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the end of striving

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  • eduard at home
    The focus of Existentialism is one s personal subjective existence. One could then deduce that one s action should be towards perfection of that existence.
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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      The focus of Existentialism is one's personal subjective
      existence. One could then deduce that one's action should
      be towards perfection of that existence. But then we run up
      against the ultimate question. To what end does one seek
      perfection?? How would you know that you are at the end of
      your striving??

      eduard
    • drQ
      You mean all of you out there are striving for perfection like me!? and I thought it was a problem of only Me and that it s a sort of self-defeating behavior.
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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        You mean all of you out there are striving for perfection like me!? and I thought it was a problem of only Me and that it's a sort of self-defeating behavior. Isn't it that not? Kind of being harsh on oneself.
        As to end of this striving!? It's endless or rather ends with one's end. Maybe hastens one's end.....



        One has fear in front of a goat, in back of a mule, and on every side of a fool.
        --Edgar Watson Howe

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: eduard at home
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 7:20 PM
        Subject: [existlist] the end of striving


        The focus of Existentialism is one's personal subjective
        existence. One could then deduce that one's action should
        be towards perfection of that existence. But then we run up
        against the ultimate question. To what end does one seek
        perfection?? How would you know that you are at the end of
        your striving??

        eduard



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      • Mary Jo Malo
        These are very interesting questions, straight forward and relevant. My first question is how do you define perfection? Though some would deduce that
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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          These are very interesting questions, straight forward and relevant. My first question is how do you define perfection? Though some would deduce that perfection is a goal of existence, not everyone would. Your striving for perfection may make you feel better about yourself and possibly improve the lives of your family, friends and society. One doesn't need to worry about whether they've arrived at perfection; because there are always people to tell you haven't arrived, according to their ideas about perfection. Ultimately, if you believe in no afterlife, your striving ends when you die. If you believe you get do-overs, striving for perfection may take several lifetimes. Again I ask, how do you define perfection?

          Mary Jo

          eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote:
          The focus of Existentialism is one's personal subjective
          existence. One could then deduce that one's action should
          be towards perfection of that existence. But then we run up
          against the ultimate question. To what end does one seek
          perfection?? How would you know that you are at the end of
          your striving??

          eduard



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        • eduard at home
          hi DrQ, Yes, we are all doing the same things. But it s not striving for perfection as such which is the problem. Rather, it is to identify the purpose of
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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            hi DrQ,

            Yes, we are all doing the same things. But it's not
            striving for perfection as such which is the problem.
            Rather, it is to identify the purpose of that perfection.
            What do we see as the end result of our existence which we
            would like to see?? Everyone strives for perfection, but
            what is the motive??

            Sorry, I am not asking this correctly ... or at least I
            don't think so. Perhaps this is one of those issues that
            depends greatly upon first formulating the question ....

            eduard

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "drQ" <dr-q@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:20 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


            > You mean all of you out there are striving for perfection
            like me!? and I thought it was a problem of only Me and that
            it's a sort of self-defeating behavior. Isn't it that not?
            Kind of being harsh on oneself.
            > As to end of this striving!? It's endless or rather ends
            with one's end. Maybe hastens one's end.....
          • eduard at home
            Jo, That s a good question and perhaps its answer is halfway to the answer I am looking for. Firstly, I think that the perfection would only be of yourself.
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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              Jo,

              That's a good question and perhaps its answer is halfway to
              the answer I am looking for.

              Firstly, I think that the perfection would only be of
              yourself. Afterall, it is your existence. Improving the
              lives of family, friends and society would be the objective
              for the use of that perfection.

              I don't believe in do-overs. I think that one should look
              towards achieving "perfection" in this life...

              Of course, all that goes around your question of defining
              "perfection". I would think that it is a combination of
              things like a high level of knowledge [e.g. cosmology,
              classic literature], health, personal environment, etc... I
              would suppose that "perfection" would be defined differently
              by different people.

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


              > These are very interesting questions, straight forward and
              relevant. My first question is how do you define perfection?
              Though some would deduce that perfection is a goal of
              existence, not everyone would. Your striving for perfection
              may make you feel better about yourself and possibly improve
              the lives of your family, friends and society. One doesn't
              need to worry about whether they've arrived at perfection;
              because there are always people to tell you haven't arrived,
              according to their ideas about perfection. Ultimately, if
              you believe in no afterlife, your striving ends when you
              die. If you believe you get do-overs, striving for
              perfection may take several lifetimes. Again I ask, how do
              you define perfection?
              >
              > Mary Jo
            • Mary Jo Malo
              eduard, Here s an article that s related to self-reflection which seems to be an attribute of striving for perfection . An excerpt: Differences in levels of
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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                eduard,

                Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which seems to be
                an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:

                "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply affect our
                behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you are highly
                self-aware you will know yourself better than less self-aware people,
                engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e., monitoring and
                modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely, behave more
                consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social pressure,
                self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react more strongly
                to social rejection."

                <http://sci-con.org/articles/20021201.html>

                Jo

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                > Jo,
                >
                > That's a good question and perhaps its answer is halfway to
                > the answer I am looking for.
                >
                > Firstly, I think that the perfection would only be of
                > yourself. Afterall, it is your existence. Improving the
                > lives of family, friends and society would be the objective
                > for the use of that perfection.
                >
                > I don't believe in do-overs. I think that one should look
                > towards achieving "perfection" in this life...
                >
                > Of course, all that goes around your question of defining
                > "perfection". I would think that it is a combination of
                > things like a high level of knowledge [e.g. cosmology,
                > classic literature], health, personal environment, etc... I
                > would suppose that "perfection" would be defined differently
                > by different people.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:23 PM
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving
                >
                >
                > > These are very interesting questions, straight forward and
                > relevant. My first question is how do you define perfection?
                > Though some would deduce that perfection is a goal of
                > existence, not everyone would. Your striving for perfection
                > may make you feel better about yourself and possibly improve
                > the lives of your family, friends and society. One doesn't
                > need to worry about whether they've arrived at perfection;
                > because there are always people to tell you haven't arrived,
                > according to their ideas about perfection. Ultimately, if
                > you believe in no afterlife, your striving ends when you
                > die. If you believe you get do-overs, striving for
                > perfection may take several lifetimes. Again I ask, how do
                > you define perfection?
                > >
                > > Mary Jo
              • eduard at home
                Yes ... an interesting article. Some good words I can use. I have been doing some more thinking on this subject. It would seem to me that perfection is in
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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                  Yes ... an interesting article. Some good words I can use.

                  I have been doing some more thinking on this subject. It
                  would seem to me that perfection is in regard to those areas
                  which we can improve ...

                  our routine
                  physical appearance
                  knowledge [cosmology, history, the classics of literature]
                  typical behaviors
                  personality traits

                  But that still leaves the question of ... why. What is the
                  objective of our perfection. In a religious context, this
                  would be to reach the God-head. But in the absence of God,
                  what is the motive??

                  eduard

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:11 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Striving for Perfection


                  > eduard,
                  >
                  > Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which
                  seems to be
                  > an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:
                  >
                  > "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply
                  affect our
                  > behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you
                  are highly
                  > self-aware you will know yourself better than less
                  self-aware people,
                  > engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e.,
                  monitoring and
                  > modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely,
                  behave more
                  > consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social
                  pressure,
                  > self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react
                  more strongly
                  > to social rejection."
                  >
                  > <http://sci-con.org/articles/20021201.html>
                  >
                  > Jo
                • Mary Jo Malo
                  I d place relationships with others at the top of the list - improving existing relationships, cultivating new friendships (if desired). Learning to think
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 30, 2003
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                    I'd place relationships with others at the top of the list -
                    improving existing relationships, cultivating new friendships (if
                    desired). Learning to think clearly and improving communication
                    skills are desirable. In the absence of a god to please with our
                    perfection, we can learn to please ourselves and others, with
                    discretion. These things are, of course, a choice. The art of self-
                    improvement, indeed the art self creating, is an optional path. The
                    motive might be to simply enjoy life in a manner which is not
                    threatening to others but liberated from social and intellectual
                    pressures. Freedom is a better goal I think. Freedom from being
                    perfect. Free to be human, however you define it. Rambling, I know...

                    Jo


                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                    > Yes ... an interesting article. Some good words I can use.
                    >
                    > I have been doing some more thinking on this subject. It
                    > would seem to me that perfection is in regard to those areas
                    > which we can improve ...
                    >
                    > our routine
                    > physical appearance
                    > knowledge [cosmology, history, the classics of literature]
                    > typical behaviors
                    > personality traits
                    >
                    > But that still leaves the question of ... why. What is the
                    > objective of our perfection. In a religious context, this
                    > would be to reach the God-head. But in the absence of God,
                    > what is the motive??
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:11 PM
                    > Subject: [existlist] Striving for Perfection
                    >
                    >
                    > > eduard,
                    > >
                    > > Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which
                    > seems to be
                    > > an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:
                    > >
                    > > "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply
                    > affect our
                    > > behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you
                    > are highly
                    > > self-aware you will know yourself better than less
                    > self-aware people,
                    > > engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e.,
                    > monitoring and
                    > > modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely,
                    > behave more
                    > > consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social
                    > pressure,
                    > > self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react
                    > more strongly
                    > > to social rejection."
                    > >
                    > > <http://sci-con.org/articles/20021201.html>
                    > >
                    > > Jo
                  • eduard at home
                    Jo, I think the key phrase is ... to please ourselves . I was looking for the motive that fuels our striving for perfection. What I was getting hooked up on
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 1, 2003
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                      Jo,

                      I think the key phrase is ... "to please ourselves".

                      I was looking for the motive that fuels our striving for
                      perfection. What I was getting hooked up on was the thought
                      that this had to be somehow related to the result on others.
                      If I act with perfection then it is the improvement that I
                      cause in society. Although this is laudable, it is hard to
                      make concrete. I occurs to me that everything that we do is
                      for self-satisfaction. The same would occur in the presence
                      of a fanaticized god. We do act because of the neural
                      satisfaction to be obtained. That seems obvious, yet is
                      hard to identify.

                      So although the list might contain things like, "improving
                      relationships", the words should be in relation to the self.

                      eduard

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:06 AM
                      Subject: [existlist] From Perfection to Freedom


                      > I'd place relationships with others at the top of the
                      list -
                      > improving existing relationships, cultivating new
                      friendships (if
                      > desired). Learning to think clearly and improving
                      communication
                      > skills are desirable. In the absence of a god to please
                      with our
                      > perfection, we can learn to please ourselves and others,
                      with
                      > discretion. These things are, of course, a choice. The art
                      of self-
                      > improvement, indeed the art self creating, is an optional
                      path. The
                      > motive might be to simply enjoy life in a manner which is
                      not
                      > threatening to others but liberated from social and
                      intellectual
                      > pressures. Freedom is a better goal I think. Freedom from
                      being
                      > perfect. Free to be human, however you define it.
                      Rambling, I know...
                      >
                      > Jo
                    • Lorna Landry
                      Eduard, Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for perfection outside the desire to be
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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                        Eduard,

                        Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for perfection outside the desire to be better, more than what we are? Perfection, and the futile attempt to attain it, is an end itself for us humans. Curious how we all strive to attain that which is ultimately unattainable. Cruel world!

                        Lorna



                        eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote: hi DrQ,

                        Yes, we are all doing the same things. But it's not
                        striving for perfection as such which is the problem.
                        Rather, it is to identify the purpose of that perfection.
                        What do we see as the end result of our existence which we
                        would like to see?? Everyone strives for perfection, but
                        what is the motive??

                        Sorry, I am not asking this correctly ... or at least I
                        don't think so. Perhaps this is one of those issues that
                        depends greatly upon first formulating the question ....

                        eduard

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "drQ"
                        To:
                        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:20 PM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


                        > You mean all of you out there are striving for perfection
                        like me!? and I thought it was a problem of only Me and that
                        it's a sort of self-defeating behavior. Isn't it that not?
                        Kind of being harsh on oneself.
                        > As to end of this striving!? It's endless or rather ends
                        with one's end. Maybe hastens one's end.....



                        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

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                        ---------------------------------
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lorna Landry
                        the object of our perfection can be none other than ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary, fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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                          the object of our perfection can be none other than ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary, fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.



                          eduard at home <yeoman@...> wrote:
                          But that still leaves the question of ... why. What is the
                          objective of our perfection. In a religious context, this
                          would be to reach the God-head. But in the absence of God,
                          what is the motive??

                          eduard

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Mary Jo Malo"
                          To:
                          Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:11 PM
                          Subject: [existlist] Striving for Perfection


                          > eduard,
                          >
                          > Here's an article that's related to self-reflection which
                          seems to be
                          > an attribute of striving for "perfection". An excerpt:
                          >
                          > "Differences in levels of self-focused attention deeply
                          affect our
                          > behavior. For example, past studies suggest that if you
                          are highly
                          > self-aware you will know yourself better than less
                          self-aware people,
                          > engage more effectively in self-regulation (i.e.,
                          monitoring and
                          > modifying your behavior), feel emotions more intensely,
                          behave more
                          > consistently with your attitudes, conform less to social
                          pressure,
                          > self-disclose more in intimate relationships, and react
                          more strongly
                          > to social rejection."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Jo



                          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

                          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                          existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                          ---------------------------------
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eduard at home
                          Lorna, Wouldn t that be the idea behind Existentialist absurdity?? eduard ... From: Lorna Landry To:
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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                            Lorna,

                            Wouldn't that be the idea behind Existentialist absurdity??

                            eduard

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:58 AM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] the end of striving


                            > Eduard,
                            >
                            > Can perfection (although in my opinion unattainable for
                            all of us) be an end in itself? Do we need a motive for
                            perfection outside the desire to be better, more than what
                            we are? Perfection, and the futile attempt to attain it, is
                            an end itself for us humans. Curious how we all strive to
                            attain that which is ultimately unattainable. Cruel world!
                            >
                            > Lorna
                          • eduard at home
                            I think the object of our striving for perfection is the neurological/emotional high we get from the sensation of achieving some perfection. It would replace
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 2, 2003
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                              I think the object of our striving for perfection is the
                              neurological/emotional high we get from the sensation of
                              achieving some perfection. It would replace that sort of
                              God-high that we might envisage as the end result of some
                              spiritual quest.

                              I was thinking that all of this God stuff is actually a
                              device by which humans have found they can play on their
                              emotions. I remember seeing one of those evangelistic
                              programs on TV where the audience is enthralled with the
                              moment and rocking back and forth with their hands in the
                              air. All that they are doing is producing an emotional
                              transient. Like a crack demon anticipating the "rush".

                              So if they can do it, then why not the Existentialist in
                              savouring the thought of the future perfection. I certainly
                              think of it when considering myself with perhaps 20 less
                              pounds. Perhaps flexing my muscles on Wreck Beach.

                              eduard

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 11:00 AM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Striving for Perfection


                              >
                              > the object of our perfection can be none other than
                              ourselves as better than we now are....an imaginary,
                              fantastical image of ourselves in a better light.
                              >
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