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Knowledge

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  • Nicole Schultheis
    Here s a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I have been busy. Love reading you guys though. There is no absolute knowledge. And those who
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 30, 2004
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      Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I have been busy. Love reading you guys though.

      "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J. Bronowski

      Nicole


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • louise
      Hello Nicole! For some reason my last message got lost before I could post it, so I ll try reprising the essential thing in it, which was new, to me at least.
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 30, 2004
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        Hello Nicole!
        For some reason my last message got lost before I could post it, so
        I'll try reprising the essential thing in it, which was new, to me
        at least.
        My hunch is that humility requires us to see knowledge as absolute
        within one domain only; within any other domain - catastrophe! If I
        am to test this hunch, I need to work out which are the various
        domains. I don't know if Kierkegaard's existing categories are the
        valid ones. My sense of faith is analogous to the scientific process
        of discovery and advance: you know, some guy has been puzzling over
        something for months,and then, he's shaving one day, and, eureka, so
        to speak; and then it's back to the lab for endless testing, and
        looking to others for replication.
        Oh well, I think this is a bit of an improvement on the original
        post. Hope it works...
        Louise.

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis"
        <nschulth@i...> wrote:
        > Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
        have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
        >
        > "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
        they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
        information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J.
        Bronowski
        >
        > Nicole
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary Jo Malo
        Hello Nicole, It s been awhile. I m reading Baudolino which I believe you recommended, but not much else I m ashamed to say. I have read some of the others
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 30, 2004
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          Hello Nicole,

          It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
          recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read some
          of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read any
          of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
          think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made. Now
          it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
          first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.

          Mary Jo

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis" <nschulth@i...>
          wrote:
          > Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
          have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
          >
          > "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
          they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
          information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J.
          Bronowski
          >
          > Nicole
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George Ross
          I have followed these exchanges for several days. May I interject - for the first time - by offering a remark? The great Jacob Bronowski was, of course,
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 30, 2004
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            I have followed these exchanges for several days. May I interject - for the
            first time - by offering a remark?
            The great Jacob Bronowski was, of course, right. With one important caveat:
            no genuine scientist would ever state or think that there was such a thing
            as 'absolute knowledge'. Such claim would reveal that (s)he is not a
            scientist, but a dogmatist. What we call 'knowledge' is, in fact,
            consensual belief. We 'knew' that Newtonian physics was correct; now we
            'know' otherwise. All 'knowledge' is contingent, subjective and relative.
            George


            on 31/1/04 0:53, Mary Jo Malo at alcyon11@... wrote:

            Hello Nicole,

            It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
            recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read some
            of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read any
            of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
            think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made. Now
            it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
            first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.

            Mary Jo

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis" <nschulth@i...>
            wrote:
            > Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
            have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
            >
            > "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
            they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
            information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J.
            Bronowski
            >
            > Nicole
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eduard at home
            hi George, Nice to see you here. I suppose that things have changed, as Newton is concerned. But overall, we still live in a Newtonian world. Knowledge is
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 30, 2004
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              hi George,

              Nice to see you here.

              I suppose that things have changed, as Newton is concerned. But overall, we still live in a Newtonian world. Knowledge is relative. We are not small enough, nor travel fast enough to really have a need for more than what Newton revealed. That is -- for the average person who is just trying to keep his/her neurons happy ... :-)

              Hey -- what did you think about the Mars pictures??

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: George Ross
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:27 AM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Knowledge


              I have followed these exchanges for several days. May I interject - for the
              first time - by offering a remark?
              The great Jacob Bronowski was, of course, right. With one important caveat:
              no genuine scientist would ever state or think that there was such a thing
              as 'absolute knowledge'. Such claim would reveal that (s)he is not a
              scientist, but a dogmatist. What we call 'knowledge' is, in fact,
              consensual belief. We 'knew' that Newtonian physics was correct; now we
              'know' otherwise. All 'knowledge' is contingent, subjective and relative.
              George


              on 31/1/04 0:53, Mary Jo Malo at alcyon11@... wrote:

              Hello Nicole,

              It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
              recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read some
              of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read any
              of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
              think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made. Now
              it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
              first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.

              Mary Jo

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis" <nschulth@i...>
              wrote:
              > Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
              have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
              >
              > "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
              they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
              information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J.
              Bronowski
              >
              > Nicole
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Susan Schnelbach
              It s better to have an idea, than to have a belief. Ideas can be changed or modified to fit new information. Believes rely on faith and are harder to change
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 31, 2004
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                It's better to have an idea, than to have a belief. Ideas can be
                changed or modified to fit new information. Believes rely on faith and
                are harder to change (as said in the movie Dogma.)


                On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 09:27 PM, George Ross wrote:

                > I have followed these exchanges for several days. May I interject -
                > for the
                > first time - by offering a remark?
                > The great Jacob Bronowski was, of course, right. With one important
                > caveat:
                > no genuine scientist would ever state or think that there was such a
                > thing
                > as 'absolute knowledge'. Such claim would reveal that (s)he is not a
                > scientist, but a dogmatist. What we call 'knowledge' is, in fact,
                > consensual belief. We 'knew' that Newtonian physics was correct; now
                > we
                > 'know' otherwise. All 'knowledge' is contingent, subjective and
                > relative.
                > George
                >
                >
                > on 31/1/04 0:53, Mary Jo Malo at alcyon11@... wrote:
                >
                > Hello Nicole,
                >
                > It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
                > recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read some
                > of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read any
                > of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
                > think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made. Now
                > it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
                > first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.
                >
                > Mary Jo
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis" <nschulth@i...>
                > wrote:
                >> Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
                > have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
                >>
                >> "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
                > they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
                > information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." -- J.
                > Bronowski
                >>
                >> Nicole
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
                >
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                >
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                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
                >
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                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Mary Jo Malo
                Don t you think that people simply use the word believe when they mean think ? I m sure it s careless, and I do it quite often. I think that the chair will
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 31, 2004
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                  Don't you think that people simply use the word "believe" when they
                  mean "think"? I'm sure it's careless, and I do it quite often. I
                  think that the chair will hold me, and I believe the chair will hold
                  me seem similar in meaning. When it comes to ideas and philosophy, if
                  we say we believe something is true, it seems to draw a negative
                  reaction. I get tired of using the same words, so I like to try what
                  I think/believe are words of similar meaning. When we say, such and
                  such, without the qualifier "I think" or "I believe" or "I feel
                  that", people think we're arrogant and stating a fact; when all we're
                  doing is stating an opinion. There's another one: "in my opinion". I
                  think if we put it in the context of what's being said, it shouldn't
                  be confusing. Am I assuming too much? I don't know.

                  Mary Jo

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@t...> wrote:
                  > It's better to have an idea, than to have a belief. Ideas can be
                  > changed or modified to fit new information. Believes rely on faith
                  and
                  > are harder to change (as said in the movie Dogma.)
                  >
                  >
                  > On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 09:27 PM, George Ross wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have followed these exchanges for several days. May I
                  interject -
                  > > for the
                  > > first time - by offering a remark?
                  > > The great Jacob Bronowski was, of course, right. With one
                  important
                  > > caveat:
                  > > no genuine scientist would ever state or think that there was
                  such a
                  > > thing
                  > > as 'absolute knowledge'. Such claim would reveal that (s)he is
                  not a
                  > > scientist, but a dogmatist. What we call 'knowledge' is, in fact,
                  > > consensual belief. We 'knew' that Newtonian physics was
                  correct; now
                  > > we
                  > > 'know' otherwise. All 'knowledge' is contingent, subjective and
                  > > relative.
                  > > George
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > on 31/1/04 0:53, Mary Jo Malo at alcyon11@y... wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Nicole,
                  > >
                  > > It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
                  > > recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read
                  some
                  > > of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read
                  any
                  > > of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
                  > > think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made.
                  Now
                  > > it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
                  > > first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.
                  > >
                  > > Mary Jo
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Nicole Schultheis"
                  <nschulth@i...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >> Here's a good quote. Sorry I have not contributed much lately, I
                  > > have been busy. Love reading you guys though.
                  > >>
                  > >> "There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether
                  > > they are scientists or dogmatists, open the door to tragedy. All
                  > > information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility." --
                  J.
                  > > Bronowski
                  > >>
                  > >> Nicole
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service
                  > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/31/2004 9:30:56 PM Central Standard Time, alcyon11@yahoo.com writes: Don t you think that people simply use the word believe when they
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 31, 2004
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                    In a message dated 1/31/2004 9:30:56 PM Central Standard Time,
                    alcyon11@... writes:

                    Don't you think that people simply use the word "believe" when they
                    mean "think"? I'm sure it's careless, and I do it quite often. I
                    think that the chair will hold me, and I believe the chair will hold
                    me seem similar in meaning. When it comes to ideas and philosophy, if
                    we say we believe something is true, it seems to draw a negative
                    reaction. I get tired of using the same words, so I like to try what
                    I think/believe are words of similar meaning. When we say, such and
                    such, without the qualifier "I think" or "I believe" or "I feel
                    that", people think we're arrogant and stating a fact; when all we're
                    doing is stating an opinion. There's another one: "in my opinion". I
                    think if we put it in the context of what's being said, it shouldn't
                    be confusing. Am I assuming too much? I don't know.

                    Mary Jo

                    Reminds me of the old joke, "Everybody's got to believe in something and I
                    believe I'll have another beer."
                    IOW, you're not asuming too much at all. The word "believe" just has a
                    fairly broad semantic range and there is nothing at all careless about using it
                    as you do.
                    Ed Tyler

                    http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mary Jo Malo
                    Thanks Ed. Mary Jo ... they ... hold ... if ... what ... and ... we re ... I ... shouldn t ... something and I ... has a ... about using it
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 1, 2004
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                      Thanks Ed.

                      Mary Jo

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, LeeEdgarTyler@a... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 1/31/2004 9:30:56 PM Central Standard Time,
                      > alcyon11@y... writes:
                      >
                      > Don't you think that people simply use the word "believe" when
                      they
                      > mean "think"? I'm sure it's careless, and I do it quite often. I
                      > think that the chair will hold me, and I believe the chair will
                      hold
                      > me seem similar in meaning. When it comes to ideas and philosophy,
                      if
                      > we say we believe something is true, it seems to draw a negative
                      > reaction. I get tired of using the same words, so I like to try
                      what
                      > I think/believe are words of similar meaning. When we say, such
                      and
                      > such, without the qualifier "I think" or "I believe" or "I feel
                      > that", people think we're arrogant and stating a fact; when all
                      we're
                      > doing is stating an opinion. There's another one: "in my opinion".
                      I
                      > think if we put it in the context of what's being said, it
                      shouldn't
                      > be confusing. Am I assuming too much? I don't know.
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > Reminds me of the old joke, "Everybody's got to believe in
                      something and I
                      > believe I'll have another beer."
                      > IOW, you're not asuming too much at all. The word "believe" just
                      has a
                      > fairly broad semantic range and there is nothing at all careless
                      about using it
                      > as you do.
                      > Ed Tyler
                      >
                      > http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nicole Schultheis
                      Hi Mary Jo. I have been plugging away at The White Goddess, but confess I sometimes feel as lost as one of our hapless clients.* My junior high school era
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 1, 2004
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                        Hi Mary Jo. I have been plugging away at The White Goddess, but confess I
                        sometimes feel as lost as one of our hapless clients.* My junior high
                        school era knowledge of Greek mythology ill prepared me for this, but I am
                        making progress and it is worth it.

                        Meanwhile, my educated friends are egging me on. So, lined up next is the
                        one-volume version of The Golden Bough, and then From Ritual to Romance.
                        There is much to be learned from the not-quite-right.

                        On the fiction front, the Toni Morrison one you recommended is still waiting
                        for me at bedside. I got diverted by The DaVinca Code (me and everyone I
                        know) and simultaneously I stumbled across some poetry by Rumi, then fell
                        headlong into sufiism (or is it sufism), and then --- at that precise
                        moment --- a cousin turned up who had returned from Israel to bury his
                        mother, and tells me he has rejected the New Testament, converted to
                        judaism, and is a student of the Dead Sea Scrolls and of the kabbala, and
                        tells me, by the way, that in a trip to France in the 60s with our
                        grandmother our aged cousins confirmed to him that we're descended from the
                        Merovingians. He and I spend several loopy evenings together. He leaves me
                        with his copper scroll archeology proposal and now I know more than I ever
                        knew I wanted to know about the use and meaning of certain Hebrew letters.
                        I astonish him with the meager amount of info I spew back at him, and
                        finally confess it is from reading the DaVinci Code, but he is still
                        impressed so I give him my copy. We were close once, as children. Our
                        recent reacquaintance was serendipidous**.

                        Meanwhile, on my mp3 player is Jung's Memories, Dream, Reflections. Tried
                        to buy Synchronicity and Man and his Symbols but the used book sellers I
                        tried to get them from on Amazon.com turned out not to have them and i keep
                        forgetting to reorder.

                        Going around in circles here. Serendipities, synchonicities, and in physics
                        the revelation that our universe comes from parallel planes colliding and
                        creating the dust which evolved into what we see through the Hubble's eye...
                        and in that universe in which we perceive that we live is cognizance of
                        parallel kinds of knowledge -- the logical and the spiritual, neither
                        entirely correct, and neither entirely wrong*** -- and also... a persistent
                        sense of the female/male duality of the creator, and of ourselves emperiled
                        by our persistent refusal to acknowledge them as one and the same and at the
                        same time as equal twinned forces, dangerous if uncoupled...

                        and ...

                        now...

                        i'm not just going in circles but spinning like an electron... in quantum
                        space.

                        Where the heck does that leave one?

                        Suddenly life is too short and there is WAAAAYYY too much reading to do. Or
                        maybe I should get up off my ever-broadening butt and drive my kid to her
                        playdate before she beams me.

                        __________
                        *There was this guy on vacation who was encouraged to jump into the Nile
                        from his tourist boat without a life preserver. His survivors wished to
                        pursue the matter, but we too found ourselves in a swiftly flowing river --
                        immersed in a completely alien world without any recognizable form of legal
                        recourse.

                        **See http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040202/misc/2serendipity.htm. The
                        print version has that terrific painting reproduced in it, The Three Princes
                        of Serendip. This led me to http://livingheritage.org/three_princes.htm.
                        And of course to Umberto Eco's Serendipities.... and then Amazon.com tell
                        you it thinks you should also read Baudolino (and i forget who recommended
                        that, wasn't me, have not read it yet) ... and then suddenly what pops to
                        mind is Daniel Boorstin's 1961 treatise, The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-events
                        in America (which Bernadine Healy refers to in her current piece about
                        funding sex research in US News & World Report, 2/4/04), and now suddenly I
                        am a lawyer again, thinking about "the litigation crisis" as yet another one
                        of those artifically created pseudoevents -- see this editorial, at
                        http://www.lowcountrynow.com/stories/012304/LOCrose.shtml: "Tort reform
                        issues should be argued dispassionately with due respect for the truth. But
                        because the facts are not on the side of those advocating reform, they
                        resort to myths and distortions to scare the American public into giving up
                        their rights."

                        Whoa, doggies. I am trying to write FICTION about truth and falsehood but
                        the false REALITY I keep having to live in keeps interfering with my reading
                        list.

                        ***
                        xxvii
                        Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
                        And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
                        A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries,
                        "Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There!"

                        xxx
                        Myself when young did eagerly frequent
                        Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
                        About it and about: but evermore
                        Came out by the same door as in I went.

                        (a prize for s/he who knows the source of these two quatrains.)


                        Nicole

                        > on 31/1/04 0:53, Mary Jo Malo at alcyon11@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Nicole,
                        >
                        > It's been awhile. I'm reading "Baudolino" which I believe you
                        > recommended, but not much else I'm ashamed to say. I have read some
                        > of the others you recommended in the past however. Have you read any
                        > of my picks? Please stay in touch. Variety is the spice of life! I
                        > think last we talked I mentioned "Cold Mountain" was being made. Now
                        > it's out in theaters and highly recommended. It was the author's
                        > first book I believe. What a talented and lucky writer.
                        >
                        > Mary Jo
                      • bhvwd
                        Stickbass, I have no idea of the extent of your knowledge base , but your intent sounds like a search that this group could support. There are creatures that
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 16, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Stickbass, I have no idea of the extent of your knowledge base , but
                          your intent sounds like a search that this group could support. There
                          are creatures that lurk in these here woods that reject the very
                          concept of reality. You could wake one in your questionings. The only
                          repellent I have found is knowing exactly what the hell you are
                          talking about, word by tedious word. Bill
                        • stickbass1@comcast.net
                          Bill, Thank you for the heads up .I have encountered those kind of creatures before...but not yet on the internet... I bet some hair-raising stories could be
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 16, 2004
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                            Bill,
                            Thank you for the "heads up".I have encountered those kind of creatures before...but not yet on the internet... I bet some hair-raising stories could be told.

                            Bryan
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: bhvwd
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 7:23 PM
                            Subject: [existlist] Knowledge


                            Stickbass, I have no idea of the extent of your knowledge base , but
                            your intent sounds like a search that this group could support. There
                            are creatures that lurk in these here woods that reject the very
                            concept of reality. You could wake one in your questionings. The only
                            repellent I have found is knowing exactly what the hell you are
                            talking about, word by tedious word. Bill



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