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The pursuit of happiness and G~d

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  • Jim Aiden
    This is not directed to anyone in particular just to further clarify some things. I get a bit queasy when people associate words like ESP or UFO to
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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      This is not directed to anyone in particular just to further
      clarify some things. I get a bit queasy when people associate words
      like 'ESP' or 'UFO' to something I am saying, or imply that I am
      suggesting life is an illusion. What physicality is, I cannot
      determine, but as I recently mentioned to someone else, I acknowledge
      it's existence the moment I blink. So since I seemed to lack
      eloquence....I'll restate in a different way.

      "The pursuit of happiness" from the perspective of "If I have food,
      shelter, water, health and loving companionship and everything else is
      gravy" (i.e Maslow's Heir. of Needs), is an authentic argument. The
      "pursuit of happiness" from the perspective I require external events
      aside from those basics, is just another society's example of
      mysticism and probably the sign of a psychosis in an individual. There
      is nothing wrong with pursuing dreams. Only if once you do reach
      them, one believes they are a "superior" individual. Or that if you
      don't reach them, one believes they are weak and cannot cope.
      Superiority can be measured on an enormous number of levels and
      happiness should not be metered, by the lack of some freakishly
      specific talent or skill.

      To continue onwards and deeper......

      Although I did not mention G~d in my previous posting, I was
      speaking about him/her/them/it/us/<insert the unspeakable here>.
      Sometimes the best way to discuss things, is not to talk of them at
      all. To lead a person's mind in a certain direction to prep their mind
      so that they can make the jump to understanding without shoving it
      down their throat. Unfortunately this is a skill I am still
      developing.

      Perhaps someone might try and argue this with me, but it seems
      obvious that not one person on this planet follows the metaphysical to
      the tee (or any belief for that matter). Was Hitler a true Arian? Do
      Jewish people follow the Torah? (I'm tired on the "politically
      correct" Christianity bashing so I'm going to branch out and offend
      everyone equally from now on) This is not because they do not want to,
      or are weak, but like everything else in the universe, perfection has
      only been demonstrated as an idea, never a reality. There is no
      geometric 'perfection' (in the general current human sense) in this
      universe. If you doubt me, pick up a book on quantum physics or
      relativity then come back and educate me.

      In the meantime, should more facts arise, you have no certainty
      that there is not a deeper layer to the onion of reality. I challenge
      anyone to show my a perfect geometric object. We deal with
      approximations that help us improve our lives. A foundation does not
      need to be geometrically perfect to support a home for the time you
      will live there (although one might argue it is perfect, if for the
      scope of its usefulness it performs within the tolerances required).

      All these discussions of the nature of G~d and meaning, if they are
      a source of entertainment or comfort then more power to you. However
      if any of you are trying to draw some universal rational conclusion on
      some entity(s) that are completely isolated from this universe it is a
      hopeless task. It's like saying A + B + C + D + .... = 1 then
      figuring out the variables. WE CAN ONLY DEAL WITH THINGS THAT AFFECT
      US AND THAT WE AFFECT. Opinions are a dime a dozen, Anybody can say
      anything to anyone, but without facts or truths to support them, then
      chances are their answers lack any validity. No offense to anyone
      (especially to someone that appears very bright and full of humanity),
      but thought experiments only appear relevant when they are based on a
      foundation of facts and observations. This is what has brought mankind
      out of the darkness. And this is the gift that nature have given us.

      If a 'good' and 'caring' entity(s) exists then it makes no sense
      that they should give us the ability to reason and observe our
      universe then try and trick us. Of course you can argue that G~d's
      thoughts are beyond us or a question of faith, which I'm sure is the
      case, but history has shown us that using our minds has increased our
      life spans, cured diseases, fed us, allowed us to explore the unknown
      and expanded our vision of the universe. This seems the way to G~d,
      not moving back into caves and superstition.

      Before someone begins whining to me about the bomb, pollution,
      greed, etc.... I will remind you everything comes at a cost. I am not
      justifying those things, but don't argue about pollution then have a
      car. You always have the option to opt out of technology and
      knowledge. Go live naked in the bush, pray to your deity of choice (or
      sacrifice a chicken if that is your wish), scavenge for food like the
      rest of the animal kingdom, and romanticize about the beauty of nature
      as you run from a lion that's trying to turn you into an appetizer.

      Still here? We are not task specific machines. We are complex and
      imperfect creatures of varying morality, conditioning and intelligence
      that are trying our best to survive and understand and need time and
      effort to come to solutions for problems.

      If G~d is not concerned with the events of this universe, I can
      feel free to say and do anything, without fear of reprisal in any
      afterlife and the only meaning is that which I arbitrarily attach.
      This is one of items at the heart of Existentialism. My reasoning
      tells me however, the thing I should factor into myself though, is a
      G~d that is concerned with the events and structure of this universe,
      even if it eventually turns out our G~d is only manifested as human
      achievements in science and art. We have a choice to work as a team or
      independently (and I know full well I make many mistakes in judgment).

      You still here?

      Whether I believe in G~d or whether I am imperfect, is not
      relevant. I don't care what some so-and-so human said. If G~d makes a
      personal appearance for me, I'm sure to change my mind, but a 'good"
      G~d (and a smart human) realizes and accepts that humans are imperfect
      (After all, that is the way nature/G~d built us). If am living what I
      believe in my heart is a 'good' life (an authentic life, although I am
      using 'good' on many other levels here) as I am capable, I don't think
      G~d will fault me for being the creature I am. It doesn't matter if I
      am a monk or a porn star as long as I am not knowingly or
      intentionally hurting anyone, or misrepresenting myself at the
      expense of others.

      So how do personally believe I know I am living a 'good' life?
      Because the previously mentioned happiness is with me ( Something
      nature also provided me with ). It is a barometer of my authenticity,
      my harmony within my society and my chemical attributes. The things
      that make up my moral/ethical universe and guide my actions. Suffering
      is not a sign of moral or intellectual superiority. Hitler suffered a
      great deal in those final days. Christ died happy (although in a bit
      of discomfort), the "good" people I know are all happy. Physical pain
      or fatigue should not be confused with depression. (Nor should
      clinical depression be equated to unauthentic) Maybe some people slip
      through the cracks, although I think history catches up with the
      deviants eventually. But I am talking about the general rules of the
      universe, not some absolute. Don't be scared to feel happy with
      nothing or with everything.

      It is not that one's sense of authenticity has anything to do with
      its' reality (I've hopefully 'proved' there is no perfection) but it
      is the best you are capable of. But be warned, that a 'good' life is
      not a static model in even yourself. It's a moving target that is
      constantly evolving. The danger (in you and for others) lays in
      stopping that evolution and suggesting you know the path as opposed to
      only a quick snapshot of the current situation. Quoting Neitzche as
      proof of something, is akin to quoting Aristotle in the middle ages.
      Great for egos, cocktail parties, and "stretchings" but what is far
      more important is the content of the deliverable. What works today is
      not necessarily true of tomorrow. (For the record, I'm not speaking of
      Relativism, but I will not get into at this time as I diverge too much
      already).

      Speaking about things is the way to organized religion or
      organized anything. Although there is some hypocracy in this next
      statement I know of no other way to communicate it in a concise
      manner.

      If you really want to know G~d, people need to stop focusing on
      speaking about that which is still far from knowable, and just focus
      on the actions of 'self' and the characteristics of the observable
      universe around you. If you want faith, have faith in this
      reasoning... that G~D speaks to all of us through the universe. There
      is word for this I believe that applies to both people involved in
      physical and metaphysical concepts....... the numinous.

      From another angle.

      There are two extremes. An artist (or scientist) can create
      something that is true to themselves at that moment in time, or listen
      to everything society suggests is tasteful and deal strictly in
      popular trinkets to survive. Neither situation exists completely, but
      we are all artists that fall somewhere in-between.

      Your mind is the vision.
      You actions are the brush.
      Your life is the canvas.

      All you can do is paint, and pray any critics approve. Hone and
      refine your skills but feel no guilt, be happy. You are what you are,
      nothing more and nothing less, and that is as natural and beautiful as
      everything else.

      The problem with a purely spiritual view of the world, is you need
      to feed and protect yourself and those you love. If you do not
      occasionally partake in reality then you will die.

      The problem with a simplistic material view of the world, is there
      can be no meaning, equality or justice, as those concepts only exist
      as ideas. The purely material usually end up destroying themselves and
      take down others in the process.

      The trick is to stand on the fence without judgment and admit your
      ignorance. Be above it all. Take sides only if you are forced into
      action because something dear to you is at stake, but be prepared for
      the heartache that will enivitably arise because of that stance.

      .....

      Forgive me for babbling on. There is no secret agenda here, only
      some personal introspection and observation.

      J. Aiden
    • ricardo cardoba
      one thing i ve gained from our discussions is a plural sense of authenticity. the problem is, these authenticities are not mutually exclusive or culturally
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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        one thing i've gained from our discussions is a plural
        sense of authenticity. the problem is, these
        authenticities are not mutually exclusive or
        culturally commensuruable. authenticity is subjective
        therefore, authenticity is A (subjective) IDEAL. Your
        authenticity differs from my authenticity; i won't say
        yours is better than mine (because subjecivity is
        subjective) but the act of declaring authnticity is
        the same as declaring what is real. okay, can you
        compare ghandi with stalin? OR is existentialism a
        celebration of human potentiality? i'd rathr be akin
        to ghandi than stalin. why do i make that choice? am i
        stupid to make that choice?

        Best wishes

        ricardo
        --- Jim Aiden <livewild@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is not directed to anyone in particular just
        > to further
        > clarify some things. I get a bit queasy when people
        > associate words
        > like 'ESP' or 'UFO' to something I am saying, or
        > imply that I am
        > suggesting life is an illusion. What physicality is,
        > I cannot
        > determine, but as I recently mentioned to someone
        > else, I acknowledge
        > it's existence the moment I blink. So since I seemed
        > to lack
        > eloquence....I'll restate in a different way.
        >
        > "The pursuit of happiness" from the perspective
        > of "If I have food,
        > shelter, water, health and loving companionship and
        > everything else is
        > gravy" (i.e Maslow's Heir. of Needs), is an
        > authentic argument. The
        > "pursuit of happiness" from the perspective I
        > require external events
        > aside from those basics, is just another society's
        > example of
        > mysticism and probably the sign of a psychosis in an
        > individual. There
        > is nothing wrong with pursuing dreams. Only if once
        > you do reach
        > them, one believes they are a "superior" individual.
        > Or that if you
        > don't reach them, one believes they are weak and
        > cannot cope.
        > Superiority can be measured on an enormous number of
        > levels and
        > happiness should not be metered, by the lack of some
        > freakishly
        > specific talent or skill.
        >
        > To continue onwards and deeper......
        >
        > Although I did not mention G~d in my previous
        > posting, I was
        > speaking about him/her/them/it/us/<insert the
        > unspeakable here>.
        > Sometimes the best way to discuss things, is not to
        > talk of them at
        > all. To lead a person's mind in a certain direction
        > to prep their mind
        > so that they can make the jump to understanding
        > without shoving it
        > down their throat. Unfortunately this is a skill I
        > am still
        > developing.
        >
        > Perhaps someone might try and argue this with
        > me, but it seems
        > obvious that not one person on this planet follows
        > the metaphysical to
        > the tee (or any belief for that matter). Was Hitler
        > a true Arian? Do
        > Jewish people follow the Torah? (I'm tired on the
        > "politically
        > correct" Christianity bashing so I'm going to branch
        > out and offend
        > everyone equally from now on) This is not because
        > they do not want to,
        > or are weak, but like everything else in the
        > universe, perfection has
        > only been demonstrated as an idea, never a reality.
        > There is no
        > geometric 'perfection' (in the general current human
        > sense) in this
        > universe. If you doubt me, pick up a book on quantum
        > physics or
        > relativity then come back and educate me.
        >
        > In the meantime, should more facts arise, you
        > have no certainty
        > that there is not a deeper layer to the onion of
        > reality. I challenge
        > anyone to show my a perfect geometric object. We
        > deal with
        > approximations that help us improve our lives. A
        > foundation does not
        > need to be geometrically perfect to support a home
        > for the time you
        > will live there (although one might argue it is
        > perfect, if for the
        > scope of its usefulness it performs within the
        > tolerances required).
        >
        > All these discussions of the nature of G~d and
        > meaning, if they are
        > a source of entertainment or comfort then more power
        > to you. However
        > if any of you are trying to draw some universal
        > rational conclusion on
        > some entity(s) that are completely isolated from
        > this universe it is a
        > hopeless task. It's like saying A + B + C + D +
        > .... = 1 then
        > figuring out the variables. WE CAN ONLY DEAL WITH
        > THINGS THAT AFFECT
        > US AND THAT WE AFFECT. Opinions are a dime a dozen,
        > Anybody can say
        > anything to anyone, but without facts or truths to
        > support them, then
        > chances are their answers lack any validity. No
        > offense to anyone
        > (especially to someone that appears very bright and
        > full of humanity),
        > but thought experiments only appear relevant when
        > they are based on a
        > foundation of facts and observations. This is what
        > has brought mankind
        > out of the darkness. And this is the gift that
        > nature have given us.
        >
        > If a 'good' and 'caring' entity(s) exists then it
        > makes no sense
        > that they should give us the ability to reason and
        > observe our
        > universe then try and trick us. Of course you can
        > argue that G~d's
        > thoughts are beyond us or a question of faith, which
        > I'm sure is the
        > case, but history has shown us that using our minds
        > has increased our
        > life spans, cured diseases, fed us, allowed us to
        > explore the unknown
        > and expanded our vision of the universe. This seems
        > the way to G~d,
        > not moving back into caves and superstition.
        >
        > Before someone begins whining to me about the
        > bomb, pollution,
        > greed, etc.... I will remind you everything comes at
        > a cost. I am not
        > justifying those things, but don't argue about
        > pollution then have a
        > car. You always have the option to opt out of
        > technology and
        > knowledge. Go live naked in the bush, pray to your
        > deity of choice (or
        > sacrifice a chicken if that is your wish), scavenge
        > for food like the
        > rest of the animal kingdom, and romanticize about
        > the beauty of nature
        > as you run from a lion that's trying to turn you
        > into an appetizer.
        >
        > Still here? We are not task specific machines. We
        > are complex and
        > imperfect creatures of varying morality,
        > conditioning and intelligence
        > that are trying our best to survive and understand
        > and need time and
        > effort to come to solutions for problems.
        >
        > If G~d is not concerned with the events of this
        > universe, I can
        > feel free to say and do anything, without fear of
        > reprisal in any
        > afterlife and the only meaning is that which I
        > arbitrarily attach.
        > This is one of items at the heart of Existentialism.
        > My reasoning
        > tells me however, the thing I should factor into
        > myself though, is a
        > G~d that is concerned with the events and structure
        > of this universe,
        > even if it eventually turns out our G~d is only
        > manifested as human
        > achievements in science and art. We have a choice to
        > work as a team or
        > independently (and I know full well I make many
        > mistakes in judgment).
        >
        > You still here?
        >
        > Whether I believe in G~d or whether I am
        > imperfect, is not
        > relevant. I don't care what some so-and-so human
        > said. If G~d makes a
        > personal appearance for me, I'm sure to change my
        > mind, but a 'good"
        > G~d (and a smart human) realizes and accepts that
        > humans are imperfect
        > (After all, that is the way nature/G~d built us). If
        > am living what I
        > believe in my heart is a 'good' life (an authentic
        > life, although I am
        > using 'good' on many other levels here) as I am
        > capable, I don't think
        > G~d will fault me for being the creature I am. It
        > doesn't matter if I
        > am a monk or a porn star as long as I am not
        > knowingly or
        > intentionally hurting anyone, or misrepresenting
        > myself at the
        >
        === message truncated ===


        =====


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      • Tony Lea
        Eduard, ... Are you serious? Tony
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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          Eduard,

          > Since no proof has been
          > given, the conclusion of the thought experiment
          > can only be that "god" does not exist.

          Are you serious?

          Tony
        • Eduard Alf
          hi Jim, I really appreciated your answer here. you have put a lot of thought in it. I put your reply in my best folder; of things that are worth some
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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            hi Jim,

            I really appreciated your answer here. you have
            put a lot of thought in it. I put your reply in
            my "best" folder; of things that are worth some
            further musing.

            I agree that "There is nothing wrong with pursuing
            dreams". It is dreams which make us what we are,
            or what we would like to be.

            However I disagree with your point that "thought
            experiments only appear relevant when they are
            based on a foundation of facts and observations".
            A thought experience is something that we do when
            there is a lack of sufficient facts and
            observations. It is a way of dealing with a
            subject to at least see if it is possible to
            arrive at some conclusion. It tests the outer
            validity of something. Basically that is what was
            done when scientists were trying to come up with
            an explanation as to how light and radio waves
            move through the apparent emptiness of space. It
            was this lack of any facts or observations that
            lead to the conclusion that there is no such thing
            as "ether". A thought experiment allows you to
            put away what cannot be proven and finally get on
            with more important issues.

            And that was my purpose. I would take it that the
            fundamental tenet of existentialist philosophy, is
            that there is a freedom of choice by which we make
            our world. Some time ago, I brought forth the
            question of whether we indeed have "freedom of
            choice". That is, we might not be able to choose
            options which would affect our social
            connectiveness. For example, if the F12 button on
            your computer was wired to a planet-destroying
            bomb, do you have absolute freedom to push it? I
            grant that it is an extreme, but if this thought
            experiment points out a limitation, then it is
            possible that there are limitations as well for
            lesser scenarios. For example, could I push F12
            if it would rid the world of a Hitler?

            Although the subsequent email replies went in,
            over, and around the subject, I think that it was
            generally agreed that there was a limitation in a
            social sense.

            Now the question is whether there also a
            limitation in a religious sense. And in this I
            proposed that the term "god" as being that applied
            to a conventional transcendental god, as opposed
            to a Daoist concept of a universal force or
            linkage. If the conventional god does indeed
            exist, then we definitely do not have freedom of
            choice. From a social point of view, we can push
            F12 to destroy the planet, and this may or may not
            be with an awareness that we ourselves would also
            be destroyed. Some may wish to commit suicide in
            this fashion, since there would be no one around
            to see the spelling mistakes in your farewell
            letter.

            But if a transcendental god exists, then it would
            not just be a matter of disappearing from the pain
            of life, but rather an eternity of the same in
            hell. I would suggest that this would be a
            powerful inhibitor. And it is not a matter of
            saying "maybe" or "might", since if we conclude
            that god exists, then we would also believe in the
            existence of a hell, since it comes as a package.
            Of course, one might argue that god may not be
            vengeful and instead be forgiving. But however
            that may go [being put in hell or to be forgiven],
            there still is a result of action. Thus if you
            push F12, this will definitely happen to you.

            The thought experiment that I presented [to raise
            question as to the existence of god], has produced
            the usual string of replies. But for all this, no
            one has been able to give a proof for the
            existence of "god". Since no proof has been
            given, the conclusion of the thought experiment
            can only be that "god" does not exist. And
            perhaps we should end it there and get on with
            other stuff.

            eduard
          • C. S. Wyatt
            I would likely press the F12, if only to test the theory. That is why such tests are dangerous -- many humans always want to know what if... when presented
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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              I would likely press the F12, if only to test the theory. That is why such
              tests are dangerous -- many humans always want to know "what if..." when
              presented with a question. Science without purpose, as it were. That's what
              Nietzsche said would destroy mankind. (Can we say 'atom bomb?')

              - C. S.
            • C. S. Wyatt
              To poorly quote a Ansel Adams: I met G-d in Yosemite Valley. He was splendid. Then again, you might like to know I live a bike-ride away from Sequoia National
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 2, 2001
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                To poorly quote a Ansel Adams: I met G-d in Yosemite Valley. He was
                splendid.

                Then again, you might like to know I live a bike-ride away from Sequoia
                National Park.

                Again, how and why should we prove G-d? I don't care if there is or is not a
                Creator. Knowing would not change how I live my life. What worries me is
                that many people would live differently based upon knowing the answer. If
                the answer were "no" some people would fall into anti-social patterns,
                forgetting that social structures keep people from limiting their rights.
                (It's a balancing act, of course.) Others, knowing there is a Creator, would
                suddenly experience the same level of guilt my mother has been able to
                generate in me with a phone call. "Why do I always have to call you?" (*
                that's humor, people *)

                - C. S. Wyatt
              • Diana
                ... You mean that everyone defines authenticity in a different way? ... So you are not just saying that every authentic person is unique. Are you saying that
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                  ricardo cardoba wrote:
                  > one thing i've gained from our discussions is a plural
                  > sense of authenticity.

                  You mean that everyone defines authenticity in a different way?

                  > the problem is, these
                  > authenticities are not mutually exclusive or
                  > culturally commensuruable. authenticity is subjective
                  > therefore, authenticity is A (subjective) IDEAL. Your
                  > authenticity differs from my authenticity; i won't say
                  > yours is better than mine (because subjecivity is
                  > subjective) but the act of declaring authnticity is
                  > the same as declaring what is real.

                  So you are not just saying that every authentic person is unique. Are
                  you saying that every authentic person would have a different
                  conception of authenticity? That there cannot be a uniform conception
                  (/definition) of authenticity – one that characterizes all authentic
                  people. Why do you think so?

                  > okay, can you
                  > compare ghandi with stalin? OR is existentialism a
                  > celebration of human potentiality? i'd rathr be akin
                  > to ghandi than stalin. why do i make that choice? am i
                  > stupid to make that choice?

                  Why do you make this choice? Do you imply that every man's choice is
                  right?
                • Diana
                  ... is or is not a ... me is ... answer. If ... patterns, [...] Maybe it depends on the way they perceived God before that. Another king of faith comes in mind
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                    "C. S. Wyatt" wrote:

                    > [...] Again, how and why should we prove G-d? I don't care if there
                    is or is not a
                    > Creator. Knowing would not change how I live my life. What worries
                    me is
                    > that many people would live differently based upon knowing the
                    answer. If
                    > the answer were "no" some people would fall into anti-social
                    patterns, [...]


                    Maybe it depends on the way they perceived God before that.

                    Another king of faith comes in mind – faith in "good". Isn't it
                    indeed a faith – that, for the sake of which it is worth to be honest
                    etc.
                  • james tan
                    aiden, mr eduard: However I disagree with your point that thought experiments only appear relevant when they are based on a foundation of facts and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                      aiden,

                      mr eduard:>>>However I disagree with your point that "thought
                      experiments only appear relevant when they are
                      based on a foundation of facts and observations".<<<

                      at this pt, jim, one can be very confused about the true nature of
                      experiments, whether thought or actual, esp when some smart and blind alek
                      insist he is smarter than einstein by writing tons of words that sound 85%
                      gibberish. the challenging hurdle is to be able to recognise it for what it
                      is, when it is written in some rather apparently scientifically sounding
                      language. first, i wish to say i agree fully with u that thought experiments
                      require to base on a foundation of facts & observation; & i just wish to add
                      on to your list, jim: not just facts & observations, but established
                      principles of physics as well. if one wishes to do a thought experiment base
                      on fantasy, ufo, martians, blue & red clams on a green beach, then at least
                      respect his rights; but as for intellectual reliability & validity, u are
                      better off talking to a mad man. at least for a mad man, he don't pretend,
                      he is crazy, u know it. but for something else, when a little truth is mixed
                      with a whole load of nonsense, then stirred thoroughly, when the languages
                      he uses has some apparent respectability, words like 'freedom of choice',
                      'existentialism', etc, it'd take more discerning power to see a chaff from
                      the wheats; else, u will be goddam confused. it's not enough that he is
                      muddled; u get whirred into his confusion as well.

                      in experiments such as in a physics experiment, say whether ether exist or
                      not, we know exactly what we are talking about. by that, we mean we have
                      some way of measuring a certain variable, be it velocity, mass or
                      gravitational pull, whatnots. we have a proposition or hypothesis, we test
                      it by measuring, & we construct experimental setting so that we are able to
                      measure what we set out to measure, & a lot of the efforts are put into
                      avoiding confounding factors. when they prove that ether does not exist,
                      they do so by first assuming it exists, with full understanding of what the
                      purported substance's physical properties; they construct a setting based on
                      this understanding of its properties; & if it exists, it will have a certain
                      effect on the speed of light (this criteria is valid); but it turn out that
                      the effect is not there (through measurement, not wishy washy fantasy with
                      the martians). therefore they do not find it necessary to posit the
                      existence of ether. this is what i call by experiment. the criteria is not
                      arbitrary, but based on some properties of the substance theyh are
                      measuring. this is valid. for einstein, he didn't even have to conduct the
                      actual experiment to know; he conducted a thought experiment (without the
                      luxury of the technology of the labs), but mind u, he has a master's grasp
                      of the principles of physics, & not some crank's stubborn insistence as if
                      one could win a nobel by just stubborn insistence one is right or
                      u-can't-prove-me-wrong stance. his thought experiment was based on his
                      understanding of maxwell's equations concerning the light as a constant of
                      electromagnetic interaction. now ether was assumed to exist because up till
                      before einstein, physicists have noticed all waves need a medium, yr sound
                      wave, water waves, mechanical waves, whatnots. up till then, newton's legacy
                      was the only model they have to explain most phenomenons. (o man, i am
                      recounting all this just so that u know what is the real meaning of thought
                      experiment, o man.....thanks to eduard's half-baked cake & 'brillance'). or
                      u know, the mechanical worldview. u have all things make of atoms (or
                      molecules), they kiss each other? they exert force on each other, forces
                      such as gravitational, electrical, capillary, magnetic, whatnots. either
                      they were attractive or repulsive, i mean these forces; i.e. they act in the
                      direction of the line connecting these 2 particles (let's just start with 2
                      as a basic model) & to obey laws (not eduard's laws, mind u, just in case u
                      think everyting obey eduard's laws, even god must disappear when eduard
                      begin to think his thought experiment, how brillant he is; but the laws of
                      physics, such as inverse law for the gravitational & electrostatic forces),
                      which depend on the distance between them. all phenomena is explained in
                      terms of newton's 3 laws of motion. so, ......to cut the physics short,
                      let's jsut say that according to field pt of view (which has come to
                      dominate some arena of physics), 2 charged particles don't interact
                      directly, each charge creates fields in the space surrounding it, it's these
                      field which exert force on each other, on the other charge. these electric &
                      magnetic field were thought of as states of a mechanical medium, the
                      electromagnetic ether, & thought to be explainable on the basis of
                      mechanical models of that ether. but comes along maxwell, whose equations
                      gave complete description of both the fields (elec & magn) at all pts of
                      space & how they change over time. einstein came to see that the hinge lies
                      on an understanding of space & time, since it underlies all of mechanics,
                      electrodynamics, whatnots. after a study on the concept of simutaneity of
                      distant events (in part by thought experiments based on principles of
                      physics, facts, observations (which only einstein is able to visualise), not
                      some fantasy), he realised the principle of relativity could be make
                      compatible with maxwell's equations if one abandoned newtonian absolute time
                      in favour of a new absolute, the speed of light, the same in all inertia
                      frames. & we have the lorentz transformation for the space-time coodinates
                      replacing the newtonian ones. since these transformations are kinematical in
                      nature, any acceptable physical theory must be invariant under the group of
                      such transformation. it effectively remove the need of the ether, 'purely'
                      theoretically. other of his thought experiments are certainly also based on
                      facts, observations & principles of physics. the brownian movement, the
                      general theory of relativity, the equvalence of mass & energy, etc are not
                      built on fantasy or some arbitrary whims. they are always very careful to
                      test the validity where lesser men jump in to claim certainty.

                      what u have from eduard is just claims & some cheap skepticism. eduard have
                      a confusion of categories, of methodology, of connections; he may meant no
                      malice, but as far as i could see, he is clearly muddled, & who refuses or
                      is unable to see his own confusion. with a claim that nobody can prove him
                      wrong (i am only interested in picking out logical inconsistency or fallacy
                      from him; i am not interested to prove that god exist, since elsewhere i
                      have already stated that logically it is a impossiblitiy either to prove or
                      disapprove his existence), he 'override' & paint all attempts to show his
                      limitation with that brush. he cheapen the concept of thought experiment, he
                      doesn't know what is really involved in a authentic thought experiment, he
                      makes claims. but i think he meant no malice. it is just that stupidity
                      sometimes irk me, nothing more. just like a mosquitoes bite. richard used to
                      be like me, answering him about red clams on a green beach & ufo (yet one of
                      those 'thought experiments' of eduard); but now, he just disappear
                      altogether.

                      james.






                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] The pursuit of happiness and G~d
                      Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:25:11 -0400

                      hi Jim,

                      I really appreciated your answer here. you have
                      put a lot of thought in it. I put your reply in
                      my "best" folder; of things that are worth some
                      further musing.

                      I agree that "There is nothing wrong with pursuing
                      dreams". It is dreams which make us what we are,
                      or what we would like to be.

                      However I disagree with your point that "thought
                      experiments only appear relevant when they are
                      based on a foundation of facts and observations".
                      A thought experience is something that we do when
                      there is a lack of sufficient facts and
                      observations. It is a way of dealing with a
                      subject to at least see if it is possible to
                      arrive at some conclusion. It tests the outer
                      validity of something. Basically that is what was
                      done when scientists were trying to come up with
                      an explanation as to how light and radio waves
                      move through the apparent emptiness of space. It
                      was this lack of any facts or observations that
                      lead to the conclusion that there is no such thing
                      as "ether". A thought experiment allows you to
                      put away what cannot be proven and finally get on
                      with more important issues.

                      And that was my purpose. I would take it that the
                      fundamental tenet of existentialist philosophy, is
                      that there is a freedom of choice by which we make
                      our world. Some time ago, I brought forth the
                      question of whether we indeed have "freedom of
                      choice". That is, we might not be able to choose
                      options which would affect our social
                      connectiveness. For example, if the F12 button on
                      your computer was wired to a planet-destroying
                      bomb, do you have absolute freedom to push it? I
                      grant that it is an extreme, but if this thought
                      experiment points out a limitation, then it is
                      possible that there are limitations as well for
                      lesser scenarios. For example, could I push F12
                      if it would rid the world of a Hitler?

                      Although the subsequent email replies went in,
                      over, and around the subject, I think that it was
                      generally agreed that there was a limitation in a
                      social sense.

                      Now the question is whether there also a
                      limitation in a religious sense. And in this I
                      proposed that the term "god" as being that applied
                      to a conventional transcendental god, as opposed
                      to a Daoist concept of a universal force or
                      linkage. If the conventional god does indeed
                      exist, then we definitely do not have freedom of
                      choice. From a social point of view, we can push
                      F12 to destroy the planet, and this may or may not
                      be with an awareness that we ourselves would also
                      be destroyed. Some may wish to commit suicide in
                      this fashion, since there would be no one around
                      to see the spelling mistakes in your farewell
                      letter.

                      But if a transcendental god exists, then it would
                      not just be a matter of disappearing from the pain
                      of life, but rather an eternity of the same in
                      hell. I would suggest that this would be a
                      powerful inhibitor. And it is not a matter of
                      saying "maybe" or "might", since if we conclude
                      that god exists, then we would also believe in the
                      existence of a hell, since it comes as a package.
                      Of course, one might argue that god may not be
                      vengeful and instead be forgiving. But however
                      that may go [being put in hell or to be forgiven],
                      there still is a result of action. Thus if you
                      push F12, this will definitely happen to you.

                      The thought experiment that I presented [to raise
                      question as to the existence of god], has produced
                      the usual string of replies. But for all this, no
                      one has been able to give a proof for the
                      existence of "god". Since no proof has been
                      given, the conclusion of the thought experiment
                      can only be that "god" does not exist. And
                      perhaps we should end it there and get on with
                      other stuff.

                      eduard



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                    • Diana
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                        << Sometimes the best way to discuss things, is not to talk of them
                        at all. To lead a person's mind in a certain direction to prep their
                        mind so that they can make the jump to understanding without shoving
                        it down their throat. >>

                        Yes, this is in order to allow them to *experience* the truth of what
                        you want to convey. I find this to be the most wonderful way to
                        express some idea.

                        This is actually what artists are trying to do: a work of art
                        discloses some truth to you - by allowing you to experience it.

                        I cannot resist giving you a quote on Heidegger's reading of Van
                        Gogh's painting "A pair of boots" (depicting a pair of peasant shoes).

                        "Van Gogh's painting is the *disclosure* of what the equipment, the
                        pair of peasant shoes, is in truth.... This entity emerges into the
                        *unconcealment of its own being*", by way of the *mediation* of the
                        work of art, which draws the whole absent world and earth into
                        revelation around itself..." (Frederic Jameson, "Culture" –
                        commenting on Heidegger's "Origin of a Work of Art")

                        So you mean that philosophers could do the same?
                      • Eduard Alf
                        hi james et folks, Absolutely amazing. I had expected some sort of vitriolic, but not a full page of gibberish. Amazing. You are quite right that ether was
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                          hi james et folks,

                          Absolutely amazing. I had expected some sort of
                          vitriolic, but not a full page of gibberish.
                          Amazing.

                          You are quite right that ether was first presumed
                          to exist and then by experiment it was shown that
                          the anticipated results were just not there. Thus
                          in the end, any experiment that might be performed
                          to prove the supposition that ether existed was
                          met with failure.

                          But you are wrong as to the method of the thought
                          experiment. I occurs in the mind and does not
                          involve actual measurement. Such type of
                          experiment lead to the Einstein's development of
                          the theory of relativity. Certainly he had a
                          good background of knowledge. I dont deny that.
                          But he did not conduct experiments in order to
                          arrive at his theory. Which in all of this you
                          seem wish to emphasize.

                          But then the problem of ether and the development
                          of the theory of relativity is well beyond this
                          simple issue of the existence or non-existence of
                          god. I note that in all your words, you do not
                          offer any proof that there is a god. If you wish
                          me to start off with the supposition that a god
                          exists [and again, I must say that I am referring
                          here to the conventional god that answers
                          prayers], then it would seem reasonable that your
                          reply should at least provide some proof that this
                          supposition is correct. But you have offered
                          nothing.

                          Personally I think it is time that we grew up and
                          put aside childish things. "God" does not exist,
                          has never existed, and is unlikely to suddenly
                          arise as some form of omnipotent entity in the
                          future.

                          Again, allow me to put it clearly to you. I dont
                          care how you would want to start off. Dont even
                          use the phrase "thought experiment". But instead
                          of just words, please provide the proof that "god"
                          exists. And again I am referring to the
                          conventional "god" who answers prayers. That cant
                          be too hard, now can it.

                          eduard
                        • james tan
                          eduard, richard had written to me in private not to bother to communicate with u, as u are as blind as a bat. i thought he was too drastic in that, i thought
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                            eduard,

                            richard had written to me in private not to bother to communicate with u, as
                            u are as blind as a bat. i thought he was too drastic in that, i thought
                            that u are not that hopeless. i thought. i may be more childish than u (my
                            age is way below yours), but u are more stupid & blind than anyone in this
                            list, the way i look at it. u suffer from denial & repression, & a
                            malnutrition of intelligence quotient. u try to stretch yourself beyond what
                            genes quality your mother has given u.

                            james.






                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: RE: [existlist] The pursuit of happiness and G~d
                            Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:19:33 -0400

                            hi james et folks,

                            Absolutely amazing. I had expected some sort of
                            vitriolic, but not a full page of gibberish.
                            Amazing.

                            You are quite right that ether was first presumed
                            to exist and then by experiment it was shown that
                            the anticipated results were just not there. Thus
                            in the end, any experiment that might be performed
                            to prove the supposition that ether existed was
                            met with failure.

                            But you are wrong as to the method of the thought
                            experiment. I occurs in the mind and does not
                            involve actual measurement. Such type of
                            experiment lead to the Einstein's development of
                            the theory of relativity. Certainly he had a
                            good background of knowledge. I dont deny that.
                            But he did not conduct experiments in order to
                            arrive at his theory. Which in all of this you
                            seem wish to emphasize.

                            But then the problem of ether and the development
                            of the theory of relativity is well beyond this
                            simple issue of the existence or non-existence of
                            god. I note that in all your words, you do not
                            offer any proof that there is a god. If you wish
                            me to start off with the supposition that a god
                            exists [and again, I must say that I am referring
                            here to the conventional god that answers
                            prayers], then it would seem reasonable that your
                            reply should at least provide some proof that this
                            supposition is correct. But you have offered
                            nothing.

                            Personally I think it is time that we grew up and
                            put aside childish things. "God" does not exist,
                            has never existed, and is unlikely to suddenly
                            arise as some form of omnipotent entity in the
                            future.

                            Again, allow me to put it clearly to you. I dont
                            care how you would want to start off. Dont even
                            use the phrase "thought experiment". But instead
                            of just words, please provide the proof that "god"
                            exists. And again I am referring to the
                            conventional "god" who answers prayers. That cant
                            be too hard, now can it.

                            eduard



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                          • Eduard Alf
                            hi Diana, I was just talking about something of this order on another group. The idea that one has only a small window by which to view the world. Giving
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
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                              hi Diana,

                              I was just talking about something of this order
                              on another group. The idea that one has only a
                              small window by which to view the world. Giving
                              access to little moments of awareness. I would
                              think that the painting "A pair of boots" has that
                              quality. Although we each have the capability to
                              see through these windows as they are offered by
                              life, I would agree that this is the real work of
                              the artist ... and of the philosopher.

                              Although I would tend towards discussion on any
                              subject at all [e.g. existence of god], I
                              understand the point that, "Sometimes the best way
                              to discuss things, is not to talk of them at all".
                              But only within the context that the opportunity
                              to "experience" is available. Otherwise, to
                              discuss [that is to try to communicate] is always
                              of benefit.

                              eduard

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Diana [mailto:da-sein@...]
                              Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 10:37 PM
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: The pursuit of happiness
                              and G~d

                              << Sometimes the best way to discuss things, is
                              not to talk of them
                              at all. To lead a person's mind in a certain
                              direction to prep their
                              mind so that they can make the jump to
                              understanding without shoving
                              it down their throat. >>

                              Yes, this is in order to allow them to
                              *experience* the truth of what
                              you want to convey. I find this to be the most
                              wonderful way to
                              express some idea.

                              This is actually what artists are trying to do: a
                              work of art
                              discloses some truth to you - by allowing you to
                              experience it.

                              I cannot resist giving you a quote on Heidegger's
                              reading of Van
                              Gogh's painting "A pair of boots" (depicting a
                              pair of peasant shoes).

                              "Van Gogh's painting is the *disclosure* of what
                              the equipment, the
                              pair of peasant shoes, is in truth.... This entity
                              emerges into the
                              *unconcealment of its own being*", by way of the
                              *mediation* of the
                              work of art, which draws the whole absent world
                              and earth into
                              revelation around itself..." (Frederic Jameson,
                              "Culture" –
                              commenting on Heidegger's "Origin of a Work of
                              Art")

                              So you mean that philosophers could do the same?
                            • Yulian K. Gaard
                              James, Undertsand THAT IS ENOUGH ! Quit those personal offences. Eduard is free not to agree with your arguments and argumentation - that does NOT give you the
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                James, Undertsand THAT IS ENOUGH ! Quit those personal offences.
                                Eduard is free not to agree with your arguments and argumentation -
                                that does NOT give you the right to break several rules and policies
                                and come with alot of personal offences. I certainly hope that the
                                moderator will give you a ban from the list a while for that. You are
                                basically behaving like a child. Now you might say that Eduard
                                started it, but you played allong and calling someone blind and
                                offending their intelegence and personality is NOT something that Id
                                like to see. Basically, either you stop or I will NOT be recieving
                                any more mails from your side.


                                FLAMING
                                Yulian


                                Ps. Eduard; same personal offences policy on you as well as the rest
                                of you.
                              • james tan
                                u can flame for all u want, yulian, that is your business. i still think eduard is blind & stupid. amused, james. From: Yulian K. Gaard
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  u can flame for all u want, yulian, that is your business. i still think
                                  eduard is blind & stupid.

                                  amused,
                                  james.






                                  From: "Yulian K. Gaard" <cfp8142@...>
                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [existlist] THAT IS ENOUGH, JAMES !!!
                                  Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 04:50:15 -0000



                                  James, Undertsand THAT IS ENOUGH ! Quit those personal offences.
                                  Eduard is free not to agree with your arguments and argumentation -
                                  that does NOT give you the right to break several rules and policies
                                  and come with alot of personal offences. I certainly hope that the
                                  moderator will give you a ban from the list a while for that. You are
                                  basically behaving like a child. Now you might say that Eduard
                                  started it, but you played allong and calling someone blind and
                                  offending their intelegence and personality is NOT something that Id
                                  like to see. Basically, either you stop or I will NOT be recieving
                                  any more mails from your side.


                                  FLAMING
                                  Yulian


                                  Ps. Eduard; same personal offences policy on you as well as the rest
                                  of you.



                                  _________________________________________________________________
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                                • Yulian K. Gaard
                                  Let me know when someone have done something about James through a private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving the club as I see no reason to have myself
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Let me know when someone have done something about James through a
                                    private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving the club as I see
                                    no reason to have myself connected with such people in any way. And I
                                    do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with personal offences - if
                                    I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV not a philosophy
                                    group.

                                    Allways.
                                    Yulian
                                  • james tan
                                    self-righteous yulian. amused, james. From: Yulian K. Gaard Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      self-righteous yulian.

                                      amused,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Yulian K. Gaard" <cfp8142@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                      Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000

                                      Let me know when someone have done something about James through a
                                      private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving the club as I see
                                      no reason to have myself connected with such people in any way. And I
                                      do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with personal offences - if
                                      I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV not a philosophy
                                      group.

                                      Allways.
                                      Yulian



                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                    • Tony Medina
                                      Hello all, I ve left for a few days, the conversation, lack of dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand how this evolved into what it is. I see this as
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello all,
                                        I've left for a few days, the conversation, lack of
                                        dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand how
                                        this evolved into what it is.

                                        I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm, it
                                        must be, you all have reacted in strange ways. Yet
                                        nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has been
                                        able to put feelings aside and think rationaly ..?

                                        Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i was
                                        making by calling me a medina? What is that supposed
                                        to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of intellect.

                                        Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I would
                                        of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation that
                                        if anything else we in this group should have been
                                        able to forsee and avoid this.

                                        Is this why people need a god?


                                        Tone ......




                                        --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                        > self-righteous yulian.
                                        >
                                        > amused,
                                        > james.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: "Yulian K. Gaard" <cfp8142@...>
                                        > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                        > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000
                                        >
                                        > Let me know when someone have done something about
                                        > James through a
                                        > private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving
                                        > the club as I see
                                        > no reason to have myself connected with such people
                                        > in any way. And I
                                        > do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                        > personal offences - if
                                        > I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV
                                        > not a philosophy
                                        > group.
                                        >
                                        > Allways.
                                        > Yulian
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        _________________________________________________________________
                                        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                        > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                        >
                                        >


                                        __________________________________________________
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                                      • james tan
                                        it d seem you want to join in as well. i hope not. threesome is enough, and we don t need a medina to increase the heat. not trying to discount u, i hope u can
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 3, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          it'd seem you want to join in as well. i hope not. threesome is enough, and
                                          we don't need a medina to increase the heat. not trying to discount u, i
                                          hope u can see that.

                                          cheers,
                                          james.






                                          From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [existlist] What happened?
                                          Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:00:19 -0700 (PDT)

                                          Hello all,
                                          I've left for a few days, the conversation, lack of
                                          dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand how
                                          this evolved into what it is.

                                          I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm, it
                                          must be, you all have reacted in strange ways. Yet
                                          nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has been
                                          able to put feelings aside and think rationaly ..?

                                          Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i was
                                          making by calling me a medina? What is that supposed
                                          to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of intellect.

                                          Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I would
                                          of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation that
                                          if anything else we in this group should have been
                                          able to forsee and avoid this.

                                          Is this why people need a god?


                                          Tone ......




                                          --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                          > self-righteous yulian.
                                          >
                                          > amused,
                                          > james.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: "Yulian K. Gaard" <cfp8142@...>
                                          > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                          > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000
                                          >
                                          > Let me know when someone have done something about
                                          > James through a
                                          > private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving
                                          > the club as I see
                                          > no reason to have myself connected with such people
                                          > in any way. And I
                                          > do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                          > personal offences - if
                                          > I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV
                                          > not a philosophy
                                          > group.
                                          >
                                          > Allways.
                                          > Yulian
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Eduard Alf
                                          Yulian, Please dont go. I am the one at whom the rocks are being thrown. Although I well understand and appreciate your comment. eduard ... From: Yulian K.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 4, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Yulian,

                                            Please dont go. I am the one at whom the rocks
                                            are being thrown. Although I well understand and
                                            appreciate your comment.

                                            eduard

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Yulian K. Gaard
                                            [mailto:cfp8142@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 1:04 AM
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.

                                            Let me know when someone have done something about
                                            James through a
                                            private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving
                                            the club as I see
                                            no reason to have myself connected with such
                                            people in any way. And I
                                            do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                            personal offences - if
                                            I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV
                                            not a philosophy
                                            group.

                                            Allways.
                                            Yulian
                                          • Eduard Alf
                                            hi Tony, this all started when I proposed a thought experiment to determine whether or not god existed. I took this to be of some importance in the way of
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 4, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              hi Tony,

                                              this all started when I proposed a "thought
                                              experiment" to determine whether or not god
                                              existed. I took this to be of some importance in
                                              the way of exploring "freedom of choice". It
                                              seemed to me that if god did exist, then one's
                                              ability to make free choices as limited.

                                              The conclusion of the thought experiment was that
                                              god did not exist. That is, a god in the
                                              conventional sense of a god who answers prayer.
                                              There were a lot of ways to reply to this. One
                                              could have brought forth evidence of the existence
                                              of this "god". Or showed where the thought
                                              experiment was invalid in either the premise
                                              itself or in the assumptions. But I guess I hit a
                                              nerve on this subject with some people and
                                              especially james. Instead of replying to my email
                                              in an appropriate civil fashion, he chose to the
                                              vitriolic. Which is in itself kind of
                                              interesting, since it indicates an example of one
                                              who cannot make choices freely. James appears to
                                              be consumed by his need to attack.

                                              Anyway, through the thought experiment, I have
                                              shown that "god" [in the sense of the conventional
                                              god who is supposed to answer prayers] does not
                                              exist. Which to me is pleasing, since I can get
                                              on with other stuff. I can abandon the idea
                                              entirely, invent my own god, or devote myself to
                                              Daoism as I have been doing.

                                              have fun ...

                                              eduard

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Tony Medina [mailto:cunner@...]
                                              Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 2:00 AM
                                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [existlist] What happened?

                                              Hello all,
                                              I've left for a few days, the conversation, lack
                                              of
                                              dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand
                                              how
                                              this evolved into what it is.

                                              I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm,
                                              it
                                              must be, you all have reacted in strange ways. Yet
                                              nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has been
                                              able to put feelings aside and think rationaly ..?

                                              Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i
                                              was
                                              making by calling me a medina? What is that
                                              supposed
                                              to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of
                                              intellect.

                                              Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I
                                              would
                                              of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation
                                              that
                                              if anything else we in this group should have been
                                              able to forsee and avoid this.

                                              Is this why people need a god?

                                              Tone ......
                                            • Tony Medina
                                              Listen you pompus ass, I don t know what your problem is, nor do i care, enough with the stupid rantings of yours. When you figure it out, then u can reply
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 4, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Listen you pompus ass,
                                                I don't know what your problem is, nor do i care,
                                                enough with the stupid rantings of yours.
                                                When you figure it out, then u can reply w/an
                                                intelligent response.

                                                Medina



                                                --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                > it'd seem you want to join in as well. i hope not.
                                                > threesome is enough, and
                                                > we don't need a medina to increase the heat. not
                                                > trying to discount u, i
                                                > hope u can see that.
                                                >
                                                > cheers,
                                                > james.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                                > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [existlist] What happened?
                                                > Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
                                                >
                                                > Hello all,
                                                > I've left for a few days, the conversation, lack
                                                > of
                                                > dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand how
                                                > this evolved into what it is.
                                                >
                                                > I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm, it
                                                > must be, you all have reacted in strange ways. Yet
                                                > nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has been
                                                > able to put feelings aside and think rationaly ..?
                                                >
                                                > Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i was
                                                > making by calling me a medina? What is that supposed
                                                > to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of
                                                > intellect.
                                                >
                                                > Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I would
                                                > of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation that
                                                > if anything else we in this group should have been
                                                > able to forsee and avoid this.
                                                >
                                                > Is this why people need a god?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Tone ......
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                > > self-righteous yulian.
                                                > >
                                                > > amused,
                                                > > james.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > From: "Yulian K. Gaard"
                                                > <cfp8142@...>
                                                > > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                                > > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000
                                                > >
                                                > > Let me know when someone have done something
                                                > about
                                                > > James through a
                                                > > private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving
                                                > > the club as I see
                                                > > no reason to have myself connected with such
                                                > people
                                                > > in any way. And I
                                                > > do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                                > > personal offences - if
                                                > > I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV
                                                > > not a philosophy
                                                > > group.
                                                > >
                                                > > Allways.
                                                > > Yulian
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                _________________________________________________________________
                                                > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                                > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > __________________________________________________
                                                > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute
                                                > with Yahoo! Messenger
                                                > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                >
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                                              • james tan
                                                ordinarily, i d have shoot u back. but by now, i m pretty bored of all this, so, call me any name u like, kick & shout if u like (i imagine u angrily pointing
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  ordinarily, i'd have shoot u back. but by now, i'm pretty bored of all this,
                                                  so, call me any name u like, kick & shout if u like (i imagine u angrily
                                                  pointing a accusing finger at me, just to add to the fun & fantasy - really,
                                                  i will not be reacting to u should ur future emails contain such words as
                                                  'pompus ass' or something like that - u can try me if u don't believe); i
                                                  think diana is right, stop all this; quarrelling no more, with this medina
                                                  or any medina. well, my apology if i have hurt ur ego in the past, or
                                                  anybody's else. such a mess...oh yes, i freely chose to be vitriolic, but
                                                  eduard, no hard feeling; just take it as a sparring session, when it's over,
                                                  it's over. the sun still shines. just feel a little sad over yulian's
                                                  departure, esp with his "been lovely being here" - so sentimental, touching,
                                                  sob.

                                                  cheers,
                                                  james.

                                                  believe me, all your subsequent attempts to provoke me will not work - u can
                                                  try. i have had enough of all these kind of exchanges.






                                                  From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [existlist] Medina this.
                                                  Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:09:07 -0700 (PDT)

                                                  Listen you pompus ass,
                                                  I don't know what your problem is, nor do i care,
                                                  enough with the stupid rantings of yours.
                                                  When you figure it out, then u can reply w/an
                                                  intelligent response.

                                                  Medina



                                                  --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                  > it'd seem you want to join in as well. i hope not.
                                                  > threesome is enough, and
                                                  > we don't need a medina to increase the heat. not
                                                  > trying to discount u, i
                                                  > hope u can see that.
                                                  >
                                                  > cheers,
                                                  > james.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                                  > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [existlist] What happened?
                                                  > Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
                                                  >
                                                  > Hello all,
                                                  > I've left for a few days, the conversation, lack
                                                  > of
                                                  > dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand how
                                                  > this evolved into what it is.
                                                  >
                                                  > I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm, it
                                                  > must be, you all have reacted in strange ways. Yet
                                                  > nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has been
                                                  > able to put feelings aside and think rationaly ..?
                                                  >
                                                  > Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i was
                                                  > making by calling me a medina? What is that supposed
                                                  > to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of
                                                  > intellect.
                                                  >
                                                  > Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I would
                                                  > of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation that
                                                  > if anything else we in this group should have been
                                                  > able to forsee and avoid this.
                                                  >
                                                  > Is this why people need a god?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Tone ......
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                  > > self-righteous yulian.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > amused,
                                                  > > james.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: "Yulian K. Gaard"
                                                  > <cfp8142@...>
                                                  > > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                                  > > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Let me know when someone have done something
                                                  > about
                                                  > > James through a
                                                  > > private e-mail any of you, till then I am leaving
                                                  > > the club as I see
                                                  > > no reason to have myself connected with such
                                                  > people
                                                  > > in any way. And I
                                                  > > do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                                  > > personal offences - if
                                                  > > I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the TV
                                                  > > not a philosophy
                                                  > > group.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Allways.
                                                  > > Yulian
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                                  > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > __________________________________________________
                                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                  > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute
                                                  > with Yahoo! Messenger
                                                  > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                                  > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                                  > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  __________________________________________________
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                                                  _________________________________________________________________
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                                                • Eduard Alf
                                                  hi james, I don t mind the vitriolic that much, but I would appreciate a reply which actually addresses the issue. I would presume that the idea here is to
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    hi james,

                                                    I don't mind the vitriolic that much, but I would
                                                    appreciate a reply which actually addresses the
                                                    issue. I would presume that the idea here is to
                                                    discuss things. I can duck the rocks, but I still
                                                    need something I can chew on.

                                                    by the way, "names", in contrast to what the song
                                                    says, do hurt.

                                                    eduard
                                                  • james tan
                                                    hi eduard, actually i did address the issue. for some reasons, u don t really see it. i did try to articulate, but i guess my delivery is not up to standard. i
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      hi eduard,

                                                      actually i did address the issue. for some reasons, u don't really see it. i
                                                      did try to articulate, but i guess my delivery is not up to standard. i fail
                                                      in my communication. my fault. but u know, let's drop it.

                                                      nevermind. doesn't matter anymore. it is not a life & death issue. why hurt
                                                      feeling for some pts in philosophy? no pt.


                                                      james.






                                                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Subject: RE: [existlist] Medina this.
                                                      Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 09:35:40 -0400

                                                      hi james,

                                                      I don't mind the vitriolic that much, but I would
                                                      appreciate a reply which actually addresses the
                                                      issue. I would presume that the idea here is to
                                                      discuss things. I can duck the rocks, but I still
                                                      need something I can chew on.

                                                      by the way, "names", in contrast to what the song
                                                      says, do hurt.

                                                      eduard



                                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                    • Tony Medina
                                                      Wow, ok cool, the pompus ass thing was kinda funny, its all i could think of. I waiting to hear from everyone.... Maybe we should do another thought
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Wow, ok cool,
                                                        the pompus ass thing was kinda funny, its all i
                                                        could think of.

                                                        I waiting to hear from everyone....
                                                        Maybe we should do another thought expierement, that
                                                        was fun.


                                                        T



                                                        --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                        > ordinarily, i'd have shoot u back. but by now, i'm
                                                        > pretty bored of all this,
                                                        > so, call me any name u like, kick & shout if u like
                                                        > (i imagine u angrily
                                                        > pointing a accusing finger at me, just to add to the
                                                        > fun & fantasy - really,
                                                        > i will not be reacting to u should ur future emails
                                                        > contain such words as
                                                        > 'pompus ass' or something like that - u can try me
                                                        > if u don't believe); i
                                                        > think diana is right, stop all this; quarrelling no
                                                        > more, with this medina
                                                        > or any medina. well, my apology if i have hurt ur
                                                        > ego in the past, or
                                                        > anybody's else. such a mess...oh yes, i freely chose
                                                        > to be vitriolic, but
                                                        > eduard, no hard feeling; just take it as a sparring
                                                        > session, when it's over,
                                                        > it's over. the sun still shines. just feel a little
                                                        > sad over yulian's
                                                        > departure, esp with his "been lovely being here" -
                                                        > so sentimental, touching,
                                                        > sob.
                                                        >
                                                        > cheers,
                                                        > james.
                                                        >
                                                        > believe me, all your subsequent attempts to provoke
                                                        > me will not work - u can
                                                        > try. i have had enough of all these kind of
                                                        > exchanges.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                                        > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: [existlist] Medina this.
                                                        > Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
                                                        >
                                                        > Listen you pompus ass,
                                                        > I don't know what your problem is, nor do i care,
                                                        > enough with the stupid rantings of yours.
                                                        > When you figure it out, then u can reply w/an
                                                        > intelligent response.
                                                        >
                                                        > Medina
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                        > > it'd seem you want to join in as well. i hope
                                                        > not.
                                                        > > threesome is enough, and
                                                        > > we don't need a medina to increase the heat. not
                                                        > > trying to discount u, i
                                                        > > hope u can see that.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > cheers,
                                                        > > james.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > From: Tony Medina <cunner@...>
                                                        > > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > Subject: [existlist] What happened?
                                                        > > Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hello all,
                                                        > > I've left for a few days, the conversation,
                                                        > lack
                                                        > > of
                                                        > > dialogue, such harch words, I do not understand
                                                        > how
                                                        > > this evolved into what it is.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I see this as some sort of sociological paradigm,
                                                        > it
                                                        > > must be, you all have reacted in strange ways.
                                                        > Yet
                                                        > > nobody in their ignorance, or stubborness has
                                                        > been
                                                        > > able to put feelings aside and think rationaly
                                                        > ..?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Was the wise guy who tried to discount a point i
                                                        > was
                                                        > > making by calling me a medina? What is that
                                                        > supposed
                                                        > > to mean, shame, what rancid degradation of
                                                        > > intellect.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Shame on you all for falling into this trap, I
                                                        > would
                                                        > > of hoped with all of the dialectic conversation
                                                        > that
                                                        > > if anything else we in this group should have
                                                        > been
                                                        > > able to forsee and avoid this.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Is this why people need a god?
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Tone ......
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- james tan <tyjfk@...> wrote:
                                                        > > > self-righteous yulian.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > amused,
                                                        > > > james.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > From: "Yulian K. Gaard"
                                                        > > <cfp8142@...>
                                                        > > > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > > Subject: [existlist] Been lovely being here.
                                                        > > > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 05:04:18 -0000
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Let me know when someone have done something
                                                        > > about
                                                        > > > James through a
                                                        > > > private e-mail any of you, till then I am
                                                        > leaving
                                                        > > > the club as I see
                                                        > > > no reason to have myself connected with such
                                                        > > people
                                                        > > > in any way. And I
                                                        > > > do not feel that I want my mailbox filled with
                                                        > > > personal offences - if
                                                        > > > I want such things I'll go watch a soap in the
                                                        > TV
                                                        > > > not a philosophy
                                                        > > > group.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Allways.
                                                        > > > Yulian
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        _________________________________________________________________
                                                        > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                                        > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > __________________________________________________
                                                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                        > > Make international calls for as low as
                                                        > $.04/minute
                                                        > > with Yahoo! Messenger
                                                        > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        _________________________________________________________________
                                                        > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                                        > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
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                                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                        > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute
                                                        > with Yahoo! Messenger
                                                        > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                                        >
                                                        >
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                                                      • C. S. Wyatt
                                                        If the tone is not civil, I will exercise the moderator s authority and set messages for approval from some individuals. I would prefer to remain on the
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Aug 5, 2001
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          If the tone is not civil, I will exercise the moderator's authority and set
                                                          messages for approval from some individuals. I would prefer to remain on the
                                                          sidelines for many discussions and not read my mail every hour.

                                                          Be polite, gentlemen. This is a discussion, not a bar hall debate.

                                                          Thank you,
                                                          C. S. Wyatt
                                                        • Jim Aiden
                                                          Diana, In response to your question about style and form when arguing philosophy........ There is a great deal of effective theology and philosophy that
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Aug 7, 2001
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Diana,

                                                            In response to your question about style and form when arguing
                                                            philosophy........

                                                            There is a great deal of effective theology and philosophy that
                                                            follows this principle. Schools of thought as diverse as
                                                            Existentialism to Zen (which is an extreme example of this technique).

                                                            The beauty (and pitfalls) of philosophy, is the ability to make
                                                            creative leaps of logic and emotion to domains that we lack direct
                                                            knowledge to yet resolve and explain. It touches on every aspect of
                                                            one's life, actions and wants. Democracy, capitalism, and the
                                                            scientific method, are all the children of philosophy. It is an
                                                            expression of our creativity and humanity.

                                                            Its not that I don't want to always explain things directly, but
                                                            sometimes people's minds are so emotionally biased by a situation or
                                                            semantics that they will just argue for the sake of argument, as
                                                            opposed to just listen and work with you to develop a thought to its
                                                            fruition. When you suddenly and radically upset a person's ideas of
                                                            life, it can be a very traumatic and antagonizing experience for them.
                                                            (i.e. Arguing the validity of Allah to a Muslim) Ideally it should
                                                            rather be a quiet journey of self-fulfillment. People need to find a
                                                            destination for themselves, by using a well labeled map, not be
                                                            dragged with chains.

                                                            I have no interest in hurting anyone's ego to further my personal
                                                            beliefs. I listen very carefully to what people say and take the best
                                                            of what I can make sense of and make it my own. What I give is just a
                                                            collection of simple ideas to bounce around in their heads without
                                                            judgement. Then I give another. Then another. If they reach the
                                                            destination of the complexity of my thought... then great (Notice I
                                                            don't say that they necessarily have to accept it as truth, but they
                                                            must reject it for the right reasons) And if they do not, then I
                                                            consider my approach flawed and re-evaluate it.

                                                            Although many might fault me for making the content too simplistic,
                                                            I do find it important to present abstract information in as
                                                            aesthetically pleasing format as possible. Otherwise you cannot
                                                            capture the imagination of the reader, nor effectively communicate
                                                            your message. Although the content is what is most important,
                                                            successful philosophy of the past has a great deal to do with art,
                                                            beauty and vision.

                                                            I use this forum as well as some other places to continue to
                                                            experiment and develop this skill and some other techniques I won't
                                                            get into right now. Although most of the people that I admire have
                                                            only spoken to me from the dead though books, much of how they say
                                                            things has a strange similarity about it.

                                                            After wasting time trying to fruitlessly make people understand
                                                            certain extremely abstract views of mine, I decided a while ago, I
                                                            could not disclose nor do justice to my deepest beliefs until my style
                                                            could reach the necessary level to convey a rational AND EMOTIONALLY
                                                            sensical meaning and deliverable to my audience. Your analogy of the
                                                            similarities between effective art and philosophy are spot on. Keep
                                                            digging.

                                                            J. Aiden


                                                            -------------------------------
                                                            --- In existlist@y..., "Diana" <da-sein@e...> wrote:
                                                            > << Sometimes the best way to discuss things, is not to talk of them
                                                            > at all. To lead a person's mind in a certain direction to prep their
                                                            > mind so that they can make the jump to understanding without shoving
                                                            > it down their throat. >>
                                                            >
                                                            > Yes, this is in order to allow them to *experience* the truth of
                                                            what
                                                            > you want to convey. I find this to be the most wonderful way to
                                                            > express some idea.
                                                            >
                                                            > This is actually what artists are trying to do: a work of art
                                                            > discloses some truth to you - by allowing you to experience it.
                                                            >
                                                            > I cannot resist giving you a quote on Heidegger's reading of Van
                                                            > Gogh's painting "A pair of boots" (depicting a pair of peasant
                                                            shoes).
                                                            >
                                                            > "Van Gogh's painting is the *disclosure* of what the equipment, the
                                                            > pair of peasant shoes, is in truth.... This entity emerges into the
                                                            > *unconcealment of its own being*", by way of the *mediation* of the
                                                            > work of art, which draws the whole absent world and earth into
                                                            > revelation around itself..." (Frederic Jameson, "Culture" –
                                                            > commenting on Heidegger's "Origin of a Work of Art")
                                                            >
                                                            > So you mean that philosophers could do the same?
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