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Re: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?

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  • ricardo cardoba
    hi diana yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason? a first point i d like to make - and i ll probably be shot down in flames - is that you ve
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
      hi diana

      yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
      a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
      shot down in flames - is that you've described the
      azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
      mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
      out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
      living in southern France in the twelfth century
      (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
      to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
      inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
      Christian?

      And yet, Christianity has guided us to this point. (Or
      would it be more accurate to say that Plato's idealism
      has guided us to this point?!)

      This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
      putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;
      yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
      the individual), scientific theories which purport to
      explain reality and which have certainly shaped our
      understanding of reality (although there's no evidence
      that contemporary scientific truths are any more valid
      than the notion that the Earth is the centre of the
      universe), and ideologies which have possibly done
      more to distort the human social reality than two
      thousand years of christianity.

      Just a thought...

      Warm regards

      Ricardo

      --- Diana <da-sein@...> wrote:
      > << [...] but at the pont that choice is made, it is
      > certain that this
      > was the right choice. >>
      >
      > This concerns the problem of the authenticity of
      > choices. What makes
      > a choice authentic?
      >
      > You seem to be saying that an authentic choice is
      > one that comports
      > with one's own values. Such a choice is always
      > right,
      > because `conformity to one's values' is itself the
      > criterion for the
      > rightness of a choice.
      >
      > The Azande men's choice seems authentic, because it
      > comports with
      > their own values. They value the custom, the
      > mystical, rather than
      > reason.
      >
      > But still, how have the Azande � the whole tribe -
      > came to value the
      > custom? And why most Westerners value reason?
      >
      >


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    • Diana
      ... Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical reality, one that cannot be proved with reason. ... Oh, however my statement sounded, it is
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
        Ricardo:
        > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
        > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
        > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
        > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
        > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
        > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
        > living in southern France in the twelfth century
        > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
        > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
        > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
        > Christian?

        Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
        reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

        Ricardo:
        > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
        > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

        Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

        I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
        concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
        immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the other
        hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
        still be detached from my actual life.

        And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead thing.
        Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression that
        Aiden is going along the same lines.

        > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
        > the individual [...]

        Can you elucidate a bit further?

        Thanks,
        Diana
      • Will P. Sheils
        Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list? ... From: Diana Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject:
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
          Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Diana
          Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Cc:
          Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



          Ricardo:
          > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
          > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
          > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
          > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
          > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
          > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
          > living in southern France in the twelfth century
          > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
          > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
          > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
          > Christian?

          Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
          reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

          Ricardo:
          > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
          > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

          Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

          I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
          concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
          immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
          other
          hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
          still be detached from my actual life.

          And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
          thing.
          Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
          that
          Aiden is going along the same lines.

          > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
          > the individual [...]

          Can you elucidate a bit further?

          Thanks,
          Diana


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • james tan
          u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at the
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
            u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some
            neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at
            the bottom of each posting.

            respectfully submitted,
            james.






            From: "Will P. Sheils" <wpsheils@...>
            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>, <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?
            Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:09:51 -0400

            Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Diana
            Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Cc:
            Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



            Ricardo:
            > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
            > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
            > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
            > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
            > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
            > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
            > living in southern France in the twelfth century
            > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
            > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
            > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
            > Christian?

            Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
            reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

            Ricardo:
            > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
            > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

            Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

            I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
            concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
            immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
            other
            hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
            still be detached from my actual life.

            And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
            thing.
            Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
            that
            Aiden is going along the same lines.

            > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
            > the individual [...]

            Can you elucidate a bit further?

            Thanks,
            Diana


            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Eduard Alf
            folks, yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one has provided any proof that the conventional god exists.
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
              folks,

              yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
              experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
              has provided any proof that the conventional god
              exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
              have missed some email that provided such proof.
              If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
              Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
              the transmittance of light in space was concluded
              to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
              too, we can come to the same conclusion about
              "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
              a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
              that one cant be religious in the sense of
              appreciating ones role in nature or ones
              connectiveness in the universe. But the
              conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
              We have the answer and we can now move on.

              as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
              very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
              not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
              or objectives of the society. And since the
              thought experiment did not relate to time, it
              follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
              transcendent god that listens to prays and can
              intervene in our lives] has never existed.
              Although you might well say that we have a lot to
              learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
              And, considering what you have written in the
              past, I would guess that you would not press F12
              to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
              of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
              condition can be considered as an absolute. That
              is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
              that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
              have a prior awareness that pressing that button
              will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
              the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
              thing of the order of, "well, we are only
              kidding".

              im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
              computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
              what they have on the shelves. I feel like
              spending money. :-))

              eduard
            • james tan
              none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius is
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                respectfully submitted,
                james.






                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                folks,

                yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                has provided any proof that the conventional god
                exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                have missed some email that provided such proof.
                If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                that one cant be religious in the sense of
                appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                connectiveness in the universe. But the
                conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                We have the answer and we can now move on.

                as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                or objectives of the society. And since the
                thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                And, considering what you have written in the
                past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                kidding".

                im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                spending money. :-))

                eduard



                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
              • Eduard Alf
                dear james, what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was to propose a thought experiment to study was are the things that influence our decisions, our
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                  dear james,

                  what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                  to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                  the things that influence our decisions, our
                  choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                  life and death event, we are simply discussing
                  what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                  Subjects which I should think are within the
                  context of existentialism.

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                  Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                  exist and F12


                  none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                  very impressed by your
                  high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                  brillance. your ego & your genius
                  is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                  can see the way u see,
                  your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                  your knowledge, your
                  superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                  own ability. such depth of
                  self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                  & a einstein combined.

                  respectfully submitted,
                  james.
                • james tan
                  eduard, u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things. i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really. all u do is to
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                    eduard,

                    u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things.
                    i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really.

                    all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand (almost) nothing. you talk
                    about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a kind i have just met in my
                    entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the sheer variety of people on
                    this planet earth.

                    i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                    james.






                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                    Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                    Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:24:16 -0400

                    dear james,

                    what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                    to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                    the things that influence our decisions, our
                    choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                    life and death event, we are simply discussing
                    what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                    Subjects which I should think are within the
                    context of existentialism.

                    eduard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                    Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                    exist and F12


                    none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                    very impressed by your
                    high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                    brillance. your ego & your genius
                    is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                    can see the way u see,
                    your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                    your knowledge, your
                    superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                    own ability. such depth of
                    self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                    & a einstein combined.

                    respectfully submitted,
                    james.



                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                  • james tan
                    eduard, i give up....u win. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: Subject:
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                      eduard,

                      i give up....u win.

                      james.






                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: [existlist] purpose influencing our choices
                      Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:52:06 -0400

                      james,

                      well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                      time. You still have not offered any evidence
                      that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                      that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                      exist.

                      So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                      does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                      meaning from which we would make our choices and
                      thus our world.

                      eduard

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                      Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                      exist and F12

                      eduard,

                      u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                      whole load of other things.
                      i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                      u. really.

                      all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                      (almost) nothing. you talk
                      about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                      kind i have just met in my
                      entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                      sheer variety of people on
                      this planet earth.

                      i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                      james.



                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                    • Eduard Alf
                      james, well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this time. You still have not offered any evidence that god exists. My conclusion still stands ... that
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                        james,

                        well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                        time. You still have not offered any evidence
                        that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                        that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                        exist.

                        So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                        does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                        meaning from which we would make our choices and
                        thus our world.

                        eduard

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                        Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                        exist and F12

                        eduard,

                        u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                        whole load of other things.
                        i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                        u. really.

                        all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                        (almost) nothing. you talk
                        about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                        kind i have just met in my
                        entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                        sheer variety of people on
                        this planet earth.

                        i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                        james.
                      • Pravasan Pillay
                        aren t you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea s - well a lot more valuable than most of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 5, 2001
                          aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                          the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                          p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                          prava

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: james tan
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                          none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                          high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                          is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                          your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                          superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                          self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                          respectfully submitted,
                          james.






                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                          Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                          folks,

                          yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                          experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                          has provided any proof that the conventional god
                          exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                          have missed some email that provided such proof.
                          If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                          Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                          the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                          to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                          too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                          "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                          a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                          that one cant be religious in the sense of
                          appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                          connectiveness in the universe. But the
                          conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                          We have the answer and we can now move on.

                          as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                          very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                          not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                          or objectives of the society. And since the
                          thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                          follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                          transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                          intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                          Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                          learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                          And, considering what you have written in the
                          past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                          to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                          of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                          condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                          is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                          that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                          have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                          will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                          the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                          thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                          kidding".

                          im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                          computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                          what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                          spending money. :-))

                          eduard



                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Roggles457@aol.com
                          well, this is what I get when I m gone a week. As far as I m concerned, James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as for Pravas
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                            well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                            James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                            for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                            the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                            personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                            philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                            highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                            Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                            And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                            see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                            There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                            discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                            Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                            see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                            as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                            to judge all of us.
                            As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                            book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                            if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                            serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                            Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                            expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                            their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                            shame.

                            Ryan
                          • Pravasan Pillay
                            if you re trying to make me feel guilty it won t work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                              if you're trying to make me feel guilty it won't work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as arrogance...it doesn't really bother me...should i pretend to be fascinated by topics i got over in my teens?

                              what interests me in this group more than the topics is the methodology used in the arguments...i find eduard's style of reasoning very solid...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed reading them all if not actually participating...
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Roggles457@...
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                              well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                              James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                              for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                              the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                              personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                              philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                              highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                              Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                              And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                              see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                              There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                              discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                              Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                              see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                              as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                              to judge all of us.
                              As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                              book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                              if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                              serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                              Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                              expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                              their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                              shame.

                              Ryan

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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • samuel hecht
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT Roggles457@... writes:
                                > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                > concerned,
                                > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this.
                                > But as
                                > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek
                                > to let
                                > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                > us. I
                                > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics
                                > of
                                > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who
                                > are
                                > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                > philosophy.
                                > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                > things.
                                > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would
                                > like to
                                > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                > philosophy.
                                > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                > always be
                                > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                > impression. You
                                > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to
                                > the group
                                > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                > your part
                                > to judge all of us.
                                > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly
                                > sound
                                > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                > anyone, even
                                > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading
                                > it. It
                                > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for
                                > me.
                                > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like
                                > this to
                                > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking
                                > them for
                                > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point.
                                > What a
                                > shame.
                                >
                                >
                                > Ryan
                                >
                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                >
                                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • james tan
                                gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i m afraid i will not take your
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                  gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                  one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                  your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                  be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                  cheers,
                                  james.






                                  From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                  Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                  aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                  i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                  of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                  presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                  a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                  when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                  about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                  grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                  having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                  the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                  what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                  stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                  turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                  re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                  p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                  smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                  prava

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: james tan
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                  none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                  high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                  genius
                                  is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                  your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                  superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                  of
                                  self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                  respectfully submitted,
                                  james.






                                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                  Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                  folks,

                                  yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                  experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                  has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                  exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                  have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                  If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                  Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                  the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                  to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                  too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                  "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                  a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                  that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                  appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                  connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                  conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                  We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                  as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                  very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                  not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                  or objectives of the society. And since the
                                  thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                  follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                  transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                  intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                  Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                  learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                  And, considering what you have written in the
                                  past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                  to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                  of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                  condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                  is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                  that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                  have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                  will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                  the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                  thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                  kidding".

                                  im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                  computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                  what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                  spending money. :-))

                                  eduard



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                                • james tan
                                  i regret that what was started doesn t seems to be able to stop. it appears to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is already
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                    i regret that what was started doesn't seems to be able to stop. it appears
                                    to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is
                                    already enjoying his summer vacation & moving on, but some seems to catch
                                    it.






                                    From: Roggles457@...
                                    Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                    Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT

                                    well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                    James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                    for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                    the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                    personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                    philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                    highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                    philosophy.
                                    Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                    And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                    see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                    There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                    discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                    Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression.
                                    You
                                    see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the
                                    group
                                    as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                    to judge all of us.
                                    As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                    book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                    if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                    serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                    Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this
                                    to
                                    expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                    their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                    shame.


                                    Ryan


                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                  • james tan
                                    wow, that is cool. great. cheers, james. From: Pravasan Pillay Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                      wow, that is cool. great.

                                      cheers,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:51:03 +0200

                                      i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry
                                      tree.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: james tan
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                      gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the
                                      only
                                      one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not
                                      take
                                      your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                      be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                      cheers,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                      aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits?
                                      personally
                                      i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than
                                      most
                                      of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                      presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is
                                      either
                                      a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                      when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond
                                      talking
                                      about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                      grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad
                                      about
                                      having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                      the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                      what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid
                                      and
                                      stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons
                                      of
                                      turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                      re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                      p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                      smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                      prava

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: james tan
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                      none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by
                                      your
                                      high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                      genius
                                      is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u
                                      see,
                                      your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge,
                                      your
                                      superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such
                                      depth
                                      of
                                      self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein
                                      combined.

                                      respectfully submitted,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                      folks,

                                      yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                      experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                      has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                      exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                      have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                      If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                      Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                      the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                      to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                      too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                      "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                      a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                      that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                      appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                      connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                      conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                      We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                      as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                      very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                      not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                      or objectives of the society. And since the
                                      thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                      follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                      transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                      intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                      Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                      learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                      And, considering what you have written in the
                                      past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                      to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                      of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                      condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                      is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                      that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                      have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                      will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                      the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                      thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                      kidding".

                                      im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                      computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                      what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                      spending money. :-))

                                      eduard



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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                      Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                                    • Pravasan Pillay
                                      i m cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree. ... From: james tan To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06,
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                        i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: james tan
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                        gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                        one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                        your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                        be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                        cheers,
                                        james.






                                        From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                        aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                        i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                        of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                        presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                        a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                        when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                        about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                        grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                        having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                        the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                        what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                        stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                        turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                        re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                        p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                        smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                        prava

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: james tan
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                        none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                        high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                        genius
                                        is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                        your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                        superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                        of
                                        self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                        respectfully submitted,
                                        james.






                                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                        folks,

                                        yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                        experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                        has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                        exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                        have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                        If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                        Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                        the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                        to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                        too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                        "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                        a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                        that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                        appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                        connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                        conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                        We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                        as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                        very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                        not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                        or objectives of the society. And since the
                                        thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                        follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                        transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                        intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                        Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                        learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                        And, considering what you have written in the
                                        past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                        to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                        of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                        condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                        is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                        that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                        have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                        will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                        the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                        thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                        kidding".

                                        im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                        computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                        what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                        spending money. :-))

                                        eduard



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Diana
                                        I did not follow the God s existence discussion so I won t judge who was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time already and my
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                          I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge who
                                          was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                          already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                          you've made, Prasavan.

                                          Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                          won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get on
                                          with some other things.

                                          Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                          Diana

                                          --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                          ...
                                          ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                          not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                          posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                          reading them all if not actually participating...
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Roggles457@a...
                                          > To: existlist@y...
                                          > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                          concerned,
                                          > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                          this. But as
                                          > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                          seek to let
                                          > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                          us. I
                                          > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                          topics of
                                          > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those
                                          who are
                                          > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                          philosophy.
                                          > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                          things.
                                          > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                          would like to
                                          > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                          philosophy.
                                          > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                          always be
                                          > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                          > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                          impression. You
                                          > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them
                                          to the group
                                          > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                          your part
                                          > to judge all of us.
                                          > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                          perfectly sound
                                          > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                          anyone, even
                                          > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                          reading it. It
                                          > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough
                                          for me.
                                          > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                          like this to
                                          > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                          mocking them for
                                          > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                          point. What a
                                          > shame.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          Ryan
                                          >
                                          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                          >
                                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                          > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                          Service.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Diana
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                            << ... is quite different from the one you've made, Prasavan. >>

                                            Sorry: ... the one you've GOT.
                                            The way I wrote it first it alters the meaning, I think.

                                            Richard, pleased to see you here. You are like a cold shower, but I
                                            find those points you made worth to reflect on.

                                            --- In existlist@y..., "Diana" <da-sein@e...> wrote:
                                            > I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge
                                            who
                                            > was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                            > already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                            > you've made, Prasavan.
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                            > won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get
                                            on
                                            > with some other things.
                                            >
                                            > Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                            > Diana
                                            >
                                            > --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                            > ...
                                            > ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                            > not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                            > posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                            > reading them all if not actually participating...
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: Roggles457@a...
                                            > > To: existlist@y...
                                            > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                            > > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                            > concerned,
                                            > > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                            > this. But as
                                            > > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                            > seek to let
                                            > > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest
                                            of
                                            > us. I
                                            > > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                            > topics of
                                            > > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even
                                            those
                                            > who are
                                            > > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics
                                            of
                                            > philosophy.
                                            > > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the
                                            fundamental
                                            > things.
                                            > > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                            > would like to
                                            > > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                            > philosophy.
                                            > > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they
                                            will
                                            > always be
                                            > > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                            > > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                            > impression. You
                                            > > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of
                                            them
                                            > to the group
                                            > > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant
                                            on
                                            > your part
                                            > > to judge all of us.
                                            > > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                            > perfectly sound
                                            > > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                            > anyone, even
                                            > > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                            > reading it. It
                                            > > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good
                                            enough
                                            > for me.
                                            > > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                            > like this to
                                            > > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                            > mocking them for
                                            > > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                            > point. What a
                                            > > shame.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Ryan
                                            > >
                                            > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                            > >
                                            > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                            > Service.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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