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Re: Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question

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  • Tom
    Charles Vermont wrote :- First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of assumptions. He is assuming: My intention was to contrive the situation to
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 30, 1999
      Charles Vermont wrote :-
      First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of assumptions. He is assuming:

      My intention was to contrive the situation to eradicate the possibility of uncertainty.

      The following are certainties and hence definite occurances. As sure as the sun will rise the next morning if you like.

      a.. The train will plummet into the canyon unless he does something - the driver of the train may become aware of the situation before the daughter reaches the button and save the train himself/herself.
      b.. His daughter will respond to his coercion - she may be young, but perhaps she is old enough to know when her father is acting against her own interests.
      c.. His daughter has time to reach the button before the train plummets into the canyon
      d.. He is too large to reach the button
      e.. He cannot reach the button using a tool
      f.. There is no one else around who can help him to push the button - a human chain at this point might help
      g.. That the passengers and crew on the train have not chosen to take a 'death trip'
    • Tom
      It s ok - you ve got all of it. ... From: Charles Vermont To: tjajones@msn.com Cc: Existentialism List Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31 Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi,
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 1999
        It's ok - you've got all of it.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Charles Vermont
        To: tjajones@...
        Cc: Existentialism List
        Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31
        Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question


        Tom,

        Please could you resend this since I seem to only have the first part of it.

        Thanks

        Charles Vermont

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tom <tjajones@...>
        To: existlist@onelist.com <existlist@onelist.com>
        Date: 30 July 1999 20:06
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question


        Charles Vermont wrote :-
        First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of assumptions. He is assuming:

        My intention was to contrive the situation to eradicate the possibility of uncertainty.

        The following are certainties and hence definite occurances. As sure as the sun will rise the next morning if you like.

        a.. The train will plummet into the canyon unless he does something - the driver of the train may become aware of the situation before the daughter reaches the button and save the train himself/herself.
        b.. His daughter will respond to his coercion - she may be young, but perhaps she is old enough to know when her father is acting against her own interests.
        c.. His daughter has time to reach the button before the train plummets into the canyon
        d.. He is too large to reach the button
        e.. He cannot reach the button using a tool
        f.. There is no one else around who can help him to push the button - a human chain at this point might help
        g.. That the passengers and crew on the train have not chosen to take a 'death trip'
      • Yana Youhana
        My dear friends, I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me is that every one seems to think the little girl has no brains!!!, to be quite honest
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 2, 1999
          My dear friends,

          I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me
          is that every one seems to think the little girl has
          no brains!!!, to be quite honest with you all, may be
          the "little girl" just tells her dad "to hell with you
          and all the people on the train, I am out of here" !?
          lets start from begining now;

          @ After the "little girl" does that what does her
          father do?

          @ do the people on the train know she has made that
          decision? :)

          @ How fast is the train going anyway?

          @ by the time the father grabs his "little girl",
          and tells her "you have moral obligation to kill yourself
          for those people, and I want you to do so" the train has
          reached the bottom of the canyon!

          @ if the train has sfely reached the original destination,
          the people will go back to that point looking for the "little
          girl" to ask her why she did not want to sacrifice herself for
          them.

          @ the father shoots his daughter and then himself so he
          wouldn't live with the guilt for the rest of his life.



          -
          Yana

          >From: "Tom" <tjajones@...>
          >Reply-To: existlist@onelist.com
          >To: <existlist@onelist.com>
          >Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
          >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:17:48 +0100
          >
          >It's ok - you've got all of it.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Charles Vermont
          > To: tjajones@...
          > Cc: Existentialism List
          > Sent: 01 August 1999 15:31
          > Subject: Fw: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
          >
          >
          > Tom,
          >
          > Please could you resend this since I seem to only have the first part of
          >it.
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Charles Vermont
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Tom <tjajones@...>
          > To: existlist@onelist.com <existlist@onelist.com>
          > Date: 30 July 1999 20:06
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Hi, and an Answer to Tom's question
          >
          >
          > Charles Vermont wrote :-
          > First of all, it seems to me the man is making a number of
          >assumptions. He is assuming:
          >
          > My intention was to contrive the situation to eradicate the possibility
          >of uncertainty.
          >
          > The following are certainties and hence definite occurances. As sure as
          >the sun will rise the next morning if you like.
          >
          > a.. The train will plummet into the canyon unless he does something
          >- the driver of the train may become aware of the situation before the
          >daughter reaches the button and save the train himself/herself.
          > b.. His daughter will respond to his coercion - she may be young,
          >but perhaps she is old enough to know when her father is acting against her
          >own interests.
          > c.. His daughter has time to reach the button before the train
          >plummets into the canyon
          > d.. He is too large to reach the button
          > e.. He cannot reach the button using a tool
          > f.. There is no one else around who can help him to push the button
          >- a human chain at this point might help
          > g.. That the passengers and crew on the train have not chosen to
          >take a 'death trip'
          >
        • Tom
          ... OK, from now on, the little girl is three year old with no amount of precocious development. This is the idea in my head that I had when I thought of the
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 5, 1999
            > I read ALL the replies and one thing that bothers me
            > is that every one seems to think the little girl has
            > no brains!!!, to be quite honest with you all, may be
            > the "little girl" just tells her dad "to hell with you
            > and all the people on the train, I am out of here" !?
            > lets start from begining now;

            OK, from now on, the little girl is three year old with no amount of
            precocious development. This is the idea in my head that I had when I
            thought of the situation and should have made it more clear. She's just a
            tiny kid - knows nothing and will most likely do anything her father tells
            her.

            > @ After the "little girl" does that what does her
            > father do?

            We haven't reached that point in time. To my mind, it has no bearing on the
            ethical dilemma. If you think it does then please elaborate. How do you
            think he should behave. You're assessing the choices after all.

            > @ do the people on the train know she has made that
            > decision? :)

            The father could tell them if he so wished. Let's say that they wouldn't
            see what she did however. What relevance does this have anyway?

            > @ How fast is the train going anyway?

            Irrelevant. See most recent post in response to Charles

            > @ by the time the father grabs his "little girl",
            > and tells her "you have moral obligation to kill yourself
            > for those people, and I want you to do so" the train has
            > reached the bottom of the canyon!

            Irrelevant. The situation is contrived to allow plenty of time for the
            little girl to follow his instuctions.

            > @ if the train has sfely reached the original destination,
            > the people will go back to that point looking for the "little
            > girl" to ask her why she did not want to sacrifice herself for
            > them.

            They'll be dead if she didn't sacrifice herself. She'll be dead if she did.
            The train still goes into the canyon if the little girl presses the button
            but the passengers are saved. I didn't say how this happened - maybe the
            train detaches itself from the carriages that will stop in plenty of time.
            It won't reach its destination either way.

            > @ the father shoots his daughter and then himself so he
            > wouldn't live with the guilt for the rest of his life.

            That is a possible decision that he could make.

            Tom
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