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Re: Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question

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  • Tom
    It s ok - you ve got all of it. ... From: Charles Vermont To: tjajones@msn.com Cc: Existentialism List Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31 Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi,
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1 12:17 PM
      It's ok - you've got all of it.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Charles Vermont
      To: tjajones@...
      Cc: Existentialism List
      Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31
      Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question


      Tom,

      Please could you resend this since I seem to only have the first part of it.

      Thanks

      Charles Vermont

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tom <tjajones@...>
      To: existlist@onelist.com <existlist@onelist.com>
      Date: 30 July 1999 20:06
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question


      Charles Vermont wrote :-
      First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of assumptions. He is assuming:

      My intention was to contrive the situation to eradicate the possibility of uncertainty.

      The following are certainties and hence definite occurances. As sure as the sun will rise the next morning if you like.

      a.. The train will plummet into the canyon unless he does something - the driver of the train may become aware of the situation before the daughter reaches the button and save the train himself/herself.
      b.. His daughter will respond to his coercion - she may be young, but perhaps she is old enough to know when her father is acting against her own interests.
      c.. His daughter has time to reach the button before the train plummets into the canyon
      d.. He is too large to reach the button
      e.. He cannot reach the button using a tool
      f.. There is no one else around who can help him to push the button - a human chain at this point might help
      g.. That the passengers and crew on the train have not chosen to take a 'death trip'
    • Yana Youhana
      My dear friends, I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me is that every one seems to think the little girl has no brains!!!, to be quite honest
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 2 4:57 PM
        My dear friends,

        I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me
        is that every one seems to think the little girl has
        no brains!!!, to be quite honest with you all, may be
        the "little girl" just tells her dad "to hell with you
        and all the people on the train, I am out of here" !?
        lets start from begining now;

        @ After the "little girl" does that what does her
        father do?

        @ do the people on the train know she has made that
        decision? :)

        @ How fast is the train going anyway?

        @ by the time the father grabs his "little girl",
        and tells her "you have moral obligation to kill yourself
        for those people, and I want you to do so" the train has
        reached the bottom of the canyon!

        @ if the train has sfely reached the original destination,
        the people will go back to that point looking for the "little
        girl" to ask her why she did not want to sacrifice herself for
        them.

        @ the father shoots his daughter and then himself so he
        wouldn't live with the guilt for the rest of his life.



        -
        Yana

        >From: "Tom" <tjajones@...>
        >Reply-To: existlist@onelist.com
        >To: <existlist@onelist.com>
        >Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
        >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:17:48 +0100
        >
        >It's ok - you've got all of it.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Charles Vermont
        > To: tjajones@...
        > Cc: Existentialism List
        > Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31
        > Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
        >
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > Please could you resend this since I seem to only have the first part of
        >it.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Charles Vermont
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Tom <tjajones@...>
        > To: existlist@onelist.com <existlist@onelist.com>
        > Date: 30 July 1999 20:06
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
        >
        >
        > Charles Vermont wrote :-
        > First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of
        >assumptions. He is assuming:
        >
        > My intention was to contrive the situation to eradicate the possibility
        >of uncertainty.
        >
        > The following are certainties and hence definite occurances. As sure as
        >the sun will rise the next morning if you like.
        >
        > a.. The train will plummet into the canyon unless he does something
        >- the driver of the train may become aware of the situation before the
        >daughter reaches the button and save the train himself/herself.
        > b.. His daughter will respond to his coercion - she may be young,
        >but perhaps she is old enough to know when her father is acting against her
        >own interests.
        > c.. His daughter has time to reach the button before the train
        >plummets into the canyon
        > d.. He is too large to reach the button
        > e.. He cannot reach the button using a tool
        > f.. There is no one else around who can help him to push the button
        >- a human chain at this point might help
        > g.. That the passengers and crew on the train have not chosen to
        >take a 'death trip'
        >
      • Tom
        ... OK, from now on, the little girl is three year old with no amount of precocious development. This is the idea in my head that I had when I thought of the
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 5 10:33 AM
          > I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me
          > is that every one seems to think the little girl has
          > no brains!!!, to be quite honest with you all, may be
          > the "little girl" just tells her dad "to hell with you
          > and all the people on the train, I am out of here" !?
          > lets start from begining now;

          OK, from now on, the little girl is three year old with no amount of
          precocious development. This is the idea in my head that I had when I
          thought of the situation and should have made it more clear. She's just a
          tiny kid - knows nothing and will most likely do anything her father tells
          her.

          > @ After the "little girl" does that what does her
          > father do?

          We haven't reached that point in time. To my mind, it has no bearing on the
          ethical dilemma. If you think it does then please elaborate. How do you
          think he should behave. You're assessing the choices after all.

          > @ do the people on the train know she has made that
          > decision? :)

          The father could tell them if he so wished. Let's say that they wouldn't
          see what she did however. What relevance does this have anyway?

          > @ How fast is the train going anyway?

          Irrelevant. See most recent post in response to Charles

          > @ by the time the father grabs his "little girl",
          > and tells her "you have moral obligation to kill yourself
          > for those people, and I want you to do so" the train has
          > reached the bottom of the canyon!

          Irrelevant. The situation is contrived to allow plenty of time for the
          little girl to follow his instuctions.

          > @ if the train has sfely reached the original destination,
          > the people will go back to that point looking for the "little
          > girl" to ask her why she did not want to sacrifice herself for
          > them.

          They'll be dead if she didn't sacrifice herself. She'll be dead if she did.
          The train still goes into the canyon if the little girl presses the button
          but the passengers are saved. I didn't say how this happened - maybe the
          train detaches itself from the carriages that will stop in plenty of time.
          It won't reach its destination either way.

          > @ the father shoots his daughter and then himself so he
          > wouldn't live with the guilt for the rest of his life.

          That is a possible decision that he could make.

          Tom
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