Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

free will

Expand Messages
  • uli@xxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx
    what am i missing about the free will? too much emphasis on it throws me into disquiet;it brings up visualizations of masses of people living under
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 6, 1999
      what am i missing about the free will?
      too much emphasis on it throws me into disquiet;it brings up visualizations of masses of people living under nondemocratic regims
      and /or extreme poverty.
      i may know the answer but still want to listen to other opinions
      delia
    • Meghan
      Delia wrote:
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 7, 1999
        Delia wrote:

        <<what am i missing about the free will? too much emphasis on it throws me
        into disquiet;it brings up visualizations of masses of people living under
        nondemocratic regims and /or extreme poverty.>>

        The basic working definition of "free will" that I've been encountering
        lately (mainly with Spinoza and Leibniz) is essentially "could have done
        otherwise." It doesn't mean that every option is eternally open, it means
        that people always have at least two options from which they can choose.

        So free will isn't absolute. Free will also does not make punishment an
        impossibility; by choosing to commit a crime you choose a path which could
        result in punishment --- free will also necessarily includes responsibility
        for one's actions, if one uses it as part of a moral system. This
        effectively lays to rest the idea of all people being free to do anything
        they want all the time, resulting in a Hobbsian vision of "the state of
        nature."

        I can't think of anyone who puts forth a really great argument for absolute
        free will, which would be impossible from a practical sense anyway --- two
        people with conflicting desires couldn't simultaneously act of their own
        free will, such as two guys who both want to sit in a certain chair at
        exactly 3:00 p.m. EST on November 7, 1999. And we all know what a
        contradiction does to a philosophical argument. :-)


        -Meghan

        p.s. What's wrong with a nondemocratic society? Some of us still think
        the whole philosopher-monarch idea is a darn good one. :-D [Note: I'm
        kidding. I've never missed voting in an election since I turned 18.]


        _____________________

        http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html

        "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."

        -- Rita Mae Brown
      • Tom J
        ... What exactly is an option in relation to choice? Tom
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 8, 1999
          > The basic working definition of "free will" that I've been encountering
          > lately (mainly with Spinoza and Leibniz) is essentially "could have done
          > otherwise." It doesn't mean that every option is eternally open, it means
          > that people always have at least two options from which they can choose.

          What exactly is an "option" in relation to choice?

          Tom
        • Droog237@xxx.xxx
          no offense, but how do I get off this list?
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 16, 1999
            no offense, but how do I get off this list?
          • Edward Alf
            james, interesting .... is it necessary that i have to tell whether a sentient being has free will or not ... in other words if such a being makes a decision,
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
              james,

              interesting ....

              is it necessary that i have to tell whether a sentient being has
              free will or not ... in other words if such a being makes a
              decision, do i have to become involved to determine whether or
              not this decision was made with free will ... i would suggest
              that it is not my responsibility to do so ... the only
              responsibility or involvement which i have is to determine if i
              myself have free will ... i grant that the question is posed in a
              general sense for everyone, but that is unavoidable ... if Sartre
              says there is free will (my understanding) then i should think
              that he is only speaking for himself ... or rather he is
              expressing an opinion which in the end can only be considered as
              his own view ... as it is for anyone making such statements ...

              my own feeling is that there is not free will ... under certain
              conditions, the sentient being makes a decision based upon
              factors that are outside of himself/herself ... and in this im
              presuming that the being who is making the decision is
              sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ...
              understandably this eliminates someone who is crazy ... i believe
              this is valid ... even Sartre whose existentialism is the subject
              of this list, would certainly not be writing with respect to
              people who are crazy ...

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 9:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
              disaster, he smudges formica and mikes a form


              >
              > eduard,
              >
              > how do you tell whether any mechanism has free will or not? any
              requirements
              > or criteria against which you could tell?
              >
              > james.
              >
              > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
              > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
              disaster, he
              > >smudges formica and mikes a form
              > >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:58:08 -0400
              > >
              > >Richard et folks,
              > >
              > >lets stick to the nuclear war pushbutton and not get into
              eating
              > >things ...
              > >
              > >it is easy to say that you have free will to not push the
              button
              > >... but do you really have free will to do the deed of pushing
              > >it? ...
              > >
              > >let me put it this way ... i could not push the button
              regardless
              > >of how angry i was at the world or however i might fantasy the
              > >end of mankind ... the reality is that at the moment when im
              > >poised over the button, i would not be able to push it ... i
              dont
              > >have complete free will ... in some instances, there is a
              certain
              > >responsibility or an awareness to not end life ... im not
              saying
              > >that the absence of free will is bad ... only that we are
              > >deluding ourselves in saying that there is complete "free"
              will
              > >...
              > >
              > >have fun ...
              > >
              > >eduard
              > >
              > >
              > >----- Original Message -----
              > >From: <thebookdoc@...>
              > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:55 AM
              > >Subject: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
              disaster,
              > >he smudges formica and mikes a form
              > >
              > >
              > > > <<lets leave the exceptions for the time being .... when
              you
              > >say
              > > > that you "probably would not", you are implying that there
              is
              > >some
              > > > influence that would cause you not to push the
              button...thus
              > >you do
              > > > not have free will ... you are free, but with some
              > >qualification ...>>
              > > >
              > > > I think you are took quick to 'thus' and not quick enough
              to
              > >ponder.
              > > >
              > > > I don't think I would be wrong to say this conclusion is
              > >entirely
              > > > wrong. By my free will I have chosen NOT to push it. If I
              > >choose it
              > > > is my choice, and my free will. No where did I say I COULD
              NOT
              > >push
              > > > it...just that I do not have the desire. I also don't have
              the
              > >desire
              > > > to eat excrement, murder, stab myself, or juggle jellie
              > > > beans...though each of these things is something I could
              > >possibly do.
              > > > I weigh, I make a choice. This is free will. Free will is
              not
              > > > necessarily doing something you are opposed to just because
              the
              > > > possibility exists. In any case, there are those that WOULD
              > >push
              > > > it...and so our natures are not the same. If I were you, I
              > >would be
              > > > convinced that human nature no longer exists from that
              > >conclusion.
              > > >
              > > > Nothing forces me to make the choices I make. However, if
              you
              > >force
              > > > me to make one, I will make the opposite one just to be
              > >perverse. So,
              > > > I changed my mind...and I am pressing the button. If for no
              > >other
              > > > reason that to end the conversation properly and perhaps
              remake
              > >it
              > > > all with a big bang. It is incidental that we all die in
              the
              > >process.
              > > > Oh, well.
              > > >
              > > > Now where are you.
              > > >
              > > > I'll get back to that other stuff later...but you keep
              bringing
              > >up
              > > > other directions (and egregious errors). We'll never get on
              at
              > >this
              > > > rate.
              > > >
              > > > RRLL_LRLRR_LRRRL
              > >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
              > >Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
              > > > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to
              rewarding
              > >and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
              > >chance to win
              > > > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
              > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
              > >
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              > >------_->
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              ________
              > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
              http://www.hotmail.com
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
              Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
              > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
              and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
              chance to win
              > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              ------_->
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • thebookdoc@aol.com
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                <<... and in this im presuming that the being who is making the
                decision is sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ...
                understandably this eliminates someone who is crazy ... i believe this
                is valid ... even Sartre whose existentialism is the subject of this
                list, would certainly not be writing with respect to people who are
                crazy ...>>

                2 things.

                1) Define 'crazy' with some accuracy and so that there are no
                exceptions to your definition.

                2) Better than all of your previous arguments where you ignore the
                point, you ignored an entire post. I very much enjoy that.

                RL&C&C.

                --------------------------------------------------
              • Edward Alf
                Richard et folks, hi Richard ... i really appreciate your comments ... forces me to think ... 1) how about the following for crazy from www.discovery.com
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                  Richard et folks,

                  hi Richard ... i really appreciate your comments ... forces me to
                  think ...

                  1) how about the following for "crazy" from www.discovery.com
                  ...

                  Affected with madness; insane.
                  Departing from proportion or moderation, especially:
                  Possessed by enthusiasm or excitement: The crowd at the game
                  went crazy.
                  Immoderately fond; infatuated: was crazy about boys.
                  Intensely involved or preoccupied: is crazy about cars and
                  racing.
                  Foolish or impractical; senseless: a crazy scheme for making
                  quick money.

                  2) i ignored a lot of the post because it would have taken too
                  long to answer everything ... i have to go into town to get an
                  oil change and remove the winter tires ....

                  have fun ....

                  eduard

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <thebookdoc@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 6:04 AM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Stomping on raisins makes less wine than
                  stomping on your foot...


                  > <<... and in this im presuming that the being who is making the
                  > decision is sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors
                  ...
                  > understandably this eliminates someone who is crazy ... i
                  believe this
                  > is valid ... even Sartre whose existentialism is the subject of
                  this
                  > list, would certainly not be writing with respect to people who
                  are
                  > crazy ...>>
                  >
                  > 2 things.
                  >
                  > 1) Define 'crazy' with some accuracy and so that there are no
                  > exceptions to your definition.
                  >
                  > 2) Better than all of your previous arguments where you ignore
                  the
                  > point, you ignored an entire post. I very much enjoy that.
                  >
                  > RL&C&C.
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                  Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                  > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
                  and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                  chance to win
                  > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                  > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                  > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  ------_->
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • james tan
                  and in this im presuming that the being who is making the decision is sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ... if you do not believe man has
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                    "and in this im presuming that the being who is making the decision is
                    sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ..."

                    if you do not believe man has free will, then can you clarify what you mean
                    by "making the decision" after weighing all factors??
                    and as far as morality is concerned, the 'ought' presume 'can'; i.e.
                    freedom; i.e. free will. in your scheme of things, how is morality possible?

                    james.


                    >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                    >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [existlist] free will
                    >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:39:19 -0400
                    >
                    >james,
                    >
                    >interesting ....
                    >
                    >is it necessary that i have to tell whether a sentient being has
                    >free will or not ... in other words if such a being makes a
                    >decision, do i have to become involved to determine whether or
                    >not this decision was made with free will ... i would suggest
                    >that it is not my responsibility to do so ... the only
                    >responsibility or involvement which i have is to determine if i
                    >myself have free will ... i grant that the question is posed in a
                    >general sense for everyone, but that is unavoidable ... if Sartre
                    >says there is free will (my understanding) then i should think
                    >that he is only speaking for himself ... or rather he is
                    >expressing an opinion which in the end can only be considered as
                    >his own view ... as it is for anyone making such statements ...
                    >
                    >my own feeling is that there is not free will ... under certain
                    >conditions, the sentient being makes a decision based upon
                    >factors that are outside of himself/herself ... and in this im
                    >presuming that the being who is making the decision is
                    >sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ...
                    >understandably this eliminates someone who is crazy ... i believe
                    >this is valid ... even Sartre whose existentialism is the subject
                    >of this list, would certainly not be writing with respect to
                    >people who are crazy ...
                    >
                    >eduard
                    >
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    >From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 9:50 PM
                    >Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
                    >disaster, he smudges formica and mikes a form
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > eduard,
                    > >
                    > > how do you tell whether any mechanism has free will or not? any
                    >requirements
                    > > or criteria against which you could tell?
                    > >
                    > > james.
                    > >
                    > > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                    > > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
                    >disaster, he
                    > > >smudges formica and mikes a form
                    > > >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:58:08 -0400
                    > > >
                    > > >Richard et folks,
                    > > >
                    > > >lets stick to the nuclear war pushbutton and not get into
                    >eating
                    > > >things ...
                    > > >
                    > > >it is easy to say that you have free will to not push the
                    >button
                    > > >... but do you really have free will to do the deed of pushing
                    > > >it? ...
                    > > >
                    > > >let me put it this way ... i could not push the button
                    >regardless
                    > > >of how angry i was at the world or however i might fantasy the
                    > > >end of mankind ... the reality is that at the moment when im
                    > > >poised over the button, i would not be able to push it ... i
                    >dont
                    > > >have complete free will ... in some instances, there is a
                    >certain
                    > > >responsibility or an awareness to not end life ... im not
                    >saying
                    > > >that the absence of free will is bad ... only that we are
                    > > >deluding ourselves in saying that there is complete "free"
                    >will
                    > > >...
                    > > >
                    > > >have fun ...
                    > > >
                    > > >eduard
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >----- Original Message -----
                    > > >From: <thebookdoc@...>
                    > > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:55 AM
                    > > >Subject: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
                    >disaster,
                    > > >he smudges formica and mikes a form
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > <<lets leave the exceptions for the time being .... when
                    >you
                    > > >say
                    > > > > that you "probably would not", you are implying that there
                    >is
                    > > >some
                    > > > > influence that would cause you not to push the
                    >button...thus
                    > > >you do
                    > > > > not have free will ... you are free, but with some
                    > > >qualification ...>>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think you are took quick to 'thus' and not quick enough
                    >to
                    > > >ponder.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't think I would be wrong to say this conclusion is
                    > > >entirely
                    > > > > wrong. By my free will I have chosen NOT to push it. If I
                    > > >choose it
                    > > > > is my choice, and my free will. No where did I say I COULD
                    >NOT
                    > > >push
                    > > > > it...just that I do not have the desire. I also don't have
                    >the
                    > > >desire
                    > > > > to eat excrement, murder, stab myself, or juggle jellie
                    > > > > beans...though each of these things is something I could
                    > > >possibly do.
                    > > > > I weigh, I make a choice. This is free will. Free will is
                    >not
                    > > > > necessarily doing something you are opposed to just because
                    >the
                    > > > > possibility exists. In any case, there are those that WOULD
                    > > >push
                    > > > > it...and so our natures are not the same. If I were you, I
                    > > >would be
                    > > > > convinced that human nature no longer exists from that
                    > > >conclusion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Nothing forces me to make the choices I make. However, if
                    >you
                    > > >force
                    > > > > me to make one, I will make the opposite one just to be
                    > > >perverse. So,
                    > > > > I changed my mind...and I am pressing the button. If for no
                    > > >other
                    > > > > reason that to end the conversation properly and perhaps
                    >remake
                    > > >it
                    > > > > all with a big bang. It is incidental that we all die in
                    >the
                    > > >process.
                    > > > > Oh, well.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now where are you.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'll get back to that other stuff later...but you keep
                    >bringing
                    > > >up
                    > > > > other directions (and egregious errors). We'll never get on
                    >at
                    > > >this
                    > > > > rate.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > RRLL_LRLRR_LRRRL
                    > > >
                    > > --------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    > > >Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                    > > > > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to
                    >rewarding
                    > > >and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                    > > >chance to win
                    > > > > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                    > > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                    > > >
                    > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > >------_->
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >_________________________________________________________________
                    >________
                    > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                    >http://www.hotmail.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                    >Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                    > > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
                    >and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                    >chance to win
                    > > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                    > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                    > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    >------_->
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________________
                    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                  • thebookdoc@aol.com
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                      <<Affected with madness; insane.
                      > Departing from proportion or moderation, especially:
                      > Possessed by enthusiasm or excitement: The crowd at the game
                      > went crazy.
                      > Immoderately fond; infatuated: was crazy about boys.
                      > Intensely involved or preoccupied: is crazy about cars and
                      > racing.
                      > Foolish or impractical; senseless: a crazy scheme for making
                      > quick money.>>

                      Thinking is not going to another resource for a definition. However,
                      this makes it easy.

                      According to this definition of insanity, everyone is insane. Let us
                      just say "eduard is impassioned about having Human Nature and
                      spirituality included in Existentialist thought", and that, by
                      definition, excludes you. I will be excluded voluntarily. Or don't I
                      have the free will to do that? Other people who I insult by this will
                      get insanely mad at me, insanely laughing, insanely ignoring the
                      gravity or hilariousness of the situation, etc...So you see, in some
                      form or other, we are all disqualified -- except the dead people, who
                      are not insane because they can't act that way, so they are more
                      qualified than I for inclusion, but less so than a snail. In other
                      words, we need to poll the snails about the clams and monkey brains,
                      else we'll make no sense of this whatever.

                      As you were all set to discount everyone who is insane from those who
                      should be considered, there is noone left to consider. Using logic
                      other than mine: If there are no test cases that fit the criteria,
                      the criteria is wrong. Not only is there no Human Nature...there are
                      no humans -- unless, of course, those humans are snails.

                      I quite agree with that, but for much more sensible reasons.

                      Still ready to press the button...and any time you tell me to I'll
                      refuse of my own free will...

                      RL&c.

                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                    • Edward Alf
                      james et folks, what i mean is that the person who is making the decision is sufficiently lucid to know what he/she is doing ... i dont think it is appropriate
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                        james et folks,

                        what i mean is that the person who is making the decision is
                        sufficiently lucid to know what he/she is doing ... i dont think
                        it is appropriate to bring into this the person who is so crazy
                        as to make any decision regardless of the consequences ...

                        what we are speaking about is a philosophy ... the possibility of
                        whether or not there is actually free will ... this requires that
                        those involved (those making the decision) are fully aware of
                        what they doing .. thus the ability to weigh all factors ...

                        i would presume that you would have the same requirement for the
                        position that there is free will ... afterall, it would not
                        present a sound case, if people making decisions were not capable
                        of understanding the factors ...

                        eduard

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 7:07 AM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] free will


                        >
                        > "and in this im presuming that the being who is making the
                        decision is
                        > sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ..."
                        >
                        > if you do not believe man has free will, then can you clarify
                        what you mean
                        > by "making the decision" after weighing all factors??
                        > and as far as morality is concerned, the 'ought' presume 'can';
                        i.e.
                        > freedom; i.e. free will. in your scheme of things, how is
                        morality possible?
                        >
                        > james.
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                        > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >Subject: Re: [existlist] free will
                        > >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:39:19 -0400
                        > >
                        > >james,
                        > >
                        > >interesting ....
                        > >
                        > >is it necessary that i have to tell whether a sentient being
                        has
                        > >free will or not ... in other words if such a being makes a
                        > >decision, do i have to become involved to determine whether or
                        > >not this decision was made with free will ... i would suggest
                        > >that it is not my responsibility to do so ... the only
                        > >responsibility or involvement which i have is to determine if
                        i
                        > >myself have free will ... i grant that the question is posed
                        in a
                        > >general sense for everyone, but that is unavoidable ... if
                        Sartre
                        > >says there is free will (my understanding) then i should think
                        > >that he is only speaking for himself ... or rather he is
                        > >expressing an opinion which in the end can only be considered
                        as
                        > >his own view ... as it is for anyone making such statements
                        ...
                        > >
                        > >my own feeling is that there is not free will ... under
                        certain
                        > >conditions, the sentient being makes a decision based upon
                        > >factors that are outside of himself/herself ... and in this im
                        > >presuming that the being who is making the decision is
                        > >sufficiently lucid to be able to weigh all factors ...
                        > >understandably this eliminates someone who is crazy ... i
                        believe
                        > >this is valid ... even Sartre whose existentialism is the
                        subject
                        > >of this list, would certainly not be writing with respect to
                        > >people who are crazy ...
                        > >
                        > >eduard
                        > >
                        > >----- Original Message -----
                        > >From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
                        > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 9:50 PM
                        > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
                        > >disaster, he smudges formica and mikes a form
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > eduard,
                        > > >
                        > > > how do you tell whether any mechanism has free will or not?
                        any
                        > >requirements
                        > > > or criteria against which you could tell?
                        > > >
                        > > > james.
                        > > >
                        > > > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                        > > > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and
                        counting
                        > >disaster, he
                        > > > >smudges formica and mikes a form
                        > > > >Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:58:08 -0400
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Richard et folks,
                        > > > >
                        > > > >lets stick to the nuclear war pushbutton and not get into
                        > >eating
                        > > > >things ...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >it is easy to say that you have free will to not push the
                        > >button
                        > > > >... but do you really have free will to do the deed of
                        pushing
                        > > > >it? ...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >let me put it this way ... i could not push the button
                        > >regardless
                        > > > >of how angry i was at the world or however i might fantasy
                        the
                        > > > >end of mankind ... the reality is that at the moment when
                        im
                        > > > >poised over the button, i would not be able to push it ...
                        i
                        > >dont
                        > > > >have complete free will ... in some instances, there is a
                        > >certain
                        > > > >responsibility or an awareness to not end life ... im not
                        > >saying
                        > > > >that the absence of free will is bad ... only that we are
                        > > > >deluding ourselves in saying that there is complete "free"
                        > >will
                        > > > >...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >have fun ...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >eduard
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >----- Original Message -----
                        > > > >From: <thebookdoc@...>
                        > > > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:55 AM
                        > > > >Subject: [existlist] Jiggling jellie beans and counting
                        > >disaster,
                        > > > >he smudges formica and mikes a form
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > <<lets leave the exceptions for the time being ....
                        when
                        > >you
                        > > > >say
                        > > > > > that you "probably would not", you are implying that
                        there
                        > >is
                        > > > >some
                        > > > > > influence that would cause you not to push the
                        > >button...thus
                        > > > >you do
                        > > > > > not have free will ... you are free, but with some
                        > > > >qualification ...>>
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think you are took quick to 'thus' and not quick
                        enough
                        > >to
                        > > > >ponder.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't think I would be wrong to say this conclusion
                        is
                        > > > >entirely
                        > > > > > wrong. By my free will I have chosen NOT to push it. If
                        I
                        > > > >choose it
                        > > > > > is my choice, and my free will. No where did I say I
                        COULD
                        > >NOT
                        > > > >push
                        > > > > > it...just that I do not have the desire. I also don't
                        have
                        > >the
                        > > > >desire
                        > > > > > to eat excrement, murder, stab myself, or juggle jellie
                        > > > > > beans...though each of these things is something I
                        could
                        > > > >possibly do.
                        > > > > > I weigh, I make a choice. This is free will. Free will
                        is
                        > >not
                        > > > > > necessarily doing something you are opposed to just
                        because
                        > >the
                        > > > > > possibility exists. In any case, there are those that
                        WOULD
                        > > > >push
                        > > > > > it...and so our natures are not the same. If I were
                        you, I
                        > > > >would be
                        > > > > > convinced that human nature no longer exists from that
                        > > > >conclusion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Nothing forces me to make the choices I make. However,
                        if
                        > >you
                        > > > >force
                        > > > > > me to make one, I will make the opposite one just to be
                        > > > >perverse. So,
                        > > > > > I changed my mind...and I am pressing the button. If
                        for no
                        > > > >other
                        > > > > > reason that to end the conversation properly and
                        perhaps
                        > >remake
                        > > > >it
                        > > > > > all with a big bang. It is incidental that we all die
                        in
                        > >the
                        > > > >process.
                        > > > > > Oh, well.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Now where are you.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I'll get back to that other stuff later...but you keep
                        > >bringing
                        > > > >up
                        > > > > > other directions (and egregious errors). We'll never
                        get on
                        > >at
                        > > > >this
                        > > > > > rate.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > RRLL_LRLRR_LRRRL
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                        > > > >Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                        > > > > > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to
                        > >rewarding
                        > > > >and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get
                        your
                        > > > >chance to win
                        > > > > > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                        > > > > >
                        http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > > >------_->
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        >
                        >________________________________________________________________
                        _
                        > >________
                        > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                        > >http://www.hotmail.com
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                        > >Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                        > > > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to
                        rewarding
                        > >and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                        > >chance to win
                        > > > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                        > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                        > >
                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        > >------_->
                        > > >
                        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        _________________________________________________________________
                        ________
                        > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                        http://www.hotmail.com
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                        Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                        > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
                        and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                        chance to win
                        > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                        > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                        ------_->
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Edward Alf
                        Richard et folks, i guess i gave you too much information in that definition ... my focus was on the last portion for foolish, impractical, senseless , but i
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                          Richard et folks,

                          i guess i gave you too much information in that definition ... my
                          focus was on the last portion for "foolish, impractical,
                          senseless", but i thought it would objected to as only part of
                          the definition given by www.discovery.com ...

                          anyway .. it is not true that im "impassioned about having Human
                          Nature and spirituality included in Existentialist thought" ...
                          if these are not presently included in existentialism, then it is
                          not my purpose to have them included ... im only bringing them up
                          as points of discussion in the light of existentialism ...

                          im only disqualifying or discounting exceptions that do not make
                          any sense within the discussion ... it is senseless to include
                          dead people in a discussion of human natures or of free will when
                          these relate to actions and responses for the which the dead are
                          not capable ...

                          yes, im set to discount all those who are insane ... but then i
                          certainly do not consider those who are on this list as being
                          insane ... or crazy ...

                          in any case, i think it is your turn to answer a question ...

                          1) can you please tell me how we can poll snails as to their
                          opinion on clams and monkey brains ... and ...
                          2) tell me how this in any way relates to existentialism or
                          philosophy ...

                          eduard

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <thebookdoc@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 12:27 PM
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: If one drinks while playing chess is he
                          a water chess nut?...


                          > <<Affected with madness; insane.
                          > > Departing from proportion or moderation, especially:
                          > > Possessed by enthusiasm or excitement: The crowd at the
                          game
                          > > went crazy.
                          > > Immoderately fond; infatuated: was crazy about boys.
                          > > Intensely involved or preoccupied: is crazy about cars
                          and
                          > > racing.
                          > > Foolish or impractical; senseless: a crazy scheme for
                          making
                          > > quick money.>>
                          >
                          > Thinking is not going to another resource for a definition.
                          However,
                          > this makes it easy.
                          >
                          > According to this definition of insanity, everyone is insane.
                          Let us
                          > just say "eduard is impassioned about having Human Nature and
                          > spirituality included in Existentialist thought", and that, by
                          > definition, excludes you. I will be excluded voluntarily. Or
                          don't I
                          > have the free will to do that? Other people who I insult by
                          this will
                          > get insanely mad at me, insanely laughing, insanely ignoring
                          the
                          > gravity or hilariousness of the situation, etc...So you see, in
                          some
                          > form or other, we are all disqualified -- except the dead
                          people, who
                          > are not insane because they can't act that way, so they are
                          more
                          > qualified than I for inclusion, but less so than a snail. In
                          other
                          > words, we need to poll the snails about the clams and monkey
                          brains,
                          > else we'll make no sense of this whatever.
                          >
                          > As you were all set to discount everyone who is insane from
                          those who
                          > should be considered, there is noone left to consider. Using
                          logic
                          > other than mine: If there are no test cases that fit the
                          criteria,
                          > the criteria is wrong. Not only is there no Human
                          Nature...there are
                          > no humans -- unless, of course, those humans are snails.
                          >
                          > I quite agree with that, but for much more sensible reasons.
                          >
                          > Still ready to press the button...and any time you tell me to
                          I'll
                          > refuse of my own free will...
                          >
                          > RL&c.
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                          Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                          > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
                          and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                          chance to win
                          > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                          ------_->
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • thebookdoc@aol.com
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 18, 2001
                            <<1) can you please tell me how we can poll snails as to their
                            > opinion on clams and monkey brains ... and ...
                            > 2) tell me how this in any way relates to existentialism or
                            > philosophy ...>>

                            We poll snails because they are apparently, if I follow your logic,
                            the last thing left standing. If I assume all people are crazy they
                            are all then exceptions (though if we are all crazy I find it
                            illogical that we are all exceptions based on that), and you said live
                            snails are more human than dead people...so snails have to be the
                            humans then. To poll them, I guess you have to get a few in a tank and
                            ask them. I can't help there...I don't have translation for snail. I
                            don't have any snails handy or I'd ask...do you have any there?

                            This relates to existentialism in that absurd arguments lead to absurd
                            ends. I find your arguments lack much but convenience for your current
                            point of view, and as the wind blows the sail sways. A logical
                            conclusion follows a logical path. This does not necessarily mean it
                            leads through that which is pleasant to think about. And perhaps the
                            logical end is an absurd one...who knows. I'm sure you do. You seem
                            very certain of everything until you change your mind.

                            <<im only disqualifying or discounting exceptions that do not make
                            any sense within the discussion ... it is senseless to include
                            dead people in a discussion of human natures or of free will when
                            these relate to actions and responses for the which the dead are
                            not capable ...>>

                            So now you are making judgments as to whether or not I make sense, and
                            disqualifying my opinion on basis of your arguments, which I do not
                            think are valid. I am mentioning dead people which are, for all
                            intents, at least recognizable as humanoid and wondering if they are
                            included in your subset of humans...yet you prefer snails as part of
                            the human subset...And my arguments are invalid?

                            To put it in another light, lets just say you were absolutely 'normal'
                            in every way shape and form. I would suggest that there would be few
                            people who could fit that category, and then the normal would be an
                            exception. I am sure you have had a crazy thought or two (um, snails =
                            humans...right.), and if not, then you are 'normal' and an exception.
                            Either way, you are no longer human. Don't ask me what you are till
                            you are dead, because then I know you are dead...whatever that is, but
                            it still isn't human. Unless I can just call you crazy, or an
                            exception and leave it at that -- at least then there is a name. It is
                            probably inapporpriate to call you dead. Perhaps you think you are a
                            snail? If so, stick your head in the tank and start asking.

                            <<yes, im set to discount all those who are insane ... but then i
                            certainly do not consider those who are on this list as being
                            insane ... or crazy ...>>

                            I most certainly am. Feel free to disprove me...but you are wrong. If
                            I say I am I must be, mustn't I? You use similar arguments as proof of
                            logic all the time.

                            <<i find that as i grow older there are more constraints on how i
                            would behave ... would it be accurate to say that as i grow older the
                            less free will i have ...>>

                            If I may be so bold...This probably has less to do with free will than
                            learning. If, in youth, I take a clipper and snip off a finger out of
                            curiosity, I will find I miss the finger later, and then probably not
                            do a second. I would suggest you are building a set of pat responses
                            over time as there is more experience to base a response on. This is
                            not to say you do not have the ability and FREE WILL to change that
                            response if you desire -- but you probably prefer not to. I would
                            rather not be so stupid as to live without the next finger having
                            learned about losing the first. The same idea goes for dying, which
                            perhaps most of us are not to eager in finding out about as it is said
                            we only do it once...though I am sure you will prove to me we do it
                            many times, more than some dead snails, but less than cats who have
                            the most lives at 9. I'm sure that is a fact, I read it on a cereal
                            box. Free will is the right to decide to do stupid things if you'd
                            like -- it doesn't mean you HAVE to do them, as if you are compelled
                            without any choice whatever, that would be a lack of free will. Do you
                            mean you feel confined by a lack of stupidity? Can you please try
                            demonstrating that here, I'm not sure I understand.

                            RLLRRRRL
                            -------------
                          • Edward Alf
                            Richard et all, again you do not answer the question ... you pose the possibility of polling snails and yet you avoid the issue of how this might be done ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 19, 2001
                              Richard et all,

                              again you do not answer the question ... you pose the possibility
                              of polling snails and yet you avoid the issue of how this might
                              be done ... the same goes for how this all relates to
                              existentialism ... you have not answered that one either ...
                              other than to say that absurd arguments lead to absurd ends ...
                              that is a cliché and does not give an explanation ...

                              yes, im making judgments as to whether or not you make sense, and
                              disqualifying your opinion on basis of my arguments ... that is
                              what discussion is all about ... i might on the other hand make
                              judgment that you are making sense, but what would be its basis?
                              ... how could i do this when you continue to bring in examples
                              and exceptions that do not relate to the discussion ... i accept
                              (and have said so before) that the dead are human, but only
                              within the context that they have human form ... they are not
                              human from the standpoint of having the actions and responses to
                              stimuli as of living humans ...

                              yes, growing older does relate to learning ... i should think
                              that would be obvious without being said ... it is the only thing
                              that really changes as far as ones mental processes are concerned
                              ... im basically the same person as i was as a child, i still
                              like childish things like splashing in a puddle ... what is added
                              is the experiences i have had and the lessons i learn from them
                              ... sure, i can still do stupid things and i can commit well
                              thought out mistakes ...

                              you point out that we only live once ... and i agree ... we dont
                              have several lives ... i would suggest that people who are young
                              do not really recognize death ... that it will eventually come
                              ... i think that this is reason for the manner in which they
                              sometimes exercise free will ... for example, jumping out of
                              aircraft is seen as an exhilarating experience ... but there is
                              always the potential for getting yourself killed ... an older
                              person would tend to realise that his/her end is coming in a
                              natural fashion and it is pointless to indulge in activities
                              which have the risk of bring this end sooner ...

                              i agree that free will is the right to decide to do stupid things
                              if you'd like .. and that it doesn't mean you HAVE to do them, as
                              if you are compelled without any choice whatever ... but what we
                              are agreeing on is that there is nothing which forces one to do
                              something stupid .. we disagree on the opposite ... that of my
                              point which is that there can be factors which compel you not to
                              do the stupid thing ... these factors can be experience, learning
                              or simply a sense of responsibility ... whatever ...

                              im still waiting for your answer on snails ... let me help .. it
                              would start off with, "i would poll snails for their opinion by
                              ...." ...

                              have fun ...

                              eduard
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <thebookdoc@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:46 PM
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: If a manatee were smart, it would get
                              sponsored by goodyear


                              >
                              > <<1) can you please tell me how we can poll snails as to
                              their
                              > > opinion on clams and monkey brains ... and ...
                              > > 2) tell me how this in any way relates to existentialism or
                              > > philosophy ...>>
                              >
                              > We poll snails because they are apparently, if I follow your
                              logic,
                              > the last thing left standing. If I assume all people are crazy
                              they
                              > are all then exceptions (though if we are all crazy I find it
                              > illogical that we are all exceptions based on that), and you
                              said live
                              > snails are more human than dead people...so snails have to be
                              the
                              > humans then. To poll them, I guess you have to get a few in a
                              tank and
                              > ask them. I can't help there...I don't have translation for
                              snail. I
                              > don't have any snails handy or I'd ask...do you have any there?
                              >
                              > This relates to existentialism in that absurd arguments lead to
                              absurd
                              > ends. I find your arguments lack much but convenience for your
                              current
                              > point of view, and as the wind blows the sail sways. A logical
                              > conclusion follows a logical path. This does not necessarily
                              mean it
                              > leads through that which is pleasant to think about. And
                              perhaps the
                              > logical end is an absurd one...who knows. I'm sure you do. You
                              seem
                              > very certain of everything until you change your mind.
                              >
                              > <<im only disqualifying or discounting exceptions that do not
                              make
                              > any sense within the discussion ... it is senseless to include
                              > dead people in a discussion of human natures or of free will
                              when
                              > these relate to actions and responses for the which the dead
                              are
                              > not capable ...>>
                              >
                              > So now you are making judgments as to whether or not I make
                              sense, and
                              > disqualifying my opinion on basis of your arguments, which I do
                              not
                              > think are valid. I am mentioning dead people which are, for all
                              > intents, at least recognizable as humanoid and wondering if
                              they are
                              > included in your subset of humans...yet you prefer snails as
                              part of
                              > the human subset...And my arguments are invalid?
                              >
                              > To put it in another light, lets just say you were absolutely
                              'normal'
                              > in every way shape and form. I would suggest that there would
                              be few
                              > people who could fit that category, and then the normal would
                              be an
                              > exception. I am sure you have had a crazy thought or two (um,
                              snails =
                              > humans...right.), and if not, then you are 'normal' and an
                              exception.
                              > Either way, you are no longer human. Don't ask me what you are
                              till
                              > you are dead, because then I know you are dead...whatever that
                              is, but
                              > it still isn't human. Unless I can just call you crazy, or an
                              > exception and leave it at that -- at least then there is a
                              name. It is
                              > probably inapporpriate to call you dead. Perhaps you think you
                              are a
                              > snail? If so, stick your head in the tank and start asking.
                              >
                              > <<yes, im set to discount all those who are insane ... but then
                              i
                              > certainly do not consider those who are on this list as being
                              > insane ... or crazy ...>>
                              >
                              > I most certainly am. Feel free to disprove me...but you are
                              wrong. If
                              > I say I am I must be, mustn't I? You use similar arguments as
                              proof of
                              > logic all the time.
                              >
                              > <<i find that as i grow older there are more constraints on how
                              i
                              > would behave ... would it be accurate to say that as i grow
                              older the
                              > less free will i have ...>>
                              >
                              > If I may be so bold...This probably has less to do with free
                              will than
                              > learning. If, in youth, I take a clipper and snip off a finger
                              out of
                              > curiosity, I will find I miss the finger later, and then
                              probably not
                              > do a second. I would suggest you are building a set of pat
                              responses
                              > over time as there is more experience to base a response on.
                              This is
                              > not to say you do not have the ability and FREE WILL to change
                              that
                              > response if you desire -- but you probably prefer not to. I
                              would
                              > rather not be so stupid as to live without the next finger
                              having
                              > learned about losing the first. The same idea goes for dying,
                              which
                              > perhaps most of us are not to eager in finding out about as it
                              is said
                              > we only do it once...though I am sure you will prove to me we
                              do it
                              > many times, more than some dead snails, but less than cats who
                              have
                              > the most lives at 9. I'm sure that is a fact, I read it on a
                              cereal
                              > box. Free will is the right to decide to do stupid things if
                              you'd
                              > like -- it doesn't mean you HAVE to do them, as if you are
                              compelled
                              > without any choice whatever, that would be a lack of free will.
                              Do you
                              > mean you feel confined by a lack of stupidity? Can you please
                              try
                              > demonstrating that here, I'm not sure I understand.
                              >
                              > RLLRRRRL
                              > -------------
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                              Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
                              > ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding
                              and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your
                              chance to win
                              > in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes!
                              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/AVnXlB/TM
                              > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                              ------_->
                              >
                              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                              >
                              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • adam robertson
                              Captain Jack, Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and shoot someone not be guided by past experiences with guns and shooting and your decision based on
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 23 4:44 AM
                                Captain Jack,

                                Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and shoot someone not be guided
                                by past experiences with guns and shooting and your decision based on those
                                experiences. If that is true then the will has been fettered by experience
                                and not truly free.

                                Adam


                                >From: "turkishrevenge" <cleko@...>
                                >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: [existlist] Re: free will
                                >Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 05:23:21 -0000
                                >
                                >The Christian Pessemistic viewpoint that the likes of Luther hold is
                                >something completely differnt. First you should define which free
                                >will is being affected. Luther bleived that we are destined to go to
                                >heaven or hell(for those of us who believe in that jazz) from the
                                >momeny we are born, and there is nothing we can do about it. Our
                                >path is set out before us, not matter what. A kind of fate maybe
                                >(once again fate has so many faces)
                                >
                                >I have a slightly more cynical view of free will. yes, i do beleive
                                >we can make our own choices. But as adam said, this can be fettered
                                >by experience. As a child we have an open view of the world, and can
                                >do whatever we want, yes? With a child mind, we could kill someone,
                                >and not feel regret, it hasnt been ingrained in us yet. not saying
                                >everyone needs to worry about an army of babies or anything. As that
                                >mind grows, it is changed by the society it inhabits. Our free will
                                >is hindered. We do not kill that person, because we are taught it is
                                >wrong, and because we dont want to suffer the consequences. (please
                                >excuse my spelling, it is late) I find that many people let their
                                >lives be affected by society and others as they grow more
                                >experienced. They wear something because it is cool. They still
                                >have the free will to choose what it is they wish to wear, but their
                                >choice is affected by others, who are colleuges and whatnot. Our
                                >free will exists, but it changes.
                                >
                                >--- In existlist@y..., "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                > > Adam,
                                > >
                                > > I think the point is that you always have free
                                > > will, regardless of experience. Even if you have
                                > > an experience which may influence your thinking,
                                > > that does not mean that you cant ignore the
                                > > influence and do something else. For example, my
                                > > experience is that one does not own a gun. But
                                > > then I could easily get one and shoot someone. So
                                > > I free will in that act. However, I also have to
                                > > take responsibility for it.
                                > >
                                > > captain jack,
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: adam robertson
                                > > [mailto:fresh_jiv@h...]
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 5:38 PM
                                > > To: existlist@y...
                                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Existentialism &
                                > > Abortion
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > hello,
                                > >
                                > > Im having a tough time understanding how the will
                                > > can be free when fettered
                                > > by experience. Any comments appreciated.
                                > >
                                > > Adam
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >From: "daniel_needles"
                                > > <Daniel.Needles@C...>
                                > > >Reply-To: existlist@y...
                                > > >To: existlist@y...
                                > > >Subject: [existlist] Re: Existentialism &
                                > > Abortion
                                > > >Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 04:36:54 -0000
                                > > >
                                > > >Hello,
                                > > > I was searching for a defintion of
                                > > Existentialism recently. The best
                                > > >description I got was from www.m-w.com believe it
                                > > or not:
                                > > >
                                > > >Main Entry: ex�is�ten�tial�ism
                                > > >Pronunciation: -'ten(t)-sh&-"li-z&m
                                > > >Function: noun
                                > > >Date: 1941
                                > > >: a chiefly 20th century philosophical movement
                                > > embracing diverse
                                > > >doctrines but centering on analysis of individual
                                > > existence in an
                                > > >unfathomable universe and the plight of the
                                > > individual who must
                                > > >assume ultimate responsibility for his acts of
                                > > free will without any
                                > > >certain knowledge of what is right or wrong or
                                > > good or bad
                                > > >
                                >




                                _________________________________________________________________
                                MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                                http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                              • Eduard Alf
                                Adam, Well I suppose that you could say that in order to do something, there has to be a visualization of how it would be done. As such any act can be seen as
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 23 5:54 AM
                                  Adam,

                                  Well I suppose that you could say that in order to
                                  do something, there has to be a visualization of
                                  how it would be done. As such any act can be seen
                                  as related to something previous. But then, I
                                  have had experiences with a gun [rifle], knife,
                                  heavy bat, etc., so I have a number of ways by
                                  which to kill someone. Surely I am free to choose
                                  which one I might use. Thus there is still free
                                  will.

                                  captain jack



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: adam robertson
                                  [mailto:fresh_jiv@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:45 AM
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: free will


                                  Captain Jack,

                                  Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and
                                  shoot someone not be guided
                                  by past experiences with guns and shooting and
                                  your decision based on those
                                  experiences. If that is true then the will has
                                  been fettered by experience
                                  and not truly free.

                                  Adam
                                • adam robertson
                                  Thankyou for your opininon, Adam ... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 23 2:15 PM
                                    Thankyou for your opininon,

                                    Adam


                                    >From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                    >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    >Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: free will
                                    >Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:54:15 -0400
                                    >
                                    >Adam,
                                    >
                                    >Well I suppose that you could say that in order to
                                    >do something, there has to be a visualization of
                                    >how it would be done. As such any act can be seen
                                    >as related to something previous. But then, I
                                    >have had experiences with a gun [rifle], knife,
                                    >heavy bat, etc., so I have a number of ways by
                                    >which to kill someone. Surely I am free to choose
                                    >which one I might use. Thus there is still free
                                    >will.
                                    >
                                    >captain jack
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                    >From: adam robertson
                                    >[mailto:fresh_jiv@...]
                                    >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:45 AM
                                    >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: free will
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Captain Jack,
                                    >
                                    >Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and
                                    >shoot someone not be guided
                                    >by past experiences with guns and shooting and
                                    >your decision based on those
                                    >experiences. If that is true then the will has
                                    >been fettered by experience
                                    >and not truly free.
                                    >
                                    >Adam
                                    >




                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
                                  • adam robertson
                                    I have recently found interest in psychology, and although it is a young science, are there any psychologists you would deem reputable. i recently read a
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 23 2:19 PM
                                      I have recently found interest in psychology, and although it is a young
                                      science, are there any psychologists you would deem reputable. i recently
                                      read a primer on freudian psychoanalysis and found many correlations between
                                      his theories and my everyday experience with friends, family , and
                                      strangers. But then i heard that new theories have debunked his work. Just
                                      curious if you could offer any advice.

                                      Adam


                                      >From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                      >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      >Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: free will
                                      >Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:54:15 -0400
                                      >
                                      >Adam,
                                      >
                                      >Well I suppose that you could say that in order to
                                      >do something, there has to be a visualization of
                                      >how it would be done. As such any act can be seen
                                      >as related to something previous. But then, I
                                      >have had experiences with a gun [rifle], knife,
                                      >heavy bat, etc., so I have a number of ways by
                                      >which to kill someone. Surely I am free to choose
                                      >which one I might use. Thus there is still free
                                      >will.
                                      >
                                      >captain jack
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >-----Original Message-----
                                      >From: adam robertson
                                      >[mailto:fresh_jiv@...]
                                      >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:45 AM
                                      >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: free will
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Captain Jack,
                                      >
                                      >Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and
                                      >shoot someone not be guided
                                      >by past experiences with guns and shooting and
                                      >your decision based on those
                                      >experiences. If that is true then the will has
                                      >been fettered by experience
                                      >and not truly free.
                                      >
                                      >Adam
                                      >




                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
                                    • daniel_needles
                                      Adam, If Freud works for you, I wouldn t shrug it off. When it comes down to it, IMHO your experience is all that counts. If you like Freud you might want to
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 23 2:42 PM
                                        Adam,
                                        If Freud works for you, I wouldn't shrug it off. When it comes down
                                        to it, IMHO your experience is all that counts. If you like Freud you
                                        might want to look into Jung and Campbell.

                                        Thanks,
                                        Daniel

                                        --- In existlist@y..., "adam robertson" <fresh_jiv@h...> wrote:
                                        > I have recently found interest in psychology, and although it is a
                                        young
                                        > science, are there any psychologists you would deem reputable. i
                                        recently
                                        > read a primer on freudian psychoanalysis and found many
                                        correlations between
                                        > his theories and my everyday experience with friends, family , and
                                        > strangers. But then i heard that new theories have debunked his
                                        work. Just
                                        > curious if you could offer any advice.
                                        >
                                        > Adam
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@v...>
                                        > >Reply-To: existlist@y...
                                        > >To: <existlist@y...>
                                        > >Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: free will
                                        > >Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:54:15 -0400
                                        > >
                                        > >Adam,
                                        > >
                                        > >Well I suppose that you could say that in order to
                                        > >do something, there has to be a visualization of
                                        > >how it would be done. As such any act can be seen
                                        > >as related to something previous. But then, I
                                        > >have had experiences with a gun [rifle], knife,
                                        > >heavy bat, etc., so I have a number of ways by
                                        > >which to kill someone. Surely I am free to choose
                                        > >which one I might use. Thus there is still free
                                        > >will.
                                        > >
                                        > >captain jack
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >-----Original Message-----
                                        > >From: adam robertson
                                        > >[mailto:fresh_jiv@h...]
                                        > >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:45 AM
                                        > >To: existlist@y...
                                        > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: free will
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >Captain Jack,
                                        > >
                                        > >Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and
                                        > >shoot someone not be guided
                                        > >by past experiences with guns and shooting and
                                        > >your decision based on those
                                        > >experiences. If that is true then the will has
                                        > >been fettered by experience
                                        > >and not truly free.
                                        > >
                                        > >Adam
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _________________________________________________________________
                                        > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
                                        http://mobile.msn.com
                                      • damiensscreename@aol.com
                                        My knowledge of psychology is limited but I do know that Freud is almost a dirty word to some people in psychology today. However, these same people often
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 23 2:57 PM
                                          My knowledge of psychology is limited but I do know that Freud is almost a
                                          dirty word to some people in psychology today. However, these same people
                                          often believe in many of the core ideas that Freud introduced to psychology
                                          while denying that they are influenced by him. I would say his ideas
                                          definitely have some merit but also have their shortcomings in some areas.
                                          Some of his ideas were pretty outlandish and almost none of them have any way
                                          of being tested!
                                          Damien
                                        • Eduard Alf
                                          Adam, I have no idea ... but there are some on this list who may well know ... I would leave it to them ... captain jack ... From: adam robertson
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 23 7:17 PM
                                            Adam,

                                            I have no idea ... but there are some on this list who may well know ... I
                                            would leave it to them ...

                                            captain jack
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: adam robertson [mailto:fresh_jiv@...]
                                            Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:20 PM
                                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: free will


                                            I have recently found interest in psychology, and although it is a young
                                            science, are there any psychologists you would deem reputable. i recently
                                            read a primer on freudian psychoanalysis and found many correlations
                                            between
                                            his theories and my everyday experience with friends, family , and
                                            strangers. But then i heard that new theories have debunked his work. Just
                                            curious if you could offer any advice.

                                            Adam


                                            >From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                            >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            >Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: free will
                                            >Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:54:15 -0400
                                            >
                                            >Adam,
                                            >
                                            >Well I suppose that you could say that in order to
                                            >do something, there has to be a visualization of
                                            >how it would be done. As such any act can be seen
                                            >as related to something previous. But then, I
                                            >have had experiences with a gun [rifle], knife,
                                            >heavy bat, etc., so I have a number of ways by
                                            >which to kill someone. Surely I am free to choose
                                            >which one I might use. Thus there is still free
                                            >will.
                                            >
                                            >captain jack
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >-----Original Message-----
                                            >From: adam robertson
                                            >[mailto:fresh_jiv@...]
                                            >Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:45 AM
                                            >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: free will
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Captain Jack,
                                            >
                                            >Would that choice of wanting to get the gun and
                                            >shoot someone not be guided
                                            >by past experiences with guns and shooting and
                                            >your decision based on those
                                            >experiences. If that is true then the will has
                                            >been fettered by experience
                                            >and not truly free.
                                            >
                                            >Adam
                                            >




                                            _________________________________________________________________
                                            Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


                                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            ADVERTISEMENT




                                            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                            (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

                                            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.