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Re: [existlist] Re: Church

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  • Nicole Schultheis
    I actually climbed Montsegur last summer with my 6 yr old daughter and husband. Very worthwhile experience. Stayed in a little auberge in the town, sat up
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2004
      I actually climbed Montsegur last summer with my 6 yr old daughter and
      husband. Very worthwhile experience. Stayed in a little auberge in the
      town, sat up the night before with just a little reading light on, reading
      aloud to my kid from the tourist pamphlets and our travel books. Mystical
      stuff, eerie similarities to Machu Picchu. I was not sure how much of it
      she understood, but she was going through a "God" phase so religious stuff
      was sinking in and we enjoyed talking about it

      When we returned to our house my daughter painted a vertical banner on a
      strip of plain muslin and hung it on a bamboo pole so that it draped down
      the full two stories of the main stairs. At the bottom were heretics piled
      up, on fire. Then there was the mountain, with its donkey path, leading up
      to the now-familiar skyline and ruined buildings of Montsegur at the top.
      Above were clouds. Above the clouds were "souls" -- they looked like cutout
      paper dolls of boys and girls -- she also colored them to represent the
      different races (out of her presence we had an interesting discussion about
      this tidbit) -- and above the souls the sun and its rays in brilliant
      yellow, with the word "God" written inside it. We just gave her the bamboo,
      the cloth strip, and the paints -- it was supposedly just a craft project
      to keep her busy while the grownups did something else worthwhile (ha ha,
      like drink wine and gossip) -- and she comes up with this. We were blown
      away.

      On another occasion, she had said to her dad, "Dad, is there a God?"

      Without thinking how best to respond, he says, unequivocally, "No!"

      I kick him under the table and find myself compelled, with a straight face,
      to tell her the exact opposite. He looks at me in disbelief and nearly
      spits out his peas.

      For a second she looks back and me and maintains eye contact long enough for
      me to know that she knows there is more to the story but that I am not
      telling it. She makes one of those faces that confirms to me that she is
      really a teenager trapped in a 6-year-old's body, then she throws her arms
      up in the air, and says, "Whatever!"

      A more reasoned discussion with the poor kid does not take place until
      several months later, around the time of the banner.

      Anyhow, the literature from Montsegur reminded us that those who are most
      hated are the heretics, not the infidels.

      Now think Homeland Security. Who has more to fear from the established
      power -- the outsiders? Or inside critics? Crisics live in fear that soon
      we all will be slapped with RFID tags. And then who could resist logic like
      this:

      "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot
      survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for
      he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst
      those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the
      alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor
      appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he
      wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies
      deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works
      secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he
      infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less
      to fear." -- Cicero Marcus Tullius

      What is truth? What is treason? What happens to inside critics when a
      government's power rests upon a phony reality and civil rights are
      undermined? When belief systems are threatened and a new reality struggles
      to emerge it is a most dangerous time. Dangerous for those who are
      increasingly "wrong" as well as for those who are increasingly "right."
      The myth ceases to depict reality -- and maybe it never did -- and in the
      end only one set of mythmakers survives.

      Somehow, someday, all of this will begin to make more coherent sense and
      find its way into fiction.

      n

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Mary Jo Malo
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:59 PM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Church


      eduard,

      Not all torture was done in back rooms. Much was done in public to
      intimidate the heretics of the day. The Albigensians were burned en
      masse at the foot of a mountain. Their particular technique of having
      heretics recant, and then kill them anyway, was particularly heinous.

      Jo
    • melkorthefirst@aol.com
      Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing. A question
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
        Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for
        the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing. A
        question which I have grapples with concerns the posthumous repuation of people like
        H.L. Mencken who are "revealed" to be anti-semetic on the basis of slurs in
        his diary which ignores and overrides all the actions of this man's life while
        godawful hypocrites like Jefferson are revered for his writing while his
        actions, not only on slavery, are pretty much ignored or rationalizedaway(A
        favorite was the feminist retake on Jefferson and Sally Hemmings speculating that
        based on the person he was that it must have been a loving one). I've wandered
        afar and I don't wish to interfer or interupt but this seem a good place to
        raise this issue if only to unload it on someone else. JWC


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • louise
        Hello Melk. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I m afraid I m not in to this political-historical stuff; I really am a harmless crazed cultural
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
          Hello Melk.
          Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm afraid I'm not in
          to this political-historical stuff; I really am a harmless crazed
          cultural revolutionary; and I see you as a Doubting Thomas kind of a
          chap - which is a perfectly ok thing to be in my book.
          Louise.


          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, melkorthefirst@a... wrote:
          > Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting
          the stage for
          > the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his
          writing. A
          > question which I have grapples with concerns the posthumous
          repuation of people like
          > H.L. Mencken who are "revealed" to be anti-semetic on the basis of
          slurs in
          > his diary which ignores and overrides all the actions of this
          man's life while
          > godawful hypocrites like Jefferson are revered for his writing
          while his
          > actions, not only on slavery, are pretty much ignored or
          rationalizedaway(A
          > favorite was the feminist retake on Jefferson and Sally Hemmings
          speculating that
          > based on the person he was that it must have been a loving one).
          I've wandered
          > afar and I don't wish to interfer or interupt but this seem a
          good place to
          > raise this issue if only to unload it on someone else. JWC
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nicole Schultheis
          not a bad point n Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
            not a bad point

            n
            Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for
            the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing....


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • melkorthefirst@aol.com
            Thanks for the reply but you needn t respond every time to me as I don t wish to impose upon anyone and I m not offended if no one takes notice of me as I am
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 2, 2004
              Thanks for the reply but you needn't respond every time to me as I don't wish
              to impose upon anyone and I"m not offended if no one takes notice of me as I
              am merely a lurker and certainly not in the same class as you Eduard, and so
              many others. That particular rant was because I was tired and somewhat
              thoughtless. Best as always Melk


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bhvwd
              Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of. Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it they have built a 90
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 15, 2004
                Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it
                they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and ask
                what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been there
                for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big evangelicals
                like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market here.
                Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill
              • eduard at home
                Bill, Sounds like an ideal place for missionary work for Nooism. What better than the mislead and uninformed. eduard ... From: bhvwd To:
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 15, 2004
                  Bill,

                  Sounds like an ideal place for missionary work for Nooism. What better than the mislead and uninformed.

                  eduard
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: bhvwd
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 9:25 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Church


                  Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                  Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it
                  they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                  kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and ask
                  what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                  A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                  preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                  there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                  if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                  marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                  and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been there
                  for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big evangelicals
                  like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                  Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market here.
                  Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mary Jo Malo
                  I d rather laugh with the SINNERS than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun. Jo ... it ... ask ... there ... evangelicals ... here.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 15, 2004
                    "I'd rather laugh with the SINNERS than cry with the saints. Sinners
                    are much more fun." Jo

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <valleywestdental@q...>
                    wrote:
                    > Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                    > Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside
                    it
                    > they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                    > kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and
                    ask
                    > what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                    > A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                    > preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                    > there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                    > if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                    > marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                    > and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been
                    there
                    > for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big
                    evangelicals
                    > like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                    > Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market
                    here.
                    > Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill
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