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Independent George meets Relationship George

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  • eduard at home
    George is George Costanza of the Jerry Seinfled TV series. The reference is to one of the episodes where George explains how a divided George can not stand,
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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      George is George Costanza of the Jerry Seinfled TV series. The reference is to one of the episodes where George explains how a "divided" George can not stand, if "relationship" George meets of up with "independent" George. My point is that "divided" George can indeed stand with this meeting.

      I guess you would have to see the episode to understand this ...

      But then it is very appropriate to the discussion on this list of self-responsibility versus social responsibility. To have both is not a threat to the individual.

      eduard
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: louise
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:24 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Ethics, Morality, and Meaning


      eduard,
      is george jj? what about tony? how about the extrapolated poet?
      is the day striped? and where did the hoops go in the twilight?
      the curtains open by themselves in the dream of the future i've not
      yet seen.
      the coffee is not bitter - the horse is not tired - the food is
      superlative, if you go to the right ground.
      can't we have an agreement also - i'll teach you about english life,
      especially football, if you teach me about neurons or anything you
      care to nominate.
      am listening again to radio commentary: bolton have pulled one
      back. good news, darling?
      louise



      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
      > I guess the issue is not so much a matter of the terminology, but
      of the whether this is something that should do. Which tends into
      the old subject of "meaning".
      >
      > I found a neat article on the internet from the Journal of
      Humanistic Psychology, "What Eminent People Have Said About the
      Meaning of Life" [I include below a bit related to this list].
      >
      > --- Yalom (1980) distinguished between two types of meaning:
      cosmic and terrestrial. Cosmic meaning refers to meaning that
      transcends the individual. Cosmic meaning is usually viewed as
      divinely inspired. Terrestrial meaning refers to that which is
      deemed by any individual to be personally meaningful in his or her
      life. Among the best known positions on the meaning of life are the
      following:
      >
      > --- Life has no cosmic meaning but humans can create their own
      meaning(s). Nietzsche (1957) was a pioneer of this perspective.
      Existentialist philosophers like Camus (1955), deBeauvoir (1948),
      and Sartre (1956) and the psychiatrist Erich Fromm (1947) followed
      his lead. They believed that humans must find the to face the
      meaningless abyss and take responsibility for creating meaning out
      of the chaos.
      >
      > --- Life may have cosmic meaning. Through honest and intensive
      search humans can discover truths in life. This is the perspective
      advocated by Frankl (1992). He believed that it was part of human
      nature to search for the meaning of one's existence. In contrast to
      existentialists such as Camus and Sartre, Frankl believed that
      transcendent meaning is not something that can be arbitrarily
      created by a person. It can only be discovered.
      >
      > From an Nooist point of view, I believe that you can have both and
      eat your cake too. To satisfy the rational mind, one can create a
      terrestrial meaning so as to avoid the abyss. But it is possible to
      also satisfy the irrational mind through adopting a cosmic meaning
      which is available through any of the various religions in the
      world.
      >
      > eduard
      > ... whose neurons know that a George divided can stand ...
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Susan Schnelbach
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:00 AM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Unable to understand
      >
      >
      > I might have been the one confused about ethics versus morals... :)
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • louise
      eduard, i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the rest. have seen a bit of seinfeld , but wasn t really my cup of tea. louise ... reference
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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        eduard,
        i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the rest.
        have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
        louise

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
        > George is George Costanza of the Jerry Seinfled TV series. The
        reference is to one of the episodes where George explains how
        a "divided" George can not stand, if "relationship" George meets of
        up with "independent" George. My point is that "divided" George can
        indeed stand with this meeting.
        >
        > I guess you would have to see the episode to understand this ...
        >
        > But then it is very appropriate to the discussion on this list of
        self-responsibility versus social responsibility. To have both is
        not a threat to the individual.
        >
        > eduard
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: louise
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:24 AM
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: Ethics, Morality, and Meaning
        >
        >
        > eduard,
        > is george jj? what about tony? how about the extrapolated poet?
        > is the day striped? and where did the hoops go in the twilight?
        > the curtains open by themselves in the dream of the future i've
        not
        > yet seen.
        > the coffee is not bitter - the horse is not tired - the food is
        > superlative, if you go to the right ground.
        > can't we have an agreement also - i'll teach you about english
        life,
        > especially football, if you teach me about neurons or anything
        you
        > care to nominate.
        > am listening again to radio commentary: bolton have pulled one
        > back. good news, darling?
        > louise
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
        wrote:
        > > I guess the issue is not so much a matter of the terminology,
        but
        > of the whether this is something that should do. Which tends
        into
        > the old subject of "meaning".
        > >
        > > I found a neat article on the internet from the Journal of
        > Humanistic Psychology, "What Eminent People Have Said About the
        > Meaning of Life" [I include below a bit related to this list].
        > >
        > > --- Yalom (1980) distinguished between two types of meaning:
        > cosmic and terrestrial. Cosmic meaning refers to meaning that
        > transcends the individual. Cosmic meaning is usually viewed as
        > divinely inspired. Terrestrial meaning refers to that which is
        > deemed by any individual to be personally meaningful in his or
        her
        > life. Among the best known positions on the meaning of life are
        the
        > following:
        > >
        > > --- Life has no cosmic meaning but humans can create their own
        > meaning(s). Nietzsche (1957) was a pioneer of this perspective.
        > Existentialist philosophers like Camus (1955), deBeauvoir
        (1948),
        > and Sartre (1956) and the psychiatrist Erich Fromm (1947)
        followed
        > his lead. They believed that humans must find the to face the
        > meaningless abyss and take responsibility for creating meaning
        out
        > of the chaos.
        > >
        > > --- Life may have cosmic meaning. Through honest and intensive
        > search humans can discover truths in life. This is the
        perspective
        > advocated by Frankl (1992). He believed that it was part of
        human
        > nature to search for the meaning of one's existence. In contrast
        to
        > existentialists such as Camus and Sartre, Frankl believed that
        > transcendent meaning is not something that can be arbitrarily
        > created by a person. It can only be discovered.
        > >
        > > From an Nooist point of view, I believe that you can have both
        and
        > eat your cake too. To satisfy the rational mind, one can create
        a
        > terrestrial meaning so as to avoid the abyss. But it is
        possible to
        > also satisfy the irrational mind through adopting a cosmic
        meaning
        > which is available through any of the various religions in the
        > world.
        > >
        > > eduard
        > > ... whose neurons know that a George divided can stand ...
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Susan Schnelbach
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:00 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Unable to understand
        > >
        > >
        > > I might have been the one confused about ethics versus
        morals... :)
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eduard at home
        Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you can get. eduard ...
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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          Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you can get.

          eduard
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: louise
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship George


          eduard,
          i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the rest.
          have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
          louise


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • louise
          eduard, maybe there really are massive gulfs between different nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you would think it a joke, at
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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            eduard,
            maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
            nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you
            would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
            englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
            knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
            subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of course,
            i am many times over descended from those Normans.
            maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than to
            us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
            ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
            louise

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
            > Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
            did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you
            can get.
            >
            > eduard
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: louise
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
            George
            >
            >
            > eduard,
            > i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
            rest.
            > have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
            > louise
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Susan Schnelbach
            I recall that episode - one of the few episodes of Seinfeld I saw. It was an interesting description of our needs and desires to keep certain aspects of our
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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              I recall that episode - one of the few episodes of Seinfeld I saw. It
              was an interesting description of our needs and desires to keep certain
              aspects of our lives compartmentalized and controlled.

              Do we do this as a need to keep our lives under control? Is control an
              illusion? Or would it be more fun to just mix it all up and serve warm?



              On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 08:37 AM, eduard at home wrote:

              > George is George Costanza of the Jerry Seinfled TV series. The
              > reference is to one of the episodes where George explains how a
              > "divided" George can not stand, if "relationship" George meets of up
              > with "independent" George. My point is that "divided" George can
              > indeed stand with this meeting.
              >
              > I guess you would have to see the episode to understand this ...
              >
              > But then it is very appropriate to the discussion on this list of
              > self-responsibility versus social responsibility. To have both is not
              > a threat to the individual.
              >
              > eduard
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: louise
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:24 AM
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Ethics, Morality, and Meaning
              >
              >
              > eduard,
              > is george jj? what about tony? how about the extrapolated poet?
              > is the day striped? and where did the hoops go in the twilight?
              > the curtains open by themselves in the dream of the future i've not
              > yet seen.
              > the coffee is not bitter - the horse is not tired - the food is
              > superlative, if you go to the right ground.
              > can't we have an agreement also - i'll teach you about english life,
              > especially football, if you teach me about neurons or anything you
              > care to nominate.
              > am listening again to radio commentary: bolton have pulled one
              > back. good news, darling?
              > louise
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
              >> I guess the issue is not so much a matter of the terminology, but
              > of the whether this is something that should do. Which tends into
              > the old subject of "meaning".
              >>
              >> I found a neat article on the internet from the Journal of
              > Humanistic Psychology, "What Eminent People Have Said About the
              > Meaning of Life" [I include below a bit related to this list].
              >>
              >> --- Yalom (1980) distinguished between two types of meaning:
              > cosmic and terrestrial. Cosmic meaning refers to meaning that
              > transcends the individual. Cosmic meaning is usually viewed as
              > divinely inspired. Terrestrial meaning refers to that which is
              > deemed by any individual to be personally meaningful in his or her
              > life. Among the best known positions on the meaning of life are the
              > following:
              >>
              >> --- Life has no cosmic meaning but humans can create their own
              > meaning(s). Nietzsche (1957) was a pioneer of this perspective.
              > Existentialist philosophers like Camus (1955), deBeauvoir (1948),
              > and Sartre (1956) and the psychiatrist Erich Fromm (1947) followed
              > his lead. They believed that humans must find the to face the
              > meaningless abyss and take responsibility for creating meaning out
              > of the chaos.
              >>
              >> --- Life may have cosmic meaning. Through honest and intensive
              > search humans can discover truths in life. This is the perspective
              > advocated by Frankl (1992). He believed that it was part of human
              > nature to search for the meaning of one's existence. In contrast to
              > existentialists such as Camus and Sartre, Frankl believed that
              > transcendent meaning is not something that can be arbitrarily
              > created by a person. It can only be discovered.
              >>
              >> From an Nooist point of view, I believe that you can have both and
              > eat your cake too. To satisfy the rational mind, one can create a
              > terrestrial meaning so as to avoid the abyss. But it is possible to
              > also satisfy the irrational mind through adopting a cosmic meaning
              > which is available through any of the various religions in the
              > world.
              >>
              >> eduard
              >> ... whose neurons know that a George divided can stand ...
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: Susan Schnelbach
              >> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              >> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:00 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Unable to understand
              >>
              >>
              >> I might have been the one confused about ethics versus morals... :)
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Susan Schnelbach
              Louise - This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently. He was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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                Louise -

                This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently. He
                was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no history
                going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less what
                happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life. Americans
                and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.

                There's no question that there is a massive difference between the west
                side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient history'
                as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current events.
                Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not the
                modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out (or
                rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still governed
                by church affiliations.

                In short, the history in Europe still drives the current disagreements
                and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations with
                England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in German,
                Japan, or China.

                Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason for
                this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down generation
                after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?

                Susan

                On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:

                > eduard,
                > maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                > nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you
                > would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                > englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                > knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                > subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of course,
                > i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                > maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than to
                > us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                > ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                > louise
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                >> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                > did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you
                > can get.
                >>
                >> eduard
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: louise
                >> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                >> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                > George
                >>
                >>
                >> eduard,
                >> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                > rest.
                >> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                >> louise
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • louise
                Susan, Just how safe my boltholes are, I don t know, but I ve got some now, and will fearlessly take my existlist survival in my hands. This is not intended
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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                  Susan,

                  Just how safe my boltholes are, I don't know, but I've got some now,
                  and will fearlessly take my existlist survival in my hands. This is
                  not intended as flaming.
                  I find it laughable to suppose you Americans are not holding a
                  historical grudge - it's simply gone to an unconscious level because
                  Roosevelt took advantage of Churchill's trusting nature and other
                  difficulties, in order to wrest the power of the British Empire into
                  US hands. Just look at the history of American military
                  interventions in recent decades, following the deliverance of
                  supposedly liberated Poles and other Eastern Europeans into the
                  hands of an infamous tyrant. Look at the double standards implicit
                  in American foreign policy generally. I may see more clearly than I
                  used to what drives those double standards, that even forms of love
                  dwell within them, but this is not justice, and does not meet the
                  exacting gaze of the purest religious vision. What are our sacred
                  books for, if not to cry outrage or derision at the cold grip of
                  unfeeling power?
                  The American people often don't have intense feelings about
                  territory disputes because American territory and its economic
                  outposts provide a strangely selective atlas of the world, in
                  the 'collective american psyche'.

                  Louise


                  In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                  > Louise -
                  >
                  > This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently.
                  He
                  > was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                  > Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no
                  history
                  > going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less
                  what
                  > happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life.
                  Americans
                  > and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going
                  back
                  > more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders
                  of
                  > occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.
                  >
                  > There's no question that there is a massive difference between the
                  west
                  > side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient
                  history'
                  > as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                  > 'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current
                  events.
                  > Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                  > racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,'
                  not the
                  > modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of
                  old
                  > racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out
                  (or
                  > rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still
                  governed
                  > by church affiliations.
                  >
                  > In short, the history in Europe still drives the current
                  disagreements
                  > and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held
                  this
                  > kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations
                  with
                  > England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in
                  German,
                  > Japan, or China.
                  >
                  > Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                  for
                  > this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                  > reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                  generation
                  > after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?
                  >
                  > Susan
                  >
                  > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:
                  >
                  > > eduard,
                  > > maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                  > > nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear
                  you
                  > > would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                  > > englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                  > > knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                  > > subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of
                  course,
                  > > i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                  > > maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than
                  to
                  > > us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                  > > ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                  > > louise
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                  wrote:
                  > >> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some
                  people
                  > > did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as
                  you
                  > > can get.
                  > >>
                  > >> eduard
                  > >> ----- Original Message -----
                  > >> From: louise
                  > >> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                  > >> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                  > > George
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> eduard,
                  > >> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                  > > rest.
                  > >> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of
                  tea.
                  > >> louise
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • alcyon11
                  Susan, I think it s that most are poorly educated about their own history and don t really care about the past. Some of the ridiculous attitudes toward
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
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                    Susan,

                    I think it's that most are poorly educated about their own history
                    and don't really care about the past. Some of the ridiculous
                    attitudes toward government and politics are rooted in this
                    ignorance, especially when it comes to our Constitution and the
                    founding principles of our nation.

                    I might also point out that if one is American Indian, he has a rich
                    history stretching back to approximately the same time as rise of
                    what became known as England and France. I'm in the midst of watching
                    Kevin Costner's "500 Nations". I recommend the 8 part series to
                    anyone who is interested in a deeper historical perspective of "our"
                    history.

                    Mary Jo

                    <Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                    for this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                    reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                    generation after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet? -
                    Susan>

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                    > Louise -
                    >
                    > This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently.
                    He
                    > was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                    > Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no
                    history
                    > going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less
                    what
                    > happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life.
                    Americans
                    > and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                    > more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                    > occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.
                    >
                    > There's no question that there is a massive difference between the
                    west
                    > side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient
                    history'
                    > as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                    > 'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current
                    events.
                    > Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                    > racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not
                    the
                    > modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                    > racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out
                    (or
                    > rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still
                    governed
                    > by church affiliations.
                    >
                    > In short, the history in Europe still drives the current
                    disagreements
                    > and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                    > kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations
                    with
                    > England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in
                    German,
                    > Japan, or China.
                    >
                    > Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                    for
                    > this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                    > reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                    generation
                    > after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?
                    >
                    > Susan
                    >
                    > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:
                    >
                    > > eduard,
                    > > maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                    > > nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear
                    you
                    > > would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                    > > englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                    > > knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                    > > subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of
                    course,
                    > > i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                    > > maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than
                    to
                    > > us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                    > > ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                    > > louise
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                    wrote:
                    > >> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                    > > did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as
                    you
                    > > can get.
                    > >>
                    > >> eduard
                    > >> ----- Original Message -----
                    > >> From: louise
                    > >> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > >> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                    > >> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                    > > George
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> eduard,
                    > >> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                    > > rest.
                    > >> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                    > >> louise
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                    > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                  • Susan Schnelbach
                    But if your own history only goes back 200 - 400 years does it generate the same level of biases as it does in other, older, countries? (Louise - I was
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      But if 'your own history' only goes back 200 - 400 years does it
                      generate the same level of biases as it does in other, older,
                      countries? (Louise - I was referred to individual attitudes, not
                      government practices. I know much more goes into most foreign policy
                      decisions than just localized biases. However, I'll be the first to
                      admit to not being very interested in our government. I can't change
                      the way it works until someone elects me dictator. ;) )

                      I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.' There were
                      hundreds of tribes each with their own customs, history, affiliations,
                      and language. To group them collectively is like grouping all of Africa
                      as one nationality. And, since most American's are not descended from
                      any AmerInd tribe they would not consider it part of their 'history.'

                      But, yes, I do agree that most Americans are poorly educated in
                      general, much less their knowledge of history - European, Classical, or
                      American. Our Nintendo generation is the worst of all - not enough of
                      an attention span to remember what happened last year much less 500
                      years ago.

                      Susan
                      "Ignorance of history causes us to malign our own time."
                      He who doesn't learn history is doomed to repeat it.
                      An archaeologist is one whose career lies in ruins. <old tagline that I
                      just couldn't resist adding>

                      Okay, going back to my genealogy research now...
                      Speaking of such, Mary Jo - what part of the country are you from?
                      Wasn't it the Midwest?

                      - - -

                      On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 01:23 PM, alcyon11 wrote:

                      > Susan,
                      >
                      > I think it's that most are poorly educated about their own history
                      > and don't really care about the past. Some of the ridiculous
                      > attitudes toward government and politics are rooted in this
                      > ignorance, especially when it comes to our Constitution and the
                      > founding principles of our nation.
                      >
                      > I might also point out that if one is American Indian, he has a rich
                      > history stretching back to approximately the same time as rise of
                      > what became known as England and France. I'm in the midst of watching
                      > Kevin Costner's "500 Nations". I recommend the 8 part series to
                      > anyone who is interested in a deeper historical perspective of "our"
                      > history.
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > <Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                      > for this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                      > reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                      > generation after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet? -
                      > Susan>
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                      >> Louise -
                      >>
                      >> This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently.
                      > He
                      >> was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                      >> Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no
                      > history
                      >> going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less
                      > what
                      >> happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life.
                      > Americans
                      >> and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                      >> more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                      >> occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.
                      >>
                      >> There's no question that there is a massive difference between the
                      > west
                      >> side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient
                      > history'
                      >> as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                      >> 'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current
                      > events.
                      >> Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                      >> racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not
                      > the
                      >> modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                      >> racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out
                      > (or
                      >> rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still
                      > governed
                      >> by church affiliations.
                      >>
                      >> In short, the history in Europe still drives the current
                      > disagreements
                      >> and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                      >> kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations
                      > with
                      >> England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in
                      > German,
                      >> Japan, or China.
                      >>
                      >> Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                      > for
                      >> this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                      >> reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                      > generation
                      >> after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?
                      >>
                      >> Susan
                      >>
                      >> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> eduard,
                      >>> maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                      >>> nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear
                      > you
                      >>> would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                      >>> englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                      >>> knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                      >>> subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of
                      > course,
                      >>> i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                      >>> maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than
                      > to
                      >>> us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                      >>> ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                      >>> louise
                      >>>
                      >>> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>>> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                      >>> did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as
                      > you
                      >>> can get.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> eduard
                      >>>> ----- Original Message -----
                      >>>> From: louise
                      >>>> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                      >>>> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                      >>> George
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> eduard,
                      >>>> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                      >>> rest.
                      >>>> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                      >>>> louise
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      >>> (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > ---------------------~-->
                      > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
                      > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
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                      > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ACsqlB/TM
                      > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ~->
                      >
                      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
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                      >
                    • eduard at home
                      louise, Yes, we are much closer to the Americans. If the distance between you and the Americans is 10 miles, chances are that we are at mile 7 on the American
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        louise,

                        Yes, we are much closer to the Americans. If the distance between you and the Americans is 10 miles, chances are that we are at mile 7 on the American side. But then that all depends upon where Canadians happen to live. We have a 3000 mile or something border.

                        Anyway, right now I am more interested in the George thingy from a philosophical point of view.

                        eduard
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: louise
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:12 PM
                        Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship George


                        eduard,
                        maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                        nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you
                        would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                        englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                        knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                        subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of course,
                        i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                        maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than to
                        us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                        ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                        louise


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • louise
                        eduard, that s strange - i thought you weren t into these numerical interpretations of the world... sighs. wonder what you ll make of my next post. if you know
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          eduard,

                          that's strange - i thought you weren't into these numerical
                          interpretations of the world...
                          sighs.
                          wonder what you'll make of my next post.
                          if you know where bill is, maybe he'd be willing to cross the ocean
                          and finish me off himself.

                          louise


                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                          > louise,
                          >
                          > Yes, we are much closer to the Americans. If the distance between
                          you and the Americans is 10 miles, chances are that we are at mile 7
                          on the American side. But then that all depends upon where
                          Canadians happen to live. We have a 3000 mile or something border.
                          >
                          > Anyway, right now I am more interested in the George thingy from a
                          philosophical point of view.
                          >
                          > eduard
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: louise
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 1:12 PM
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                          George
                          >
                          >
                          > eduard,
                          > maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                          > nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear
                          you
                          > would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                          > englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                          > knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                          > subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of
                          course,
                          > i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                          > maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than
                          to
                          > us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                          > ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                          > louise
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eduard at home
                          Susan, I was wondering the same thing. That is, to mix it all up . The article from Humanistic Psychology, went into the various types of meaning that we
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Susan,

                            I was wondering the same thing. That is, to "mix it all up".

                            The article from Humanistic Psychology, went into the various types of meaning that we might apply to life. All the way from service to a god -- to no meaning and service to the self.

                            It got me thinking that the sort of meaning we might wish to apply, is largely a case of where we ourselves might wish to put our focus. George fears that he might not continue to stand when "worlds collide". Yet perhaps the fear is unfounded. We can become what we wish according to the circumstances. It is only a matter of manipulating our neurons. If we can laugh in one minute and cry in the next, then surely we could similarly adapt to any philosophy/religion as it suits us.

                            eduard
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Susan Schnelbach
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:18 PM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Independent George meets Relationship George


                            I recall that episode - one of the few episodes of Seinfeld I saw. It
                            was an interesting description of our needs and desires to keep certain
                            aspects of our lives compartmentalized and controlled.

                            Do we do this as a need to keep our lives under control? Is control an
                            illusion? Or would it be more fun to just mix it all up and serve warm?


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • louise
                            this might be so, but sounds like a counsel of despair... louise ... types of meaning that we might apply to life. All the way from service to a god -- to no
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              this might be so, but sounds like a counsel of despair...
                              louise

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                              > Susan,
                              >
                              > I was wondering the same thing. That is, to "mix it all up".
                              >
                              > The article from Humanistic Psychology, went into the various
                              types of meaning that we might apply to life. All the way from
                              service to a god -- to no meaning and service to the self.
                              >
                              > It got me thinking that the sort of meaning we might wish to
                              apply, is largely a case of where we ourselves might wish to put our
                              focus. George fears that he might not continue to stand
                              when "worlds collide". Yet perhaps the fear is unfounded. We can
                              become what we wish according to the circumstances. It is only a
                              matter of manipulating our neurons. If we can laugh in one minute
                              and cry in the next, then surely we could similarly adapt to any
                              philosophy/religion as it suits us.
                              >
                              > eduard
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Susan Schnelbach
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:18 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Independent George meets Relationship
                              George
                              >
                              >
                              > I recall that episode - one of the few episodes of Seinfeld I
                              saw. It
                              > was an interesting description of our needs and desires to keep
                              certain
                              > aspects of our lives compartmentalized and controlled.
                              >
                              > Do we do this as a need to keep our lives under control? Is
                              control an
                              > illusion? Or would it be more fun to just mix it all up and
                              serve warm?
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • jerryjfortin@aol.com
                              In a message dated 29/02/2004 10:00:44 AM Mountain Standard Time, ... I liked MASH myself. Jerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 29/02/2004 10:00:44 AM Mountain Standard Time,
                                yeoman@... writes:

                                > Seinfeld was the best TV series in history.

                                I liked MASH myself.

                                Jerry


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mary Jo Malo
                                Susan, I consider my history to be that of all my multiple heritages, but not to exclude that of my American heritage. After all, this content was inhabited by
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 29, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Susan,

                                  I consider my history to be that of all my multiple heritages, but not to exclude that of my American heritage. After all, this content was inhabited by indigenous peoples before everyone else came here. That history is continous from the Paleo period until the present. I could just as easily been born in any of the countries representing my heritage. I'm an American, but my history is of the world. I live in the Midwest.

                                  Mary Jo

                                  Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                                  But if 'your own history' only goes back 200 - 400 years does it
                                  generate the same level of biases as it does in other, older,
                                  countries? (Louise - I was referred to individual attitudes, not
                                  government practices. I know much more goes into most foreign policy
                                  decisions than just localized biases. However, I'll be the first to
                                  admit to not being very interested in our government. I can't change
                                  the way it works until someone elects me dictator. ;) )

                                  I disagree with the use of the term 'American Indian.' There were
                                  hundreds of tribes each with their own customs, history, affiliations,
                                  and language. To group them collectively is like grouping all of Africa
                                  as one nationality. And, since most American's are not descended from
                                  any AmerInd tribe they would not consider it part of their 'history.'

                                  But, yes, I do agree that most Americans are poorly educated in
                                  general, much less their knowledge of history - European, Classical, or
                                  American. Our Nintendo generation is the worst of all - not enough of
                                  an attention span to remember what happened last year much less 500
                                  years ago.

                                  Susan
                                  "Ignorance of history causes us to malign our own time."
                                  He who doesn't learn history is doomed to repeat it.
                                  An archaeologist is one whose career lies in ruins. <old tagline that I
                                  just couldn't resist adding>

                                  Okay, going back to my genealogy research now...
                                  Speaking of such, Mary Jo - what part of the country are you from?
                                  Wasn't it the Midwest?

                                  - - -

                                  On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 01:23 PM, alcyon11 wrote:

                                  > Susan,
                                  >
                                  > I think it's that most are poorly educated about their own history
                                  > and don't really care about the past. Some of the ridiculous
                                  > attitudes toward government and politics are rooted in this
                                  > ignorance, especially when it comes to our Constitution and the
                                  > founding principles of our nation.
                                  >
                                  > I might also point out that if one is American Indian, he has a rich
                                  > history stretching back to approximately the same time as rise of
                                  > what became known as England and France. I'm in the midst of watching
                                  > Kevin Costner's "500 Nations". I recommend the 8 part series to
                                  > anyone who is interested in a deeper historical perspective of "our"
                                  > history.
                                  >
                                  > Mary Jo
                                  >
                                  > <Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                                  > for this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                                  > reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                                  > generation after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet? -
                                  > Susan>
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                                  >> Louise -
                                  >>
                                  >> This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently.
                                  > He
                                  >> was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                                  >> Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no
                                  > history
                                  >> going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less
                                  > what
                                  >> happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life.
                                  > Americans
                                  >> and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                                  >> more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                                  >> occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.
                                  >>
                                  >> There's no question that there is a massive difference between the
                                  > west
                                  >> side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient
                                  > history'
                                  >> as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                                  >> 'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current
                                  > events.
                                  >> Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                                  >> racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not
                                  > the
                                  >> modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                                  >> racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out
                                  > (or
                                  >> rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still
                                  > governed
                                  >> by church affiliations.
                                  >>
                                  >> In short, the history in Europe still drives the current
                                  > disagreements
                                  >> and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                                  >> kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations
                                  > with
                                  >> England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in
                                  > German,
                                  >> Japan, or China.
                                  >>
                                  >> Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason
                                  > for
                                  >> this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                                  >> reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down
                                  > generation
                                  >> after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?
                                  >>
                                  >> Susan
                                  >>
                                  >> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> eduard,
                                  >>> maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                                  >>> nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear
                                  > you
                                  >>> would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                                  >>> englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                                  >>> knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                                  >>> subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of
                                  > course,
                                  >>> i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                                  >>> maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than
                                  > to
                                  >>> us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                                  >>> ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                                  >>> louise
                                  >>>
                                  >>> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >>>> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                                  >>> did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as
                                  > you
                                  >>> can get.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> eduard
                                  >>>> ----- Original Message -----
                                  >>>> From: louise
                                  >>>> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                                  >>>> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                                  >>> George
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> eduard,
                                  >>>> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                                  >>> rest.
                                  >>>> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                                  >>>> louise
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                  >>> (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Amanda Lemesonoka
                                  Susan, the difference may well be the historical heritage. i sometimes wonder, if people in my country aren t bringing too much of the past (and mostly past
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 1, 2004
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                                    Susan,

                                    the difference may well be the historical heritage. i sometimes wonder, if people in my country aren't bringing too much of the past (and mostly past insults) with them. it is a matter of course that we know our history and are if not proud then cerain about it. but sometimes when present state or failures are being explained with the sorrowful history we've had makes me feel unhappy. people always tend to blame something for their own lack of doings... sorry that i went a bit off the topic, but the thing i wanted to say was that i also think we, europeans are very very largely influenced by our past and maybe sometimes too much.

                                    Amanda



                                    Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote: Louise -

                                    This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently. He
                                    was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                                    Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no history
                                    going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less what
                                    happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life. Americans
                                    and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                                    more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                                    occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.

                                    There's no question that there is a massive difference between the west
                                    side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient history'
                                    as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                                    'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current events.
                                    Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                                    racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not the
                                    modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                                    racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out (or
                                    rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still governed
                                    by church affiliations.

                                    In short, the history in Europe still drives the current disagreements
                                    and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                                    kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations with
                                    England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in German,
                                    Japan, or China.

                                    Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason for
                                    this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                                    reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down generation
                                    after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?

                                    Susan

                                    On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:

                                    > eduard,
                                    > maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                                    > nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you
                                    > would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                                    > englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                                    > knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                                    > subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of course,
                                    > i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                                    > maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than to
                                    > us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                                    > ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                                    > louise
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                    >> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                                    > did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you
                                    > can get.
                                    >>
                                    >> eduard
                                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                                    >> From: louise
                                    >> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                                    >> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                                    > George
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> eduard,
                                    >> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                                    > rest.
                                    >> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                                    >> louise
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Susan Schnelbach
                                    That s what I was wondering too. I used to work with a Dutchman. I made a crack one day about Dutch/German same difference and got a look of death. He told
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 1, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      That's what I was wondering too.

                                      I used to work with a Dutchman. I made a crack one day about
                                      "Dutch/German same difference" and got a look of death. He told me,
                                      using a look that could kill, that HE WAS NOT GERMAN! He was raised, in
                                      Holland, to feel certain negative things about Germans even though he
                                      was my age and not involved in any of the recent world wars.

                                      The same thing came up from an older pair of Bavarians. They were quite
                                      clear that they were Bavarian, NOT GERMAN. I thought it was strange at
                                      the time until I realized that attitude seemed to be common with the
                                      Europeans I met around here.



                                      On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 01:04 AM, Amanda Lemesonoka wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Susan,
                                      >
                                      > the difference may well be the historical heritage. i sometimes
                                      > wonder, if people in my country aren't bringing too much of the past
                                      > (and mostly past insults) with them. it is a matter of course that we
                                      > know our history and are if not proud then cerain about it. but
                                      > sometimes when present state or failures are being explained with the
                                      > sorrowful history we've had makes me feel unhappy. people always tend
                                      > to blame something for their own lack of doings... sorry that i went a
                                      > bit off the topic, but the thing i wanted to say was that i also think
                                      > we, europeans are very very largely influenced by our past and maybe
                                      > sometimes too much.
                                      >
                                      > Amanda
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote: Louise -
                                      >
                                      > This is actually similar to a conversation CSW and I had recently. He
                                      > was pointing out the primary difference between Europeans and
                                      > Americans/Canadians - we live in the present because we HAVE no history
                                      > going back hundreds or thousands of years. We couldn't care less what
                                      > happened in 1066 because it has no bearing on immediate life. Americans
                                      > and Canadians aren't surrounded by buildings and history going back
                                      > more than 200 years, so in effect, we have no constant reminders of
                                      > occupation, territory disputes, and age-old disagreements.
                                      >
                                      > There's no question that there is a massive difference between the west
                                      > side of the pond and the east side - and how we view 'ancient history'
                                      > as we would call it, greatly affects (look, Oliver and Chris, used
                                      > 'affect' correctly this time, I think) how we deal with current events.
                                      > Chris was pointing out (from something he read) that even current
                                      > racial (and I'm using the historical connotation behind 'race,' not the
                                      > modern one) reactions to present events follows the patterns of old
                                      > racial and religious affiliations. I believe he was pointing out (or
                                      > rather, Victor Davis Hanson was) that most of Europe is still governed
                                      > by church affiliations.
                                      >
                                      > In short, the history in Europe still drives the current disagreements
                                      > and wars. In America, this would not happen. If Americans held this
                                      > kind of grudge, we would never have resumed diplomatic relations with
                                      > England after the War of 1912. We would never be tourists in German,
                                      > Japan, or China.
                                      >
                                      > Is the fact that our lives move faster and we're busier the reason for
                                      > this? Or is it because we just aren't constantly surrounded by
                                      > reminders of our history? Or is this a viewpoint handed down generation
                                      > after generation and no one's kicked the habit yet?
                                      >
                                      > Susan
                                      >
                                      > On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 10:12 AM, louise wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> eduard,
                                      >> maybe there really are massive gulfs between different
                                      >> nationalities, as well as between different individuals. i fear you
                                      >> would think it a joke, at best, if i said that i haven't, as an
                                      >> englishwoman and a northerner, ever really recovered from the
                                      >> knowledge of what happened during William the Conqueror's savage
                                      >> subjugation of the land of my ancestors, even though now, of course,
                                      >> i am many times over descended from those Normans.
                                      >> maybe you canadians are in general much closer to americans than to
                                      >> us english, for example; though the generalisation may be
                                      >> ludicrous. should all this be 'water off a duck's back'?
                                      >> louise
                                      >>
                                      >> --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                      >>> Seinfeld was the best TV series in history. But then some people
                                      >> did not like it. Personally, I think it is as Existentialist as you
                                      >> can get.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> eduard
                                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >>> From: louise
                                      >>> To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >>> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 11:50 AM
                                      >>> Subject: [existlist] Re: Independent George meets Relationship
                                      >> George
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> eduard,
                                      >>> i might understand the last sentence, but am unsure of the
                                      >> rest.
                                      >>> have seen a bit of 'seinfeld', but wasn't really my cup of tea.
                                      >>> louise
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                      >> (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
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