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Time and space

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  • bhvwd
    Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no sentients to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as the sound of a tree
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 29, 2003
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      Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no sentients
      to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as the
      sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the sound
      waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear and
      experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
      planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium would
      still happen without our note. Those changes would not be chronicled
      without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
      exist.
      The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
      factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of one
      earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as the
      number could have been based on the rotational interval of Venus,
      Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same velocity
      without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances in
      space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and its
      distance parameter.
      The classical grid depection of space time under the influence of
      great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the bending
      of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on the
      path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on the
      tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
      parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
      changes help get me up in the morning. Bill
    • eduard at home
      Bill, I am not explaining myself too well ... The article in Scientific American makes the point that time is not continuous, but rather comes in quanta. We
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 29, 2003
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        Bill,

        I am not explaining myself too well ...

        The article in Scientific American makes the point that time is not continuous, but rather comes in quanta.

        We are accustomed to think of time and space as being continuous. In the sense that you can always divide in into smaller and smaller portions. But other things come in quanta. For example the energy levels of electrons.

        Think of it this way. We have a time interval of a minute .. which of course is entirely arbitrary to suit the way we measure things. And we think of this minute as being divided into seconds ... and the second into even smaller values. But what if the minute were only divisible into seconds?? That time came in only increments of one second. I suppose that if you watched a horse race, on this basis, you would see the horse move ahead in one increment after another, but never in between.

        Of course the increment that they are speaking about is much less than a second. The quantumization of space implies a similar non-zero quanta of area and volume. The Plank length is 10^-33 centimeters. The nonzero minimum area is then 10^-66 square centimeters and the nonzero minimum volume is 1^-99 cubic centimeters. The quanta of time is the Plank time or 10^-43 seconds.

        All of which is awfully small, and it doesn't get me up in the morning. But also interesting. Sort of reminds me of that scene in Lawnmower Man where the bad guys are separated into particles.

        eduard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bhvwd
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:09 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Time and space


        Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no sentients
        to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as the
        sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the sound
        waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear and
        experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
        planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium would
        still happen without our note. Those changes would not be chronicled
        without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
        exist.
        The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
        factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of one
        earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as the
        number could have been based on the rotational interval of Venus,
        Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same velocity
        without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances in
        space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and its
        distance parameter.
        The classical grid depection of space time under the influence of
        great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the bending
        of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on the
        path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on the
        tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
        parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
        changes help get me up in the morning. Bill


        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

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        To visit your group on the web, go to:
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      • Mary Jo Malo
        Bill, Though gravity takes a greater toll on me these days than in the past, I can t help but appreciate the gravity of this place. Learning about photons and
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 29, 2003
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          Bill,

          Though gravity takes a greater toll on me these days than in the past, I can't help but appreciate the gravity of this place. Learning about photons and gravity stirs me as much as anything else I enjoy and helps me to get up in the morning. Photons, protons and gravity are me, so to speak. If others wish me not to be interested or prefer that I consider only their view about what gets them up in the morning, well they can just get bent :-)

          Mary Go Lightly

          bhvwd <valleywestdental@...> wrote:
          Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no sentients
          to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as the
          sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the sound
          waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear and
          experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
          planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium would
          still happen without our note. Those changes would not be chronicled
          without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
          exist.
          The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
          factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of one
          earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as the
          number could have been based on the rotational interval of Venus,
          Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same velocity
          without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances in
          space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and its
          distance parameter.
          The classical grid depection of space time under the influence of
          great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the bending
          of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on the
          path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on the
          tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
          parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
          changes help get me up in the morning. Bill



          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)



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        • Mary Jo Malo
          eduard, Let s swap resources. Here s one I found at Scientific American, but it s from last year.
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 29, 2003
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            eduard,

            Let's swap resources. Here's one I found at Scientific American, but
            it's from last year.

            <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0007E95C-9597-1DC9-
            AF71809EC588EEDF>

            Your article sounds like it might be more recent.

            Jo

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
            > Bill,
            >
            > I am not explaining myself too well ...
            >
            > The article in Scientific American makes the point that time is not
            continuous, but rather comes in quanta.
            >
            > We are accustomed to think of time and space as being continuous.
            In the sense that you can always divide in into smaller and smaller
            portions. But other things come in quanta. For example the energy
            levels of electrons.
            >
            > Think of it this way. We have a time interval of a minute .. which
            of course is entirely arbitrary to suit the way we measure things.
            And we think of this minute as being divided into seconds ... and the
            second into even smaller values. But what if the minute were only
            divisible into seconds?? That time came in only increments of one
            second. I suppose that if you watched a horse race, on this basis,
            you would see the horse move ahead in one increment after another,
            but never in between.
            >
            > Of course the increment that they are speaking about is much less
            than a second. The quantumization of space implies a similar non-
            zero quanta of area and volume. The Plank length is 10^-33
            centimeters. The nonzero minimum area is then 10^-66 square
            centimeters and the nonzero minimum volume is 1^-99 cubic
            centimeters. The quanta of time is the Plank time or 10^-43 seconds.
            >
            > All of which is awfully small, and it doesn't get me up in the
            morning. But also interesting. Sort of reminds me of that scene in
            Lawnmower Man where the bad guys are separated into particles.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: bhvwd
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:09 PM
            > Subject: [existlist] Time and space
            >
            >
            > Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no
            sentients
            > to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as
            the
            > sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the
            sound
            > waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear
            and
            > experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
            > planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium
            would
            > still happen without our note. Those changes would not be
            chronicled
            > without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
            > exist.
            > The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
            > factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of
            one
            > earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as
            the
            > number could have been based on the rotational interval of
            Venus,
            > Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same
            velocity
            > without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances
            in
            > space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and
            its
            > distance parameter.
            > The classical grid depection of space time under the influence
            of
            > great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the
            bending
            > of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on
            the
            > path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on
            the
            > tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
            > parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
            > changes help get me up in the morning. Bill
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eduard at home
            Mary, I saw that article and did not make much of it at the time. I still have to finish the article that I am reading now ... eduard ... From: Mary Jo Malo
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 29, 2003
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              Mary,

              I saw that article and did not make much of it at the time.

              I still have to finish the article that I am reading now ...

              eduard


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Mary Jo Malo
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 3:10 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Time and space


              eduard,

              Let's swap resources. Here's one I found at Scientific American, but
              it's from last year.

              <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0007E95C-9597-1DC9-AF71809EC588EEDF>


              Your article sounds like it might be more recent.

              Jo

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
              > Bill,
              >
              > I am not explaining myself too well ...
              >
              > The article in Scientific American makes the point that time is not
              continuous, but rather comes in quanta.
              >
              > We are accustomed to think of time and space as being continuous.
              In the sense that you can always divide in into smaller and smaller
              portions. But other things come in quanta. For example the energy
              levels of electrons.
              >
              > Think of it this way. We have a time interval of a minute .. which
              of course is entirely arbitrary to suit the way we measure things.
              And we think of this minute as being divided into seconds ... and the
              second into even smaller values. But what if the minute were only
              divisible into seconds?? That time came in only increments of one
              second. I suppose that if you watched a horse race, on this basis,
              you would see the horse move ahead in one increment after another,
              but never in between.
              >
              > Of course the increment that they are speaking about is much less
              than a second. The quantumization of space implies a similar non-
              zero quanta of area and volume. The Plank length is 10^-33
              centimeters. The nonzero minimum area is then 10^-66 square
              centimeters and the nonzero minimum volume is 1^-99 cubic
              centimeters. The quanta of time is the Plank time or 10^-43 seconds.
              >
              > All of which is awfully small, and it doesn't get me up in the
              morning. But also interesting. Sort of reminds me of that scene in
              Lawnmower Man where the bad guys are separated into particles.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: bhvwd
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:09 PM
              > Subject: [existlist] Time and space
              >
              >
              > Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no
              sentients
              > to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as
              the
              > sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the
              sound
              > waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear
              and
              > experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
              > planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium
              would
              > still happen without our note. Those changes would not be
              chronicled
              > without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
              > exist.
              > The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
              > factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of
              one
              > earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as
              the
              > number could have been based on the rotational interval of
              Venus,
              > Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same
              velocity
              > without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances
              in
              > space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and
              its
              > distance parameter.
              > The classical grid depection of space time under the influence
              of
              > great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the
              bending
              > of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on
              the
              > path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on
              the
              > tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
              > parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
              > changes help get me up in the morning. Bill
              >
              >
              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)


              Yahoo! Groups Links

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nosnibor
              All, Happy New Year! There s a reason to keep our resolutions and make this one better than the last illusion! If we are resigned to living our lives over and
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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                All,

                Happy New Year! There's a reason to keep our resolutions and make this one
                better than the last illusion! If we are resigned to living our lives over
                and over an infinite number of times, it makes each moment of fantastic
                importance. As Bill Murray decided to do in "Ground Hog Day", practice "Amor
                Fati" and make that existence infinitely better. Challenge yourself to
                answer the question of your existence. Can you say, "Yes, I would happily
                live the same life again, an infiite number of times!"

                Please enjoy my essay. It's aboiut five pages long.

                "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

                "Mankind's greatest invention is compound interest."

                - A. Einstein -



                Money Is Time

                The purpose this essay is to think about time in a simple, poetic, way; and,
                by inverting a colloquial statement, enable us to think about time as a
                medium of exchange, and maybe not real at all. Just as all poetry ultimately
                suggests either how to live or to avoid living, one's life, my insight into
                the nature of Time will not have any intrinsic value. Just take it for what
                it is, a prose poem, if such a thing is not a contradiction in terms.

                Let's begin with "Time Is Money". Allow it to play around in your
                imagination. Although it's probably not precise enough to be used by
                mathematicians, generally speaking, when lay people say that one thing "is"
                another, it is possible to imagine an equal ( = ) symbol between the two, or
                more, things being compared. Thus, if we reverse "Time Is Money", and state,
                "Money Is Time", it would not be inconsistent to reason that if we
                understand how money functions, we also have a useful mechanism for
                understanding time.

                The definition of money is well known. Money is a medium of exchange and
                value. Well, as a practical matter, what does that mean? It means that,
                before the invention of money, it was necessary for individuals to meet
                face-to-face to conduct transactions for goods and services. If person A had
                a camel, but needed a tent, person B had a tent, but needed goats, and
                person C had goats but needed a camel, they all had to get together at an
                agreed upon place and make the exchange.

                This requirement of a face-to-face meeting for transactions led to the rise
                of the bazaar, where all the items, either necessary or discretionary, for
                day-to-day living could be exchanged. A common meeting area is usually, but
                not always, functional, and often inconvenient. What if you didn't want to
                go? If all you need is a tent, why should you have to put up with stepping
                in camel dung, or being butted by goats? Or, what if no one at the bazaar
                had what you needed in exchange for what you had to offer?

                These problems were solved when someone of sufficient authority, influence,
                and power, created a medium of exchange. What ever the form of money,
                authority, influence and power are key. Whether it was brass, gold, paper,
                or shell, two individuals, confident in the authority of the issuer, could
                conduct transactions without the necessity of a third party. Voila! Everyone
                within the influence, power, and under the authority of the issuer now
                enjoys a type of freedom, provided they possess sufficient quantities of the
                medium of exchange.

                The larger point is, of course, that the medium of exchange is conceptual,
                based on confidence. Money does not exist. Functionally, you'd be quite
                disappointed if you either tried to eat, wear, or use it as shelter. If the
                authority of the issuer is sufficiently challenged, money immediately loses
                value inversely proportional to the challenge, to the point of being
                worthless. In the same way, if you go beyond the boundary of the issuing
                authority, Money must be exchanged and will have either a higher or lower
                value relative to the local currency. Even though the rate of exchange might
                be close, even match from time to time, events, both those that are
                exclusive to the two issuers, and those that involve the entire world, can
                and will drive a wedge between currencies.

                As a general proposition, as the cultural and physical distance grows, the
                likelihood that sovereign authorities will entertain any thoughts of a
                unified medium of exchange diminishes. Consider two cases, one of culturally
                and physically close authorities, and one where the distance is literally
                and metaphorically vast. A majority of Canadians live within a two-hour
                drive of the United States. Canadians and Americans easily and naturally
                cross the border for basic goods and services. Be that as it may, if a
                Canadian visits the United States and purchases either a good or service,
                while the rules are close, dollars and fractions thereof are not exactly the
                same. The issuing authorities are significantly different. The difference
                keeps the rate of exchange in flux. Yet, it is a commodious difference.

                In the second case, as the cultural and physical distance grows, the two
                will likely never meet. China and the United States have, as a percent of
                their populations, minimal exchange. Obviously, the United States, wealthier
                by far and also allowing the free travel of its citizens and legal
                residents, will continue to have a great advantage in this regard for some
                time. However, that fact does not alleviate the feeling that the exchange of
                currency is, for both Americans going to China, and Chinese coming to the
                United States, very odd indeed.

                It is tempting to go for a simple solution. Since the value of money is
                found in the confidence of the issuing authority, why not have one authority
                issue for all, such as the European Union's (EU) "Euro"? The Euro experiment
                is relatively new and time will tell whether or not this solution takes
                institutional root. For the present, the most credible view appears to be
                that to allow a medium of exchange to be imposed is to give up a measure of
                power. The erstwhile issuer is now being issued to, a difficult posture to
                accept and comfortably maintain. While the fifteen nation EU has, arguably,
                the closest cultural and economic ties of any region on earth, it is still
                not a perfect union, by any measure. Political infighting and sniping
                between leaders of the EU betrays its foundation as tenuous. The sharing of
                authority, influence, and power was a daunting obstacle to, even
                momentarily, overcome, and remains the most dangerous threat for the long
                term.

                The above statements about the Euro, were based upon anecdotal information
                from German tourists, was recently confirmed by Sweden's rejection of the
                Euro. This rejection was in spite of an expected sympathy vote. One of the
                Euro's leading supporters had been murdered in Stockholm just before the
                referendum. Now, the likelihood of the Euro being adopted by two other
                notable holdouts, Denmark and Great Britain, is even more remote.













                II

                The easy, and immediate, distinction between Money and Time is that, while
                the world squabbles over a medium of exchange for financial transactions and
                occurrences, a medium of exchange for events and transactions between and
                among human beings is well established. The announcement is made every day
                that, "It's noon in New York and nine a.m. out west; or, it's noon in London
                and seven a.m. in New York." Surely Time must be more than a medium of
                exchange. For several reasons, the functional and psychological appeal of
                reasoning that proceeds as, "everyone agrees, so it must be real", fails.
                Time on earth is divided into 24 zones. This functions quite well. The earth
                is a sphere, 360 degrees around. If you divide 360 by 15, roughly the
                degrees in each time zone, the result is 24. Since first world individuals
                and nations are commercially interdependent, and the mathematics are simple,
                seconds, minutes, hours, and the fractions and multiples thereof, are
                regarded as real.

                Yet, for precisely the same reasons that the world can't agree on a medium
                of exchange for financial transactions and events, it is possible to agree
                about time.

                The root of the agreement lies in authority, influence, and power. Just as
                an individual or nation that must surrender some measure of authority,
                influence, and power, when a currency is imposed upon them, it is painless
                to adopt a universal standard for time because nothing is given up.
                Similarly, if someone from the first world tries to complete a transaction
                with an individual who is either not attached to the first world, or only
                marginally participates in it, it's difficult to complete the transaction,
                even when successful completion is beneficial to both sides. My experience
                as an Immigration Officer dealing with Native Americans confirms this.

                Native Americans who can establish 50% quantum blood are exempt immigration
                requirements established by the Congress of the United States government.
                Thus, Native Americans born in Canada have no limitations on taking up legal
                residence in the United States. As anyone who has ever tried to take up
                legal residency in a country other than their country or origin knows, it is
                a protracted and tedious process. Generally, regardless of enthusiasm,
                healthy, law-abiding individuals who want to immigrate to another country
                face quotas and other restrictions. Individuals who have been convicted of
                crimes, or who test positive for aids, face exclusion. Of course, it is
                always possible to assume the posture of "authorities be damned, I'm
                coming". However, that route precludes the possibility gaining proper
                documentation, and ultimately limits the very opportunity that was the
                original magnet. To be free from grounds of exclusion and quotas, as Native
                Americans are, is a huge advantage.

                Be that as it may, the devil is in the few details. Not only are Native
                Americans

                unfamiliar with using documents to establish eligibility and to meet
                requirements, but also, their concept of time, as a medium of exchange, for
                transactions, and probably events as well, is quite unique. When the
                documentation is lacking to establish their heritage, it's necessary to
                arrange an appointment to complete registration and process them for a
                permanent resident card, euphemistically known as the "green card". It didn'
                t take very long for me to realize that any appointment, as I understand the
                concept, is perilous. The Native American may come back to complete their
                registration at the agreed upon time. However, it is far more likely that
                they well disappear for weeks, months, even years, and then suddenly return.
                The most startling aspect of this is the genuine expectation that any moment
                they return fulfills their concept of an appointment!

                In my personal experience, the longest gap between the American Official
                making an appointment and the return of the Native American was five years,
                eight months! Clearly, it is just as difficult for some Native Americans to
                exchange time with someone outside their culture as it is for an American to
                exchange currency in China. Yet, I've never met an individual from the first
                world who, within the context of an immigration appointment for a benefit,
                fails to appear, without an explanation.

                The ultimate example of time as nothing more than an agreed upon medium of
                exchange comes in either, reflection upon an event, or the attempt to convey
                one's experience of the same event to another. In the case of personal
                reflection, all time can be compressed into an instant. Consider either your
                most embarrassing moment or proudest accomplishment. That moment, and all of
                the attendant circumstances, can be relived, completely and vividly, in our
                mind in an instant. There appears to be no limit to this capacity. It is
                well known that individuals who escaped from an event where they thought
                they were going to die often report having their whole lives pass before
                their eyes, . amazing.

                In the second case, take something that you've experienced, not simply
                witnessed, and try to convey that to another, completely. Although it may be
                possible to convey the experience sufficiently, it cannot be done
                completely. Take, for example, the running of a 10-kilometer foot race. Such
                a race typically takes a fit runner between 40 and 50 minutes. Yet, to
                describe the experience to another, even a close and patient friend, could
                take much, much longer. The runner is experiencing so much - how he/she was
                feeling before the race, the course, the weather, who else was running, the
                spectators, etc., that the experience can be stretched far beyond the
                capacity the most accommodating listener.

                Where does this reasoning lead? I'm not really sure, except that if you view
                both money and time as nothing more than mediums of exchange, it can be very
                exciting. Such excitement is sufficient for another essay, but more to the
                point, has already been discussed by virtually all of the Existentialist
                philosophers. Time primarily functions as a medium of exchange to record
                events, but also may involve a transaction in the form of an appointment to
                perform or receive either a good or a service. Money is used to primarily
                facilitate transactions, but also can be used to facilitate events, be they
                celebrations or memorial services.

                Time is the most useful medium of exchange available to examine the events
                of our universe because we, within accepting cultures, can all agree how it
                is to be measured. Yet, it is difficult to prove that it exists at all.
                There are plenty of cultures, the most obvious to me is the example of the
                Native American experience, as a member of that ethnic group to navigate
                event and transactions with the rest of the human race. Similarly, the
                Australian aborigines have two epochs - the "Dream Time" and the "Time
                Before Trousers". To say that their concept of time is not a valid medium is
                to deny their very humanity. The birth of the universe was an event. The
                birth and death of stars, plants, and galaxies are events. Time appears to
                have been invented to record those events - birth and death, for all
                eternity.























                Robin
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "bhvwd" <valleywestdental@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 10:09 AM
                Subject: [existlist] Time and space


                > Eduard, Time is mans measurement of change. Were there no sentients
                > to experience and calibrate change it is the same connundrum as the
                > sound of a tree falling in the forest. I think we agree the sound
                > waves exist but are not experienced if no one is there to hear and
                > experience those auditory waves. The changes we calibrate by
                > planetary orbits or more recently the atomic decay of cesium would
                > still happen without our note. Those changes would not be chronicled
                > without us and therefore time , in a technical sense, would not
                > exist.
                > The measurement of space at cosmic distances, includes a time
                > factor. The light year exposes a photon to the time factor of one
                > earth`s rotation about the sun. It is completely arbitrary as the
                > number could have been based on the rotational interval of Venus,
                > Mars ect. Again, the photon would still travel at the same velocity
                > without our measurement so the measurement of cosmic distances in
                > space is a man made calculation in both its time factoring and its
                > distance parameter.
                > The classical grid depection of space time under the influence of
                > great masses is a model. The distortion of the grid and the bending
                > of a photons path show the relativistic affects of great mass on the
                > path of light. There is no grid in space, there is no speaker on the
                > tree, there is no clock on the sun. We use these instruments and
                > parameters to inform our neurons of the changes about us. Those
                > changes help get me up in the morning. Bill
                >
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