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Re: Emigre Existentialism

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  • louise
    Mary Jo, The view you take of monarchy is not unusual, though in Britain there s still immense popular loyalty to the Crown, under that surface of almost
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 1 4:43 PM
      Mary Jo,
      The view you take of monarchy is not unusual, though in Britain
      there's still immense popular loyalty to the Crown, under that
      surface of almost savage satirical edge to which all establishment
      is subject in our country. That loyalty and that satire, I believe,
      are intrinsic as guarantors of such freedom as we have. I do not
      see the monarch - and, since we happen to have such a virtuous
      exemplar on the throne at present, it's particularly straightforward
      to see this, I find - as a subjugating ruler, but as a figurehead
      who humanly represents the mythical aspect of what it is to be a
      nation. The Queen protects us, and upholds, at least symbolically,
      the rule of law. In addition, the hereditary principle ensures a
      long practice in diplomacy with foreign heads of state and with a
      succession of Prime Ministers, who can benefit from advice that is
      confidential and not given under the pressure of the need to seek
      election at the balllot-box.
      Different nations favour different expressions of the unifying
      myth. I'm much happier with our Queen than I would be with an
      elected President and a Marianne. Oh dear, I've got on to that
      perilous subject of the French, again.
      And I think it's a little dramatic to speak of our country as
      having 'lost' so many people to ventures abroad. To be sure, the
      history of persecutions, war, famine, is grim, but, in one form or
      another, universal to humanity. I get the impression that there are
      millions of people overseas, whether descended from native Saxo-
      Celts or not (and there just is no concise abbreviation that can
      encompass the complexities of settlement in our islands), who
      harbour genuine affection or love toward this country. And there is
      hostility and hatred also. I don't think the principle of kingship
      can find a place on the ethical/unethical scale - it is a matter of
      culture and politics, variable as to place and date.
      As for those Scots, they have a prominent place in British
      government these days; and they even have what England doesn't have -
      a specifically national parliament of their own - but that's too
      complex, and outside my competence, to do more than mention here.
      Louise



      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
      > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's been
      > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
      > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
      > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering. I don't
      > think that any other country has lost so many people. There are
      more
      > Irish, Scots and Welsh in other countries than in their countries
      of
      > origin. In total, it speaks of a history of philosophical
      > intolerance, racism, economic and cultural imperialism. I doubt
      that
      > if conditions had been more civilized, they would have risked
      their
      > lives sailing across oceans into foreign lands. There was no
      greater
      > personal risk and activism to be found, and it was a choice for
      life.
      > And though we are all now mostly of one political agenda, it's
      > amazing that kings and queens still sit on thrones, mostly
      usurped,
      > and are by and large the wealthiest in the world. Most of their
      > wealth is in oil. The word citizen is foreign to their ears,
      > preferring always "subject". There's so much oil and gas in
      Scotland,
      > that if it were to become sovereign, England would go bankrupt.
      >
      > Mary Jo
      >
      > By yon Castle wa', at the close of the day,
      > I heard a man sing, tho' his head it was grey:
      > And as he was singing, the tears doon came, -
      > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
      >
      > The Church is in ruins, the State is in jars,
      > Delusions, oppressions, and murderous wars,
      > We dare na weel say't, but we ken wha's to blame, -
      > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
      >
      > My seven braw sons for Jamie drew sword,
      > But now I greet round their green beds in the yerd;
      > It brak the sweet heart o' my faithful and dame, -
      > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
      >
      > Now life is a burden that bows me down,
      > Sin' I tint my bairns, and he tint his crown;
      > But till my last moments my words are the same, -
      > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
      >
      > There'll Never Be Peace Till Jamie Comes Hame
      > Robbie Burns - 1791
    • Mary Jo
      Louise, Surely you jest. She s a usurper along with her questionable
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 1 5:19 PM
        Louise,

        Surely you jest.

        <and, since we happen to have such a virtuous exemplar on the throne
        at present>

        She's a usurper along with her questionable bloodline, German's I
        believe.

        <The Queen protects us>

        No that would be the United States.

        <I'm much happier with our Queen than I would be with an elected
        President.>

        How tragic for you.

        <a specifically national parliament of their own - but that's too
        complex, and outside my competence>

        Not too complex, however a more substantial gesture than the return
        of the so-called Stone of Scone, ultimately an empty gesture since it
        was a forgery to begin with. They returned the fake.

        The Celtic exodus, while not "existentialist" in origin, is certainly
        in retrospect. Courageous activism.

        Did you simply miss the import of the Burns poem, or did you simply
        choose to ignore it? Surely you can translate it.

        Skeptical of any English gesture towards Highlands and Lowlands,
        Mary Jo

        Yes, yes. I know. You haven't a clue what I'm talking about.



        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...> wrote:
        > Mary Jo,
        > The view you take of monarchy is not unusual, though in Britain
        > there's still immense popular loyalty to the Crown, under that
        > surface of almost savage satirical edge to which all establishment
        > is subject in our country. That loyalty and that satire, I
        believe,
        > are intrinsic as guarantors of such freedom as we have. I do not
        > see the monarch - and, since we happen to have such a virtuous
        > exemplar on the throne at present, it's particularly
        straightforward
        > to see this, I find - as a subjugating ruler, but as a figurehead
        > who humanly represents the mythical aspect of what it is to be a
        > nation. The Queen protects us, and upholds, at least symbolically,
        > the rule of law. In addition, the hereditary principle ensures a
        > long practice in diplomacy with foreign heads of state and with a
        > succession of Prime Ministers, who can benefit from advice that is
        > confidential and not given under the pressure of the need to seek
        > election at the balllot-box.
        > Different nations favour different expressions of the unifying
        > myth. I'm much happier with our Queen than I would be with an
        > elected President and a Marianne. Oh dear, I've got on to that
        > perilous subject of the French, again.
        > And I think it's a little dramatic to speak of our country as
        > having 'lost' so many people to ventures abroad. To be sure, the
        > history of persecutions, war, famine, is grim, but, in one form or
        > another, universal to humanity. I get the impression that there
        are
        > millions of people overseas, whether descended from native Saxo-
        > Celts or not (and there just is no concise abbreviation that can
        > encompass the complexities of settlement in our islands), who
        > harbour genuine affection or love toward this country. And there
        is
        > hostility and hatred also. I don't think the principle of kingship
        > can find a place on the ethical/unethical scale - it is a matter of
        > culture and politics, variable as to place and date.
        > As for those Scots, they have a prominent place in British
        > government these days; and they even have what England doesn't
        have -
        > a specifically national parliament of their own - but that's too
        > complex, and outside my competence, to do more than mention here.
        > Louise
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
        > > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's
        been
        > > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
        > > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
        > > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering. I
        don't
        > > think that any other country has lost so many people. There are
        > more
        > > Irish, Scots and Welsh in other countries than in their countries
        > of
        > > origin. In total, it speaks of a history of philosophical
        > > intolerance, racism, economic and cultural imperialism. I doubt
        > that
        > > if conditions had been more civilized, they would have risked
        > their
        > > lives sailing across oceans into foreign lands. There was no
        > greater
        > > personal risk and activism to be found, and it was a choice for
        > life.
        > > And though we are all now mostly of one political agenda, it's
        > > amazing that kings and queens still sit on thrones, mostly
        > usurped,
        > > and are by and large the wealthiest in the world. Most of their
        > > wealth is in oil. The word citizen is foreign to their ears,
        > > preferring always "subject". There's so much oil and gas in
        > Scotland,
        > > that if it were to become sovereign, England would go bankrupt.
        > >
        > > Mary Jo
        > >
        > > By yon Castle wa', at the close of the day,
        > > I heard a man sing, tho' his head it was grey:
        > > And as he was singing, the tears doon came, -
        > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
        > >
        > > The Church is in ruins, the State is in jars,
        > > Delusions, oppressions, and murderous wars,
        > > We dare na weel say't, but we ken wha's to blame, -
        > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
        > >
        > > My seven braw sons for Jamie drew sword,
        > > But now I greet round their green beds in the yerd;
        > > It brak the sweet heart o' my faithful and dame, -
        > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
        > >
        > > Now life is a burden that bows me down,
        > > Sin' I tint my bairns, and he tint his crown;
        > > But till my last moments my words are the same, -
        > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
        > >
        > > There'll Never Be Peace Till Jamie Comes Hame
        > > Robbie Burns - 1791
      • Knott
        ... I think not. look at how many people have moved from Long Island in the past few decades. a small place is only a big place until it is filled and there is
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 1 5:38 PM
          > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's been
          > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
          > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
          > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering.

          I think not. look at how many people have moved from Long Island in the past few
          decades. a small place is only a big place until it is filled and there is more big space
          to find a small space elsewhere.

          displaced jargon
        • Mary Jo
          Yes, it was stretched to incredulity, but why would one want to leave such a lovely celtique island? Do you have that book on the statistics of people
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 1 6:31 PM
            Yes, it was stretched to incredulity, but why would one want to leave
            such a lovely celtique island? Do you have that book on the
            statistics of people emigrating from Long Island. I've long since
            lost my copy.

            Mary Jo

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <god@t...> wrote:
            > > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's
            been
            > > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
            > > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
            > > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering.
            >
            > I think not. look at how many people have moved from Long Island in
            the past few
            > decades. a small place is only a big place until it is filled and
            there is more big space
            > to find a small space elsewhere.
            >
            > displaced jargon
          • Susan Schnelbach
            There have been some interesting news articles lately on Scotland s dire need for educated employees. Most of their native population leaves for other, better,
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 1 8:26 PM
              There have been some interesting news articles lately on Scotland's
              dire need for educated employees. Most of their native population
              leaves for other, better, opportunities and never returns.

              What are the primary motivators for leaving your country of birth?
              Better financial opportunities elsewhere? Better chance for a future?
              Less of a class-centered society elsewhere? Educational freedom? Or
              just bored with the weather?



              On Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 02:07 PM, Mary Jo wrote:

              > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's been
              > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
              > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
              > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering. I don't
              > think that any other country has lost so many people. There are more
              > Irish, Scots and Welsh in other countries than in their countries of
              > origin. In total, it speaks of a history of philosophical
              > intolerance, racism, economic and cultural imperialism. I doubt that
              > if conditions had been more civilized, they would have risked their
              > lives sailing across oceans into foreign lands. There was no greater
              > personal risk and activism to be found, and it was a choice for life.
              > And though we are all now mostly of one political agenda, it's
              > amazing that kings and queens still sit on thrones, mostly usurped,
              > and are by and large the wealthiest in the world. Most of their
              > wealth is in oil. The word citizen is foreign to their ears,
              > preferring always "subject". There's so much oil and gas in Scotland,
              > that if it were to become sovereign, England would go bankrupt.
              >
              > Mary Jo
              >
              > By yon Castle wa', at the close of the day,
              > I heard a man sing, tho' his head it was grey:
              > And as he was singing, the tears doon came, -
              > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
              >
              > The Church is in ruins, the State is in jars,
              > Delusions, oppressions, and murderous wars,
              > We dare na weel say't, but we ken wha's to blame, -
              > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
              >
              > My seven braw sons for Jamie drew sword,
              > But now I greet round their green beds in the yerd;
              > It brak the sweet heart o' my faithful and dame, -
              > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
              >
              > Now life is a burden that bows me down,
              > Sin' I tint my bairns, and he tint his crown;
              > But till my last moments my words are the same, -
              > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
              >
              > There'll Never Be Peace Till Jamie Comes Hame
              > Robbie Burns - 1791
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Mary Jo
              Susan, On a hunch, remembering the huge Irish emigration, I looked up the numbers. Twenty-five million is a huge number, even when spread out over almost 400
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 1 8:58 PM
                Susan,

                On a hunch, remembering the huge Irish emigration, I looked up the
                numbers. Twenty-five million is a huge number, even when spread out
                over almost 400 years. I still stubbornly suspect there was a
                substantial effort to squash free thought and institutionalized
                abusive economic systems which led to such a habitual emigration. I
                think it's a phenomenal and singular history in the world.

                Mary Jo


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                > There have been some interesting news articles lately on Scotland's
                > dire need for educated employees. Most of their native population
                > leaves for other, better, opportunities and never returns.
                >
                > What are the primary motivators for leaving your country of birth?
                > Better financial opportunities elsewhere? Better chance for a
                future?
                > Less of a class-centered society elsewhere? Educational freedom? Or
                > just bored with the weather?
                >
                >
                >
                > On Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 02:07 PM, Mary Jo wrote:
                >
                > > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's been
                > > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
                > > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can be
                > > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering. I don't
                > > think that any other country has lost so many people. There are
                more
                > > Irish, Scots and Welsh in other countries than in their countries
                of
                > > origin. In total, it speaks of a history of philosophical
                > > intolerance, racism, economic and cultural imperialism. I doubt
                that
                > > if conditions had been more civilized, they would have risked
                their
                > > lives sailing across oceans into foreign lands. There was no
                greater
                > > personal risk and activism to be found, and it was a choice for
                life.
                > > And though we are all now mostly of one political agenda, it's
                > > amazing that kings and queens still sit on thrones, mostly
                usurped,
                > > and are by and large the wealthiest in the world. Most of their
                > > wealth is in oil. The word citizen is foreign to their ears,
                > > preferring always "subject". There's so much oil and gas in
                Scotland,
                > > that if it were to become sovereign, England would go bankrupt.
                > >
                > > Mary Jo
                > >
                > > By yon Castle wa', at the close of the day,
                > > I heard a man sing, tho' his head it was grey:
                > > And as he was singing, the tears doon came, -
                > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                > >
                > > The Church is in ruins, the State is in jars,
                > > Delusions, oppressions, and murderous wars,
                > > We dare na weel say't, but we ken wha's to blame, -
                > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                > >
                > > My seven braw sons for Jamie drew sword,
                > > But now I greet round their green beds in the yerd;
                > > It brak the sweet heart o' my faithful and dame, -
                > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                > >
                > > Now life is a burden that bows me down,
                > > Sin' I tint my bairns, and he tint his crown;
                > > But till my last moments my words are the same, -
                > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                > >
                > > There'll Never Be Peace Till Jamie Comes Hame
                > > Robbie Burns - 1791
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • louise
                Mary Jo, I have some clues as to what you are talking about, and I refrain from making further detailed reply because I feel so angry. Maybe you do not mean
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 2 12:38 AM
                  Mary Jo,
                  I have some clues as to what you are talking about, and I refrain
                  from making further detailed reply because I feel so angry. Maybe
                  you do not mean to, but it seems you insult both our Head of State -
                  and when I say 'our', I'm speaking, confidently, from a shared
                  sentiment here in the UK about the Royal Family, and also you
                  disdain HM Government, taking your superior imperialist view that
                  the USA rules the world, and shelters our little island from
                  danger! Don't you even listen to your own president!? There's
                  genuine gratitude in your country for the military and political
                  solidarity Prime Minister Blair has given, in combating the bloody
                  atrocity guerrillas of the age.
                  At least, if you actually want to listen to your own ironies, you
                  may learn something, because your processes of thought do get rather
                  obscure for me.
                  Louise

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                  > Louise,
                  >
                  > Surely you jest.
                  >
                  > <and, since we happen to have such a virtuous exemplar on the
                  throne
                  > at present>
                  >
                  > She's a usurper along with her questionable bloodline, German's I
                  > believe.
                  >
                  > <The Queen protects us>
                  >
                  > No that would be the United States.
                  >
                  > <I'm much happier with our Queen than I would be with an elected
                  > President.>
                  >
                  > How tragic for you.
                  >
                  > <a specifically national parliament of their own - but that's too
                  > complex, and outside my competence>
                  >
                  > Not too complex, however a more substantial gesture than the
                  return
                  > of the so-called Stone of Scone, ultimately an empty gesture since
                  it
                  > was a forgery to begin with. They returned the fake.
                  >
                  > The Celtic exodus, while not "existentialist" in origin, is
                  certainly
                  > in retrospect. Courageous activism.
                  >
                  > Did you simply miss the import of the Burns poem, or did you
                  simply
                  > choose to ignore it? Surely you can translate it.
                  >
                  > Skeptical of any English gesture towards Highlands and Lowlands,
                  > Mary Jo
                  >
                  > Yes, yes. I know. You haven't a clue what I'm talking about.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Mary Jo,
                  > > The view you take of monarchy is not unusual, though in Britain
                  > > there's still immense popular loyalty to the Crown, under that
                  > > surface of almost savage satirical edge to which all
                  establishment
                  > > is subject in our country. That loyalty and that satire, I
                  > believe,
                  > > are intrinsic as guarantors of such freedom as we have. I do
                  not
                  > > see the monarch - and, since we happen to have such a virtuous
                  > > exemplar on the throne at present, it's particularly
                  > straightforward
                  > > to see this, I find - as a subjugating ruler, but as a
                  figurehead
                  > > who humanly represents the mythical aspect of what it is to be a
                  > > nation. The Queen protects us, and upholds, at least
                  symbolically,
                  > > the rule of law. In addition, the hereditary principle ensures
                  a
                  > > long practice in diplomacy with foreign heads of state and with
                  a
                  > > succession of Prime Ministers, who can benefit from advice that
                  is
                  > > confidential and not given under the pressure of the need to
                  seek
                  > > election at the balllot-box.
                  > > Different nations favour different expressions of the unifying
                  > > myth. I'm much happier with our Queen than I would be with an
                  > > elected President and a Marianne. Oh dear, I've got on to that
                  > > perilous subject of the French, again.
                  > > And I think it's a little dramatic to speak of our country as
                  > > having 'lost' so many people to ventures abroad. To be sure,
                  the
                  > > history of persecutions, war, famine, is grim, but, in one form
                  or
                  > > another, universal to humanity. I get the impression that there
                  > are
                  > > millions of people overseas, whether descended from native Saxo-
                  > > Celts or not (and there just is no concise abbreviation that can
                  > > encompass the complexities of settlement in our islands), who
                  > > harbour genuine affection or love toward this country. And
                  there
                  > is
                  > > hostility and hatred also. I don't think the principle of
                  kingship
                  > > can find a place on the ethical/unethical scale - it is a matter
                  of
                  > > culture and politics, variable as to place and date.
                  > > As for those Scots, they have a prominent place in British
                  > > government these days; and they even have what England doesn't
                  > have -
                  > > a specifically national parliament of their own - but that's
                  too
                  > > complex, and outside my competence, to do more than mention here.
                  > > Louise
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <alcyon11@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > > Beginning in 1600 and continuing for almost 4 centuries, it's
                  > been
                  > > > estimated that about 25 million people have emigrated from the
                  > > > British Isles. Although there are a number of factors that can
                  be
                  > > > debated, including colonialism, this number is staggering. I
                  > don't
                  > > > think that any other country has lost so many people. There
                  are
                  > > more
                  > > > Irish, Scots and Welsh in other countries than in their
                  countries
                  > > of
                  > > > origin. In total, it speaks of a history of philosophical
                  > > > intolerance, racism, economic and cultural imperialism. I
                  doubt
                  > > that
                  > > > if conditions had been more civilized, they would have risked
                  > > their
                  > > > lives sailing across oceans into foreign lands. There was no
                  > > greater
                  > > > personal risk and activism to be found, and it was a choice
                  for
                  > > life.
                  > > > And though we are all now mostly of one political agenda, it's
                  > > > amazing that kings and queens still sit on thrones, mostly
                  > > usurped,
                  > > > and are by and large the wealthiest in the world. Most of
                  their
                  > > > wealth is in oil. The word citizen is foreign to their ears,
                  > > > preferring always "subject". There's so much oil and gas in
                  > > Scotland,
                  > > > that if it were to become sovereign, England would go
                  bankrupt.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary Jo
                  > > >
                  > > > By yon Castle wa', at the close of the day,
                  > > > I heard a man sing, tho' his head it was grey:
                  > > > And as he was singing, the tears doon came, -
                  > > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Church is in ruins, the State is in jars,
                  > > > Delusions, oppressions, and murderous wars,
                  > > > We dare na weel say't, but we ken wha's to blame, -
                  > > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                  > > >
                  > > > My seven braw sons for Jamie drew sword,
                  > > > But now I greet round their green beds in the yerd;
                  > > > It brak the sweet heart o' my faithful and dame, -
                  > > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                  > > >
                  > > > Now life is a burden that bows me down,
                  > > > Sin' I tint my bairns, and he tint his crown;
                  > > > But till my last moments my words are the same, -
                  > > > There'll never be peace till Jamie comes hame.
                  > > >
                  > > > There'll Never Be Peace Till Jamie Comes Hame
                  > > > Robbie Burns - 1791
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