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Re: Apologies

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  • Trinidad Cruz
    The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have learned how to water
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2005
      "The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic
      to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have
      learned how to water down his hatred, and hate men only to love them
      better afterwards…I believe that one cannot hate a man more than one
      can love him." JPS

      As do I.

      Existence responds to us with sweet selfish magnetism; pulls together
      defined spaces, endings of breaths, endings of heartbeats, endings of
      days. Randomly mottled spaces form into an oddly reflected echo; and
      we call it meaning; and cross a reverberating abyss to get there. It
      is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
      there.And we keep that as a name, until we step again, or someone
      steps where we have stepped.If I was a communist these days, that is
      what I would be, and thus be wrongly named.Freedom yells out here,
      these days, from the streets, angry and new. Tomorrows end like dreams
      before such a clean thing.

      "There are many ways of holding a man prisoner. The best is to get him
      to imprison himself" JPS

      We could be friends, but then I would mean something to you.

      Trinidad



      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
      > "All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves." I don't know
      > that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be
      > pleasing as to form. While I can deeply appreciate a construct, a
      > political ideal, a psychology, a philosophy, a scientific model, a
      > perception of meme, as much as any other art form, I don't know the
      > 'order' of it makes it better. I don't know either that I would like
      > to confine myself to living in it for sake of immaculate perception.
      > Sometimes art that is not planned is best, and perhaps that is why I
      > like the jumble of absurd. Of late I have likely been too concerned
      > that I am not clear, or cannot be--as if I didn't know that well
      > before. Rather than finding interest in old discussions here that
      > fascinated me in the past, which create possibly even artistic models
      > of matter and universe, thought, pathos, and vision, I find them
      > trite—through no real fault of the authors. Exploration is grand, and
      > the landscape is the author's to traverse, and each to find their own
      > "order" in it. I think I have read one too many posts, and made one
      > too many answers in these past months, ignoring interests which lie
      > elsewhere, and getting nowhere in exploring my ideas. In the struggle
      > of the arrow and the bow it is the bow that appears to win, but the
      > arrow that takes flight. It may not matter that it ever strike a
      > target or destination at all.
      >
      > Fad Extracted
    • Knott
      ... A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people, animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote space from different
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4, 2005
        > It
        > is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
        > there.

        A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people,
        animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote
        space from different directions, and to imagine the tracers of their
        movement, almost as if bumping into the past. It is a fleeting moment,
        but somehow a pleasant idea.

        Along a calm sea shore of sand at a particular time of year, one can
        walk at night and leave luminous tracers from the tiny coelenterates or
        plankton that have washed into the sand. Quite an astonishing effect
        that many people never pay enough attention to see.

        Lingering Perceptions
      • Siobhan
        What wonderfully personal poetry and imagination! The nature girl and poet in my personally relates to your way of observation and idea. My amateur scientist
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2005
          What wonderfully personal poetry and imagination! The nature girl and
          poet in my personally relates to your way of observation and idea. My
          amateur scientist nature says yes, but. Each of those animals and
          objects could never have passed through the 'exact' space, because
          the space itself is always changing. It appears to be the same from
          minute to minute, but it might not actually be so. It's the
          similarity-difference thing. The sand, water, air, creatures, and
          position in space are always changing, and yet afford us the
          exquisite contemplation and experience of similarity. I can see your
          moonlit beach, feel the air, see the glowing footprints, and imagine
          along with you. At least to the degree that I am able. Thank you.

          Siobhan

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
          > > It
          > > is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
          > > there.
          >
          > A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people,
          > animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote
          > space from different directions, and to imagine the tracers of
          their
          > movement, almost as if bumping into the past. It is a fleeting
          moment,
          > but somehow a pleasant idea.
          >
          > Along a calm sea shore of sand at a particular time of year, one
          can
          > walk at night and leave luminous tracers from the tiny
          coelenterates or
          > plankton that have washed into the sand. Quite an astonishing
          effect
          > that many people never pay enough attention to see.
          >
          > Lingering Perceptions
        • Bob Keyes
          Some Comments , a break from Chess. Bob... ... From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz Sent: Tuesday, May
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4, 2005
            Some Comments , a break from Chess.
            Bob...
            -----Original Message-----
            From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz
            Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:57 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Apologies


            "The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic
            to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have
            learned how to water down his hatred, and hate men only to love them
            better afterwards…I believe that one cannot hate a man more than one
            can love him." JPS

            As do I.


            [Bob Keyes] I have trouble with concepts like love and hate, I must be
            stupid. ( this just crossed my mind a possibility)




            Existence responds to us with sweet selfish magnetism; pulls together
            defined spaces, endings of breaths, endings of heartbeats, endings of
            days. Randomly mottled spaces form into an oddly reflected echo; and
            we call it meaning; and cross a reverberating abyss to get there. It
            is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
            there.And we keep that as a name, until we step again, or someone
            steps where we have stepped.If I was a communist these days, that is
            what I would be, and thus be wrongly named.Freedom yells out here,
            these days, from the streets, angry and new. Tomorrows end like dreams
            before such a clean thing.

            "There are many ways of holding a man prisoner. The best is to get him
            to imprison himself" JPS


            [Bob Keyes] Nice Poetry


            We could be friends, but then I would mean something to you.


            [Bob Keyes] I have no idea the context of this Because I usually will not
            Read Knotts Posts, limited time, cant read em all. I WILL READ and comment
            on KNOTT.


            Trinidad



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
            > "All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves." I don't know
            > that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be
            > pleasing as to form. While I can deeply appreciate a construct, a
            > political ideal, a psychology, a philosophy, a scientific model, a
            > perception of meme, as much as any other art form, I don't know the
            > 'order' of it makes it better.

            [Bob Keyes] What the hell does this Mean. Are trying to decide if you are
            happier than a frog ???




            I don't know either that I would like
            > to confine myself to living in it for sake of immaculate perception.

            [Bob Keyes] Yet you do it . (So it seems, I think you are crazy so I
            really have no idea)




            > Sometimes art that is not planned is best,

            [Bob Keyes] What kind of emotional statement is this. I bet you could not
            even give a reasonable hypothesis to this. But even if you could, that is
            all it would be. You live in Fantasy Land... How are the Rides.



            and perhaps that is why I
            > like the jumble of absurd.

            [Bob Keyes] NO, it is because you cannot understand anything. And you
            think it is a virtue. The best you can do is at least be heading like NORTH
            as opposed to SOUTHWEST. Your compass is Spinning. I am following the
            Stars...Just Getting fancy there for a Joke OK.




            Of late I have likely been too concerned
            > that I am not clear, or cannot be--as if I didn't know that well
            > before. Rather than finding interest in old discussions here that
            > fascinated me in the past, which create possibly even artistic models
            > of matter and universe, thought, pathos, and vision, I find them
            > trite—through no real fault of the authors. Exploration is grand, and
            > the landscape is the author's to traverse, and each to find their own
            > "order" in it.

            [Bob Keyes] I completely Agree with this... Go with the Flow of your
            Genetics...Of Course your Types will have no Political control cause your
            crazy religious Nuts !!! (some humor there )




            I think I have read one too many posts, nd made one
            > too many answers in these past months,

            [Bob Keyes] Your probably read porn to much, who cares, the problem is you
            post to much.... (just kidding of course)




            ignoring interests which lie
            > elsewhere, and getting nowhere in exploring my ideas.

            [Bob Keyes] What a surprise.



            In the struggle
            > of the arrow and the bow it is the bow that appears to win, but the
            > arrow that takes flight. It may not matter that it ever strike a
            > target or destination at all.
            >

            [Bob Keyes] Arrow ? Bow ? you are Insane... Thanks for the Final Proof of
            your Fuzzy Emotional Thinking.
            Bob... Comments..





            > Fad Extracted





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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Knott
            ... Siobhan, Are you one that would paint a mustache upon even artwork that you like? To me, you are perhaps much too literally translating this into your
            Message 5 of 20 , May 5, 2005
              > Each of those animals and
              > objects could never have passed through the 'exact' space, because
              > the space itself is always changing.

              Siobhan, Are you one that would paint a mustache upon even artwork
              that you like? To me, you are perhaps much too literally translating
              this into your perception of how science has helped you create a
              vision of understanding. To me, if there is matter, and even if there
              is science and universe, the way that bodies are measured is not by
              absolute placement in the ether, but more likely in their relative
              placement to one another. That is, in this particular patch of earth
              where I sit, be it a few feet higher or lower than it was some 200
              years ago, a traveler or native american or buffalo or great flock of
              geese may have been...and more like Bill's observation of change
              (which I pictured as some sort of time lapse where the engines of war
              built over time to dissapate when men and war had moved off the banks
              of the Black Sea), it is an area relative to this earth where I am
              that many thousands of years may have traced both above and below
              water, in heated and cooled climate, but always here, relative to the
              core of the earth.

              Yet, at the same time the unique space you may speak of leaves other
              more complex tracers through the galaxy, like a tail of a comet
              passing through matter and time, each body a unique trail into space.

              There are more ways to see it than to just paint on the mustache and
              shout 'aha!'

              Gollapagus Turning
            • bhvwd
              I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due to provider problems. I
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
                I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                to provider problems.
                I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                erradicate all of Islam.
                The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                Blackwater are my friends.
                I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
              • jaime.denada
                Hey, man, it s okay. Yahoo apologized for the multiple postings. J ... due ... from ... complex ... we ... more ... with ... our ... me ... to ... gone ...
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
                  Hey, man, it's okay. Yahoo apologized for the multiple postings.

                  J

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                  > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time
                  due
                  > to provider problems.
                  > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated
                  from
                  > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                  > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                  > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a
                  complex
                  > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if
                  we
                  > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                  > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                  > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                  > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a
                  more
                  > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                  > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even
                  with
                  > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                  > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                  > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within
                  our
                  > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                  > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                  > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                  > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                  > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                  > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs
                  me
                  > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US
                  to
                  > erradicate all of Islam.
                  > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                  > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have
                  gone
                  > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the
                  west.
                  > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                  > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                  > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil
                  especially
                  > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                  > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to
                  stand
                  > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                  > Blackwater are my friends.
                  > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                  > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                  > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                  > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                  >
                • Susan Schnelbach
                  The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just temporarily freaked. -
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
                    The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue
                    occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                    temporarily freaked.


                    - Susan


                    On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:

                    > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                    > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                    > to provider problems.
                    > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                    > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                    > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                    > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                    > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                    > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                    > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                    > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                    > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                    > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                    > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                    > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                    > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                    > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                    > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                    > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                    > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                    > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                    > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                    > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                    > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                    > erradicate all of Islam.
                    > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                    > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                    > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                    > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                    > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                    > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                    > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                    > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                    > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                    > Blackwater are my friends.
                    > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                    > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                    > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                    > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                    Bill, I am long ago accustomed to your style, so I hope you re not directing anything to me. I have to say that after 9-11, being a native NYer, I said much
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
                      Bill,

                      I am long ago accustomed to your style, so I hope you're not directing
                      anything to me. I have to say that after 9-11, being a native NYer, I said much the
                      same kind of thing as you have. I regret it now, and I am glad that that was
                      before being on any lists. I despise Islam, but I have a lot of sympathy with
                      those poor folks 'over there', anyway. They have a lot to be pissed off about,
                      including all of our bonehead policies, especially nowadays.

                      On the existential front, if I can put it that way, I also have a dread of
                      what Nietzsche called 'the moral world view'. I have to admit that every time I
                      was at a demonstration, including many in DC, I always had to hold back a
                      little vomit marching along with so many wankers and sanctimonious nimrods. Those
                      stupid songs and chants! The sense of inclusion that everyone else seemed to
                      feed on was like poison to me.

                      I was one of the three organizers against David Duke when he ran for State
                      Rep here in Louisiana back in the 80s. I wore black with a black leather trench
                      coat (as did my blond girlfriend) at the Baton Rouge seating. When I
                      approached Duke inside the Capitol building, he asked me whose side I was on, which got
                      a laugh from some of my friends. (Even some fellow protestors thought I was a
                      neo-nazi agent provocateur!) I had to take deep breath to say that I was with
                      the group of Californicators outside. The point being that I am hardly a PC
                      moralist -- except when things get serious, I guess.

                      Wil


                      In a message dated 3/29/07 8:42:42 PM, v.valleywestdental@... writes:


                      >
                      > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                      > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                      > to provider problems.
                      > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                      > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                      > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                      > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                      > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                      > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                      > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                      > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                      > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                      > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                      > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                      > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                      > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                      > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                      > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                      > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                      > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                      > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                      > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                      > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                      > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                      > erradicate all of Islam.
                      > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                      > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                      > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                      > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                      > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                      > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                      > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                      > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                      > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                      > Blackwater are my friends.
                      > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                      > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                      > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                      > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >




                      **************************************
                      See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Exist List Moderator
                      After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with a permit was involved in a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
                        After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit
                        system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with a
                        permit was involved in a killing and received 35 years in prison. No
                        other crimes were committed by permit holders. In fact, they found
                        permit holders were 13 percent less likely to commit any crime --
                        even speeding.

                        So, we have learned that those willing to get a permit to carry a
                        weapon are follow-the-rules types.

                        Sadly, crime is still rising in Minneapolis, especially among the new
                        immigrant population. Many of the crimes have been domestic. One
                        article implied gang and tribal affiliations from Somalia carried
                        across to America, as well. The weapon of choice: knives.

                        Knives don't kill people. People kill people.

                        The philosophical angle: bad people will kill somehow, someway, if
                        they think they can or should kill another human. I don't think any
                        philosophy, political system, or religion (especially religion) can
                        eliminate violence. But there must be a way to reduce it.

                        How does a person get so angry that killing seems logical? Is this
                        human nature? Is there nothing that can cause more people to pause
                        for an instant, look at their intended victim, and think, "Wow, this
                        is a person I'm about to harm"?

                        Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                        Habermas, Sartre, Camus, Derrida... every major post-war thinker
                        commented on killing. What makes it so easy? Why aren't we programmed
                        to resist this urge to kill?

                        Why are gun owners the safest people among us?

                        - CSW
                      • eupraxis@aol.com
                        ... Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by wanting to kill the Other. I always found that odd. W ************************************** See what s
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                          > Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                          >
                          Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the Other. I
                          always found that odd.

                          W




                          **************************************
                          See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Trinidad Cruz
                          Could be memetics and AI at work. One boom is too disconcerting for an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the big one . Two is not
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                            Could be memetics and AI at work. One "boom" is too disconcerting for
                            an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the "big
                            one". Two is not much better, but five or six sounds more like
                            ordinary life, or rock and roll. Wait'll the thing starts giggling or
                            getting gas.

                            tc

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue
                            > occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                            > temporarily freaked.
                            >
                            >
                            > - Susan
                            >
                            >
                            > On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:
                            >
                            > > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                            > > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                            > > to provider problems.
                            > > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                            > > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                            > > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                            > > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                            > > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                            > > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                            > > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                            > > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                            > > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                            > > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                            > > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                            > > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                            > > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                            > > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                            > > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                            > > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                            > > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                            > > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                            > > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                            > > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                            > > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                            > > erradicate all of Islam.
                            > > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                            > > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                            > > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                            > > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                            > > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                            > > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                            > > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                            > > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                            > > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                            > > Blackwater are my friends.
                            > > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                            > > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                            > > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                            > > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • eupraxis@aol.com
                            The group that I own (sic) was down all day yesterday. It seems that the NSA -- er, I mean yahoo was expereincing problems. WS ... From: cruzprdb@wi.rr.com To:
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                              The group that I own (sic) was down all day yesterday. It seems that
                              the NSA -- er, I mean yahoo was expereincing problems.

                              WS

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: cruzprdb@...
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 7:21 AM
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: Apologies

                              Could be memetics and AI at work. One "boom" is too
                              disconcerting for
                              an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the "big
                              one". Two is not much better, but five or six sounds more like
                              ordinary life, or rock and roll. Wait'll the thing starts giggling or
                              getting gas.

                              tc

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting
                              issue
                              > occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                              > temporarily freaked.
                              >
                              >
                              > - Susan
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:
                              >
                              > > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                              > > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                              > > to provider problems.
                              > > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                              > > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                              > > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                              > > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                              > > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if
                              we
                              > > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                              > > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                              > > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                              > > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                              > > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                              > > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even
                              with
                              > > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                              > > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                              > > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                              > > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                              > > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                              > > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                              > > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                              > > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                              > > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs
                              me
                              > > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                              > > erradicate all of Islam.
                              > > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                              > > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                              > > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the
                              west.
                              > > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                              > > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                              > > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil
                              especially
                              > > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                              > > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                              > > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                              > > Blackwater are my friends.
                              > > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                              > > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                              > > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                              > > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >






                              ________________________________________________________________________
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                              from AOL at AOL.com.
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                            • Trinidad Cruz
                              ... Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, Don t kill me! Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by wanting to kill the Other. I always
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"

                                "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                Other. I always found that odd." W

                                "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                somethin' that they just can't shake
                                some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                where no one asks any questions
                                or looks too long in your face
                                in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                Springsteen

                                What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                tc
                              • eupraxis@aol.com
                                Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister s heart when he came out as a liberal. WS ... From: cruzprdb@wi.rr.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 30 Mar
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                                  Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                  liberal.

                                  WS

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: cruzprdb@...
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                  "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"

                                  "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                  Other. I always found that odd." W

                                  "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                  somethin' that they just can't shake
                                  some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                  they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                  'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                  cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                  where no one asks any questions
                                  or looks too long in your face
                                  in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                  Springsteen

                                  What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                  tc






                                  ________________________________________________________________________
                                  AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                  from AOL at AOL.com.
                                  =0
                                • Trinidad Cruz
                                  Back in the 80 s I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I think it was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he wrote a lot of the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
                                    Back in the 80's I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I think it
                                    was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he
                                    wrote a lot of the songs for the "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" album.
                                    I think it is his best album, though some of the influence spilled
                                    over into "The River" album as well.

                                    I have four sisters. One is a teacher up here - masters in special
                                    education. One is a case worker in Ohio - children's services. One is
                                    just a fifty year old nutball in North Carolina with five kids and two
                                    ex-husbands but I absolutely adore her. The other one is in big health
                                    insurance middle management somewhere fixing to retire with a son
                                    (flight tech I think) in the Navy. When he shipped out the first time
                                    from Pensacola they all went down to send him off. Not suprisingly
                                    they are all left wingers, though the youngest one had a thing for
                                    Bush Sr. while in High School, but mostly because she hated Reagan.
                                    All their husbands and ex's are/were liberals, though the oldest one
                                    is a bit different kind - "catholic (Oneida I think) Native American"
                                    who considers Vince Lombardi the greatest American philosopher. You'll
                                    have that. They were all born in the USA.

                                    If I don't end up taking the dirt nap this year, I'm going to get set
                                    up in California. I'm burned out here and the Islands are just too
                                    small for me anymore. I can't swim like I used to anyway, no lungs. My
                                    kids (10) are all over the damn country anyway. Even one in DC. I
                                    can't avoid a sense of responsibility about the future of this place.
                                    I still see them looking at me the same way - with that "what's gonna
                                    happen next big guy" fear and excitement wide-eyed kinda expectation
                                    that ya wanna hold and reassure. It never goes away. I'll never act or
                                    write like there's no way to live with life, though I know it doesn't
                                    matter, it matters to me. Hard things have to be discussed. And people
                                    who can stand it have to live it.

                                    "don't look me in my face
                                    baby I ain't no liar, I want streets of fire"
                                    tc

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                    > liberal.
                                    >
                                    > WS
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: cruzprdb@...
                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                                    > "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                                    >
                                    > "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                    > Other. I always found that odd." W
                                    >
                                    > "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                    > somethin' that they just can't shake
                                    > some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                    > they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                    > 'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                    > cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                    > where no one asks any questions
                                    > or looks too long in your face
                                    > in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                    > Springsteen
                                    >
                                    > What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                    > tc
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________________________________________________
                                    > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                    > from AOL at AOL.com.
                                    > =0
                                    >
                                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                                    I didn t know that about Bruce. That does put a new spin on him. My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they tend to be like so many
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
                                      I didn't know that about Bruce. That does put a new spin on him.

                                      My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they
                                      tend to be like so many GOP sheep. They just can't imagine going any
                                      other way. Not all, but most. I have two sisters. The youngest is a
                                      liberal; the middle one is a rabid right-winger. Her husband, whom I
                                      like anyway, is a typical goose-stepper: if the right wing says
                                      evolution and "global warming" are verboten, then they are verboten,
                                      even if he actually thinks otherwise (which I know he does). By now,
                                      both have become like cartoon characters. No one takes them seriously.

                                      Of course, living in the deep south has taken all of the surprise out
                                      of this sort of thing. And there is no rational strategy capable of
                                      winning over THESE folks. Better to just isolate them all over again,
                                      once their short attention span gets tired of the recent rabble rousing
                                      from Rove. They used to be only a local problem, but the commercial
                                      bastardization of country music allowed the contagion to escape into
                                      the general population some years back, and the GOP realized how easy
                                      it would be to give succor to the growing and craven appetite for
                                      really awful ideas and violent fantasies. A local born-again NASCAR dad
                                      told me, with a straight face, that torturing Arabs was part of god's
                                      plan. I asked him if he realized that the cross around his neck was a
                                      torture device. "Ring any bells?" I asked him. He didn't get the
                                      reference.

                                      Praise the Lord.

                                      Yours in Christ,
                                      Wil

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: cruzprdb@...
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 7:58 AM
                                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill

                                      Back in the 80's I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I
                                      think it
                                      was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he
                                      wrote a lot of the songs for the "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" album.
                                      I think it is his best album, though some of the influence spilled
                                      over into "The River" album as well.

                                      I have four sisters. One is a teacher up here - masters in special
                                      education. One is a case worker in Ohio - children's services. One is
                                      just a fifty year old nutball in North Carolina with five kids and two
                                      ex-husbands but I absolutely adore her. The other one is in big health
                                      insurance middle management somewhere fixing to retire with a son
                                      (flight tech I think) in the Navy. When he shipped out the first time
                                      from Pensacola they all went down to send him off. Not suprisingly
                                      they are all left wingers, though the youngest one had a thing for
                                      Bush Sr. while in High School, but mostly because she hated Reagan.
                                      All their husbands and ex's are/were liberals, though the oldest one
                                      is a bit different kind - "catholic (Oneida I think) Native American"
                                      who considers Vince Lombardi the greatest American philosopher. You'll
                                      have that. They were all born in the USA.

                                      If I don't end up taking the dirt nap this year, I'm going to get set
                                      up in California. I'm burned out here and the Islands are just too
                                      small for me anymore. I can't swim like I used to anyway, no lungs. My
                                      kids (10) are all over the damn country anyway. Even one in DC. I
                                      can't avoid a sense of responsibility about the future of this place.
                                      I still see them looking at me the same way - with that "what's gonna
                                      happen next big guy" fear and excitement wide-eyed kinda expectation
                                      that ya wanna hold and reassure. It never goes away. I'll never act or
                                      write like there's no way to live with life, though I know it doesn't
                                      matter, it matters to me. Hard things have to be discussed. And people
                                      who can stand it have to live it.

                                      "don't look me in my face
                                      baby I ain't no liar, I want streets of fire"
                                      tc

                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                      > liberal.
                                      >
                                      > WS
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: cruzprdb@...
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill
                                      >
                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                                      > "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill
                                      me!"
                                      >
                                      > "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                      > Other. I always found that odd." W
                                      >
                                      > "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                      > somethin' that they just can't shake
                                      > some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                      > they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                      > 'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                      > cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                      > where no one asks any questions
                                      > or looks too long in your face
                                      > in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                      > Springsteen
                                      >
                                      > What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                      > tc
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________________
                                      > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                      free
                                      > from AOL at AOL.com.
                                      > =0
                                      >






                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                      from AOL at AOL.com.
                                      =0
                                    • Exist List Moderator
                                      ... Not that it explains anything, but I have met my share of liberal sheep, especially at the university level. They don t think -- they agree because
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
                                        On Mar 31, 2007, at 10:01, eupraxis@... wrote:

                                        > My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they
                                        > tend to be like so many GOP sheep. They just can't imagine going any
                                        > other way.

                                        Not that it explains anything, but I have met my share of "liberal"
                                        sheep, especially at the university level. They don't think -- they
                                        agree because that's the easy thing to do. They repeat what they
                                        hear, without questioning the origins of information.

                                        I find it interesting that the extremes (left/right) accuse education
                                        of dumbing down children so they are more pliable and both sides
                                        claim media bias. The reality is that studies show we self-select
                                        now, to a point that areas are becoming homogenous of one side or the
                                        other. (Both David Brooks and Molly Ivins wrote on this issue last
                                        election cycle. -- Molly was one of a kind.)

                                        Political affiliation is no evidence of intellectual curiosity. You
                                        can be ignorant and following family or regional tradition. It's
                                        almost like religion. I read one study that said you were more likely
                                        to change faith (or leave a faith) than to be a different political
                                        orientation than your family members. Makes sense because we tend to
                                        naturalize our beliefs until we cannot see any reason at all behind
                                        opposing views.

                                        My personal dislike for all things organized is probably in line with
                                        my parents -- who lived in Santa Cruz during the late 1960s. I don't
                                        trust any authority figures to be honest or accurate. When I try to
                                        imagine changing that political distrust of power, I can't because I
                                        see abuses of power everywhere I look. I've been "trained" to be
                                        skeptical.

                                        I think "liberals" and "conservatives" see what they want to see and
                                        are quick to judge the other side as misinformed and ignorant.

                                        There was a test done at UCLA to see if people with strong opinions
                                        were more or less informed on Middle East issues. Turns out, the most
                                        biased people knew the most of the history and current situations.
                                        The read a lot -- but what they read reinforced their biases. At
                                        least they read, I suppose. The "conservative" and "liberal"
                                        volunteers scored much better on factual historical tests than the
                                        "independent" volunteers. How they then interpreted the facts varied
                                        wildly.

                                        As I said, I've met ignorant people of all stripes. At the
                                        universities, I just meet more ill-informed liberals because that's
                                        the nature of educational institutions. If I were in the rural parts
                                        of Minnesota, I'd meet more wacky GOP die-hards with gun racks and
                                        ice-fishing gear.

                                        - C. S. Wyatt
                                        I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                                        that I shall be.
                                        http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                                        http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                                      • bhvwd
                                        ... a ... No ... new ... any ... can ... this ... me! ... programmed ... and I have had to draw it twice. It worked in close extremity situations I would
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
                                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                                          <existlist1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit
                                          > system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with
                                          a
                                          > permit was involved in a killing and received 35 years in prison.
                                          No
                                          > other crimes were committed by permit holders. In fact, they found
                                          > permit holders were 13 percent less likely to commit any crime --
                                          > even speeding.
                                          >
                                          > So, we have learned that those willing to get a permit to carry a
                                          > weapon are follow-the-rules types.
                                          >
                                          > Sadly, crime is still rising in Minneapolis, especially among the
                                          new
                                          > immigrant population. Many of the crimes have been domestic. One
                                          > article implied gang and tribal affiliations from Somalia carried
                                          > across to America, as well. The weapon of choice: knives.
                                          >
                                          > Knives don't kill people. People kill people.
                                          >
                                          > The philosophical angle: bad people will kill somehow, someway, if
                                          > they think they can or should kill another human. I don't think
                                          any
                                          > philosophy, political system, or religion (especially religion)
                                          can
                                          > eliminate violence. But there must be a way to reduce it.
                                          >
                                          > How does a person get so angry that killing seems logical? Is this
                                          > human nature? Is there nothing that can cause more people to pause
                                          > for an instant, look at their intended victim, and think, "Wow,
                                          this
                                          > is a person I'm about to harm"?
                                          >
                                          > Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill
                                          me!"
                                          > Habermas, Sartre, Camus, Derrida... every major post-war thinker
                                          > commented on killing. What makes it so easy? Why aren't we
                                          programmed
                                          > to resist this urge to kill?
                                          >
                                          > Why are gun owners the safest people among us?
                                          >
                                          > - CSW
                                          >Csw, Personally, I carry a knife. It is a legal carry here in Iowa
                                          and I have had to draw it twice. It worked in close extremity
                                          situations I would rather avoid.The attackers ran away rather
                                          than fight it out. Inside my own home it is a different matter. I
                                          demand a secure base and the secound admendment provides such.
                                          Learning knife skills is a bone chilling exercise while shooting
                                          paper targets is fun. I use electronic alarms and multiple locking
                                          systems and cameras that would have to be surmounted before I would
                                          be forced to the gun. I recommend Ayoob if you wish to use a firearm
                                          defense. He recommends a shotgun with `00 buck, or a 45cal auto
                                          pistol. As to the lawyers, poloiticians and gun advocates or
                                          opponents I really no longer listen to them. I consider self
                                          defense matters individual, personal and private, indeed very
                                          existential. I assure you I have no desire to kill and every one of
                                          my weapons able friends share that attitude. Backing up "Don`t tread
                                          on me" is a chilling and distasteful matter. Bill
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