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Re: is certainty essential?

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  • Diana
    This concerns the problem of the authenticity of choices. What
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
      << [...] but at the pont that choice is made, it is certain that this
      was the right choice. >>

      This concerns the problem of the authenticity of choices. What makes
      a choice authentic?

      You seem to be saying that an authentic choice is one that comports
      with one's own values. Such a choice is always right,
      because `conformity to one's values' is itself the criterion for the
      rightness of a choice.

      The Azande men's choice seems authentic, because it comports with
      their own values. They value the custom, the mystical, rather than
      reason.

      But still, how have the Azande – the whole tribe - came to value the
      custom? And why most Westerners value reason?
    • ricardo cardoba
      hi diana yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason? a first point i d like to make - and i ll probably be shot down in flames - is that you ve
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
        hi diana

        yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
        a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
        shot down in flames - is that you've described the
        azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
        mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
        out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
        living in southern France in the twelfth century
        (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
        to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
        inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
        Christian?

        And yet, Christianity has guided us to this point. (Or
        would it be more accurate to say that Plato's idealism
        has guided us to this point?!)

        This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
        putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;
        yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
        the individual), scientific theories which purport to
        explain reality and which have certainly shaped our
        understanding of reality (although there's no evidence
        that contemporary scientific truths are any more valid
        than the notion that the Earth is the centre of the
        universe), and ideologies which have possibly done
        more to distort the human social reality than two
        thousand years of christianity.

        Just a thought...

        Warm regards

        Ricardo

        --- Diana <da-sein@...> wrote:
        > << [...] but at the pont that choice is made, it is
        > certain that this
        > was the right choice. >>
        >
        > This concerns the problem of the authenticity of
        > choices. What makes
        > a choice authentic?
        >
        > You seem to be saying that an authentic choice is
        > one that comports
        > with one's own values. Such a choice is always
        > right,
        > because `conformity to one's values' is itself the
        > criterion for the
        > rightness of a choice.
        >
        > The Azande men's choice seems authentic, because it
        > comports with
        > their own values. They value the custom, the
        > mystical, rather than
        > reason.
        >
        > But still, how have the Azande � the whole tribe -
        > came to value the
        > custom? And why most Westerners value reason?
        >
        >


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      • Diana
        ... Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical reality, one that cannot be proved with reason. ... Oh, however my statement sounded, it is
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
          Ricardo:
          > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
          > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
          > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
          > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
          > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
          > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
          > living in southern France in the twelfth century
          > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
          > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
          > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
          > Christian?

          Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
          reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

          Ricardo:
          > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
          > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

          Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

          I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
          concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
          immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the other
          hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
          still be detached from my actual life.

          And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead thing.
          Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression that
          Aiden is going along the same lines.

          > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
          > the individual [...]

          Can you elucidate a bit further?

          Thanks,
          Diana
        • Will P. Sheils
          Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list? ... From: Diana Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject:
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
            Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Diana
            Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Cc:
            Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



            Ricardo:
            > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
            > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
            > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
            > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
            > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
            > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
            > living in southern France in the twelfth century
            > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
            > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
            > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
            > Christian?

            Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
            reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

            Ricardo:
            > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
            > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

            Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

            I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
            concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
            immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
            other
            hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
            still be detached from my actual life.

            And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
            thing.
            Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
            that
            Aiden is going along the same lines.

            > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
            > the individual [...]

            Can you elucidate a bit further?

            Thanks,
            Diana


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          • james tan
            u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at the
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
              u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some
              neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at
              the bottom of each posting.

              respectfully submitted,
              james.






              From: "Will P. Sheils" <wpsheils@...>
              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>, <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?
              Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:09:51 -0400

              Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Diana
              Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



              Ricardo:
              > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
              > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
              > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
              > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
              > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
              > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
              > living in southern France in the twelfth century
              > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
              > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
              > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
              > Christian?

              Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
              reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

              Ricardo:
              > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
              > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

              Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

              I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
              concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
              immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
              other
              hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
              still be detached from my actual life.

              And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
              thing.
              Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
              that
              Aiden is going along the same lines.

              > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
              > the individual [...]

              Can you elucidate a bit further?

              Thanks,
              Diana


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              TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Eduard Alf
              folks, yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one has provided any proof that the conventional god exists.
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                folks,

                yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                has provided any proof that the conventional god
                exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                have missed some email that provided such proof.
                If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                that one cant be religious in the sense of
                appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                connectiveness in the universe. But the
                conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                We have the answer and we can now move on.

                as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                or objectives of the society. And since the
                thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                And, considering what you have written in the
                past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                kidding".

                im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                spending money. :-))

                eduard
              • james tan
                none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius is
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                  none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                  high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                  is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                  your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                  superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                  self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                  respectfully submitted,
                  james.






                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                  Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                  folks,

                  yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                  experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                  has provided any proof that the conventional god
                  exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                  have missed some email that provided such proof.
                  If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                  Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                  the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                  to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                  too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                  "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                  a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                  that one cant be religious in the sense of
                  appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                  connectiveness in the universe. But the
                  conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                  We have the answer and we can now move on.

                  as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                  very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                  not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                  or objectives of the society. And since the
                  thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                  follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                  transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                  intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                  Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                  learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                  And, considering what you have written in the
                  past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                  to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                  of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                  condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                  is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                  that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                  have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                  will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                  the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                  thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                  kidding".

                  im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                  computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                  what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                  spending money. :-))

                  eduard



                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                • Eduard Alf
                  dear james, what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was to propose a thought experiment to study was are the things that influence our decisions, our
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                    dear james,

                    what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                    to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                    the things that influence our decisions, our
                    choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                    life and death event, we are simply discussing
                    what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                    Subjects which I should think are within the
                    context of existentialism.

                    eduard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                    Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                    exist and F12


                    none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                    very impressed by your
                    high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                    brillance. your ego & your genius
                    is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                    can see the way u see,
                    your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                    your knowledge, your
                    superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                    own ability. such depth of
                    self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                    & a einstein combined.

                    respectfully submitted,
                    james.
                  • james tan
                    eduard, u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things. i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really. all u do is to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                      eduard,

                      u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things.
                      i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really.

                      all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand (almost) nothing. you talk
                      about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a kind i have just met in my
                      entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the sheer variety of people on
                      this planet earth.

                      i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                      james.






                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                      Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:24:16 -0400

                      dear james,

                      what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                      to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                      the things that influence our decisions, our
                      choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                      life and death event, we are simply discussing
                      what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                      Subjects which I should think are within the
                      context of existentialism.

                      eduard

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                      Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                      exist and F12


                      none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                      very impressed by your
                      high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                      brillance. your ego & your genius
                      is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                      can see the way u see,
                      your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                      your knowledge, your
                      superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                      own ability. such depth of
                      self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                      & a einstein combined.

                      respectfully submitted,
                      james.



                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                    • james tan
                      eduard, i give up....u win. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: Subject:
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                        eduard,

                        i give up....u win.

                        james.






                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [existlist] purpose influencing our choices
                        Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:52:06 -0400

                        james,

                        well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                        time. You still have not offered any evidence
                        that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                        that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                        exist.

                        So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                        does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                        meaning from which we would make our choices and
                        thus our world.

                        eduard

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                        Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                        exist and F12

                        eduard,

                        u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                        whole load of other things.
                        i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                        u. really.

                        all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                        (almost) nothing. you talk
                        about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                        kind i have just met in my
                        entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                        sheer variety of people on
                        this planet earth.

                        i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                        james.



                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      • Eduard Alf
                        james, well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this time. You still have not offered any evidence that god exists. My conclusion still stands ... that
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                          james,

                          well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                          time. You still have not offered any evidence
                          that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                          that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                          exist.

                          So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                          does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                          meaning from which we would make our choices and
                          thus our world.

                          eduard

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                          Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                          exist and F12

                          eduard,

                          u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                          whole load of other things.
                          i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                          u. really.

                          all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                          (almost) nothing. you talk
                          about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                          kind i have just met in my
                          entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                          sheer variety of people on
                          this planet earth.

                          i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                          james.
                        • Pravasan Pillay
                          aren t you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea s - well a lot more valuable than most of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 5, 2001
                            aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                            the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                            p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                            prava

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: james tan
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                            none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                            high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                            is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                            your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                            superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                            self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                            respectfully submitted,
                            james.






                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                            Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                            folks,

                            yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                            experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                            has provided any proof that the conventional god
                            exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                            have missed some email that provided such proof.
                            If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                            Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                            the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                            to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                            too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                            "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                            a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                            that one cant be religious in the sense of
                            appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                            connectiveness in the universe. But the
                            conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                            We have the answer and we can now move on.

                            as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                            very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                            not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                            or objectives of the society. And since the
                            thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                            follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                            transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                            intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                            Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                            learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                            And, considering what you have written in the
                            past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                            to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                            of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                            condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                            is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                            that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                            have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                            will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                            the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                            thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                            kidding".

                            im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                            computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                            what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                            spending money. :-))

                            eduard



                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Roggles457@aol.com
                            well, this is what I get when I m gone a week. As far as I m concerned, James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as for Pravas
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                              well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                              James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                              for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                              the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                              personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                              philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                              highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                              Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                              And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                              see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                              There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                              discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                              Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                              see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                              as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                              to judge all of us.
                              As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                              book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                              if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                              serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                              Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                              expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                              their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                              shame.

                              Ryan
                            • Pravasan Pillay
                              if you re trying to make me feel guilty it won t work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                if you're trying to make me feel guilty it won't work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as arrogance...it doesn't really bother me...should i pretend to be fascinated by topics i got over in my teens?

                                what interests me in this group more than the topics is the methodology used in the arguments...i find eduard's style of reasoning very solid...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed reading them all if not actually participating...
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Roggles457@...
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                                Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                                see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                                as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                to judge all of us.
                                As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                                expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                shame.

                                Ryan

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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • samuel hecht
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                  On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT Roggles457@... writes:
                                  > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                  > concerned,
                                  > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this.
                                  > But as
                                  > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek
                                  > to let
                                  > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                  > us. I
                                  > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics
                                  > of
                                  > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who
                                  > are
                                  > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                  > philosophy.
                                  > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                  > things.
                                  > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would
                                  > like to
                                  > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                  > philosophy.
                                  > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                  > always be
                                  > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                  > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                  > impression. You
                                  > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to
                                  > the group
                                  > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                  > your part
                                  > to judge all of us.
                                  > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly
                                  > sound
                                  > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                  > anyone, even
                                  > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading
                                  > it. It
                                  > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for
                                  > me.
                                  > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like
                                  > this to
                                  > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking
                                  > them for
                                  > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point.
                                  > What a
                                  > shame.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ryan
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                  >
                                  > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                  >
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                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • james tan
                                  gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i m afraid i will not take your
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                    gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                    one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                    your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                    be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                    cheers,
                                    james.






                                    From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                    Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                    Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                    aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                    i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                    of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                    presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                    a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                    when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                    about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                    grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                    having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                    the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                    what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                    stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                    turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                    re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                    p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                    smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                    prava

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: james tan
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                    none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                    high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                    genius
                                    is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                    your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                    superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                    of
                                    self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                    respectfully submitted,
                                    james.






                                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                    Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                    folks,

                                    yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                    experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                    has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                    exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                    have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                    If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                    Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                    the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                    to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                    too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                    "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                    a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                    that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                    appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                    connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                    conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                    We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                    as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                    very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                    not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                    or objectives of the society. And since the
                                    thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                    follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                    transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                    intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                    Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                    learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                    And, considering what you have written in the
                                    past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                    to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                    of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                    condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                    is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                    that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                    have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                    will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                    the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                    thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                    kidding".

                                    im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                    computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                    what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                    spending money. :-))

                                    eduard



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                                  • james tan
                                    i regret that what was started doesn t seems to be able to stop. it appears to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is already
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                      i regret that what was started doesn't seems to be able to stop. it appears
                                      to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is
                                      already enjoying his summer vacation & moving on, but some seems to catch
                                      it.






                                      From: Roggles457@...
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT

                                      well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                      James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                      for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                      the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                      personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                      philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                      highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                      philosophy.
                                      Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                      And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                      see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                      There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                      discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                      Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression.
                                      You
                                      see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the
                                      group
                                      as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                      to judge all of us.
                                      As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                      book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                      if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                      serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                      Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this
                                      to
                                      expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                      their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                      shame.


                                      Ryan


                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                    • james tan
                                      wow, that is cool. great. cheers, james. From: Pravasan Pillay Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                        wow, that is cool. great.

                                        cheers,
                                        james.






                                        From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:51:03 +0200

                                        i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry
                                        tree.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: james tan
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                        gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the
                                        only
                                        one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not
                                        take
                                        your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                        be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                        cheers,
                                        james.






                                        From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                        aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits?
                                        personally
                                        i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than
                                        most
                                        of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                        presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is
                                        either
                                        a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                        when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond
                                        talking
                                        about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                        grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad
                                        about
                                        having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                        the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                        what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid
                                        and
                                        stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons
                                        of
                                        turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                        re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                        p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                        smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                        prava

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: james tan
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                        none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by
                                        your
                                        high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                        genius
                                        is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u
                                        see,
                                        your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge,
                                        your
                                        superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such
                                        depth
                                        of
                                        self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein
                                        combined.

                                        respectfully submitted,
                                        james.






                                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                        folks,

                                        yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                        experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                        has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                        exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                        have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                        If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                        Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                        the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                        to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                        too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                        "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                        a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                        that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                        appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                        connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                        conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                        We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                        as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                        very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                        not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                        or objectives of the society. And since the
                                        thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                        follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                        transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                        intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                        Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                        learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                        And, considering what you have written in the
                                        past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                        to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                        of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                        condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                        is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                        that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                        have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                        will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                        the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                        thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                        kidding".

                                        im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                        computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                        what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                        spending money. :-))

                                        eduard



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

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                                      • Pravasan Pillay
                                        i m cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree. ... From: james tan To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06,
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                          i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: james tan
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                          gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                          one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                          your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                          be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                          cheers,
                                          james.






                                          From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                          aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                          i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                          of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                          presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                          a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                          when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                          about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                          grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                          having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                          the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                          what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                          stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                          turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                          re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                          p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                          smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                          prava

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: james tan
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                          none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                          high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                          genius
                                          is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                          your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                          superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                          of
                                          self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                          respectfully submitted,
                                          james.






                                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                          folks,

                                          yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                          experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                          has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                          exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                          have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                          If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                          Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                          the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                          to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                          too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                          "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                          a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                          that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                          appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                          connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                          conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                          We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                          as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                          very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                          not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                          or objectives of the society. And since the
                                          thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                          follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                          transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                          intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                          Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                          learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                          And, considering what you have written in the
                                          past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                          to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                          of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                          condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                          is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                          that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                          have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                          will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                          the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                          thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                          kidding".

                                          im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                          computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                          what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                          spending money. :-))

                                          eduard



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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Diana
                                          I did not follow the God s existence discussion so I won t judge who was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time already and my
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                            I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge who
                                            was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                            already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                            you've made, Prasavan.

                                            Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                            won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get on
                                            with some other things.

                                            Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                            Diana

                                            --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                            ...
                                            ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                            not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                            posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                            reading them all if not actually participating...
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Roggles457@a...
                                            > To: existlist@y...
                                            > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                            concerned,
                                            > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                            this. But as
                                            > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                            seek to let
                                            > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                            us. I
                                            > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                            topics of
                                            > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those
                                            who are
                                            > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                            philosophy.
                                            > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                            things.
                                            > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                            would like to
                                            > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                            philosophy.
                                            > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                            always be
                                            > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                            > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                            impression. You
                                            > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them
                                            to the group
                                            > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                            your part
                                            > to judge all of us.
                                            > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                            perfectly sound
                                            > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                            anyone, even
                                            > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                            reading it. It
                                            > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough
                                            for me.
                                            > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                            like this to
                                            > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                            mocking them for
                                            > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                            point. What a
                                            > shame.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Ryan
                                            >
                                            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                            >
                                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                            > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                            Service.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Diana
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                              << ... is quite different from the one you've made, Prasavan. >>

                                              Sorry: ... the one you've GOT.
                                              The way I wrote it first it alters the meaning, I think.

                                              Richard, pleased to see you here. You are like a cold shower, but I
                                              find those points you made worth to reflect on.

                                              --- In existlist@y..., "Diana" <da-sein@e...> wrote:
                                              > I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge
                                              who
                                              > was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                              > already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                              > you've made, Prasavan.
                                              >
                                              > Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                              > won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get
                                              on
                                              > with some other things.
                                              >
                                              > Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                              > Diana
                                              >
                                              > --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                              > ...
                                              > ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                              > not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                              > posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                              > reading them all if not actually participating...
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: Roggles457@a...
                                              > > To: existlist@y...
                                              > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                              > > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                              > concerned,
                                              > > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                              > this. But as
                                              > > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                              > seek to let
                                              > > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest
                                              of
                                              > us. I
                                              > > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                              > topics of
                                              > > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even
                                              those
                                              > who are
                                              > > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics
                                              of
                                              > philosophy.
                                              > > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the
                                              fundamental
                                              > things.
                                              > > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                              > would like to
                                              > > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                              > philosophy.
                                              > > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they
                                              will
                                              > always be
                                              > > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                              > > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                              > impression. You
                                              > > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of
                                              them
                                              > to the group
                                              > > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant
                                              on
                                              > your part
                                              > > to judge all of us.
                                              > > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                              > perfectly sound
                                              > > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                              > anyone, even
                                              > > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                              > reading it. It
                                              > > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good
                                              enough
                                              > for me.
                                              > > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                              > like this to
                                              > > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                              > mocking them for
                                              > > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                              > point. What a
                                              > > shame.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ryan
                                              > >
                                              > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                              > >
                                              > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                              > Service.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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