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Re: [existlist] Historical Grudges, was Re: Independent George meets Relation...

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  • jerryjfortin@aol.com
    In a message dated 29/02/2004 2:39:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, ... Thats good Susan because I think they do too. Up here we call them Members of the First
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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      In a message dated 29/02/2004 2:39:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
      susan@... writes:

      > I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.'

      Thats good Susan because I think "they" do too. Up here we call them Members
      of the First Nations. We make no distinction between tribes, that would
      require an informed opinion on peoples of the First Nations, which we decidedly
      don't have.

      Jerry


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mary Jo Malo
      These people , whatever you wish to call them disagree amongst themselves as to what the proper terminology should be. Some AmerInd women hate the word
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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        These "people", whatever you wish to call "them" disagree amongst themselves as to what the proper terminology should be. Some AmerInd women hate the word "squaw", and some embrace it. When speaking of a greater ethnic group it would be impossible to list every single tribe and nation. Give me a total break. When someone uses the term American, African, European, or even specific countries, etc. do we pause to list each and every ethnic group? As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all sounds silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite activist/lawyer/writers uses the term "Indian". So there.

        Mary Jo

        jerryjfortin@... wrote:
        In a message dated 29/02/2004 2:39:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
        susan@... writes:

        > I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.'

        Thats good Susan because I think "they" do too. Up here we call them Members
        of the First Nations. We make no distinction between tribes, that would
        require an informed opinion on peoples of the First Nations, which we decidedly
        don't have.

        Jerry


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • jerryjfortin@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:05:45 PM Mountain Standard Time, ... I think I have been told....... My apologies Mary Jo, my intent was not to insult or
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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          In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:05:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
          alcyon11@... writes:

          > As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all sounds
          > silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite activist/lawyer/writers uses
          > the term "Indian". So there.
          >

          I think I have been told.......
          My apologies Mary Jo, my intent was not to insult or degrade. As a matter of
          fact, believe it or not, my intent was to make you aware that I thought it
          was a term of disrespect. I thought I was actually defending the individual I
          thought was being slandered. Just goes to show you how much I don't know.

          At any rate, my apologies once again.

          Jerry

          Jerry


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eduard at home
          Mary Jo, I don t know about Vine Deloria Jr., but the proper name is First Nations , just as it is not appropriate to refer to Eskimos but rather to the
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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            Mary Jo,

            I don't know about Vine Deloria Jr., but the proper name is "First Nations", just as it is not appropriate to refer to "Eskimos" but rather to the "Inuit". When one is speaking about the population of some country, it is proper to refer to an ethnic group if this is necessary for clarity of the description. It is not the case that one should at the same time list each and every ethnic group.

            eduard
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mary Jo Malo
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:46 AM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Historical Grudges, was Re: Independent George meets Relation...


            These "people", whatever you wish to call "them" disagree amongst themselves as to what the proper terminology should be. Some AmerInd women hate the word "squaw", and some embrace it. When speaking of a greater ethnic group it would be impossible to list every single tribe and nation. Give me a total break. When someone uses the term American, African, European, or even specific countries, etc. do we pause to list each and every ethnic group? As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all sounds silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite activist/lawyer/writers uses the term "Indian". So there.

            Mary Jo

            jerryjfortin@... wrote:
            In a message dated 29/02/2004 2:39:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
            susan@... writes:

            > I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.'

            Thats good Susan because I think "they" do too. Up here we call them Members
            of the First Nations. We make no distinction between tribes, that would
            require an informed opinion on peoples of the First Nations, which we decidedly
            don't have.

            Jerry


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • alcyon11
            Jerry, My retort wasn t directed at anyone in particular but the notion that all AmerInd s agree about everything all the time. That would enforce a stereotype
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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              Jerry,

              My retort wasn't directed at anyone in particular but the notion that
              all AmerInd's agree about everything all the time. That would enforce
              a stereotype wouldn't it? You needn't apologize, but since you were
              so gracious, your apology is accepted :-) From your body of posts in
              this group, I'd say your heart is always in the right place. You care
              about things getting better. That's always a good thing. Not that
              it's any of my business!

              Mary Jo

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, jerryjfortin@a... wrote:
              > In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:05:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
              > alcyon11@y... writes:
              >
              > > As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all
              sounds
              > > silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite
              activist/lawyer/writers uses
              > > the term "Indian". So there.
              > >
              >
              > I think I have been told.......
              > My apologies Mary Jo, my intent was not to insult or degrade. As a
              matter of
              > fact, believe it or not, my intent was to make you aware that I
              thought it
              > was a term of disrespect. I thought I was actually defending the
              individual I
              > thought was being slandered. Just goes to show you how much I
              don't know.
              >
              > At any rate, my apologies once again.
              >
              > Jerry
              >
              > Jerry
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jerryjfortin@aol.com
              In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:58:18 PM Mountain Standard Time, ... Mary Jo, in my heart discrimination is one of the greatest of crimes. It rates right up
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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                In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:58:18 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                alcyon11@... writes:

                > Jerry,
                >
                > My retort wasn't directed at anyone in particular but the notion that
                > all AmerInd's agree about everything all the time. That would enforce
                > a stereotype wouldn't it? You needn't apologize, but since you were
                > so gracious, your apology is accepted :-) From your body of posts in
                > this group, I'd say your heart is always in the right place. You care
                > about things getting better. That's always a good thing. Not that
                > it's any of my business!
                >
                > Mary Jo
                >

                Mary Jo, in my heart discrimination is one of the greatest of crimes. It
                rates right up there with the abuse of women and children, sex crimes and the
                like. I have a black brother in law, a Chinese brother in law, black cousins
                etc. They are just people, but they are my people, and I take offense at the
                individuals who would harm them.

                Jerry


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • alcyon11
                Jerry, You re a mensch, an upright man, a decent human being. It s a wonderful Yiddish expression. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Mary Jo
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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                  Jerry,

                  You're a mensch, an upright man, a decent human being. It's a
                  wonderful Yiddish expression. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

                  Mary Jo

                  <Mary Jo, in my heart discrimination is one of the greatest of
                  crimes. It rates right up there with the abuse of women and children,
                  sex crimes and the like. I have a black brother in law, a Chinese
                  brother in law, black cousins etc. They are just people, but they are
                  my people, and I take offense at the individuals who would harm
                  them.> - Jerry


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, jerryjfortin@a... wrote:
                  > In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:58:18 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                  > alcyon11@y... writes:
                  >
                  > > Jerry,
                  > >
                  > > My retort wasn't directed at anyone in particular but the notion
                  that
                  > > all AmerInd's agree about everything all the time. That would
                  enforce
                  > > a stereotype wouldn't it? You needn't apologize, but since you
                  were
                  > > so gracious, your apology is accepted :-) From your body of posts
                  in
                  > > this group, I'd say your heart is always in the right place. You
                  care
                  > > about things getting better. That's always a good thing. Not that
                  > > it's any of my business!
                  > >
                  > > Mary Jo
                  > >
                  >
                  > Mary Jo, in my heart discrimination is one of the greatest of
                  crimes. It
                  > rates right up there with the abuse of women and children, sex
                  crimes and the
                  > like. I have a black brother in law, a Chinese brother in law,
                  black cousins
                  > etc. They are just people, but they are my people, and I take
                  offense at the
                  > individuals who would harm them.
                  >
                  > Jerry
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Susan Schnelbach
                  I kinda like the First Nations term. It seems more appropriate than Indian, (since that s confusing when speaking to or about someone from India) but I ve
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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                    I kinda like the "First Nations" term. It seems more appropriate than
                    "Indian," (since that's confusing when speaking to or about someone
                    from India) but I've never heard "First Nations" used before this.


                    On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 06:45 PM, eduard at home wrote:

                    > Mary Jo,
                    >
                    > I don't know about Vine Deloria Jr., but the proper name is "First
                    > Nations", just as it is not appropriate to refer to "Eskimos" but
                    > rather to the "Inuit". When one is speaking about the population of
                    > some country, it is proper to refer to an ethnic group if this is
                    > necessary for clarity of the description. It is not the case that one
                    > should at the same time list each and every ethnic group.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Mary Jo Malo
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:46 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Historical Grudges, was Re: Independent
                    > George meets Relation...
                    >
                    >
                    > These "people", whatever you wish to call "them" disagree amongst
                    > themselves as to what the proper terminology should be. Some AmerInd
                    > women hate the word "squaw", and some embrace it. When speaking of a
                    > greater ethnic group it would be impossible to list every single tribe
                    > and nation. Give me a total break. When someone uses the term
                    > American, African, European, or even specific countries, etc. do we
                    > pause to list each and every ethnic group? As an American with a
                    > substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all sounds silly to me. Vine
                    > Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite activist/lawyer/writers uses the term
                    > "Indian". So there.
                    >
                    > Mary Jo
                    >
                    > jerryjfortin@... wrote:
                    > In a message dated 29/02/2004 2:39:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                    > susan@... writes:
                    >
                    >> I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.'
                    >
                    > Thats good Susan because I think "they" do too. Up here we call
                    > them Members
                    > of the First Nations. We make no distinction between tribes, that
                    > would
                    > require an informed opinion on peoples of the First Nations, which
                    > we decidedly
                    > don't have.
                    >
                    > Jerry
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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                    >
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                    >
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                  • Susan Schnelbach
                    Yeah, Mary Jo, my intent wasn t to assume all AmerInds thought the same, either. I just dislike gross grouping like that typically used when discussing
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 1, 2004
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                      Yeah, Mary Jo, my intent wasn't to assume all AmerInds thought the
                      same, either. I just dislike gross grouping like that typically used
                      when discussing "African" issues. Such large groups of diverse
                      ethnicities can't really be lumped under one racial/continental
                      description.


                      On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 06:56 PM, alcyon11 wrote:

                      > Jerry,
                      >
                      > My retort wasn't directed at anyone in particular but the notion that
                      > all AmerInd's agree about everything all the time. That would enforce
                      > a stereotype wouldn't it? You needn't apologize, but since you were
                      > so gracious, your apology is accepted :-) From your body of posts in
                      > this group, I'd say your heart is always in the right place. You care
                      > about things getting better. That's always a good thing. Not that
                      > it's any of my business!
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, jerryjfortin@a... wrote:
                      >> In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:05:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                      >> alcyon11@y... writes:
                      >>
                      >>> As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just all
                      > sounds
                      >>> silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite
                      > activist/lawyer/writers uses
                      >>> the term "Indian". So there.
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> I think I have been told.......
                      >> My apologies Mary Jo, my intent was not to insult or degrade. As a
                      > matter of
                      >> fact, believe it or not, my intent was to make you aware that I
                      > thought it
                      >> was a term of disrespect. I thought I was actually defending the
                      > individual I
                      >> thought was being slandered. Just goes to show you how much I
                      > don't know.
                      >>
                      >> At any rate, my apologies once again.
                      >>
                      >> Jerry
                      >>
                      >> Jerry
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • louise
                      Jerry, If this has anything to do with me, I think I should confess that I suspect myself of having aimed a barb at someone else (a northern namesake), by
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 2, 2004
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                        Jerry,

                        If this has anything to do with me, I think I should confess that I
                        suspect myself of having aimed a barb at someone else (a northern
                        namesake), by letting a magical arrow pass through you. If anyone
                        should apologise, it's me, but I've given up the habit...

                        Louise

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, jerryjfortin@a... wrote:
                        > In a message dated 01/03/2004 7:05:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                        > alcyon11@y... writes:
                        >
                        > > As an American with a substantial AmerInd heritage, this just
                        all sounds
                        > > silly to me. Vine Deloria, Jr., one of my favorite
                        activist/lawyer/writers uses
                        > > the term "Indian". So there.
                        > >
                        >
                        > I think I have been told.......
                        > My apologies Mary Jo, my intent was not to insult or degrade. As
                        a matter of
                        > fact, believe it or not, my intent was to make you aware that I
                        thought it
                        > was a term of disrespect. I thought I was actually defending the
                        individual I
                        > thought was being slandered. Just goes to show you how much I
                        don't know.
                        >
                        > At any rate, my apologies once again.
                        >
                        > Jerry
                        >
                        > Jerry
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jerryjfortin@aol.com
                        In a message dated 02/03/2004 3:53:16 AM Mountain Standard Time, ... Ah Louise, your writting style pleases me greatly. Fear not and fret not for I have not
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 2, 2004
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                          In a message dated 02/03/2004 3:53:16 AM Mountain Standard Time,
                          hecubatoher@... writes:

                          > Jerry,
                          >
                          > If this has anything to do with me, I think I should confess that I
                          > suspect myself of having aimed a barb at someone else (a northern
                          > namesake), by letting a magical arrow pass through you. If anyone
                          > should apologise, it's me, but I've given up the habit...
                          >
                          > Louise
                          >

                          Ah Louise,

                          your writting style pleases me greatly. Fear not and fret not for I have not
                          seen the barbed arrow.

                          Jerry


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • louise
                          Jerry, That s excellent, but, though I may be wrong, I think your doomsday interpretation looks rather different from where I stand in County Durham. The
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 2, 2004
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                            Jerry,

                            That's excellent, but, though I may be wrong, I think your doomsday
                            interpretation looks rather different from where I stand in County
                            Durham. The habit is not simply that of Luther, but of Abelard.

                            Louise

                            still Christianly loving you, and moonlighting with the lords...



                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, jerryjfortin@a... wrote:
                            > In a message dated 02/03/2004 3:53:16 AM Mountain Standard Time,
                            > hecubatoher@y... writes:
                            >
                            > > Jerry,
                            > >
                            > > If this has anything to do with me, I think I should confess
                            that I
                            > > suspect myself of having aimed a barb at someone else (a
                            northern
                            > > namesake), by letting a magical arrow pass through you. If
                            anyone
                            > > should apologise, it's me, but I've given up the habit...
                            > >
                            > > Louise
                            > >
                            >
                            > Ah Louise,
                            >
                            > your writting style pleases me greatly. Fear not and fret not for
                            I have not
                            > seen the barbed arrow.
                            >
                            > Jerry
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jerryjfortin@aol.com
                            In a message dated 02/03/2004 7:17:08 AM Mountain Standard Time, ... What Doomsday? Jerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 2, 2004
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                              In a message dated 02/03/2004 7:17:08 AM Mountain Standard Time,
                              hecubatoher@... writes:

                              > Jerry,
                              >
                              > That's excellent, but, though I may be wrong, I think your doomsday
                              > interpretation looks rather different from where I stand in County
                              > Durham. The habit is not simply that of Luther, but of Abelard.
                              >
                              > Louise
                              >

                              What Doomsday?

                              Jerry


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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