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Re: [existlist] The Failure of "Love"

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  • eduard at home
    Nice ... but I think I am analyzing it too much. I am not into kissing at the bottom of the ocean. eduard ... From: Mary Jo Malo To:
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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      Nice ... but I think I am analyzing it too much. I am not
      into kissing at the bottom of the ocean.

      eduard

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:01 PM
      Subject: [existlist] The Failure of "Love"


      > The Bottom of the Ocean
      >
      > She watches herself in her water;
      > every silver orb a face to dance a wave,
      > every wave an undulating Goddess hip.
      > Atlantic moon pours out her cold remorse,
      > and stirs the skin above the great abyss.
      >
      > At first my eyes were open,
      > the light of faces in my desperate dreams,
      > cloying at my meaning, given names,
      > afloat and touched like trances
      > ever onward toward my truth.
      >
      > Yet sinking ever deeper I grew blind,
      > commingling tears with deeper darker flows,
      > hard pressing every secret from my soul;
      > to write the truth onto this archived wall,
      > at the bottom of the ocean in my blood.
      >
      > Every savior sleeps beneath this flood,
      > shadows haunting temple ruins below,
      > drifting in the current of the dark,
      > renamed at last by drunkeness and fear
      > too deep to reach the light of common sense.
      >
      > And every kingdom settles to this floor
      > tossed to twisted wrecks by storms of words,
      > grand endeavors crushed beneath the weight
      > of endless tears of error from blinded eyes.
      >
      > Each Atlantis finds its falling star.
      > And when a heart is waiting to explode,
      > a heaving chest exhausted just for breath
      > lingering just to sing this song of death,
      > "Come kiss me, hold me close, and say goodbye"
      > at the bottom of the ocean - there we are.
      >
      > T M Malo
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Mary Jo Malo
      Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author and usually understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and blindness. ...too deep to reach
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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        Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author and usually
        understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
        blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common sense..."

        Despite the current predictability and inevitability of death, Death
        is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails to
        perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of reality and
        continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and love should
        exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and "love"
        can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss. It's
        unacceptable.

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
        > Nice ... but I think I am analyzing it too much. I am not
        > into kissing at the bottom of the ocean.
        >
        > eduard
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:01 PM
        > Subject: [existlist] The Failure of "Love"
        >
        >
        > > The Bottom of the Ocean
        > >
        > > She watches herself in her water;
        > > every silver orb a face to dance a wave,
        > > every wave an undulating Goddess hip.
        > > Atlantic moon pours out her cold remorse,
        > > and stirs the skin above the great abyss.
        > >
        > > At first my eyes were open,
        > > the light of faces in my desperate dreams,
        > > cloying at my meaning, given names,
        > > afloat and touched like trances
        > > ever onward toward my truth.
        > >
        > > Yet sinking ever deeper I grew blind,
        > > commingling tears with deeper darker flows,
        > > hard pressing every secret from my soul;
        > > to write the truth onto this archived wall,
        > > at the bottom of the ocean in my blood.
        > >
        > > Every savior sleeps beneath this flood,
        > > shadows haunting temple ruins below,
        > > drifting in the current of the dark,
        > > renamed at last by drunkeness and fear
        > > too deep to reach the light of common sense.
        > >
        > > And every kingdom settles to this floor
        > > tossed to twisted wrecks by storms of words,
        > > grand endeavors crushed beneath the weight
        > > of endless tears of error from blinded eyes.
        > >
        > > Each Atlantis finds its falling star.
        > > And when a heart is waiting to explode,
        > > a heaving chest exhausted just for breath
        > > lingering just to sing this song of death,
        > > "Come kiss me, hold me close, and say goodbye"
        > > at the bottom of the ocean - there we are.
        > >
        > > T M Malo
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
        > Sponsor ---------------------~-->
        > > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson,
        > Canon or Lexmark
        > > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to
        > the US & Canada.
        > > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
        > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/ACsqlB/TM
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > -----------~->
        > >
        > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        > >
        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
      • eduard at home
        But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction whilst we go through the process of dying. I would grant that people and love should exist
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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          But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
          whilst we go through the process of dying.

          I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
          than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.

          People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
          mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
          natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
          forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
          the process.

          eduard

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
          Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


          > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
          and usually
          > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
          > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
          sense..."
          >
          > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
          death, Death
          > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
          to
          > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
          reality and
          > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
          love should
          > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
          "love"
          > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
          It's
          > unacceptable.
          >
          > Mary
        • Mary Jo Malo
          It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest expression that any thing can be. It s dignity is brighter than the sun. Mary
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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            It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest
            expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is brighter than the
            sun.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
            > But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
            > whilst we go through the process of dying.
            >
            > I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
            > than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.
            >
            > People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
            > mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
            > natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
            > forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
            > the process.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
            >
            >
            > > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
            > and usually
            > > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
            > > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
            > sense..."
            > >
            > > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
            > death, Death
            > > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
            > to
            > > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
            > reality and
            > > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
            > love should
            > > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
            > "love"
            > > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
            > It's
            > > unacceptable.
            > >
            > > Mary
          • eduard at home
            Mary, Why?? In some ways a mushroom is possibly just as best and highest an expression. Why should we place ourselves above everything else?? eduard ...
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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              Mary,

              Why?? In some ways a mushroom is possibly just as best and
              highest an expression. Why should we place ourselves above
              everything else??

              eduard


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:22 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


              > It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and
              highest
              > expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is
              brighter than the
              > sun.
              >
              > Mary
            • Mary Jo Malo
              Because we are superior to the shrooms. We can love and wonder why. Mary
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                Because we are superior to the shrooms. We can love and wonder why.
                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                > Mary,
                >
                > Why?? In some ways a mushroom is possibly just as best and
                > highest an expression. Why should we place ourselves above
                > everything else??
                >
                > eduard
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:22 PM
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                >
                >
                > > It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and
                > highest
                > > expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is
                > brighter than the
                > > sun.
                > >
                > > Mary
              • foreignngierof
                Considering the state of being human to be the best and highest expression that any thing can be is mere foolishness. Humanity is a body of consciousness
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                  Considering the state of being human to be "the best and highest
                  expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness. Humanity is
                  a body of consciousness induced suffering... Ignorance--and in our
                  case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be a pig than
                  a human.
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest
                  > expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is brighter than
                  the
                  > sun.
                  >
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                  wrote:
                  > > But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
                  > > whilst we go through the process of dying.
                  > >
                  > > I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
                  > > than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.
                  > >
                  > > People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
                  > > mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
                  > > natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
                  > > forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
                  > > the process.
                  > >
                  > > eduard
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
                  > > and usually
                  > > > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
                  > > > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
                  > > sense..."
                  > > >
                  > > > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
                  > > death, Death
                  > > > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
                  > > to
                  > > > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
                  > > reality and
                  > > > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
                  > > love should
                  > > > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
                  > > "love"
                  > > > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
                  > > It's
                  > > > unacceptable.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary
                • eduard at home
                  Just because we can, doesn t mean that we are superior. You are not only making your conclusion, but also applying your own criteria for that conclusion.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                    Just because we can, doesn't mean that we are superior. You
                    are not only making your conclusion, but also applying your
                    own criteria for that conclusion. Perhaps the mushroom is
                    doing the same, but does not see the need to advertise it.

                    I will need to do some more thinking on this as I am lacking
                    the words for proper expression. Stand by ...

                    eduard

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:33 PM
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                    > Because we are superior to the shrooms. We can love and
                    wonder why.
                    > Mary
                  • eduard at home
                    foreignngierof, But then you are making the very same mistake. You are applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig and then concluding that this
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                      foreignngierof,

                      But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                      applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                      and then concluding that this might be better than being
                      human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                      have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                      t'other.

                      eduard

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                      > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                      highest
                      > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                      Humanity is
                      > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                      Ignorance--and in our
                      > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                      a pig than
                      > a human.
                    • Mary Jo Malo
                      Perhaps your life is mere foolishness. Perhaps you induce suffering. Perhaps you are ignorant and stupid and blissful. Perhaps you are a pig. I m not. That s
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                        Perhaps your life is mere foolishness. Perhaps you induce suffering.
                        Perhaps you are ignorant and stupid and blissful. Perhaps you are a
                        pig. I'm not. That's the nice thing about existentialism. Mine is
                        mine and you can't change that.

                        Mary

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                        <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                        > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and highest
                        > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness. Humanity
                        is
                        > a body of consciousness induced suffering... Ignorance--and in our
                        > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be a pig
                        than
                        > a human.
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest
                        > > expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is brighter than
                        > the
                        > > sun.
                        > >
                        > > Mary
                        > >
                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
                        > > > whilst we go through the process of dying.
                        > > >
                        > > > I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
                        > > > than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.
                        > > >
                        > > > People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
                        > > > mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
                        > > > natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
                        > > > forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
                        > > > the process.
                        > > >
                        > > > eduard
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                        > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
                        > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
                        > > > and usually
                        > > > > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
                        > > > > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
                        > > > sense..."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
                        > > > death, Death
                        > > > > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
                        > > > to
                        > > > > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
                        > > > reality and
                        > > > > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
                        > > > love should
                        > > > > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
                        > > > "love"
                        > > > > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
                        > > > It's
                        > > > > unacceptable.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mary
                      • Mary Jo Malo
                        I make my conclusions because I can. The pigs and their truffles can not. Mary
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                          I make my conclusions because I can. The pigs and their truffles can
                          not. Mary

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                          > Just because we can, doesn't mean that we are superior. You
                          > are not only making your conclusion, but also applying your
                          > own criteria for that conclusion. Perhaps the mushroom is
                          > doing the same, but does not see the need to advertise it.
                          >
                          > I will need to do some more thinking on this as I am lacking
                          > the words for proper expression. Stand by ...
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:33 PM
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                          >
                          >
                          > > Because we are superior to the shrooms. We can love and
                          > wonder why.
                          > > Mary
                        • foreignngierof
                          No, I m using my own alleged gift of reason to demonstrate that a pig s lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we are... I am reasoning, after all (in
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                            No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to demonstrate
                            that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we are... I
                            am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                            I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively the "best and
                            highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying, subjective
                            consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to be a pig
                            than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                            > foreignngierof,
                            >
                            > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                            > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                            > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                            > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                            > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                            > t'other.
                            >
                            > eduard
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                            > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                            >
                            >
                            > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                            > highest
                            > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                            > Humanity is
                            > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                            > Ignorance--and in our
                            > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                            > a pig than
                            > > a human.
                          • foreignngierof
                            I agree--and you ll see, if you read carefully, that your arguement doesn t contradict my own. In fact--in case you didn t notice--I m supporting subjectivity.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                              I agree--and you'll see, if you read carefully, that your arguement
                              doesn't contradict my own. In fact--in case you didn't notice--I'm
                              supporting subjectivity.

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > Perhaps your life is mere foolishness. Perhaps you induce
                              suffering.
                              > Perhaps you are ignorant and stupid and blissful. Perhaps you are a
                              > pig. I'm not. That's the nice thing about existentialism. Mine is
                              > mine and you can't change that.
                              >
                              > Mary
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                              > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                              > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and highest
                              > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness. Humanity
                              > is
                              > > a body of consciousness induced suffering... Ignorance--and in
                              our
                              > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be a pig
                              > than
                              > > a human.
                              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest
                              > > > expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is brighter
                              than
                              > > the
                              > > > sun.
                              > > >
                              > > > Mary
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > > But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
                              > > > > whilst we go through the process of dying.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
                              > > > > than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
                              > > > > mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
                              > > > > natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
                              > > > > forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
                              > > > > the process.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > eduard
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                              > > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
                              > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
                              > > > > and usually
                              > > > > > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
                              > > > > > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
                              > > > > sense..."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
                              > > > > death, Death
                              > > > > > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
                              > > > > to
                              > > > > > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
                              > > > > reality and
                              > > > > > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
                              > > > > love should
                              > > > > > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
                              > > > > "love"
                              > > > > > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
                              > > > > It's
                              > > > > > unacceptable.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Mary
                            • Mary Jo Malo
                              Whatever the perspective , go for it. Be the pig. That s making wonderful use of the gift of reason. Be the pig and enjoy your truffles. Objectively or
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's making
                                wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy your
                                truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is stopping
                                you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original thinking, not
                                this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing objective to
                                anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's subjective is
                                that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.

                                Mary

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to demonstrate
                                > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we are... I
                                > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively the "best
                                and
                                > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying, subjective
                                > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to be a pig
                                > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                                wrote:
                                > > foreignngierof,
                                > >
                                > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                                > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                > > t'other.
                                > >
                                > > eduard
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                                > > highest
                                > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                                > > Humanity is
                                > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                > > Ignorance--and in our
                                > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                                > > a pig than
                                > > > a human.
                              • foreignngierof
                                Oh really? So now you re contradicting yourself... In fact, you re contradicting existentialism. You assume your own perspective/opinion to be objective, yet
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                  Oh really? So now you're contradicting yourself... In fact, you're
                                  contradicting existentialism. You assume your own perspective/opinion
                                  to be objective, yet you imply that perception and opinion are
                                  subjective simply by the fact that you claim to be an existentialist.
                                  Odd, uncanny and foul you are, proving yourself less than a pig...
                                  And I didn't even have to exert the effort to argue your inferiority.

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's making
                                  > wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy your
                                  > truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is stopping
                                  > you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original thinking, not
                                  > this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing objective
                                  to
                                  > anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's subjective is
                                  > that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.
                                  >
                                  > Mary
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                  > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                  > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to demonstrate
                                  > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we are...
                                  I
                                  > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                  > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively the "best
                                  > and
                                  > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying, subjective
                                  > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to be a
                                  pig
                                  > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > foreignngierof,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                  > > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                                  > > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                  > > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                  > > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                  > > > t'other.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > eduard
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                  > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                                  > > > highest
                                  > > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                                  > > > Humanity is
                                  > > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                  > > > Ignorance--and in our
                                  > > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                                  > > > a pig than
                                  > > > > a human.
                                • Mary Jo Malo
                                  Silly Jedi mind tricks. You are your own worst enemy. You turn your mind against yourself. If I contradict myself, I m still more than a pig. Pigs can t
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                    Silly Jedi mind tricks. You are your own worst enemy. You turn your
                                    mind against yourself. If I contradict myself, I'm still more than a
                                    pig. Pigs can't contradict themselves. My opinion is subjective. What
                                    is objective is that a pig exists, you exist, and I exist. What is
                                    subjective is our view of relative value of each in the cosmos.
                                    Perhaps pigshit has more value than my individual life. In your
                                    world, you may be right. In my world I'm worth more than pigs or
                                    pigshit.

                                    Mary

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                    <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                    > Oh really? So now you're contradicting yourself... In fact, you're
                                    > contradicting existentialism. You assume your own
                                    perspective/opinion
                                    > to be objective, yet you imply that perception and opinion are
                                    > subjective simply by the fact that you claim to be an
                                    existentialist.
                                    > Odd, uncanny and foul you are, proving yourself less than a pig...
                                    > And I didn't even have to exert the effort to argue your
                                    inferiority.
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's making
                                    > > wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy your
                                    > > truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is
                                    stopping
                                    > > you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original thinking,
                                    not
                                    > > this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing objective
                                    > to
                                    > > anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's subjective is
                                    > > that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.
                                    > >
                                    > > Mary
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                    > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                    demonstrate
                                    > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we
                                    are...
                                    > I
                                    > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                    > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                    the "best
                                    > > and
                                    > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying, subjective
                                    > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to be a
                                    > pig
                                    > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                    > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > > foreignngierof,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                    > > > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                                    > > > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                    > > > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                    > > > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                    > > > > t'other.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > eduard
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                    > > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                                    > > > > highest
                                    > > > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                                    > > > > Humanity is
                                    > > > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                    > > > > Ignorance--and in our
                                    > > > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                                    > > > > a pig than
                                    > > > > > a human.
                                  • foreignngierof
                                    Yes, I choose that path, but for a purpose. I apologize for my outburst and for being insulting. I was angered because you (basically) stated that I m not
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                      Yes, I choose that path, but for a purpose. I apologize for my
                                      outburst and for being insulting. I was angered because you
                                      (basically) stated that I'm not producing anything objective. That is
                                      correct, but neither are you, as opinions are subjective.
                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Silly Jedi mind tricks. You are your own worst enemy. You turn your
                                      > mind against yourself. If I contradict myself, I'm still more than
                                      a
                                      > pig. Pigs can't contradict themselves. My opinion is subjective.
                                      What
                                      > is objective is that a pig exists, you exist, and I exist. What is
                                      > subjective is our view of relative value of each in the cosmos.
                                      > Perhaps pigshit has more value than my individual life. In your
                                      > world, you may be right. In my world I'm worth more than pigs or
                                      > pigshit.
                                      >
                                      > Mary
                                      >
                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                      > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                      > > Oh really? So now you're contradicting yourself... In fact,
                                      you're
                                      > > contradicting existentialism. You assume your own
                                      > perspective/opinion
                                      > > to be objective, yet you imply that perception and opinion are
                                      > > subjective simply by the fact that you claim to be an
                                      > existentialist.
                                      > > Odd, uncanny and foul you are, proving yourself less than a
                                      pig...
                                      > > And I didn't even have to exert the effort to argue your
                                      > inferiority.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's
                                      making
                                      > > > wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy
                                      your
                                      > > > truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is
                                      > stopping
                                      > > > you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original thinking,
                                      > not
                                      > > > this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing
                                      objective
                                      > > to
                                      > > > anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's subjective
                                      is
                                      > > > that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Mary
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                      > > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                      > demonstrate
                                      > > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we
                                      > are...
                                      > > I
                                      > > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                      > > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                      > the "best
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying, subjective
                                      > > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to be
                                      a
                                      > > pig
                                      > > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                      > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home
                                      <yeoman@v...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > foreignngierof,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                      > > > > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                                      > > > > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                      > > > > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                      > > > > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                      > > > > > t'other.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > eduard
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                      > > > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                      > > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                                      > > > > > highest
                                      > > > > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                                      > > > > > Humanity is
                                      > > > > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                      > > > > > Ignorance--and in our
                                      > > > > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to be
                                      > > > > > a pig than
                                      > > > > > > a human.
                                    • Mary Jo Malo
                                      I wasn t saying that you weren t producing anything objective. I believe very little is objective in this universe. That s not my concern, if it matters at
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                        I wasn't saying that you weren't producing anything objective. I
                                        believe very little is objective in this universe. That's not my
                                        concern, if it matters at all. I just hate silly mental gymnastics
                                        that exist for the purpose of proving not much of anything. You know?

                                        As Bob Dylan wrote, "...there are many here among us, who think that
                                        life is but a joke. But you and I we've been throught that, and this
                                        is not our fate..."

                                        Mary Jo

                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                        <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                        > Yes, I choose that path, but for a purpose. I apologize for my
                                        > outburst and for being insulting. I was angered because you
                                        > (basically) stated that I'm not producing anything objective. That
                                        is
                                        > correct, but neither are you, as opinions are subjective.
                                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > Silly Jedi mind tricks. You are your own worst enemy. You turn
                                        your
                                        > > mind against yourself. If I contradict myself, I'm still more
                                        than
                                        > a
                                        > > pig. Pigs can't contradict themselves. My opinion is subjective.
                                        > What
                                        > > is objective is that a pig exists, you exist, and I exist. What
                                        is
                                        > > subjective is our view of relative value of each in the cosmos.
                                        > > Perhaps pigshit has more value than my individual life. In your
                                        > > world, you may be right. In my world I'm worth more than pigs or
                                        > > pigshit.
                                        > >
                                        > > Mary
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                        > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                        > > > Oh really? So now you're contradicting yourself... In fact,
                                        > you're
                                        > > > contradicting existentialism. You assume your own
                                        > > perspective/opinion
                                        > > > to be objective, yet you imply that perception and opinion are
                                        > > > subjective simply by the fact that you claim to be an
                                        > > existentialist.
                                        > > > Odd, uncanny and foul you are, proving yourself less than a
                                        > pig...
                                        > > > And I didn't even have to exert the effort to argue your
                                        > > inferiority.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo"
                                        <alcyon11@y...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's
                                        > making
                                        > > > > wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy
                                        > your
                                        > > > > truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is
                                        > > stopping
                                        > > > > you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original
                                        thinking,
                                        > > not
                                        > > > > this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing
                                        > objective
                                        > > > to
                                        > > > > anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's
                                        subjective
                                        > is
                                        > > > > that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Mary
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                        > > > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                        > > demonstrate
                                        > > > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we
                                        > > are...
                                        > > > I
                                        > > > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                        > > > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                        > > the "best
                                        > > > > and
                                        > > > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                        subjective
                                        > > > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to
                                        be
                                        > a
                                        > > > pig
                                        > > > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                        > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home
                                        > <yeoman@v...>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > foreignngierof,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                        > > > > > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a pig
                                        > > > > > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                        > > > > > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                        > > > > > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                        > > > > > > t'other.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > eduard
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                        > > > > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                        > > > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best and
                                        > > > > > > highest
                                        > > > > > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere foolishness.
                                        > > > > > > Humanity is
                                        > > > > > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                        > > > > > > Ignorance--and in our
                                        > > > > > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better to
                                        be
                                        > > > > > > a pig than
                                        > > > > > > > a human.
                                      • foreignngierof
                                        I see we ve accomplished something here, on one side or the other ;-) Maybe both. ... know? ... that ... this ... That ... subjective. ... or ... are ... we
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 4, 2003
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                                          I see we've accomplished something here, on one side or the other ;-)
                                          Maybe both.

                                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > I wasn't saying that you weren't producing anything objective. I
                                          > believe very little is objective in this universe. That's not my
                                          > concern, if it matters at all. I just hate silly mental gymnastics
                                          > that exist for the purpose of proving not much of anything. You
                                          know?
                                          >
                                          > As Bob Dylan wrote, "...there are many here among us, who think
                                          that
                                          > life is but a joke. But you and I we've been throught that, and
                                          this
                                          > is not our fate..."
                                          >
                                          > Mary Jo
                                          >
                                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                          > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                          > > Yes, I choose that path, but for a purpose. I apologize for my
                                          > > outburst and for being insulting. I was angered because you
                                          > > (basically) stated that I'm not producing anything objective.
                                          That
                                          > is
                                          > > correct, but neither are you, as opinions are subjective.
                                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > Silly Jedi mind tricks. You are your own worst enemy. You turn
                                          > your
                                          > > > mind against yourself. If I contradict myself, I'm still more
                                          > than
                                          > > a
                                          > > > pig. Pigs can't contradict themselves. My opinion is
                                          subjective.
                                          > > What
                                          > > > is objective is that a pig exists, you exist, and I exist. What
                                          > is
                                          > > > subjective is our view of relative value of each in the cosmos.
                                          > > > Perhaps pigshit has more value than my individual life. In your
                                          > > > world, you may be right. In my world I'm worth more than pigs
                                          or
                                          > > > pigshit.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Mary
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                          > > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                          > > > > Oh really? So now you're contradicting yourself... In fact,
                                          > > you're
                                          > > > > contradicting existentialism. You assume your own
                                          > > > perspective/opinion
                                          > > > > to be objective, yet you imply that perception and opinion
                                          are
                                          > > > > subjective simply by the fact that you claim to be an
                                          > > > existentialist.
                                          > > > > Odd, uncanny and foul you are, proving yourself less than a
                                          > > pig...
                                          > > > > And I didn't even have to exert the effort to argue your
                                          > > > inferiority.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo"
                                          > <alcyon11@y...>
                                          > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > Whatever the "perspective", go for it. Be the pig. That's
                                          > > making
                                          > > > > > wonderful use of the "gift" of reason. Be the pig and enjoy
                                          > > your
                                          > > > > > truffles. Objectively or subjectively, be the pig. Who is
                                          > > > stopping
                                          > > > > > you? Absurdity is so passe. The world needs original
                                          > thinking,
                                          > > > not
                                          > > > > > this silly quaint mental exercise which reveals nothing
                                          > > objective
                                          > > > > to
                                          > > > > > anyone. What's objective is that pigs exist. What's
                                          > subjective
                                          > > is
                                          > > > > > that you think being a pig is superior. Your choice.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Mary
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "foreignngierof"
                                          > > > > > <foreignngierof@y...> wrote:
                                          > > > > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                          > > > demonstrate
                                          > > > > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what
                                          we
                                          > > > are...
                                          > > > > I
                                          > > > > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                          > > > > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                          > > > the "best
                                          > > > > > and
                                          > > > > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                          > subjective
                                          > > > > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to
                                          > be
                                          > > a
                                          > > > > pig
                                          > > > > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                          > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home
                                          > > <yeoman@v...>
                                          > > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > > foreignngierof,
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > But then you are making the very same mistake. You are
                                          > > > > > > > applying your own concept of what it might be to be a
                                          pig
                                          > > > > > > > and then concluding that this might be better than being
                                          > > > > > > > human. Why not just accept what we are, since we do not
                                          > > > > > > > have a role in determining our condition, one way or
                                          > > > > > > > t'other.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > eduard
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                          > > > > > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 8:42 PM
                                          > > > > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > Considering the state of being human to be "the best
                                          and
                                          > > > > > > > highest
                                          > > > > > > > > expression that any 'thing' can be" is mere
                                          foolishness.
                                          > > > > > > > Humanity is
                                          > > > > > > > > a body of consciousness induced suffering...
                                          > > > > > > > Ignorance--and in our
                                          > > > > > > > > case stupidity, etc...--is bliss. Thus, it is better
                                          to
                                          > be
                                          > > > > > > > a pig than
                                          > > > > > > > > a human.
                                        • eduard at home
                                          foreignngierof, I am not sure what a Montaignist is. In any case, I see pigs, mushrooms, humans, etc., as being life forms that fit within their little
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                            foreignngierof,

                                            I am not sure what a "Montaignist" is. In any case, I see
                                            pigs, mushrooms, humans, etc., as being life forms that fit
                                            within their little nitch. In other words, if you had a pen
                                            full of mud, then Mother Nature would eventually evolve a
                                            pig like thing to fill it. But then pigs are dirty, can
                                            carry a lot of diseases, and will eat human flesh if given
                                            the opportunity. As you can guess, I don't like pigs. But
                                            then they also have their place in the universe.

                                            eduard

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@...>
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:46 PM
                                            Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                                            > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                            demonstrate
                                            > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we
                                            are... I
                                            > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                            > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                            the "best and
                                            > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                            subjective
                                            > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to
                                            be a pig
                                            > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                          • foreignngierof
                                            Humans carry more diseases and parasites than all animals on our planet combined. We are depleting natural resources at an alarming rate--one that qualifies us
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                              Humans carry more diseases and parasites than all animals on our
                                              planet combined. We are depleting natural resources at an alarming
                                              rate--one that qualifies us as the most voracious parasite on the
                                              planet. As is, if our existence continues, surely one of two things
                                              (perhaps both) will occur:
                                              a) all natural resources will be completely depleted, making our
                                              world uninhabitable to about anything but cockroaches (and they will
                                              exist only until we've consumed all food products)
                                              b) Our technology will advance to allow us to exist without depleting
                                              natural resources, and humanity will thrive. I hold that this will
                                              only occur when the depletion starts to hit home (gas becomes too
                                              expensive for purchase, food becomes scarce) by then, it will be too
                                              late, leading us inevitably in the direction of thing A.
                                              Pigs, on the other hand, do not deplete natural resources, and since
                                              they're not at the top of the food chain, when they become too
                                              numerous and do begin consuming too much, nature automatically thins
                                              out their population with natural mechanisms designed for this
                                              purpose. Humanity has learned to a great extent, through
                                              civilization, how to defy certain natural mechanisms. We are, again,
                                              acting like parasites.

                                              Which is more noble?
                                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                              > foreignngierof,
                                              >
                                              > I am not sure what a "Montaignist" is. In any case, I see
                                              > pigs, mushrooms, humans, etc., as being life forms that fit
                                              > within their little nitch. In other words, if you had a pen
                                              > full of mud, then Mother Nature would eventually evolve a
                                              > pig like thing to fill it. But then pigs are dirty, can
                                              > carry a lot of diseases, and will eat human flesh if given
                                              > the opportunity. As you can guess, I don't like pigs. But
                                              > then they also have their place in the universe.
                                              >
                                              > eduard
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:46 PM
                                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                              > demonstrate
                                              > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept what we
                                              > are... I
                                              > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however flawed)
                                              > > I'm only saying that being human isn't objectively
                                              > the "best and
                                              > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                              > subjective
                                              > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better to
                                              > be a pig
                                              > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                            • eduard at home
                                              foreignngierof [do you have a first name??], All living things will over produce, if given the opportunity. Pigs and humans are no different. It is just that
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                foreignngierof [do you have a first name??],

                                                All living things will over produce, if given the
                                                opportunity. Pigs and humans are no different. It is just
                                                that humans can do it better. But humans are limited, in
                                                being earth bound, so eventually they will be reduced in
                                                population by themselves or be forced to do so by Mother
                                                Nature.

                                                I would serious doubt that we have more diseases and
                                                parasites. We only think we do.

                                                eduard


                                                > Humans carry more diseases and parasites than all animals
                                                on our
                                                > planet combined. We are depleting natural resources at an
                                                alarming
                                                > rate--one that qualifies us as the most voracious parasite
                                                on the
                                                > planet. As is, if our existence continues, surely one of
                                                two things
                                                > (perhaps both) will occur:
                                                > a) all natural resources will be completely depleted,
                                                making our
                                                > world uninhabitable to about anything but cockroaches (and
                                                they will
                                                > exist only until we've consumed all food products)
                                                > b) Our technology will advance to allow us to exist
                                                without depleting
                                                > natural resources, and humanity will thrive. I hold that
                                                this will
                                                > only occur when the depletion starts to hit home (gas
                                                becomes too
                                                > expensive for purchase, food becomes scarce) by then, it
                                                will be too
                                                > late, leading us inevitably in the direction of thing A.
                                                > Pigs, on the other hand, do not deplete natural
                                                resources, and since
                                                > they're not at the top of the food chain, when they become
                                                too
                                                > numerous and do begin consuming too much, nature
                                                automatically thins
                                                > out their population with natural mechanisms designed for
                                                this
                                                > purpose. Humanity has learned to a great extent, through
                                                > civilization, how to defy certain natural mechanisms. We
                                                are, again,
                                                > acting like parasites.
                                                >
                                                > Which is more noble?
                                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home
                                                <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                                > > foreignngierof,
                                                > >
                                                > > I am not sure what a "Montaignist" is. In any case, I
                                                see
                                                > > pigs, mushrooms, humans, etc., as being life forms that
                                                fit
                                                > > within their little nitch. In other words, if you had a
                                                pen
                                                > > full of mud, then Mother Nature would eventually evolve
                                                a
                                                > > pig like thing to fill it. But then pigs are dirty, can
                                                > > carry a lot of diseases, and will eat human flesh if
                                                given
                                                > > the opportunity. As you can guess, I don't like pigs.
                                                But
                                                > > then they also have their place in the universe.
                                                > >
                                                > > eduard
                                                > >
                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:46 PM
                                                > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                                > > demonstrate
                                                > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept
                                                what we
                                                > > are... I
                                                > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however
                                                flawed)
                                                > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't
                                                objectively
                                                > > the "best and
                                                > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                                > > subjective
                                                > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better
                                                to
                                                > > be a pig
                                                > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • Lorna Landry
                                                I don t know Mary jo. that sun can get very bright - humans not nearly as bright (for the most part). Mary Jo Malo wrote: It still pisses
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                  I don't know Mary jo. that sun can get very bright - humans not nearly as bright (for the most part).





                                                  Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote: It still pisses me off. Being human is the best and highest
                                                  expression that any "thing" can be. It's dignity is brighter than the
                                                  sun.

                                                  Mary

                                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home wrote:
                                                  > But death always wins out. Love only provides a distraction
                                                  > whilst we go through the process of dying.
                                                  >
                                                  > I would grant that people and love "should" exist longer
                                                  > than rock ... but the reality is that they don't.
                                                  >
                                                  > People are like mushrooms; they rise out of the ground,
                                                  > mature, shoot off their spores and then die. It is a
                                                  > natural process that we all go through. But what we seem to
                                                  > forget [because we can see beyond ourselves] is that we are
                                                  > the process.
                                                  >
                                                  > eduard
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "Mary Jo Malo"
                                                  > To:
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:34 PM
                                                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > > Thanks, eduard. Obviously I am biased towards the author
                                                  > and usually
                                                  > > understand his images. Notice the reference to eyes and
                                                  > > blindness. "...too deep to reach the light of common
                                                  > sense..."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Despite the current predictability and inevitability of
                                                  > death, Death
                                                  > > is the failure of love, because Love in this world fails
                                                  > to
                                                  > > perpetuate itself. It can't overcome this illusion of
                                                  > reality and
                                                  > > continue to exist beyond its present bondage. People and
                                                  > love should
                                                  > > exist longer than rock. If the concepts of "identity" and
                                                  > "love"
                                                  > > can't be defined unambiguously, something is surely amiss.
                                                  > It's
                                                  > > unacceptable.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Mary



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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • foreignngierof
                                                  I m not saying that we are over producing. We are over consuming, which inevitably leads to the depletion of ALL usable natural resources on our planet--i.e.
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                    I'm not saying that we are over producing. We are over consuming,
                                                    which inevitably leads to the depletion of ALL usable natural
                                                    resources on our planet--i.e. we are the only specious that does it
                                                    and can (for the short-term) get by with it. And pigs and humans are
                                                    different... They are separated by a chasm, that being the chasm
                                                    between consciousness and unconsciousness. I argue that the later is
                                                    less afflicting.
                                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                                    > foreignngierof [do you have a first name??],
                                                    >
                                                    > All living things will over produce, if given the
                                                    > opportunity. Pigs and humans are no different. It is just
                                                    > that humans can do it better. But humans are limited, in
                                                    > being earth bound, so eventually they will be reduced in
                                                    > population by themselves or be forced to do so by Mother
                                                    > Nature.
                                                    >
                                                    > I would serious doubt that we have more diseases and
                                                    > parasites. We only think we do.
                                                    >
                                                    > eduard
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Humans carry more diseases and parasites than all animals
                                                    > on our
                                                    > > planet combined. We are depleting natural resources at an
                                                    > alarming
                                                    > > rate--one that qualifies us as the most voracious parasite
                                                    > on the
                                                    > > planet. As is, if our existence continues, surely one of
                                                    > two things
                                                    > > (perhaps both) will occur:
                                                    > > a) all natural resources will be completely depleted,
                                                    > making our
                                                    > > world uninhabitable to about anything but cockroaches (and
                                                    > they will
                                                    > > exist only until we've consumed all food products)
                                                    > > b) Our technology will advance to allow us to exist
                                                    > without depleting
                                                    > > natural resources, and humanity will thrive. I hold that
                                                    > this will
                                                    > > only occur when the depletion starts to hit home (gas
                                                    > becomes too
                                                    > > expensive for purchase, food becomes scarce) by then, it
                                                    > will be too
                                                    > > late, leading us inevitably in the direction of thing A.
                                                    > > Pigs, on the other hand, do not deplete natural
                                                    > resources, and since
                                                    > > they're not at the top of the food chain, when they become
                                                    > too
                                                    > > numerous and do begin consuming too much, nature
                                                    > automatically thins
                                                    > > out their population with natural mechanisms designed for
                                                    > this
                                                    > > purpose. Humanity has learned to a great extent, through
                                                    > > civilization, how to defy certain natural mechanisms. We
                                                    > are, again,
                                                    > > acting like parasites.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Which is more noble?
                                                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home
                                                    > <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                                    > > > foreignngierof,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I am not sure what a "Montaignist" is. In any case, I
                                                    > see
                                                    > > > pigs, mushrooms, humans, etc., as being life forms that
                                                    > fit
                                                    > > > within their little nitch. In other words, if you had a
                                                    > pen
                                                    > > > full of mud, then Mother Nature would eventually evolve
                                                    > a
                                                    > > > pig like thing to fill it. But then pigs are dirty, can
                                                    > > > carry a lot of diseases, and will eat human flesh if
                                                    > given
                                                    > > > the opportunity. As you can guess, I don't like pigs.
                                                    > But
                                                    > > > then they also have their place in the universe.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > eduard
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > > From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@y...>
                                                    > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:46 PM
                                                    > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > > No, I'm using my own alleged "gift" of reason to
                                                    > > > demonstrate
                                                    > > > > that a pig's lack thereof is superior. I do accept
                                                    > what we
                                                    > > > are... I
                                                    > > > > am reasoning, after all (in some sense, however
                                                    > flawed)
                                                    > > > > I'm only saying that being human isn't
                                                    > objectively
                                                    > > > the "best and
                                                    > > > > highest" expression, and that I (one of a varying,
                                                    > > > subjective
                                                    > > > > consciousness) happen to fancy that it would be better
                                                    > to
                                                    > > > be a pig
                                                    > > > > than a man. This is a "Montaignist" perspective.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                                                    > Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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                                                    > Canon or Lexmark
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                                                    > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                                                    > >
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                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                  • eduard at home
                                                    I would argue that consciousness is over-rated. In any case, how do we know that the pig has no consciousness?? Just because they don t have a means of
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                      I would argue that consciousness is over-rated. In any
                                                      case, how do we know that the pig has no consciousness??
                                                      Just because they don't have a means of expressing what they
                                                      think, doesn't mean that they are lacking in this area.

                                                      Existentialism is all about your* existence and it really
                                                      isn't fruitful to concern oneself about someone else's
                                                      existence.

                                                      eduard

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "foreignngierof" <foreignngierof@...>
                                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 5:48 PM
                                                      Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                                                      > I'm not saying that we are over producing. We are over
                                                      consuming,
                                                      > which inevitably leads to the depletion of ALL usable
                                                      natural
                                                      > resources on our planet--i.e. we are the only specious
                                                      that does it
                                                      > and can (for the short-term) get by with it. And pigs and
                                                      humans are
                                                      > different... They are separated by a chasm, that being the
                                                      chasm
                                                      > between consciousness and unconsciousness. I argue that
                                                      the later is
                                                      > less afflicting.
                                                    • eduard at home
                                                      I would have to get my lightmeter out. I suspect you are right. In any case, a person is only bright because of reflection. So you do a lot better wearing
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                        I would have to get my lightmeter out. I suspect you are
                                                        right. In any case, a person is only "bright" because of
                                                        reflection. So you do a lot better wearing white than
                                                        black.

                                                        eduard

                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 4:18 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                                                        > I don't know Mary jo. that sun can get very bright -
                                                        humans not nearly as bright (for the most part).
                                                      • Lorna Landry
                                                        Eduard, I would argue here that your own, particular existence is very much wrapped up in the existence of others - no man (or woman) is an island, after all.
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                                          Eduard,

                                                          I would argue here that your own, particular existence is very much wrapped up in the existence of others - no man (or woman) is an island, after all. We are not merely conscious, we are conscious of nothing other than that great big world before us, and other people (and swine) are a part of that.

                                                          Lorna



                                                          eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote: I would argue that consciousness is over-rated. In any
                                                          case, how do we know that the pig has no consciousness??
                                                          Just because they don't have a means of expressing what they
                                                          think, doesn't mean that they are lacking in this area.

                                                          Existentialism is all about your* existence and it really
                                                          isn't fruitful to concern oneself about someone else's
                                                          existence.

                                                          eduard

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "foreignngierof"
                                                          To:
                                                          Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 5:48 PM
                                                          Subject: [existlist] Re: The Failure of "Love"


                                                          > I'm not saying that we are over producing. We are over
                                                          consuming,
                                                          > which inevitably leads to the depletion of ALL usable
                                                          natural
                                                          > resources on our planet--i.e. we are the only specious
                                                          that does it
                                                          > and can (for the short-term) get by with it. And pigs and
                                                          humans are
                                                          > different... They are separated by a chasm, that being the
                                                          chasm
                                                          > between consciousness and unconsciousness. I argue that
                                                          the later is
                                                          > less afflicting.



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                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • eduard at home
                                                          Lorna, I agree with what you are saying. I just think that we waste too much time in trying to figure out what the purpose of others happens to be, rather
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                            Lorna,

                                                            I agree with what you are saying. I just think that we waste too much time in trying to figure out what the purpose of others happens to be, rather than concentrating on our own purpose. So after we fix up someone else, do they turn around and say, "Well, it's your turn now". No sirree sister ... they just go off and leave you there to stew in your own anguish.

                                                            I say ... down with all this "other" stuff. First cast out that philosophical log in your own mind ... and then apply the oxygen to that person beside you. Is your seatbelt fastened ...

                                                            eduard ... who did not get enough sleep last night

                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:48 AM
                                                            Subject: [existlist]Conscious & Others


                                                            > Eduard,
                                                            >
                                                            > I would argue here that your own, particular existence is very much wrapped up in the existence of others - no man (or woman) is an island, after all. We are not merely conscious, we are conscious of nothing other than that great big world before us, and other people (and swine) are a part of that.
                                                            >
                                                            > Lorna


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