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is certainty essential?

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  • ricardo
    Bonjour tout le monde! have you heard of the Azande? the azande live in africa; when the tribe need to make an important decision, they consult an oracle
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
      Bonjour tout le monde!

      have you heard of the Azande? the azande live in africa; when the
      tribe need to make an important decision, they consult an oracle
      (which just so happens to be a chicken). The Oracle is asked a yes/no
      question and then fed a substance called benji - if the chicken
      lives: 'go for it'; if the chicken dies: 'bad idea'. Benji is
      composed mostly of arsenic. So, to recap: if the Azande have an
      important decision to make, they poison a chicken in order to seek
      guidance.

      NOW, we might view this as primitive or irrational or just plain
      crazy, after all we don't view chickens as the fount of wisdom, do
      we? Nevertheless, poisoning chickens has been a central feature of
      this community's life for countless generations; we could say it
      underpins the Azande's religion and culture. The question is: is it
      important that we know that feeding benji to a chicken will, 9 times
      out of 10, kill the chicken, generating a 'No' response to the
      particular question. Afterall, isn't the fact that individuals in
      Azande culture have thrived while they've been poisoning chickens the
      important issue?

      put another way, could you argue that their's is an inauthentic life
      since - compared with the rational european model - the Azande seem
      to be deeply mystified (this is not my view).

      If we create values and our perception generates meaning, doesn't our
      choice entail certainty - afterall, you wouldn't intentionally make
      the wrong choice, would you? this doesn't mean that your position
      will remain the same, immutable and certain , but at the pont that
      choice is made, it is certain that this was the right choice.

      Best wishes

      ricardo
    • Diana
      This concerns the problem of the authenticity of choices. What
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
        << [...] but at the pont that choice is made, it is certain that this
        was the right choice. >>

        This concerns the problem of the authenticity of choices. What makes
        a choice authentic?

        You seem to be saying that an authentic choice is one that comports
        with one's own values. Such a choice is always right,
        because `conformity to one's values' is itself the criterion for the
        rightness of a choice.

        The Azande men's choice seems authentic, because it comports with
        their own values. They value the custom, the mystical, rather than
        reason.

        But still, how have the Azande – the whole tribe - came to value the
        custom? And why most Westerners value reason?
      • ricardo cardoba
        hi diana yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason? a first point i d like to make - and i ll probably be shot down in flames - is that you ve
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
          hi diana

          yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
          a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
          shot down in flames - is that you've described the
          azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
          mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
          out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
          living in southern France in the twelfth century
          (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
          to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
          inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
          Christian?

          And yet, Christianity has guided us to this point. (Or
          would it be more accurate to say that Plato's idealism
          has guided us to this point?!)

          This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
          putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;
          yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
          the individual), scientific theories which purport to
          explain reality and which have certainly shaped our
          understanding of reality (although there's no evidence
          that contemporary scientific truths are any more valid
          than the notion that the Earth is the centre of the
          universe), and ideologies which have possibly done
          more to distort the human social reality than two
          thousand years of christianity.

          Just a thought...

          Warm regards

          Ricardo

          --- Diana <da-sein@...> wrote:
          > << [...] but at the pont that choice is made, it is
          > certain that this
          > was the right choice. >>
          >
          > This concerns the problem of the authenticity of
          > choices. What makes
          > a choice authentic?
          >
          > You seem to be saying that an authentic choice is
          > one that comports
          > with one's own values. Such a choice is always
          > right,
          > because `conformity to one's values' is itself the
          > criterion for the
          > rightness of a choice.
          >
          > The Azande men's choice seems authentic, because it
          > comports with
          > their own values. They value the custom, the
          > mystical, rather than
          > reason.
          >
          > But still, how have the Azande � the whole tribe -
          > came to value the
          > custom? And why most Westerners value reason?
          >
          >


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        • Diana
          ... Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical reality, one that cannot be proved with reason. ... Oh, however my statement sounded, it is
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
            Ricardo:
            > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
            > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
            > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
            > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
            > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
            > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
            > living in southern France in the twelfth century
            > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
            > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
            > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
            > Christian?

            Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
            reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

            Ricardo:
            > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
            > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

            Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

            I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
            concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
            immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the other
            hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
            still be detached from my actual life.

            And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead thing.
            Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression that
            Aiden is going along the same lines.

            > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
            > the individual [...]

            Can you elucidate a bit further?

            Thanks,
            Diana
          • Will P. Sheils
            Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list? ... From: Diana Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Cc: Subject:
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 2, 2001
              Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Diana
              Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



              Ricardo:
              > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
              > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
              > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
              > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
              > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
              > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
              > living in southern France in the twelfth century
              > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
              > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
              > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
              > Christian?

              Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
              reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

              Ricardo:
              > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
              > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

              Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

              I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
              concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
              immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
              other
              hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
              still be detached from my actual life.

              And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
              thing.
              Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
              that
              Aiden is going along the same lines.

              > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
              > the individual [...]

              Can you elucidate a bit further?

              Thanks,
              Diana


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • james tan
              u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at the
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                u need not talk to anybody; u only need to have a pair of working eyes, some
                neurons that is hooked up & some common sense to read the instructions at
                the bottom of each posting.

                respectfully submitted,
                james.






                From: "Will P. Sheils" <wpsheils@...>
                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>, <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?
                Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:09:51 -0400

                Who do I need to talk to in order to get my email off the list?


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Diana
                Sent: Thu 8/2/2001 11:02 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Cc:
                Subject: [existlist] Re: is certainty essential?



                Ricardo:
                > yes indeed, why have westerners come to value reason?
                > a first point i'd like to make - and i'll probably be
                > shot down in flames - is that you've described the
                > azande condition as "(valuing) the custom, the
                > mystical, rather than reason". Would this statement be
                > out of place when describing, for example, a peasant
                > living in southern France in the twelfth century
                > (although rather than talking to a chicken, he talks
                > to an imaginary 'God'). In fact, would it be
                > inappropriate when referring to a contemporary
                > Christian?

                Yes, sure. In all these cases people believe in some mystical
                reality, one that cannot be proved with reason.

                Ricardo:
                > [...]This leads me to my second point. you also seem to be
                > putting a higher value on reason than on mysticism;

                Oh, however my statement sounded, it is actually the opposite.

                I've started to realize that reasoning rather distracts me from
                concentration and understanding of my *actual experiences*. My
                immediate experiences are the source of truth. Reason, one the
                other
                hand, can build nice and neat theories, but these theories could
                still be detached from my actual life.

                And also - do we need to build a theory? A theory is a dead
                thing.
                Perhaps we should develop an *ability*. I got the impression
                that
                Aiden is going along the same lines.

                > yet what has reason wrought? mass society (subsuming
                > the individual [...]

                Can you elucidate a bit further?

                Thanks,
                Diana


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                TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Eduard Alf
                folks, yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one has provided any proof that the conventional god exists.
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                  folks,

                  yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                  experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                  has provided any proof that the conventional god
                  exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                  have missed some email that provided such proof.
                  If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                  Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                  the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                  to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                  too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                  "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                  a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                  that one cant be religious in the sense of
                  appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                  connectiveness in the universe. But the
                  conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                  We have the answer and we can now move on.

                  as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                  very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                  not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                  or objectives of the society. And since the
                  thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                  follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                  transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                  intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                  Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                  learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                  And, considering what you have written in the
                  past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                  to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                  of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                  condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                  is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                  that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                  have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                  will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                  the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                  thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                  kidding".

                  im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                  computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                  what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                  spending money. :-))

                  eduard
                • james tan
                  none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius is
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                    none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                    high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                    is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                    your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                    superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                    self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                    respectfully submitted,
                    james.






                    From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                    Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                    Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                    folks,

                    yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                    experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                    has provided any proof that the conventional god
                    exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                    have missed some email that provided such proof.
                    If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                    Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                    the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                    to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                    too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                    "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                    a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                    that one cant be religious in the sense of
                    appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                    connectiveness in the universe. But the
                    conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                    We have the answer and we can now move on.

                    as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                    very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                    not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                    or objectives of the society. And since the
                    thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                    follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                    transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                    intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                    Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                    learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                    And, considering what you have written in the
                    past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                    to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                    of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                    condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                    is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                    that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                    have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                    will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                    the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                    thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                    kidding".

                    im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                    computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                    what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                    spending money. :-))

                    eduard



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                  • Eduard Alf
                    dear james, what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was to propose a thought experiment to study was are the things that influence our decisions, our
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                      dear james,

                      what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                      to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                      the things that influence our decisions, our
                      choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                      life and death event, we are simply discussing
                      what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                      Subjects which I should think are within the
                      context of existentialism.

                      eduard

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                      Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                      exist and F12


                      none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                      very impressed by your
                      high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                      brillance. your ego & your genius
                      is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                      can see the way u see,
                      your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                      your knowledge, your
                      superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                      own ability. such depth of
                      self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                      & a einstein combined.

                      respectfully submitted,
                      james.
                    • james tan
                      eduard, u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things. i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really. all u do is to
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                        eduard,

                        u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a whole load of other things.
                        i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by u. really.

                        all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand (almost) nothing. you talk
                        about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a kind i have just met in my
                        entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the sheer variety of people on
                        this planet earth.

                        i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                        james.






                        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                        Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:24:16 -0400

                        dear james,

                        what are you afraid of??? All that I did here was
                        to propose a thought experiment to study was are
                        the things that influence our decisions, our
                        choices. As I said before, james, this is not
                        life and death event, we are simply discussing
                        what might be considered as interesting subjects.
                        Subjects which I should think are within the
                        context of existentialism.

                        eduard

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                        Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 2:44 PM
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                        exist and F12


                        none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am
                        very impressed by your
                        high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your
                        brillance. your ego & your genius
                        is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody
                        can see the way u see,
                        your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence,
                        your knowledge, your
                        superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your
                        own ability. such depth of
                        self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton
                        & a einstein combined.

                        respectfully submitted,
                        james.



                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      • james tan
                        eduard, i give up....u win. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: Subject:
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                          eduard,

                          i give up....u win.

                          james.






                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [existlist] purpose influencing our choices
                          Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:52:06 -0400

                          james,

                          well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                          time. You still have not offered any evidence
                          that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                          that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                          exist.

                          So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                          does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                          meaning from which we would make our choices and
                          thus our world.

                          eduard

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                          Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                          exist and F12

                          eduard,

                          u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                          whole load of other things.
                          i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                          u. really.

                          all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                          (almost) nothing. you talk
                          about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                          kind i have just met in my
                          entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                          sheer variety of people on
                          this planet earth.

                          i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                          james.



                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                        • Eduard Alf
                          james, well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this time. You still have not offered any evidence that god exists. My conclusion still stands ... that
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 3, 2001
                            james,

                            well at least the gibberish is a bit shorter this
                            time. You still have not offered any evidence
                            that "god" exists. My conclusion still stands ...
                            that "God" [in the conventional sense] does not
                            exist.

                            So, given that we have the conclusion that god
                            does not exist, can we identify the purpose or
                            meaning from which we would make our choices and
                            thus our world.

                            eduard

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                            Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:29 AM
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [existlist] "god" is proven to not
                            exist and F12

                            eduard,

                            u assume i am afraid of something. & u assume a
                            whole load of other things.
                            i am not afraid of anything, i am just amazed by
                            u. really.

                            all u do is to assume, in essence. you understand
                            (almost) nothing. you talk
                            about everything. u are amazing. u are one of a
                            kind i have just met in my
                            entire life. u are a eye opener for me about the
                            sheer variety of people on
                            this planet earth.

                            i miss richard, not for his sake, but for my sake.

                            james.
                          • Pravasan Pillay
                            aren t you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea s - well a lot more valuable than most of
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 5, 2001
                              aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                              the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                              p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                              prava

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: james tan
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                              none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                              high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your genius
                              is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                              your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                              superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth of
                              self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                              respectfully submitted,
                              james.






                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                              Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                              folks,

                              yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                              experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                              has provided any proof that the conventional god
                              exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                              have missed some email that provided such proof.
                              If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                              Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                              the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                              to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                              too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                              "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                              a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                              that one cant be religious in the sense of
                              appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                              connectiveness in the universe. But the
                              conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                              We have the answer and we can now move on.

                              as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                              very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                              not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                              or objectives of the society. And since the
                              thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                              follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                              transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                              intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                              Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                              learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                              And, considering what you have written in the
                              past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                              to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                              of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                              condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                              is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                              that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                              have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                              will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                              the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                              thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                              kidding".

                              im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                              computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                              what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                              spending money. :-))

                              eduard



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                            • Roggles457@aol.com
                              well, this is what I get when I m gone a week. As far as I m concerned, James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as for Pravas
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                                Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                                see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                                as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                to judge all of us.
                                As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                                expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                shame.

                                Ryan
                              • Pravasan Pillay
                                if you re trying to make me feel guilty it won t work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                  if you're trying to make me feel guilty it won't work...why should i feel guilt about the inadequacies of other people? you can construe my attitude as arrogance...it doesn't really bother me...should i pretend to be fascinated by topics i got over in my teens?

                                  what interests me in this group more than the topics is the methodology used in the arguments...i find eduard's style of reasoning very solid...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed reading them all if not actually participating...
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Roggles457@...
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                  well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                  James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                  for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                  the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                  personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                  philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                  highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of philosophy.
                                  Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                  And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                  see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                  There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                  discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                  Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression. You
                                  see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the group
                                  as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                  to judge all of us.
                                  As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                  book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                  if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                  serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                  Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this to
                                  expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                  their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                  shame.

                                  Ryan

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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • samuel hecht
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                    On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT Roggles457@... writes:
                                    > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                    > concerned,
                                    > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this.
                                    > But as
                                    > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek
                                    > to let
                                    > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                    > us. I
                                    > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics
                                    > of
                                    > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who
                                    > are
                                    > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                    > philosophy.
                                    > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                    > things.
                                    > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would
                                    > like to
                                    > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                    > philosophy.
                                    > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                    > always be
                                    > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                    > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                    > impression. You
                                    > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to
                                    > the group
                                    > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                    > your part
                                    > to judge all of us.
                                    > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly
                                    > sound
                                    > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                    > anyone, even
                                    > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading
                                    > it. It
                                    > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for
                                    > me.
                                    > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like
                                    > this to
                                    > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking
                                    > them for
                                    > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point.
                                    > What a
                                    > shame.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ryan
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    >
                                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • james tan
                                    gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i m afraid i will not take your
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                      gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                      one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                      your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                      be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                      cheers,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                      aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                      i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                      of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                      presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                      a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                      when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                      about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                      grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                      having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                      the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                      what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                      stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                      turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                      re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                      p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                      smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                      prava

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: james tan
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                      none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                      high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                      genius
                                      is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                      your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                      superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                      of
                                      self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                      respectfully submitted,
                                      james.






                                      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                      Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                      folks,

                                      yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                      experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                      has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                      exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                      have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                      If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                      Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                      the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                      to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                      too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                      "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                      a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                      that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                      appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                      connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                      conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                      We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                      as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                      very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                      not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                      or objectives of the society. And since the
                                      thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                      follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                      transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                      intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                      Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                      learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                      And, considering what you have written in the
                                      past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                      to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                      of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                      condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                      is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                      that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                      have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                      will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                      the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                      thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                      kidding".

                                      im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                      computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                      what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                      spending money. :-))

                                      eduard



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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                    • james tan
                                      i regret that what was started doesn t seems to be able to stop. it appears to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is already
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                        i regret that what was started doesn't seems to be able to stop. it appears
                                        to have some momentum, it seems to be contagious & passing on. eduard is
                                        already enjoying his summer vacation & moving on, but some seems to catch
                                        it.






                                        From: Roggles457@...
                                        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                        Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 04:00:32 EDT

                                        well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm concerned,
                                        James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as this. But as
                                        for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You seek to let
                                        the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of us. I
                                        personally think that insulting people for discussing basic topics of
                                        philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those who are
                                        highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                        philosophy.
                                        Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental things.
                                        And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I would like to
                                        see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of philosophy.
                                        There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will always be
                                        discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                        Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an impression.
                                        You
                                        see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them to the
                                        group
                                        as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on your part
                                        to judge all of us.
                                        As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a perfectly sound
                                        book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so anyone, even
                                        if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job reading it. It
                                        serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough for me.
                                        Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups like this
                                        to
                                        expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you mocking them for
                                        their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some point. What a
                                        shame.


                                        Ryan


                                        _________________________________________________________________
                                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                      • james tan
                                        wow, that is cool. great. cheers, james. From: Pravasan Pillay Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To:
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                          wow, that is cool. great.

                                          cheers,
                                          james.






                                          From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:51:03 +0200

                                          i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry
                                          tree.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: james tan
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                          gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the
                                          only
                                          one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not
                                          take
                                          your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                          be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                          cheers,
                                          james.






                                          From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                          aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits?
                                          personally
                                          i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than
                                          most
                                          of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                          presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is
                                          either
                                          a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                          when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond
                                          talking
                                          about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                          grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad
                                          about
                                          having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                          the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                          what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid
                                          and
                                          stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons
                                          of
                                          turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                          re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                          p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                          smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                          prava

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: james tan
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                          none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by
                                          your
                                          high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                          genius
                                          is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u
                                          see,
                                          your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge,
                                          your
                                          superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such
                                          depth
                                          of
                                          self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein
                                          combined.

                                          respectfully submitted,
                                          james.






                                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                          Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                          folks,

                                          yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                          experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                          has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                          exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                          have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                          If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                          Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                          the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                          to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                          too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                          "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                          a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                          that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                          appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                          connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                          conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                          We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                          as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                          very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                          not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                          or objectives of the society. And since the
                                          thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                          follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                          transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                          intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                          Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                          learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                          And, considering what you have written in the
                                          past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                          to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                          of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                          condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                          is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                          that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                          have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                          will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                          the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                          thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                          kidding".

                                          im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                          computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                          what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                          spending money. :-))

                                          eduard



                                          _________________________________________________________________
                                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          _________________________________________________________________
                                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


                                          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

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                                        • Pravasan Pillay
                                          i m cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree. ... From: james tan To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 6, 2001
                                            i'm cool - as calm as a drop of dew on a leave of the healing syringa berry tree.
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: james tan
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:08 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12


                                            gee...u said everyone throwing tantrums & hissy fits? i think i was the only
                                            one. uncivil? i already admitted. cool it, prava. i'm afraid i will not take
                                            your advice & say "fuck u", either to u or eduard.

                                            be cool, try to relax..it's over. relax, pls.

                                            cheers,
                                            james.






                                            From: "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@...>
                                            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                            Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:22 +0200


                                            aren't you guys a bit old to be throwing tantrums and hissy fits? personally
                                            i think eduard has some valuable idea's - well a lot more valuable than most
                                            of the stuff i read from the rest of you guys. whats more is that he
                                            presents his ideas in a very succient, clear and readable way - he is either
                                            a philosopher or j.m. coetzee in disguise. people get very uncomfortable
                                            when confronted with a superior intellect. oh and try to get beyond talking
                                            about philosophy 101 topics...it embarrassing to see grown men and women
                                            grapple with fucking simplistic problems. why should eduard feel bad about
                                            having a better grasp on these problems than the rest of you?

                                            the impression i get is that very few of you actually have any idea about
                                            what you are talking about...your views on existentialism are very staid and
                                            stereotypical - lemme guess you guys drink a lot of coffee and smoke tons of
                                            turkish cigarrettes as well? well i suppose i leave you guys to go and
                                            re-read your well-worn copies of "existentialism is a humanism".

                                            p.s. james - if you're really pissed of with eduard don't try to be all
                                            smart about it - a solid "fuck you" would do just as well.

                                            prava

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: james tan
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 8:44 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12




                                            none is so blind as those who refuses to see. i am very impressed by your
                                            high iq, eduard. i am speechless by your brillance. your ego & your
                                            genius
                                            is unparalleled in all history of mankind. nobody can see the way u see,
                                            your depth, your wisdom, your sense of confidence, your knowledge, your
                                            superior intellect, your unwavering faith in your own ability. such depth
                                            of
                                            self efficiacy is enviable, truly. u are a newton & a einstein combined.

                                            respectfully submitted,
                                            james.






                                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Subject: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                            Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:27:03 -0400

                                            folks,

                                            yes, Tony, that is the result of the thought
                                            experiment. I put forth the conditions and no one
                                            has provided any proof that the conventional god
                                            exists. I am open to the possibility that I may
                                            have missed some email that provided such proof.
                                            If I did then perhaps someone could resend it.
                                            Anyway, thats the answer. "Ether" as a media for
                                            the transmittance of light in space was concluded
                                            to not exist because of the lack of any proof. So
                                            too, we can come to the same conclusion about
                                            "god". That is not to suggest that you cant have
                                            a dreamed up god or whatever. Neither does it say
                                            that one cant be religious in the sense of
                                            appreciating ones role in nature or ones
                                            connectiveness in the universe. But the
                                            conclusion of the non-existence of god is obvious.
                                            We have the answer and we can now move on.

                                            as to F12, I think Chris that you are taking a
                                            very pessimistic view. The fact that "god" does
                                            not exist, makes no difference as to the morality
                                            or objectives of the society. And since the
                                            thought experiment did not relate to time, it
                                            follows that "god" [in the conventional sense of a
                                            transcendent god that listens to prays and can
                                            intervene in our lives] has never existed.
                                            Although you might well say that we have a lot to
                                            learn, in general the present era is not that bad.
                                            And, considering what you have written in the
                                            past, I would guess that you would not press F12
                                            to "test the theory". But in any case, the aspect
                                            of a thought experiment is that what is given as a
                                            condition can be considered as an absolute. That
                                            is, there is no "testing". The provision of F12
                                            that will destroy the planet is absolute. You
                                            have a prior awareness that pressing that button
                                            will indeed destroy the world. You do not have
                                            the option, in a thought experiment, to say some
                                            thing of the order of, "well, we are only
                                            kidding".

                                            im going out now. To find a CAD program for my
                                            computer. And may just end up in Chapters to see
                                            what they have on the shelves. I feel like
                                            spending money. :-))

                                            eduard



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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Diana
                                            I did not follow the God s existence discussion so I won t judge who was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time already and my
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                              I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge who
                                              was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                              already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                              you've made, Prasavan.

                                              Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                              won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get on
                                              with some other things.

                                              Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                              Diana

                                              --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                              ...
                                              ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                              not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                              posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                              reading them all if not actually participating...
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: Roggles457@a...
                                              > To: existlist@y...
                                              > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                              concerned,
                                              > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                              this. But as
                                              > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                              seek to let
                                              > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest of
                                              us. I
                                              > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                              topics of
                                              > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even those
                                              who are
                                              > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics of
                                              philosophy.
                                              > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the fundamental
                                              things.
                                              > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                              would like to
                                              > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                              philosophy.
                                              > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they will
                                              always be
                                              > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                              > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                              impression. You
                                              > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of them
                                              to the group
                                              > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant on
                                              your part
                                              > to judge all of us.
                                              > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                              perfectly sound
                                              > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                              anyone, even
                                              > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                              reading it. It
                                              > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good enough
                                              for me.
                                              > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                              like this to
                                              > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                              mocking them for
                                              > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                              point. What a
                                              > shame.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              Ryan
                                              >
                                              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                              >
                                              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                              > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                              Service.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Diana
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Aug 7, 2001
                                                << ... is quite different from the one you've made, Prasavan. >>

                                                Sorry: ... the one you've GOT.
                                                The way I wrote it first it alters the meaning, I think.

                                                Richard, pleased to see you here. You are like a cold shower, but I
                                                find those points you made worth to reflect on.

                                                --- In existlist@y..., "Diana" <da-sein@e...> wrote:
                                                > I did not follow the God's existence discussion so I won't judge
                                                who
                                                > was right or wring. But I have been in this list for quite a time
                                                > already and my impression of James is quite different from the one
                                                > you've made, Prasavan.
                                                >
                                                > Perhaps I am adding to the pressure with this comment. At least I
                                                > won't bother you with any more comments for a while. I need to get
                                                on
                                                > with some other things.
                                                >
                                                > Don't relax yet, I'll be back later :-)
                                                > Diana
                                                >
                                                > --- In existlist@y..., "Pravasan Pillay" <pravasan@h...> wrote:
                                                > ...
                                                > ...that's why i was pissed off when james started attacking him and
                                                > not the the argument...the sure sign of a weak mind. recently the
                                                > posts to this group were getting very interesting and i enjoyed
                                                > reading them all if not actually participating...
                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > From: Roggles457@a...
                                                > > To: existlist@y...
                                                > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:00 AM
                                                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] "god" is proven to not exist and F12
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > well, this is what I get when I'm gone a week. As far as I'm
                                                > concerned,
                                                > > James mocking was completely uncalled for in a group such as
                                                > this. But as
                                                > > for Pravas last little tirade, that too was uncalled for. You
                                                > seek to let
                                                > > the bad example of one loudmouth taint the opinion of the rest
                                                of
                                                > us. I
                                                > > personally think that insulting people for discussing basic
                                                > topics of
                                                > > philosophy is a sign of condescendence on your part. Even
                                                those
                                                > who are
                                                > > highly regarded as philosophers continually discuss the basics
                                                of
                                                > philosophy.
                                                > > Those are philosophy 101 topics because those are the
                                                fundamental
                                                > things.
                                                > > And as far as grappling with "fucking simplistic problems" I
                                                > would like to
                                                > > see you provide foolproof solutions to the basic questions of
                                                > philosophy.
                                                > > There is always subjectivity on these issues, and thus they
                                                will
                                                > always be
                                                > > discussed, with no clear answer for them.
                                                > > Furthermore, your impression is precisely that, just an
                                                > impression. You
                                                > > see some inexperienced people, and apply your impression of
                                                them
                                                > to the group
                                                > > as a whole. That seems to be rather presumptious and arrogant
                                                on
                                                > your part
                                                > > to judge all of us.
                                                > > As for "Existentialism is a Humanism", it may not be a
                                                > perfectly sound
                                                > > book, but it serves as a good stepping stone. It is written so
                                                > anyone, even
                                                > > if not versed in philosophical terms, could do a decent job
                                                > reading it. It
                                                > > serves to get people interested in this, and that is good
                                                enough
                                                > for me.
                                                > > Everyone is new to this at some point. Some come to groups
                                                > like this to
                                                > > expand their horizons. And I am sad to see people like you
                                                > mocking them for
                                                > > their inexperience, an inexperience you must have had at some
                                                > point. What a
                                                > > shame.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Ryan
                                                > >
                                                > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                                > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                                > >
                                                > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > existlist-unsubscribe@y...
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                                > Service.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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