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Apologies

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  • Knott
    All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves. I don t know that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be pleasing as to form.
    Message 1 of 20 , May 2, 2005
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      "All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves." I don't know
      that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be
      pleasing as to form. While I can deeply appreciate a construct, a
      political ideal, a psychology, a philosophy, a scientific model, a
      perception of meme, as much as any other art form, I don't know the
      'order' of it makes it better. I don't know either that I would like
      to confine myself to living in it for sake of immaculate perception.
      Sometimes art that is not planned is best, and perhaps that is why I
      like the jumble of absurd. Of late I have likely been too concerned
      that I am not clear, or cannot be--as if I didn't know that well
      before. Rather than finding interest in old discussions here that
      fascinated me in the past, which create possibly even artistic models
      of matter and universe, thought, pathos, and vision, I find them
      trite—through no real fault of the authors. Exploration is grand, and
      the landscape is the author's to traverse, and each to find their own
      "order" in it. I think I have read one too many posts, and made one
      too many answers in these past months, ignoring interests which lie
      elsewhere, and getting nowhere in exploring my ideas. In the struggle
      of the arrow and the bow it is the bow that appears to win, but the
      arrow that takes flight. It may not matter that it ever strike a
      target or destination at all.

      Fad Extracted
    • Trinidad Cruz
      The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have learned how to water
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2005
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        "The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic
        to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have
        learned how to water down his hatred, and hate men only to love them
        better afterwards…I believe that one cannot hate a man more than one
        can love him." JPS

        As do I.

        Existence responds to us with sweet selfish magnetism; pulls together
        defined spaces, endings of breaths, endings of heartbeats, endings of
        days. Randomly mottled spaces form into an oddly reflected echo; and
        we call it meaning; and cross a reverberating abyss to get there. It
        is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
        there.And we keep that as a name, until we step again, or someone
        steps where we have stepped.If I was a communist these days, that is
        what I would be, and thus be wrongly named.Freedom yells out here,
        these days, from the streets, angry and new. Tomorrows end like dreams
        before such a clean thing.

        "There are many ways of holding a man prisoner. The best is to get him
        to imprison himself" JPS

        We could be friends, but then I would mean something to you.

        Trinidad



        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
        > "All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves." I don't know
        > that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be
        > pleasing as to form. While I can deeply appreciate a construct, a
        > political ideal, a psychology, a philosophy, a scientific model, a
        > perception of meme, as much as any other art form, I don't know the
        > 'order' of it makes it better. I don't know either that I would like
        > to confine myself to living in it for sake of immaculate perception.
        > Sometimes art that is not planned is best, and perhaps that is why I
        > like the jumble of absurd. Of late I have likely been too concerned
        > that I am not clear, or cannot be--as if I didn't know that well
        > before. Rather than finding interest in old discussions here that
        > fascinated me in the past, which create possibly even artistic models
        > of matter and universe, thought, pathos, and vision, I find them
        > trite—through no real fault of the authors. Exploration is grand, and
        > the landscape is the author's to traverse, and each to find their own
        > "order" in it. I think I have read one too many posts, and made one
        > too many answers in these past months, ignoring interests which lie
        > elsewhere, and getting nowhere in exploring my ideas. In the struggle
        > of the arrow and the bow it is the bow that appears to win, but the
        > arrow that takes flight. It may not matter that it ever strike a
        > target or destination at all.
        >
        > Fad Extracted
      • Knott
        ... A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people, animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote space from different
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2005
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          > It
          > is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
          > there.

          A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people,
          animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote
          space from different directions, and to imagine the tracers of their
          movement, almost as if bumping into the past. It is a fleeting moment,
          but somehow a pleasant idea.

          Along a calm sea shore of sand at a particular time of year, one can
          walk at night and leave luminous tracers from the tiny coelenterates or
          plankton that have washed into the sand. Quite an astonishing effect
          that many people never pay enough attention to see.

          Lingering Perceptions
        • Siobhan
          What wonderfully personal poetry and imagination! The nature girl and poet in my personally relates to your way of observation and idea. My amateur scientist
          Message 4 of 20 , May 4, 2005
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            What wonderfully personal poetry and imagination! The nature girl and
            poet in my personally relates to your way of observation and idea. My
            amateur scientist nature says yes, but. Each of those animals and
            objects could never have passed through the 'exact' space, because
            the space itself is always changing. It appears to be the same from
            minute to minute, but it might not actually be so. It's the
            similarity-difference thing. The sand, water, air, creatures, and
            position in space are always changing, and yet afford us the
            exquisite contemplation and experience of similarity. I can see your
            moonlit beach, feel the air, see the glowing footprints, and imagine
            along with you. At least to the degree that I am able. Thank you.

            Siobhan

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
            > > It
            > > is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
            > > there.
            >
            > A favorite idea of mine is that throughout an history many people,
            > animals and objects may have passed through exactly the same remote
            > space from different directions, and to imagine the tracers of
            their
            > movement, almost as if bumping into the past. It is a fleeting
            moment,
            > but somehow a pleasant idea.
            >
            > Along a calm sea shore of sand at a particular time of year, one
            can
            > walk at night and leave luminous tracers from the tiny
            coelenterates or
            > plankton that have washed into the sand. Quite an astonishing
            effect
            > that many people never pay enough attention to see.
            >
            > Lingering Perceptions
          • Bob Keyes
            Some Comments , a break from Chess. Bob... ... From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz Sent: Tuesday, May
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4, 2005
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              Some Comments , a break from Chess.
              Bob...
              -----Original Message-----
              From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com]On
              Behalf Of Trinidad Cruz
              Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:57 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Apologies


              "The misanthrope is a man: therefore the humanist must be misanthropic
              to a certain extent. But he must be a scientist as well to have
              learned how to water down his hatred, and hate men only to love them
              better afterwards…I believe that one cannot hate a man more than one
              can love him." JPS

              As do I.


              [Bob Keyes] I have trouble with concepts like love and hate, I must be
              stupid. ( this just crossed my mind a possibility)




              Existence responds to us with sweet selfish magnetism; pulls together
              defined spaces, endings of breaths, endings of heartbeats, endings of
              days. Randomly mottled spaces form into an oddly reflected echo; and
              we call it meaning; and cross a reverberating abyss to get there. It
              is the footprint that fades, and still reminds us that a foot was
              there.And we keep that as a name, until we step again, or someone
              steps where we have stepped.If I was a communist these days, that is
              what I would be, and thus be wrongly named.Freedom yells out here,
              these days, from the streets, angry and new. Tomorrows end like dreams
              before such a clean thing.

              "There are many ways of holding a man prisoner. The best is to get him
              to imprison himself" JPS


              [Bob Keyes] Nice Poetry


              We could be friends, but then I would mean something to you.


              [Bob Keyes] I have no idea the context of this Because I usually will not
              Read Knotts Posts, limited time, cant read em all. I WILL READ and comment
              on KNOTT.


              Trinidad



              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@l...> wrote:
              > "All we can hope to do is put some order into ourselves." I don't know
              > that I see order as necessary, except, perhaps, that it may be
              > pleasing as to form. While I can deeply appreciate a construct, a
              > political ideal, a psychology, a philosophy, a scientific model, a
              > perception of meme, as much as any other art form, I don't know the
              > 'order' of it makes it better.

              [Bob Keyes] What the hell does this Mean. Are trying to decide if you are
              happier than a frog ???




              I don't know either that I would like
              > to confine myself to living in it for sake of immaculate perception.

              [Bob Keyes] Yet you do it . (So it seems, I think you are crazy so I
              really have no idea)




              > Sometimes art that is not planned is best,

              [Bob Keyes] What kind of emotional statement is this. I bet you could not
              even give a reasonable hypothesis to this. But even if you could, that is
              all it would be. You live in Fantasy Land... How are the Rides.



              and perhaps that is why I
              > like the jumble of absurd.

              [Bob Keyes] NO, it is because you cannot understand anything. And you
              think it is a virtue. The best you can do is at least be heading like NORTH
              as opposed to SOUTHWEST. Your compass is Spinning. I am following the
              Stars...Just Getting fancy there for a Joke OK.




              Of late I have likely been too concerned
              > that I am not clear, or cannot be--as if I didn't know that well
              > before. Rather than finding interest in old discussions here that
              > fascinated me in the past, which create possibly even artistic models
              > of matter and universe, thought, pathos, and vision, I find them
              > trite—through no real fault of the authors. Exploration is grand, and
              > the landscape is the author's to traverse, and each to find their own
              > "order" in it.

              [Bob Keyes] I completely Agree with this... Go with the Flow of your
              Genetics...Of Course your Types will have no Political control cause your
              crazy religious Nuts !!! (some humor there )




              I think I have read one too many posts, nd made one
              > too many answers in these past months,

              [Bob Keyes] Your probably read porn to much, who cares, the problem is you
              post to much.... (just kidding of course)




              ignoring interests which lie
              > elsewhere, and getting nowhere in exploring my ideas.

              [Bob Keyes] What a surprise.



              In the struggle
              > of the arrow and the bow it is the bow that appears to win, but the
              > arrow that takes flight. It may not matter that it ever strike a
              > target or destination at all.
              >

              [Bob Keyes] Arrow ? Bow ? you are Insane... Thanks for the Final Proof of
              your Fuzzy Emotional Thinking.
              Bob... Comments..





              > Fad Extracted





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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Knott
              ... Siobhan, Are you one that would paint a mustache upon even artwork that you like? To me, you are perhaps much too literally translating this into your
              Message 6 of 20 , May 5, 2005
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                > Each of those animals and
                > objects could never have passed through the 'exact' space, because
                > the space itself is always changing.

                Siobhan, Are you one that would paint a mustache upon even artwork
                that you like? To me, you are perhaps much too literally translating
                this into your perception of how science has helped you create a
                vision of understanding. To me, if there is matter, and even if there
                is science and universe, the way that bodies are measured is not by
                absolute placement in the ether, but more likely in their relative
                placement to one another. That is, in this particular patch of earth
                where I sit, be it a few feet higher or lower than it was some 200
                years ago, a traveler or native american or buffalo or great flock of
                geese may have been...and more like Bill's observation of change
                (which I pictured as some sort of time lapse where the engines of war
                built over time to dissapate when men and war had moved off the banks
                of the Black Sea), it is an area relative to this earth where I am
                that many thousands of years may have traced both above and below
                water, in heated and cooled climate, but always here, relative to the
                core of the earth.

                Yet, at the same time the unique space you may speak of leaves other
                more complex tracers through the galaxy, like a tail of a comet
                passing through matter and time, each body a unique trail into space.

                There are more ways to see it than to just paint on the mustache and
                shout 'aha!'

                Gollapagus Turning
              • bhvwd
                I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due to provider problems. I
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                  I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                  sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                  to provider problems.
                  I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                  any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                  know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                  Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                  and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                  were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                  diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                  genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                  valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                  general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                  destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                  the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                  countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                  Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                  control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                  bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                  control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                  many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                  controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                  continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                  we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                  erradicate all of Islam.
                  The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                  terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                  to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                  Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                  retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                  bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                  if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                  wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                  by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                  Blackwater are my friends.
                  I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                  outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                  sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                  upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                • jaime.denada
                  Hey, man, it s okay. Yahoo apologized for the multiple postings. J ... due ... from ... complex ... we ... more ... with ... our ... me ... to ... gone ...
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                    Hey, man, it's okay. Yahoo apologized for the multiple postings.

                    J

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                    > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time
                    due
                    > to provider problems.
                    > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated
                    from
                    > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                    > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                    > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a
                    complex
                    > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if
                    we
                    > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                    > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                    > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                    > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a
                    more
                    > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                    > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even
                    with
                    > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                    > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                    > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within
                    our
                    > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                    > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                    > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                    > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                    > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                    > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs
                    me
                    > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US
                    to
                    > erradicate all of Islam.
                    > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                    > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have
                    gone
                    > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the
                    west.
                    > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                    > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                    > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil
                    especially
                    > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                    > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to
                    stand
                    > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                    > Blackwater are my friends.
                    > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                    > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                    > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                    > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                    >
                  • Susan Schnelbach
                    The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just temporarily freaked. -
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                      The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue
                      occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                      temporarily freaked.


                      - Susan


                      On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:

                      > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                      > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                      > to provider problems.
                      > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                      > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                      > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                      > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                      > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                      > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                      > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                      > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                      > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                      > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                      > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                      > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                      > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                      > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                      > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                      > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                      > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                      > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                      > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                      > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                      > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                      > erradicate all of Islam.
                      > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                      > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                      > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                      > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                      > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                      > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                      > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                      > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                      > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                      > Blackwater are my friends.
                      > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                      > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                      > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                      > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • eupraxis@aol.com
                      Bill, I am long ago accustomed to your style, so I hope you re not directing anything to me. I have to say that after 9-11, being a native NYer, I said much
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                        Bill,

                        I am long ago accustomed to your style, so I hope you're not directing
                        anything to me. I have to say that after 9-11, being a native NYer, I said much the
                        same kind of thing as you have. I regret it now, and I am glad that that was
                        before being on any lists. I despise Islam, but I have a lot of sympathy with
                        those poor folks 'over there', anyway. They have a lot to be pissed off about,
                        including all of our bonehead policies, especially nowadays.

                        On the existential front, if I can put it that way, I also have a dread of
                        what Nietzsche called 'the moral world view'. I have to admit that every time I
                        was at a demonstration, including many in DC, I always had to hold back a
                        little vomit marching along with so many wankers and sanctimonious nimrods. Those
                        stupid songs and chants! The sense of inclusion that everyone else seemed to
                        feed on was like poison to me.

                        I was one of the three organizers against David Duke when he ran for State
                        Rep here in Louisiana back in the 80s. I wore black with a black leather trench
                        coat (as did my blond girlfriend) at the Baton Rouge seating. When I
                        approached Duke inside the Capitol building, he asked me whose side I was on, which got
                        a laugh from some of my friends. (Even some fellow protestors thought I was a
                        neo-nazi agent provocateur!) I had to take deep breath to say that I was with
                        the group of Californicators outside. The point being that I am hardly a PC
                        moralist -- except when things get serious, I guess.

                        Wil


                        In a message dated 3/29/07 8:42:42 PM, v.valleywestdental@... writes:


                        >
                        > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                        > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                        > to provider problems.
                        > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                        > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                        > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                        > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                        > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                        > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                        > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                        > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                        > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                        > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                        > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                        > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                        > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                        > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                        > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                        > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                        > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                        > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                        > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                        > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                        > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                        > erradicate all of Islam.
                        > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                        > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                        > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                        > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                        > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                        > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                        > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                        > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                        > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                        > Blackwater are my friends.
                        > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                        > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                        > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                        > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        **************************************
                        See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Exist List Moderator
                        After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with a permit was involved in a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                          After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit
                          system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with a
                          permit was involved in a killing and received 35 years in prison. No
                          other crimes were committed by permit holders. In fact, they found
                          permit holders were 13 percent less likely to commit any crime --
                          even speeding.

                          So, we have learned that those willing to get a permit to carry a
                          weapon are follow-the-rules types.

                          Sadly, crime is still rising in Minneapolis, especially among the new
                          immigrant population. Many of the crimes have been domestic. One
                          article implied gang and tribal affiliations from Somalia carried
                          across to America, as well. The weapon of choice: knives.

                          Knives don't kill people. People kill people.

                          The philosophical angle: bad people will kill somehow, someway, if
                          they think they can or should kill another human. I don't think any
                          philosophy, political system, or religion (especially religion) can
                          eliminate violence. But there must be a way to reduce it.

                          How does a person get so angry that killing seems logical? Is this
                          human nature? Is there nothing that can cause more people to pause
                          for an instant, look at their intended victim, and think, "Wow, this
                          is a person I'm about to harm"?

                          Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                          Habermas, Sartre, Camus, Derrida... every major post-war thinker
                          commented on killing. What makes it so easy? Why aren't we programmed
                          to resist this urge to kill?

                          Why are gun owners the safest people among us?

                          - CSW
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          ... Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by wanting to kill the Other. I always found that odd. W ************************************** See what s
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
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                            > Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                            >
                            Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the Other. I
                            always found that odd.

                            W




                            **************************************
                            See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Trinidad Cruz
                            Could be memetics and AI at work. One boom is too disconcerting for an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the big one . Two is not
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Could be memetics and AI at work. One "boom" is too disconcerting for
                              an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the "big
                              one". Two is not much better, but five or six sounds more like
                              ordinary life, or rock and roll. Wait'll the thing starts giggling or
                              getting gas.

                              tc

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting issue
                              > occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                              > temporarily freaked.
                              >
                              >
                              > - Susan
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:
                              >
                              > > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                              > > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                              > > to provider problems.
                              > > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                              > > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                              > > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                              > > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                              > > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if we
                              > > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                              > > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                              > > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                              > > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                              > > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                              > > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even with
                              > > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                              > > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                              > > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                              > > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                              > > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                              > > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                              > > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                              > > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                              > > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs me
                              > > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                              > > erradicate all of Islam.
                              > > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                              > > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                              > > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the west.
                              > > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                              > > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                              > > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil especially
                              > > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                              > > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                              > > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                              > > Blackwater are my friends.
                              > > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                              > > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                              > > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                              > > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • eupraxis@aol.com
                              The group that I own (sic) was down all day yesterday. It seems that the NSA -- er, I mean yahoo was expereincing problems. WS ... From: cruzprdb@wi.rr.com To:
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The group that I own (sic) was down all day yesterday. It seems that
                                the NSA -- er, I mean yahoo was expereincing problems.

                                WS

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: cruzprdb@...
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 7:21 AM
                                Subject: [existlist] Re: Apologies

                                Could be memetics and AI at work. One "boom" is too
                                disconcerting for
                                an infant silicone intelligence to handle. You know, could be the "big
                                one". Two is not much better, but five or six sounds more like
                                ordinary life, or rock and roll. Wait'll the thing starts giggling or
                                getting gas.

                                tc

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The multiple posts was a Yahoo thing. The same multiple posting
                                issue
                                > occurred with someone unsubscribing around that time. Yahoo just
                                > temporarily freaked.
                                >
                                >
                                > - Susan
                                >
                                >
                                > On Mar 29, 2007, at 8:42 PM, bhvwd wrote:
                                >
                                > > I am sorry my post repeated endlessly, I do not know why. I only
                                > > sent it once. I recently installed Vista after a long down time due
                                > > to provider problems.
                                > > I realise the whole concept of human progress can be debated from
                                > > any and all points of view. I think some of us are progressing but
                                > > know others see the situation from entirely different perspectives.
                                > > Recent archeological finds on crete and santorini suggest a complex
                                > > and advanced civilisation existed before the greeks. Certainly if
                                we
                                > > were that advanced at that time our present complexity would seem
                                > > diminished. Fits and starts seem to mark the measure with
                                > > genocidial episodes . I view the educationally advanced as more
                                > > valuable than the static masses. Trinidad would probably see a more
                                > > general equality of a more idealistic nature. The huge forces that
                                > > destroy civilisations have usually been of natural causes. Even
                                with
                                > > the huge forces let loose on Germany and Japan in WW2 both
                                > > countries populations survived. In contrast only a few of the
                                > > Minoans escaped to egypt. Overpopulation lies somewhat within our
                                > > control. The Chinese have reduced their numbers. I know it was a
                                > > bloody business and was much more that women taking their birth
                                > > control pills. The Romans slaughtered the Galls but incorporated
                                > > many into the empire. I know we will not wipe out the muslims but
                                > > controling their expansion seems necessary to insure the
                                > > continuance of the western world. A scientist acquantance informs
                                me
                                > > we have enough binary chemical weapons stored in the western US to
                                > > erradicate all of Islam.
                                > > The warrior cult has come to a new situation in the world of
                                > > terrorism. A former IRA member told me the Irish bombers have gone
                                > > to the mid east and are working for the mercinary armies of the
                                west.
                                > > Ireland is all but free of these soldiers of fortune and many are
                                > > retiring in sunny places as wealthy men. Who is doing the sectarian
                                > > bombing in Iraque? The genocide seems beyond good or evil
                                especially
                                > > if you think killers should be punished. I would like to retire a
                                > > wealthy man but do not want blood on my hands. Is it wrong to stand
                                > > by while others kill your enemies ? By that thinking Chaney and
                                > > Blackwater are my friends.
                                > > I must agree with Trinidad that the complexity of modern situation
                                > > outstrips any single minds comprehension, let alone change. I am
                                > > sorry we have to think about such things and am sorry that they
                                > > upset me. I am sorry if I have upset you. Bill
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >






                                ________________________________________________________________________
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                                from AOL at AOL.com.
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                              • Trinidad Cruz
                                ... Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, Don t kill me! Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by wanting to kill the Other. I always
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
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                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                  "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"

                                  "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                  Other. I always found that odd." W

                                  "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                  somethin' that they just can't shake
                                  some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                  they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                  'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                  cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                  where no one asks any questions
                                  or looks too long in your face
                                  in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                  Springsteen

                                  What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                  tc
                                • eupraxis@aol.com
                                  Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister s heart when he came out as a liberal. WS ... From: cruzprdb@wi.rr.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 30 Mar
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                    liberal.

                                    WS

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: cruzprdb@...
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                    Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                    "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"

                                    "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                    Other. I always found that odd." W

                                    "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                    somethin' that they just can't shake
                                    some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                    they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                    'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                    cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                    where no one asks any questions
                                    or looks too long in your face
                                    in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                    Springsteen

                                    What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                    tc






                                    ________________________________________________________________________
                                    AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                    from AOL at AOL.com.
                                    =0
                                  • Trinidad Cruz
                                    Back in the 80 s I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I think it was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he wrote a lot of the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
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                                      Back in the 80's I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I think it
                                      was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he
                                      wrote a lot of the songs for the "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" album.
                                      I think it is his best album, though some of the influence spilled
                                      over into "The River" album as well.

                                      I have four sisters. One is a teacher up here - masters in special
                                      education. One is a case worker in Ohio - children's services. One is
                                      just a fifty year old nutball in North Carolina with five kids and two
                                      ex-husbands but I absolutely adore her. The other one is in big health
                                      insurance middle management somewhere fixing to retire with a son
                                      (flight tech I think) in the Navy. When he shipped out the first time
                                      from Pensacola they all went down to send him off. Not suprisingly
                                      they are all left wingers, though the youngest one had a thing for
                                      Bush Sr. while in High School, but mostly because she hated Reagan.
                                      All their husbands and ex's are/were liberals, though the oldest one
                                      is a bit different kind - "catholic (Oneida I think) Native American"
                                      who considers Vince Lombardi the greatest American philosopher. You'll
                                      have that. They were all born in the USA.

                                      If I don't end up taking the dirt nap this year, I'm going to get set
                                      up in California. I'm burned out here and the Islands are just too
                                      small for me anymore. I can't swim like I used to anyway, no lungs. My
                                      kids (10) are all over the damn country anyway. Even one in DC. I
                                      can't avoid a sense of responsibility about the future of this place.
                                      I still see them looking at me the same way - with that "what's gonna
                                      happen next big guy" fear and excitement wide-eyed kinda expectation
                                      that ya wanna hold and reassure. It never goes away. I'll never act or
                                      write like there's no way to live with life, though I know it doesn't
                                      matter, it matters to me. Hard things have to be discussed. And people
                                      who can stand it have to live it.

                                      "don't look me in my face
                                      baby I ain't no liar, I want streets of fire"
                                      tc

                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                      > liberal.
                                      >
                                      > WS
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: cruzprdb@...
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill
                                      >
                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                                      > "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill me!"
                                      >
                                      > "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                      > Other. I always found that odd." W
                                      >
                                      > "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                      > somethin' that they just can't shake
                                      > some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                      > they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                      > 'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                      > cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                      > where no one asks any questions
                                      > or looks too long in your face
                                      > in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                      > Springsteen
                                      >
                                      > What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                      > tc
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________________________________________________
                                      > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                      > from AOL at AOL.com.
                                      > =0
                                      >
                                    • eupraxis@aol.com
                                      I didn t know that about Bruce. That does put a new spin on him. My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they tend to be like so many
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
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                                        I didn't know that about Bruce. That does put a new spin on him.

                                        My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they
                                        tend to be like so many GOP sheep. They just can't imagine going any
                                        other way. Not all, but most. I have two sisters. The youngest is a
                                        liberal; the middle one is a rabid right-winger. Her husband, whom I
                                        like anyway, is a typical goose-stepper: if the right wing says
                                        evolution and "global warming" are verboten, then they are verboten,
                                        even if he actually thinks otherwise (which I know he does). By now,
                                        both have become like cartoon characters. No one takes them seriously.

                                        Of course, living in the deep south has taken all of the surprise out
                                        of this sort of thing. And there is no rational strategy capable of
                                        winning over THESE folks. Better to just isolate them all over again,
                                        once their short attention span gets tired of the recent rabble rousing
                                        from Rove. They used to be only a local problem, but the commercial
                                        bastardization of country music allowed the contagion to escape into
                                        the general population some years back, and the GOP realized how easy
                                        it would be to give succor to the growing and craven appetite for
                                        really awful ideas and violent fantasies. A local born-again NASCAR dad
                                        told me, with a straight face, that torturing Arabs was part of god's
                                        plan. I asked him if he realized that the cross around his neck was a
                                        torture device. "Ring any bells?" I asked him. He didn't get the
                                        reference.

                                        Praise the Lord.

                                        Yours in Christ,
                                        Wil

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: cruzprdb@...
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 7:58 AM
                                        Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill

                                        Back in the 80's I read a lot of material on Springsteen. I
                                        think it
                                        was Dave Marsh who related that Springsteen was into Levinas when he
                                        wrote a lot of the songs for the "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" album.
                                        I think it is his best album, though some of the influence spilled
                                        over into "The River" album as well.

                                        I have four sisters. One is a teacher up here - masters in special
                                        education. One is a case worker in Ohio - children's services. One is
                                        just a fifty year old nutball in North Carolina with five kids and two
                                        ex-husbands but I absolutely adore her. The other one is in big health
                                        insurance middle management somewhere fixing to retire with a son
                                        (flight tech I think) in the Navy. When he shipped out the first time
                                        from Pensacola they all went down to send him off. Not suprisingly
                                        they are all left wingers, though the youngest one had a thing for
                                        Bush Sr. while in High School, but mostly because she hated Reagan.
                                        All their husbands and ex's are/were liberals, though the oldest one
                                        is a bit different kind - "catholic (Oneida I think) Native American"
                                        who considers Vince Lombardi the greatest American philosopher. You'll
                                        have that. They were all born in the USA.

                                        If I don't end up taking the dirt nap this year, I'm going to get set
                                        up in California. I'm burned out here and the Islands are just too
                                        small for me anymore. I can't swim like I used to anyway, no lungs. My
                                        kids (10) are all over the damn country anyway. Even one in DC. I
                                        can't avoid a sense of responsibility about the future of this place.
                                        I still see them looking at me the same way - with that "what's gonna
                                        happen next big guy" fear and excitement wide-eyed kinda expectation
                                        that ya wanna hold and reassure. It never goes away. I'll never act or
                                        write like there's no way to live with life, though I know it doesn't
                                        matter, it matters to me. Hard things have to be discussed. And people
                                        who can stand it have to live it.

                                        "don't look me in my face
                                        baby I ain't no liar, I want streets of fire"
                                        tc

                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Smart guy. Broke my neo-fascist sister's heart when he came out as a
                                        > liberal.
                                        >
                                        > WS
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: cruzprdb@...
                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:02 AM
                                        > Subject: [existlist] Re: Thought of Bill
                                        >
                                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                                        > "Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill
                                        me!"
                                        >
                                        > "Actually, as I remember it, Levinas begins by 'wanting' to kill the
                                        > Other. I always found that odd." W
                                        >
                                        > "everybody's got a secret sonny
                                        > somethin' that they just can't shake
                                        > some folks spend their whole tryin' t' keep it
                                        > they carry it with 'em every step that they take
                                        > 'til someday, they just cut it loose
                                        > cut it loose or let it drag 'em down
                                        > where no one asks any questions
                                        > or looks too long in your face
                                        > in the darkness on the edge of town"
                                        > Springsteen
                                        >
                                        > What d'ya think Wil? He reads a lot?
                                        > tc
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________________
                                        > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                        free
                                        > from AOL at AOL.com.
                                        > =0
                                        >






                                        ________________________________________________________________________
                                        AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
                                        from AOL at AOL.com.
                                        =0
                                      • Exist List Moderator
                                        ... Not that it explains anything, but I have met my share of liberal sheep, especially at the university level. They don t think -- they agree because
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 31, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Mar 31, 2007, at 10:01, eupraxis@... wrote:

                                          > My extended family in NY is fairly big, and I like them all, but they
                                          > tend to be like so many GOP sheep. They just can't imagine going any
                                          > other way.

                                          Not that it explains anything, but I have met my share of "liberal"
                                          sheep, especially at the university level. They don't think -- they
                                          agree because that's the easy thing to do. They repeat what they
                                          hear, without questioning the origins of information.

                                          I find it interesting that the extremes (left/right) accuse education
                                          of dumbing down children so they are more pliable and both sides
                                          claim media bias. The reality is that studies show we self-select
                                          now, to a point that areas are becoming homogenous of one side or the
                                          other. (Both David Brooks and Molly Ivins wrote on this issue last
                                          election cycle. -- Molly was one of a kind.)

                                          Political affiliation is no evidence of intellectual curiosity. You
                                          can be ignorant and following family or regional tradition. It's
                                          almost like religion. I read one study that said you were more likely
                                          to change faith (or leave a faith) than to be a different political
                                          orientation than your family members. Makes sense because we tend to
                                          naturalize our beliefs until we cannot see any reason at all behind
                                          opposing views.

                                          My personal dislike for all things organized is probably in line with
                                          my parents -- who lived in Santa Cruz during the late 1960s. I don't
                                          trust any authority figures to be honest or accurate. When I try to
                                          imagine changing that political distrust of power, I can't because I
                                          see abuses of power everywhere I look. I've been "trained" to be
                                          skeptical.

                                          I think "liberals" and "conservatives" see what they want to see and
                                          are quick to judge the other side as misinformed and ignorant.

                                          There was a test done at UCLA to see if people with strong opinions
                                          were more or less informed on Middle East issues. Turns out, the most
                                          biased people knew the most of the history and current situations.
                                          The read a lot -- but what they read reinforced their biases. At
                                          least they read, I suppose. The "conservative" and "liberal"
                                          volunteers scored much better on factual historical tests than the
                                          "independent" volunteers. How they then interpreted the facts varied
                                          wildly.

                                          As I said, I've met ignorant people of all stripes. At the
                                          universities, I just meet more ill-informed liberals because that's
                                          the nature of educational institutions. If I were in the rural parts
                                          of Minnesota, I'd meet more wacky GOP die-hards with gun racks and
                                          ice-fishing gear.

                                          - C. S. Wyatt
                                          I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                                          that I shall be.
                                          http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                                          http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                                        • bhvwd
                                          ... a ... No ... new ... any ... can ... this ... me! ... programmed ... and I have had to draw it twice. It worked in close extremity situations I would
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                                            <existlist1@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > After five years of an open carry and concealed weapons permit
                                            > system, Minnesota has found... no change in crime. One person with
                                            a
                                            > permit was involved in a killing and received 35 years in prison.
                                            No
                                            > other crimes were committed by permit holders. In fact, they found
                                            > permit holders were 13 percent less likely to commit any crime --
                                            > even speeding.
                                            >
                                            > So, we have learned that those willing to get a permit to carry a
                                            > weapon are follow-the-rules types.
                                            >
                                            > Sadly, crime is still rising in Minneapolis, especially among the
                                            new
                                            > immigrant population. Many of the crimes have been domestic. One
                                            > article implied gang and tribal affiliations from Somalia carried
                                            > across to America, as well. The weapon of choice: knives.
                                            >
                                            > Knives don't kill people. People kill people.
                                            >
                                            > The philosophical angle: bad people will kill somehow, someway, if
                                            > they think they can or should kill another human. I don't think
                                            any
                                            > philosophy, political system, or religion (especially religion)
                                            can
                                            > eliminate violence. But there must be a way to reduce it.
                                            >
                                            > How does a person get so angry that killing seems logical? Is this
                                            > human nature? Is there nothing that can cause more people to pause
                                            > for an instant, look at their intended victim, and think, "Wow,
                                            this
                                            > is a person I'm about to harm"?
                                            >
                                            > Levinas thought we look at The Other and see a plea, "Don't kill
                                            me!"
                                            > Habermas, Sartre, Camus, Derrida... every major post-war thinker
                                            > commented on killing. What makes it so easy? Why aren't we
                                            programmed
                                            > to resist this urge to kill?
                                            >
                                            > Why are gun owners the safest people among us?
                                            >
                                            > - CSW
                                            >Csw, Personally, I carry a knife. It is a legal carry here in Iowa
                                            and I have had to draw it twice. It worked in close extremity
                                            situations I would rather avoid.The attackers ran away rather
                                            than fight it out. Inside my own home it is a different matter. I
                                            demand a secure base and the secound admendment provides such.
                                            Learning knife skills is a bone chilling exercise while shooting
                                            paper targets is fun. I use electronic alarms and multiple locking
                                            systems and cameras that would have to be surmounted before I would
                                            be forced to the gun. I recommend Ayoob if you wish to use a firearm
                                            defense. He recommends a shotgun with `00 buck, or a 45cal auto
                                            pistol. As to the lawyers, poloiticians and gun advocates or
                                            opponents I really no longer listen to them. I consider self
                                            defense matters individual, personal and private, indeed very
                                            existential. I assure you I have no desire to kill and every one of
                                            my weapons able friends share that attitude. Backing up "Don`t tread
                                            on me" is a chilling and distasteful matter. Bill
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