secular vs. religious statements as part of its 'human
      rights' agenda. What are your thoughts, or the feelings of the 'man' on
      the street regarding ratification? Will it increase or decrease
      individual freedom? We usually only get soundbytes over here. Even if I
      did substantial research, it wouldn't mean as much as your immediacy.

      Mary
    • louise
      Mary, Let me see how I can most imaginatively answer what is for me a most difficult question ... mainly because my immediate affective response to the
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 2, 2005
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        Mary,

        Let me see how I can most imaginatively answer what is for me a most
        difficult question ... mainly because my immediate affective response
        to the political entity in question puts methodical thinking at a far
        distance. By 'political entity', I mean the European Union, a huge
        conglomerate of nationalities bound together by the decisions of
        various interlocking and estranged elite groups.

        I am English, knowing pitifully little about Wales, Scotland, or
        Ireland. Ratification of the EU Constitution falls to the UK
        government, who would do so only on the twin conditions that a
        referendum were held, and the UK electors were to vote 'yes' to the
        document. Six counties of Ireland, known collectively here as Ulster,
        together with England, Wales, Scotland, and outlying islands, are
        accordingly faced with the scenario raised by your question. So I
        shall be bold enough to imagine myself an Englishwoman, speaking as
        such.

        Web research might prove the best bet for ascertaining current
        opinions of the man on the street. Neither reading a daily newspaper
        nor liaising with activist colleagues, I haven't a clue, really.

        My own thoughts, then. The collective English psyche could be
        described as NDA - Norman/Deutsche/Anglo. It is the Norman element
        in particular which favours the detailed writing down of law in order
        to safeguard freedom. The nineteenth/twentieth century conception of
        human rights seems to refer to this piece-of-paper concept of liberty
        (which in the eleventh century built castles, cathedrals, and new
        social divisions). The Anglo in me rebels at such trouble-making
        complexity. Whatever description of political freedoms we arrive at,
        the Deutsche element swings into action to enforce it, cowing the
        Anglos and ensuring the Normans are onside with whatever it takes to
        achieve that.

        There are also substantive citizen groups who may not be happy even to
        tolerate public statement of such assessment. I'm unsure about that,
        am convinced simply that if you wish to understand political
        directions, it is needful to travel as far back in time as records
        permit ... and then further still, into visionary space. Of course,
        at this juncture in history, there is no-one on earth who understands
        political directions. At least, I can't help feeling the FBI or some
        such body would have located some such personage by now if so. In the
        meantime, learning, experience, guesswork and hope, are about the size
        of it.

        Louise

        -- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <maryjomalo@y...>
        wrote:
        > Louise,
        >
        > I recall that some of us have discussed this in the past, and I
        > remember reading the proposed constitution. At the time it was mired
        in
        > controversial secular vs. religious statements as part of its 'human
        > rights' agenda. What are your thoughts, or the feelings of the 'man'
        on
        > the street regarding ratification? Will it increase or decrease
        > individual freedom? We usually only get soundbytes over here. Even
        if I
        > did substantial research, it wouldn't mean as much as your immediacy.
        >
        > Mary
      • Bob Keyes
        I think to guess Poltically in out more than 1 or 2 years tends to be chaotic. To Many Unknowns, However in the Long Term 5 million Years(Previosu) till now,
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 2, 2005
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          I think to guess Poltically in out more than 1 or 2 years tends to be
          chaotic.
          To Many Unknowns, However in the Long Term 5 million Years(Previosu) till
          now, there is a
          Trend, so unless something happens to change that we know eventually where
          we are
          going.
          Bob.. Good Post..

          -----Original Message-----
          From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of louise
          Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:46 AM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: eu constitution


          Mary,

          Let me see how I can most imaginatively answer what is for me a most
          difficult question ... mainly because my immediate affective response
          to the political entity in question puts methodical thinking at a far
          distance. By 'political entity', I mean the European Union, a huge
          conglomerate of nationalities bound together by the decisions of
          various interlocking and estranged elite groups.

          I am English, knowing pitifully little about Wales, Scotland, or
          Ireland. Ratification of the EU Constitution falls to the UK
          government, who would do so only on the twin conditions that a
          referendum were held, and the UK electors were to vote 'yes' to the
          document. Six counties of Ireland, known collectively here as Ulster,
          together with England, Wales, Scotland, and outlying islands, are
          accordingly faced with the scenario raised by your question. So I
          shall be bold enough to imagine myself an Englishwoman, speaking as
          such.

          Web research might prove the best bet for ascertaining current
          opinions of the man on the street. Neither reading a daily newspaper
          nor liaising with activist colleagues, I haven't a clue, really.

          My own thoughts, then. The collective English psyche could be
          described as NDA - Norman/Deutsche/Anglo. It is the Norman element
          in particular which favours the detailed writing down of law in order
          to safeguard freedom. The nineteenth/twentieth century conception of
          human rights seems to refer to this piece-of-paper concept of liberty
          (which in the eleventh century built castles, cathedrals, and new
          social divisions). The Anglo in me rebels at such trouble-making
          complexity. Whatever description of political freedoms we arrive at,
          the Deutsche element swings into action to enforce it, cowing the
          Anglos and ensuring the Normans are onside with whatever it takes to
          achieve that.

          There are also substantive citizen groups who may not be happy even to
          tolerate public statement of such assessment. I'm unsure about that,
          am convinced simply that if you wish to understand political
          directions, it is needful to travel as far back in time as records
          permit ... and then further still, into visionary space. Of course,
          at this juncture in history, there is no-one on earth who understands
          political directions. At least, I can't help feeling the FBI or some
          such body would have located some such personage by now if so. In the
          meantime, learning, experience, guesswork and hope, are about the size
          of it.

          Louise

          -- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <maryjomalo@y...>
          wrote:
          > Louise,
          >
          > I recall that some of us have discussed this in the past, and I
          > remember reading the proposed constitution. At the time it was mired
          in
          > controversial secular vs. religious statements as part of its 'human
          > rights' agenda. What are your thoughts, or the feelings of the 'man'
          on
          > the street regarding ratification? Will it increase or decrease
          > individual freedom? We usually only get soundbytes over here. Even
          if I
          > did substantial research, it wouldn't mean as much as your immediacy.
          >
          > Mary





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        • Aija Veldre Beldavs
          not sure if existentialism was any kind of factor, more like best known option. the Latvian Parliament ratified the new constitution, no referendum, here s one
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 3, 2005
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            not sure if existentialism was any kind of factor, more like best
            known option.
            the Latvian Parliament ratified the new constitution, no referendum,
            here's one article:
            http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/050602080807.meo2hoym

            of a 100 delegates 71 voted for ratification, the 5 against were
            socialists, others abstained.

            in Latvia there is also a gap between the leadership and the people, but
            it's rather complicated because most (as shown by the referendum to
            become part of the EU) are both for the EU and Western orientation, but
            also euroskeptic as to anglification and harsh mandatory radical change
            unfavorable and irrational for local conditions.

            the Latvian leadership has offered help to Georgia and the Ukraine and
            others who want to enter the EU - they want the EU to broaden to include
            other Eastern European countries who are not yet members, but like France
            they're concerned with loosing their identity, language, and culture. in
            any case, the single strongest factor overriding anything else is Big
            Brother Russia.

            however, in realpolitik where small countries are moved and sacrificed as
            pawns, what is the basis to be overly trustful of any Great Power's
            humanism?

            aija
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