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From Perfection to Freedom

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  • Mary Jo Malo
    I d place relationships with others at the top of the list - improving existing relationships, cultivating new friendships (if desired). Learning to think
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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      I'd place relationships with others at the top of the list -
      improving existing relationships, cultivating new friendships (if
      desired). Learning to think clearly and improving communication
      skills are desirable. In the absence of a god to please with our
      perfection, we can learn to please ourselves and others, with
      discretion. These things are, of course, a choice. The art of self-
      improvement, indeed the art self creating, is an optional path. The
      motive might be to simply enjoy life in a manner which is not
      threatening to others but liberated from social and intellectual
      pressures. Freedom is a better goal I think. Freedom from being
      perfect. Free to be human, however you define it. Rambling, I know...

      Jo


      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
      > Yes ... an interesting article. Some good words I can use.
      >
      > I have been doing some more thinking on this subject. It
      > would seem to me that perfection is in regard to those areas
      > which we can improve ...
      >
      > our routine
      > physical appearance
      > knowledge [cosmology, history, the classics of literature]
      > typical behaviors
      > personality traits
      >
      > But that still leaves the question of ... why. What is the
      > objective of our perfection. In a religious context, this
      > would be to reach the God-head. But in the absence of God,
      > what is the motive??
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:11 PM
      > Subject: [existlist] Striving for Perfection
      >
      >
      > > eduard,
      > >
      > > Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which
      > seems to be
      > > an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:
      > >
      > > "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply
      > affect our
      > > behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you
      > are highly
      > > self-aware you will know yourself better than less
      > self-aware people,
      > > engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e.,
      > monitoring and
      > > modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely,
      > behave more
      > > consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social
      > pressure,
      > > self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react
      > more strongly
      > > to social rejection."
      > >
      > > <http://sci-con.org/articles/20021201.html>
      > >
      > > Jo
    • eduard at home
      Jo, I think the key phrase is ... to please ourselves . I was looking for the motive that fuels our striving for perfection. What I was getting hooked up on
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 1, 2003
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        Jo,

        I think the key phrase is ... "to please ourselves".

        I was looking for the motive that fuels our striving for
        perfection. What I was getting hooked up on was the thought
        that this had to be somehow related to the result on others.
        If I act with perfection then it is the improvement that I
        cause in society. Although this is laudable, it is hard to
        make concrete. I occurs to me that everything that we do is
        for self-satisfaction. The same would occur in the presence
        of a fanaticized god. We do act because of the neural
        satisfaction to be obtained. That seems obvious, yet is
        hard to identify.

        So although the list might contain things like, "improving
        relationships", the words should be in relation to the self.

        eduard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:06 AM
        Subject: [existlist] From Perfection to Freedom


        > I'd place relationships with others at the top of the
        list -
        > improving existing relationships, cultivating new
        friendships (if
        > desired). Learning to think clearly and improving
        communication
        > skills are desirable. In the absence of a god to please
        with our
        > perfection, we can learn to please ourselves and others,
        with
        > discretion. These things are, of course, a choice. The art
        of self-
        > improvement, indeed the art self creating, is an optional
        path. The
        > motive might be to simply enjoy life in a manner which is
        not
        > threatening to others but liberated from social and
        intellectual
        > pressures. Freedom is a better goal I think. Freedom from
        being
        > perfect. Free to be human, however you define it.
        Rambling, I know...
        >
        > Jo
      • Lorna Landry
        Eduard, Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for perfection outside the desire to be
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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          Eduard,

          Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for perfection outside the desire to be better, more than what we are? Perfection, and the futile attempt to attain it, is an end itself for us humans. Curious how we all strive to attain that which is ultimately unattainable. Cruel world!

          Lorna



          eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote: hi DrQ,

          Yes, we are all doing the same things. But it's not
          striving for perfection as such which is the problem.
          Rather, it is to identify the purpose of that perfection.
          What do we see as the end result of our existence which we
          would like to see?? Everyone strives for perfection, but
          what is the motive??

          Sorry, I am not asking this correctly ... or at least I
          don't think so. Perhaps this is one of those issues that
          depends greatly upon first formulating the question ....

          eduard

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "drQ"
          To:
          Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


          > You mean all of you out there are striving for perfection
          like me!? and I thought it was a problem of only Me and that
          it's a sort of self-defeating behavior. Isn't it that not?
          Kind of being harsh on oneself.
          > As to end of this striving!? It's endless or rather ends
          with one's end. Maybe hastens one's end.....



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        • Lorna Landry
          the object of our perfection can be none other than ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary, fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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            the object of our perfection can be none other than ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary, fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.



            eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote:
            But that still leaves the question of ... why. What is the
            objective of our perfection. In a religious context, this
            would be to reach the God-head. But in the absence of God,
            what is the motive??

            eduard

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mary Jo Malo"
            To:
            Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:11 PM
            Subject: [existlist] Striving for Perfection


            > eduard,
            >
            > Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which
            seems to be
            > an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:
            >
            > "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply
            affect our
            > behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you
            are highly
            > self-aware you will know yourself better than less
            self-aware people,
            > engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e.,
            monitoring and
            > modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely,
            behave more
            > consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social
            pressure,
            > self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react
            more strongly
            > to social rejection."
            >
            >
            >
            > Jo



            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





            ---------------------------------
            Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eduard at home
            Lorna, Wouldn t that be the idea behind Existentialist absurdity?? eduard ... From: Lorna Landry To:
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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              Lorna,

              Wouldn't that be the idea behind Existentialist absurdity??

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:58 AM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


              > Eduard,
              >
              > Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for
              all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for
              perfection outside the desire to be better, more than what
              we are? Perfection, and the futile attempt to attain it, is
              an end itself for us humans. Curious how we all strive to
              attain that which is ultimately unattainable. Cruel world!
              >
              > Lorna
            • eduard at home
              I think the object of our striving for perfection is the neurological/emotional high we get from the sensation of achieving some perfection. It would replace
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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                I think the object of our striving for perfection is the
                neurological/emotional high we get from the sensation of
                achieving some perfection. It would replace that sort of
                God-high that we might envisage as the end result of some
                spiritual quest.

                I was thinking that all of this God stuff is actually a
                device by which humans have found they can play on their
                emotions. I remember seeing one of those evangelistic
                programs on TV where the audience is enthralled with the
                moment and rocking back and forth with their hands in the
                air. All that they are doing is producing an emotional
                transient. Like a crack demon anticipating the "rush".

                So if they can do it, then why not the Existentialist in
                savouring the thought of the future perfection. I certainly
                think of it when considering myself with perhaps 20 less
                pounds. Perhaps flexing my muscles on Wreck Beach.

                eduard

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 11:00 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Striving for Perfection


                >
                > the object of our perfection can be none other than
                ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary,
                fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.
                >
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