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Church

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  • Mary Jo Malo
    Lorna, eduard, I like the perspective that many French have towards churches rather than religion. Having survived monarchs, republics, democracies, Nazis,
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 29, 2004
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      Lorna, eduard,

      I like the perspective that many French have towards churches rather
      than religion. Having survived monarchs, republics, democracies,
      Nazis, Communists, Existentialists, and so on; they prefer to
      consider churches as art and architecture. They are proud of their
      heritage in terms of a great culture, similar to the Greeks and other
      Middle Eastern cultures and their antiquities. Perhaps that's a good
      way to go. Religious sentiments can and have survived inspite of
      buildings. When they become a business where the merchants and buyers
      come to transact, corruption and hypocrisy will abound. But why
      should they be any different than other group of humans, prone to the
      same human foibles.

      Jo
    • eduard at home
      Jo, That s just the point. They are no different from other groups. But because the church, religion or whatever one might wish to call it, is easily
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 29, 2004
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        Jo,

        That's just the point. They are no different from other groups. But because the church, religion or whatever one might wish to call it, is easily identified, we can pin our biases upon them. Yes the old Spanish Inquisitor was doing his thing, but in some back room, beyond the plaza, there was likely an early dentist, named Pedro, pounding a hot nail in someone's tooth.

        eduard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Mary Jo Malo
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:43 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Church


        Lorna, eduard,

        I like the perspective that many French have towards churches rather
        than religion. Having survived monarchs, republics, democracies,
        Nazis, Communists, Existentialists, and so on; they prefer to
        consider churches as art and architecture. They are proud of their
        heritage in terms of a great culture, similar to the Greeks and other
        Middle Eastern cultures and their antiquities. Perhaps that's a good
        way to go. Religious sentiments can and have survived inspite of
        buildings. When they become a business where the merchants and buyers
        come to transact, corruption and hypocrisy will abound. But why
        should they be any different than other group of humans, prone to the
        same human foibles.

        Jo


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary Jo Malo
        eduard, Not all torture was done in back rooms. Much was done in public to intimidate the heretics of the day. The Albigensians were burned en masse at the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 29, 2004
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          eduard,

          Not all torture was done in back rooms. Much was done in public to
          intimidate the heretics of the day. The Albigensians were burned en
          masse at the foot of a mountain. Their particular technique of having
          heretics recant, and then kill them anyway, was particularly heinous.

          Jo

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
          > Jo,
          >
          > That's just the point. They are no different from other groups.
          But because the church, religion or whatever one might wish to call
          it, is easily identified, we can pin our biases upon them. Yes the
          old Spanish Inquisitor was doing his thing, but in some back room,
          beyond the plaza, there was likely an early dentist, named Pedro,
          pounding a hot nail in someone's tooth.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Mary Jo Malo
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:43 PM
          > Subject: [existlist] Church
          >
          >
          > Lorna, eduard,
          >
          > I like the perspective that many French have towards churches
          rather
          > than religion. Having survived monarchs, republics, democracies,
          > Nazis, Communists, Existentialists, and so on; they prefer to
          > consider churches as art and architecture. They are proud of
          their
          > heritage in terms of a great culture, similar to the Greeks and
          other
          > Middle Eastern cultures and their antiquities. Perhaps that's a
          good
          > way to go. Religious sentiments can and have survived inspite of
          > buildings. When they become a business where the merchants and
          buyers
          > come to transact, corruption and hypocrisy will abound. But why
          > should they be any different than other group of humans, prone to
          the
          > same human foibles.
          >
          > Jo
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eduard at home
          Jo, Either I have to write more into my emails, or you will need to look more closely. eduard ... From: Mary Jo Malo To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 29, 2004
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            Jo,

            Either I have to write more into my emails, or you will need to look more closely.

            eduard
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mary Jo Malo
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:59 PM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Church


            eduard,

            Not all torture was done in back rooms. Much was done in public to
            intimidate the heretics of the day. The Albigensians were burned en
            masse at the foot of a mountain. Their particular technique of having
            heretics recant, and then kill them anyway, was particularly heinous.

            Jo

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
            > Jo,
            >
            > That's just the point. They are no different from other groups.
            But because the church, religion or whatever one might wish to call
            it, is easily identified, we can pin our biases upon them. Yes the
            old Spanish Inquisitor was doing his thing, but in some back room,
            beyond the plaza, there was likely an early dentist, named Pedro,
            pounding a hot nail in someone's tooth.
            >
            > eduard


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nicole Schultheis
            I actually climbed Montsegur last summer with my 6 yr old daughter and husband. Very worthwhile experience. Stayed in a little auberge in the town, sat up
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 1 3:43 PM
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              I actually climbed Montsegur last summer with my 6 yr old daughter and
              husband. Very worthwhile experience. Stayed in a little auberge in the
              town, sat up the night before with just a little reading light on, reading
              aloud to my kid from the tourist pamphlets and our travel books. Mystical
              stuff, eerie similarities to Machu Picchu. I was not sure how much of it
              she understood, but she was going through a "God" phase so religious stuff
              was sinking in and we enjoyed talking about it

              When we returned to our house my daughter painted a vertical banner on a
              strip of plain muslin and hung it on a bamboo pole so that it draped down
              the full two stories of the main stairs. At the bottom were heretics piled
              up, on fire. Then there was the mountain, with its donkey path, leading up
              to the now-familiar skyline and ruined buildings of Montsegur at the top.
              Above were clouds. Above the clouds were "souls" -- they looked like cutout
              paper dolls of boys and girls -- she also colored them to represent the
              different races (out of her presence we had an interesting discussion about
              this tidbit) -- and above the souls the sun and its rays in brilliant
              yellow, with the word "God" written inside it. We just gave her the bamboo,
              the cloth strip, and the paints -- it was supposedly just a craft project
              to keep her busy while the grownups did something else worthwhile (ha ha,
              like drink wine and gossip) -- and she comes up with this. We were blown
              away.

              On another occasion, she had said to her dad, "Dad, is there a God?"

              Without thinking how best to respond, he says, unequivocally, "No!"

              I kick him under the table and find myself compelled, with a straight face,
              to tell her the exact opposite. He looks at me in disbelief and nearly
              spits out his peas.

              For a second she looks back and me and maintains eye contact long enough for
              me to know that she knows there is more to the story but that I am not
              telling it. She makes one of those faces that confirms to me that she is
              really a teenager trapped in a 6-year-old's body, then she throws her arms
              up in the air, and says, "Whatever!"

              A more reasoned discussion with the poor kid does not take place until
              several months later, around the time of the banner.

              Anyhow, the literature from Montsegur reminded us that those who are most
              hated are the heretics, not the infidels.

              Now think Homeland Security. Who has more to fear from the established
              power -- the outsiders? Or inside critics? Crisics live in fear that soon
              we all will be slapped with RFID tags. And then who could resist logic like
              this:

              "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot
              survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for
              he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst
              those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the
              alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor
              appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he
              wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies
              deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works
              secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he
              infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less
              to fear." -- Cicero Marcus Tullius

              What is truth? What is treason? What happens to inside critics when a
              government's power rests upon a phony reality and civil rights are
              undermined? When belief systems are threatened and a new reality struggles
              to emerge it is a most dangerous time. Dangerous for those who are
              increasingly "wrong" as well as for those who are increasingly "right."
              The myth ceases to depict reality -- and maybe it never did -- and in the
              end only one set of mythmakers survives.

              Somehow, someday, all of this will begin to make more coherent sense and
              find its way into fiction.

              n

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Mary Jo Malo
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:59 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Church


              eduard,

              Not all torture was done in back rooms. Much was done in public to
              intimidate the heretics of the day. The Albigensians were burned en
              masse at the foot of a mountain. Their particular technique of having
              heretics recant, and then kill them anyway, was particularly heinous.

              Jo
            • melkorthefirst@aol.com
              Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing. A question
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 2 5:36 AM
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                Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for
                the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing. A
                question which I have grapples with concerns the posthumous repuation of people like
                H.L. Mencken who are "revealed" to be anti-semetic on the basis of slurs in
                his diary which ignores and overrides all the actions of this man's life while
                godawful hypocrites like Jefferson are revered for his writing while his
                actions, not only on slavery, are pretty much ignored or rationalizedaway(A
                favorite was the feminist retake on Jefferson and Sally Hemmings speculating that
                based on the person he was that it must have been a loving one). I've wandered
                afar and I don't wish to interfer or interupt but this seem a good place to
                raise this issue if only to unload it on someone else. JWC


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • louise
                Hello Melk. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I m afraid I m not in to this political-historical stuff; I really am a harmless crazed cultural
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 2 7:30 AM
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                  Hello Melk.
                  Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I'm afraid I'm not in
                  to this political-historical stuff; I really am a harmless crazed
                  cultural revolutionary; and I see you as a Doubting Thomas kind of a
                  chap - which is a perfectly ok thing to be in my book.
                  Louise.


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, melkorthefirst@a... wrote:
                  > Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting
                  the stage for
                  > the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his
                  writing. A
                  > question which I have grapples with concerns the posthumous
                  repuation of people like
                  > H.L. Mencken who are "revealed" to be anti-semetic on the basis of
                  slurs in
                  > his diary which ignores and overrides all the actions of this
                  man's life while
                  > godawful hypocrites like Jefferson are revered for his writing
                  while his
                  > actions, not only on slavery, are pretty much ignored or
                  rationalizedaway(A
                  > favorite was the feminist retake on Jefferson and Sally Hemmings
                  speculating that
                  > based on the person he was that it must have been a loving one).
                  I've wandered
                  > afar and I don't wish to interfer or interupt but this seem a
                  good place to
                  > raise this issue if only to unload it on someone else. JWC
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nicole Schultheis
                  not a bad point n Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 2 11:25 AM
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                    not a bad point

                    n
                    Of course Cicero had the accused executed without trial setting the stage for
                    the likes of Thomas Jefferson whose every action belied his writing....


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • melkorthefirst@aol.com
                    Thanks for the reply but you needn t respond every time to me as I don t wish to impose upon anyone and I m not offended if no one takes notice of me as I am
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 2 6:58 PM
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                      Thanks for the reply but you needn't respond every time to me as I don't wish
                      to impose upon anyone and I"m not offended if no one takes notice of me as I
                      am merely a lurker and certainly not in the same class as you Eduard, and so
                      many others. That particular rant was because I was tired and somewhat
                      thoughtless. Best as always Melk


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bhvwd
                      Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of. Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it they have built a 90
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 15 6:25 PM
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                        Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                        Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it
                        they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                        kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and ask
                        what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                        A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                        preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                        there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                        if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                        marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                        and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been there
                        for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big evangelicals
                        like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                        Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market here.
                        Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill
                      • eduard at home
                        Bill, Sounds like an ideal place for missionary work for Nooism. What better than the mislead and uninformed. eduard ... From: bhvwd To:
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 15 6:38 PM
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                          Bill,

                          Sounds like an ideal place for missionary work for Nooism. What better than the mislead and uninformed.

                          eduard
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: bhvwd
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 9:25 PM
                          Subject: [existlist] Church


                          Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                          Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside it
                          they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                          kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and ask
                          what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                          A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                          preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                          there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                          if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                          marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                          and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been there
                          for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big evangelicals
                          like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                          Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market here.
                          Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mary Jo Malo
                          I d rather laugh with the SINNERS than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun. Jo ... it ... ask ... there ... evangelicals ... here.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 15 7:56 PM
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                            "I'd rather laugh with the SINNERS than cry with the saints. Sinners
                            are much more fun." Jo

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <valleywestdental@q...>
                            wrote:
                            > Eduard , we have every type of gaddamned church you could think of.
                            > Down the street they have this shoddy, cement block church. Beside
                            it
                            > they have built a 90 foot, structural steel tower. There is some
                            > kind of a talisman hanging from the top of it. I would go in and
                            ask
                            > what it is but I am afraid I would be killed and eaten.
                            > A few blocks the other way is the Church of Rock. Supposidly they
                            > preform christian rock there. Nobody is ever there. Rock on!. Then
                            > there is brother joeseph`s church. You can go there and get married
                            > if he is awake. He marries anything to anything. Cross species
                            > marriage is a big seller. Then there is sister anne, psychic reader
                            > and fortune teller. She is about ten blocks east. She has been
                            there
                            > for years, has a big crystal ball out in front. The big
                            evangelicals
                            > like to advertise on the tube. Thank --- for the remote.
                            > Nooism, I doubt you could draw a croud. It is a tough market
                            here.
                            > Besides everyboby is at the casino, SINNING. Bill
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