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Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists

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  • George Walton
    Jedi, A nihilist never asks what to do with nihilism. You get on with the business of living your life---just like the other 6 billion odd folks interspersed
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 10, 2003
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      Jedi,

      A nihilist never asks "what to do" with nihilism. You get on with the business of living your life---just like the other 6 billion odd folks interspersed on the planet do. About 99.9999999999% of whom never even heard of nihilism, right? You just do it without God and Moral Absolutes and Truth and Justice and Right and Wrong and Good and Bad. You sort of improvise as you go along.

      Oh, and never, ever confuse philosophy with what human existence actually encopasses. This: birth, school, work and death. Just like the song said it does. Unless, of course, you inherited a fortune from Mommy and Daddy. Then you get to skip the third part.

      Biggie



      jedi_pocky <jedi_pocky@...> wrote:
      Greetings. i have been neglecting this group despite newly joining..
      i am glad for your post for it is just in time to consider my
      question.
      what should i do with my growing nihilism? i shouldnt treat this as
      a 'therapy' group but it is a problem with philosophical basis.

      Yes sartre said that nothingless lies in the heart of our being. from
      nothingness we make ourselves and essences through our actions, give
      meaning to our lives. intentionality is the basis of our actions.
      choice - we choose what we want to do and do it, for our selves.

      i dont want anything. nope. i have no genuine desires except for the
      meantime, out of ecessity to give myself projects to continue life,
      despite the awareness of futility. i really dont want anything out of
      this life or to make anything out of myself. i want nothing, in fact
      i want nothingness. this has been bugging me for some time and is
      getting in my way of everything.

      what do i do, oh what do i do?

      yours,
      franz pocky


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    • gualey9090@aol.com
      It shouldn t bother you the fact that you don t want anything. If it does, it might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do really
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 10, 2003
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        It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
        might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
        really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
        is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
        meaningless of all this crappy world.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M Hirakis
        it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it didn t, then hope wouldn t exist nor would relationships. so do you think what you just said has
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 10, 2003
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          it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so do you think what you just said has meaning?

          gualey9090@... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
          might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
          really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
          is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
          meaningless of all this crappy world.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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        • George Walton
          Gualey, If you don t want anything, why the hell don t you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting:
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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            Gualey,

            If you don't want anything, why the hell don't you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting: good food, love, sex, music, friendship, children, careers, artistic creativity, athletic accomplishment etc etc etc.

            Maybe your idea of "nothing" is different from mine. It sure as hell is not the equivalent of "nothingness", is it? That's oblivion. That's really nothing.

            This world is "crappy", that's for sure. Especially, say, for the 18,500 kids aged 5 years and younger who will die from starvation in the next 24 hours on planet earth---while, in turn, the rich and powerful Big Buckmeisters who run the global economy that create the conditions that lead to the starvation pack down the food by the barrelful. Their problem is often obesity, isn't it?


            But most of us, of course, live somewhere in the middle of all that. If life is a shit sandwich for you that, in fact, may be what is precipitating your cynical defiance. But what does it have to do with a philosophical conjecture about wanting "nothing"?

            In other words, is or is not your attitude in here a psychological reflection of your own particular circumstances [which may unfold largely because you do nothing to change them] or are you trying to say something about the "human concidion" that more or less transcends a particular point of view in a particular situation?

            Biggie

            gualey9090@... wrote:
            It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
            might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
            really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
            is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
            meaningless of all this crappy world.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          • gualey9090@aol.com
            To me, the definition of meaning is when I make sense, when I understand what it All means. I do not understand the purpose of Living, though I function in
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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              To me, the definition of meaning is when I make sense, when I understand what
              it All means. I do not understand the purpose of Living, though I function in
              Life pretty good, I do not understand the Origin, ergo, I do not understand
              the Path.
              you are right, what I say does not have meaning.
              peace


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • drQ
              Hope for what?.. I don t know Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our aloneness.. never the less... momentary! We exist alone in a meaningless
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                Hope for what?.. I don't know
                Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone! never knowing why.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: M Hirakis
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so do you think what you just said has meaning?

                gualey9090@... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
                might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
                really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
                is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
                meaningless of all this crappy world.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              • Apoptosis
                We are doomed to cling to life even while we find it unendurable ~William James APOPTOSIS ... From: George Walton To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                  "We are doomed to cling to life even while we find it unendurable" ~William James

                  APOPTOSIS
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: George Walton
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:21 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                  Gualey,

                  If you don't want anything, why the hell don't you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting: good food, love, sex, music, friendship, children, careers, artistic creativity, athletic accomplishment etc etc etc.

                  Maybe your idea of "nothing" is different from mine. It sure as hell is not the equivalent of "nothingness", is it? That's oblivion. That's really nothing.

                  This world is "crappy", that's for sure. Especially, say, for the 18,500 kids aged 5 years and younger who will die from starvation in the next 24 hours on planet earth---while, in turn, the rich and powerful Big Buckmeisters who run the global economy that create the conditions that lead to the starvation pack down the food by the barrelful. Their problem is often obesity, isn't it?


                  But most of us, of course, live somewhere in the middle of all that. If life is a shit sandwich for you that, in fact, may be what is precipitating your cynical defiance. But what does it have to do with a philosophical conjecture about wanting "nothing"?

                  In other words, is or is not your attitude in here a psychological reflection of your own particular circumstances [which may unfold largely because you do nothing to change them] or are you trying to say something about the "human concidion" that more or less transcends a particular point of view in a particular situation?

                  Biggie

                  gualey9090@... wrote:
                  It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
                  might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
                  really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
                  is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
                  meaningless of all this crappy world.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                • mchirakis
                  if we exist then we have a mind therefore we having meaning. by having a mind we have a choice - freedom of choice that dictates our life. by having a choice
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                    if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having meaning.
                    by having a mind we have a choice - freedom of choice that
                    dictates our life. by having a choice we have to give meaning to
                    things. by living each day meaning is giving by our actions b/c
                    we do not exist alone - there are billions of people in this world.
                    your actions effect others just as other's effect you. i have
                    effected you by deriving a response. if this world is meaningless
                    than, in my opinion you would not be in a "group" discussing the
                    meaning of how much the world doesn't mean. so i'll go back to
                    my question....does what you say have meaning?

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                    > Hope for what?.. I don't know
                    > Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our
                    aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                    > We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone!
                    never knowing why.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: M Hirakis
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                    >
                    >
                    > it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it
                    didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so do
                    you think what you just said has meaning?
                    >
                    > gualey9090@a... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that you
                    don't want anything. If it does, it
                    > might be because you do want to do something in this Life,
                    may be you do
                    > really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is
                    something, it is a Lot! It
                    > is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone
                    who understands the
                    > meaningless of all this crappy world.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
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                  • drQ
                    ... THIS REALLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME! THE MIND CREATE ILLUSIONS NOT MEANINGS TO MAKE LIFE BEARABLE. AND PEOPLE ... ME AFFECTING THEM.. THEY AFFECTING
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                      > if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having meaning
                      THIS REALLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME! THE MIND CREATE ILLUSIONS NOT "MEANINGS" TO MAKE LIFE BEARABLE.
                      AND "PEOPLE"... ME AFFECTING THEM.. THEY AFFECTING ME.. WHO ME? WHO THEY? STILL UNDER THE ILLUSION THAT WE ARE THE SUPREME ORGANISMS EXISTING.. WE ARE ONLY A TINY AND MAYBE A HARMFUL PART OF THIS ECOSYSTEM. MAYBE IF WE GO EXTINCT THAT WILL BENEFIT PLANET EARTH. AND HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THAT INSECTS WILL RULE THE WORLD SOMEDAY!

                      WHY I'M HERE... I'M HERE FIRSTLY BECAUSE THIS GROUP PROVIDES ME WITH MENTAL STIMULATION. IN THAT I FIND GREAT PLEASURE. TO A LESSER EXTENT, I CONNECT FOR AWHILE AND THAT MIGHT LESSEN MY ALIENATION!

                      HOPE FOR WHAT?... WHAT RELATIONSHIPS?

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: mchirakis
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:25 PM
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                      if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having meaning.
                      by having a mind we have a choice - freedom of choice that
                      dictates our life. by having a choice we have to give meaning to
                      things. by living each day meaning is giving by our actions b/c
                      we do not exist alone - there are billions of people in this world.
                      your actions effect others just as other's effect you. i have
                      effected you by deriving a response. if this world is meaningless
                      than, in my opinion you would not be in a "group" discussing the
                      meaning of how much the world doesn't mean. so i'll go back to
                      my question....does what you say have meaning?

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                      > Hope for what?.. I don't know
                      > Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our
                      aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                      > We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone!
                      never knowing why.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: M Hirakis
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                      >
                      >
                      > it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it
                      didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so do
                      you think what you just said has meaning?
                      >
                      > gualey9090@a... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that you
                      don't want anything. If it does, it
                      > might be because you do want to do something in this Life,
                      may be you do
                      > really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is
                      something, it is a Lot! It
                      > is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone
                      who understands the
                      > meaningless of all this crappy world.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
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                      Service.
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                      >
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                    • George Walton
                      Ah, but of course we are not doomed to cling to life. Especially when we find it unendurable. That is why many choose suicide. The true horror would be if we
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                        Ah, but of course we are not doomed to cling to life. Especially when we find it unendurable. That is why many choose suicide. The true horror would be if we could not endure life and could not choose to die.

                        That is, in fact, what makes Hell such an effective bogeyman. You toe the Christian line less in anticipation of going to Heavan than of going to Hell. It also bespeaks just how sadistic a monster this "loving, just and merciful" Lord, really is, eh?

                        All I can think to say is this: thank God he does not exist!

                        Biggie

                        Apoptosis <dr-q@...> wrote:
                        "We are doomed to cling to life even while we find it unendurable" ~William James

                        APOPTOSIS
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: George Walton
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:21 PM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                        Gualey,

                        If you don't want anything, why the hell don't you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting: good food, love, sex, music, friendship, children, careers, artistic creativity, athletic accomplishment etc etc etc.

                        Maybe your idea of "nothing" is different from mine. It sure as hell is not the equivalent of "nothingness", is it? That's oblivion. That's really nothing.

                        This world is "crappy", that's for sure. Especially, say, for the 18,500 kids aged 5 years and younger who will die from starvation in the next 24 hours on planet earth---while, in turn, the rich and powerful Big Buckmeisters who run the global economy that create the conditions that lead to the starvation pack down the food by the barrelful. Their problem is often obesity, isn't it?


                        But most of us, of course, live somewhere in the middle of all that. If life is a shit sandwich for you that, in fact, may be what is precipitating your cynical defiance. But what does it have to do with a philosophical conjecture about wanting "nothing"?

                        In other words, is or is not your attitude in here a psychological reflection of your own particular circumstances [which may unfold largely because you do nothing to change them] or are you trying to say something about the "human concidion" that more or less transcends a particular point of view in a particular situation?

                        Biggie

                        gualey9090@... wrote:
                        It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
                        might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
                        really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
                        is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
                        meaningless of all this crappy world.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      • mchirakis
                        if the mind only creates illusions, than what is philosophy? an illusion? the mind does create meaning by choice, by actions, by thoughts, by emotions. the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                          if the mind only creates illusions, than what is philosophy? an
                          illusion? the mind does create meaning by choice, by actions,
                          by thoughts, by emotions. the REASON for these things may be
                          to make life bearable, but that does not negate that it has
                          meaning.

                          who me? your physical being (organisms) your tangible body
                          and your active mind. who they? the other bodies/beings you
                          see/hear/touch/smell (unfortunately)/and on occasion taste.

                          my point is people, however you want to define them, exist. they
                          are not illusions. you are not an illusion. you exist, just as i exist.
                          we don't have to be "superior organisms", but even being "only a
                          tiny and harmful part" MEANS it's not an illusion....just as you
                          said. and yes, i believe we will become extinct just like
                          everything else living.

                          i'm glad you are here b/c you are creating mental stimulation for
                          me as i hope i'm doing for you. is this an illusion? to me these
                          thoughts are real, these discussions are real.

                          you are alienated only if you choose to be. do you connect or
                          don't you? and why?

                          hope for what? i hope for many things. hope does not confirm
                          reality, but it does provide stimulation. hope is not an illusion,
                          b/c it is not saying something is real that isn't, hope is wanting
                          something to become reality - which may or may not happen. i
                          hope you will respond to this post, which you may or may not do.

                          what relationships? the connection you have with this group


                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                          > > if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having
                          meaning
                          > THIS REALLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME! THE MIND
                          CREATE ILLUSIONS NOT "MEANINGS" TO MAKE LIFE
                          BEARABLE.
                          > AND "PEOPLE"... ME AFFECTING THEM.. THEY AFFECTING
                          ME.. WHO ME? WHO THEY? STILL UNDER THE ILLUSION
                          THAT WE ARE THE SUPREME ORGANISMS EXISTING.. WE
                          ARE ONLY A TINY AND MAYBE A HARMFUL PART OF THIS
                          ECOSYSTEM. MAYBE IF WE GO EXTINCT THAT WILL BENEFIT
                          PLANET EARTH. AND HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THAT INSECTS
                          WILL RULE THE WORLD SOMEDAY!
                          >
                          > WHY I'M HERE... I'M HERE FIRSTLY BECAUSE THIS GROUP
                          PROVIDES ME WITH MENTAL STIMULATION. IN THAT I FIND
                          GREAT PLEASURE. TO A LESSER EXTENT, I CONNECT FOR
                          AWHILE AND THAT MIGHT LESSEN MY ALIENATION!
                          >
                          > HOPE FOR WHAT?... WHAT RELATIONSHIPS?
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: mchirakis
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:25 PM
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                          >
                          >
                          > if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having
                          meaning.
                          > by having a mind we have a choice - freedom of choice that
                          > dictates our life. by having a choice we have to give meaning
                          to
                          > things. by living each day meaning is giving by our actions b/c
                          > we do not exist alone - there are billions of people in this
                          world.
                          > your actions effect others just as other's effect you. i have
                          > effected you by deriving a response. if this world is
                          meaningless
                          > than, in my opinion you would not be in a "group" discussing
                          the
                          > meaning of how much the world doesn't mean. so i'll go back
                          to
                          > my question....does what you say have meaning?
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                          > > Hope for what?.. I don't know
                          > > Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our
                          > aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                          > > We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone!
                          > never knowing why.
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: M Hirakis
                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it
                          > didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so
                          do
                          > you think what you just said has meaning?
                          > >
                          > > gualey9090@a... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that
                          you
                          > don't want anything. If it does, it
                          > > might be because you do want to do something in this Life,
                          > may be you do
                          > > really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is
                          > something, it is a Lot! It
                          > > is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with
                          someone
                          > who understands the
                          > > meaningless of all this crappy world.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
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                        • drQ
                          IT IS THE TRUE HORROR INDEED! So to be sick unto death is, not to be able to die-- yet not as though there were hope of life. ~S?ren Kierkegaard (the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                            IT IS THE TRUE HORROR INDEED!

                            "So to be sick unto death is, not to be able to die--
                            yet not as though there were hope of life."

                            ~S?ren Kierkegaard (the sickness unto death)

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: George Walton
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:58 PM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                            Ah, but of course we are not doomed to cling to life. Especially when we find it unendurable. That is why many choose suicide. The true horror would be if we could not endure life and could not choose to die.

                            That is, in fact, what makes Hell such an effective bogeyman. You toe the Christian line less in anticipation of going to Heavan than of going to Hell. It also bespeaks just how sadistic a monster this "loving, just and merciful" Lord, really is, eh?

                            All I can think to say is this: thank God he does not exist!

                            Biggie

                            Apoptosis <dr-q@...> wrote:
                            "We are doomed to cling to life even while we find it unendurable" ~William James

                            APOPTOSIS
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: George Walton
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:21 PM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                            Gualey,

                            If you don't want anything, why the hell don't you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting: good food, love, sex, music, friendship, children, careers, artistic creativity, athletic accomplishment etc etc etc.

                            Maybe your idea of "nothing" is different from mine. It sure as hell is not the equivalent of "nothingness", is it? That's oblivion. That's really nothing.

                            This world is "crappy", that's for sure. Especially, say, for the 18,500 kids aged 5 years and younger who will die from starvation in the next 24 hours on planet earth---while, in turn, the rich and powerful Big Buckmeisters who run the global economy that create the conditions that lead to the starvation pack down the food by the barrelful. Their problem is often obesity, isn't it?


                            But most of us, of course, live somewhere in the middle of all that. If life is a shit sandwich for you that, in fact, may be what is precipitating your cynical defiance. But what does it have to do with a philosophical conjecture about wanting "nothing"?

                            In other words, is or is not your attitude in here a psychological reflection of your own particular circumstances [which may unfold largely because you do nothing to change them] or are you trying to say something about the "human concidion" that more or less transcends a particular point of view in a particular situation?

                            Biggie

                            gualey9090@... wrote:
                            It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
                            might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
                            really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
                            is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
                            meaningless of all this crappy world.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                          • drQ
                            Sisyphus is the son of Aeolus (the king of Thessaly) and Enarete, and founder of Corinth. He instituted, among others, the Isthmian Games. According to
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                              Sisyphus is the son of Aeolus (the king of Thessaly) and Enarete, and founder of Corinth. He instituted, among others, the Isthmian Games. According to tradition he was sly and evil and used to way-lay travelers and murder them. He betrayed the secrets of the gods and chained the god of death, Thanatos, so the deceased could not reach the underworld. Hades himself intervened and Sisyphus was severely punished.
                              I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

                              ---Albert Camus---

                              Good nite 4 now.. it's late in this part of Earth!

                              ----- Original Message -----

                              From: mchirakis
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:34 AM
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: illusions - nihilism


                              if the mind only creates illusions, than what is philosophy? an
                              illusion? the mind does create meaning by choice, by actions,
                              by thoughts, by emotions. the REASON for these things may be
                              to make life bearable, but that does not negate that it has
                              meaning.

                              who me? your physical being (organisms) your tangible body
                              and your active mind. who they? the other bodies/beings you
                              see/hear/touch/smell (unfortunately)/and on occasion taste.

                              my point is people, however you want to define them, exist. they
                              are not illusions. you are not an illusion. you exist, just as i exist.
                              we don't have to be "superior organisms", but even being "only a
                              tiny and harmful part" MEANS it's not an illusion....just as you
                              said. and yes, i believe we will become extinct just like
                              everything else living.

                              i'm glad you are here b/c you are creating mental stimulation for
                              me as i hope i'm doing for you. is this an illusion? to me these
                              thoughts are real, these discussions are real.

                              you are alienated only if you choose to be. do you connect or
                              don't you? and why?

                              hope for what? i hope for many things. hope does not confirm
                              reality, but it does provide stimulation. hope is not an illusion,
                              b/c it is not saying something is real that isn't, hope is wanting
                              something to become reality - which may or may not happen. i
                              hope you will respond to this post, which you may or may not do.

                              what relationships? the connection you have with this group


                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                              > > if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having
                              meaning
                              > THIS REALLY DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME! THE MIND
                              CREATE ILLUSIONS NOT "MEANINGS" TO MAKE LIFE
                              BEARABLE.
                              > AND "PEOPLE"... ME AFFECTING THEM.. THEY AFFECTING
                              ME.. WHO ME? WHO THEY? STILL UNDER THE ILLUSION
                              THAT WE ARE THE SUPREME ORGANISMS EXISTING.. WE
                              ARE ONLY A TINY AND MAYBE A HARMFUL PART OF THIS
                              ECOSYSTEM. MAYBE IF WE GO EXTINCT THAT WILL BENEFIT
                              PLANET EARTH. AND HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THAT INSECTS
                              WILL RULE THE WORLD SOMEDAY!
                              >
                              > WHY I'M HERE... I'M HERE FIRSTLY BECAUSE THIS GROUP
                              PROVIDES ME WITH MENTAL STIMULATION. IN THAT I FIND
                              GREAT PLEASURE. TO A LESSER EXTENT, I CONNECT FOR
                              AWHILE AND THAT MIGHT LESSEN MY ALIENATION!
                              >
                              > HOPE FOR WHAT?... WHAT RELATIONSHIPS?
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: mchirakis
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:25 PM
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                              >
                              >
                              > if we "exist" then we have a mind therefore we having
                              meaning.
                              > by having a mind we have a choice - freedom of choice that
                              > dictates our life. by having a choice we have to give meaning
                              to
                              > things. by living each day meaning is giving by our actions b/c
                              > we do not exist alone - there are billions of people in this
                              world.
                              > your actions effect others just as other's effect you. i have
                              > effected you by deriving a response. if this world is
                              meaningless
                              > than, in my opinion you would not be in a "group" discussing
                              the
                              > meaning of how much the world doesn't mean. so i'll go back
                              to
                              > my question....does what you say have meaning?
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "drQ" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                              > > Hope for what?.. I don't know
                              > > Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our
                              > aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                              > > We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone!
                              > never knowing why.
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: M Hirakis
                              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                              > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > it seems to me this crappy world does have meaning. if it
                              > didn't, then hope wouldn't exist nor would relationships. so
                              do
                              > you think what you just said has meaning?
                              > >
                              > > gualey9090@a... wrote:It shouldn't bother you the fact that
                              you
                              > don't want anything. If it does, it
                              > > might be because you do want to do something in this Life,
                              > may be you do
                              > > really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is
                              > something, it is a Lot! It
                              > > is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with
                              someone
                              > who understands the
                              > > meaningless of all this crappy world.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • drQ
                              Ah... this God is not only sadistic... he is also stupid. Given all these powers and billion of years, I mean couldn t he done better? Thank God he does not
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 11, 2003
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                                Ah... this God is not only sadistic... he is also stupid. Given all these powers and billion of years, I mean couldn't he done better?
                                Thank God he does not exist.
                                Good nite, Apoptosis/drQ
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: George Walton
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:58 PM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                                Ah, but of course we are not doomed to cling to life. Especially when we find it unendurable. That is why many choose suicide. The true horror would be if we could not endure life and could not choose to die.

                                That is, in fact, what makes Hell such an effective bogeyman. You toe the Christian line less in anticipation of going to Heavan than of going to Hell. It also bespeaks just how sadistic a monster this "loving, just and merciful" Lord, really is, eh?

                                All I can think to say is this: thank God he does not exist!

                                Biggie

                                Apoptosis <dr-q@...> wrote:
                                "We are doomed to cling to life even while we find it unendurable" ~William James

                                APOPTOSIS
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: George Walton
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:21 PM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Attention All Nihilists


                                Gualey,

                                If you don't want anything, why the hell don't you just take the pills and get it over with? Seriously, there are any number of things worth wanting: good food, love, sex, music, friendship, children, careers, artistic creativity, athletic accomplishment etc etc etc.

                                Maybe your idea of "nothing" is different from mine. It sure as hell is not the equivalent of "nothingness", is it? That's oblivion. That's really nothing.

                                This world is "crappy", that's for sure. Especially, say, for the 18,500 kids aged 5 years and younger who will die from starvation in the next 24 hours on planet earth---while, in turn, the rich and powerful Big Buckmeisters who run the global economy that create the conditions that lead to the starvation pack down the food by the barrelful. Their problem is often obesity, isn't it?


                                But most of us, of course, live somewhere in the middle of all that. If life is a shit sandwich for you that, in fact, may be what is precipitating your cynical defiance. But what does it have to do with a philosophical conjecture about wanting "nothing"?

                                In other words, is or is not your attitude in here a psychological reflection of your own particular circumstances [which may unfold largely because you do nothing to change them] or are you trying to say something about the "human concidion" that more or less transcends a particular point of view in a particular situation?

                                Biggie

                                gualey9090@... wrote:
                                It shouldn't bother you the fact that you don't want anything. If it does, it
                                might be because you do want to do something in this Life, may be you do
                                really want to desire, wish, or have Hope. Nothing is something, it is a Lot! It
                                is deep and sweet, great to share nothingness with someone who understands the
                                meaningless of all this crappy world.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                              • christine freeman
                                drQ wrote: Hope for what?.. I don t know Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our aloneness.. never the less... momentary! We
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 13, 2003
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                                  drQ <dr-q@...> wrote:
                                  Hope for what?.. I don't know
                                  Relationships? ah.. momentary fusions that lessen our aloneness.. never the less... momentary!
                                  We exist alone in a meaningless world then we die alone! never knowing why.


                                  DrQ,

                                  I don't hope and still hope for normal happiness, I am not searching and yet searching for joy, esctasies, and all the indescribable human emotions, because I am still alive, even if I know that nothing lasts, but what do I know? I feel lonely in the crowd because no one knows me and understands me, I am alone, yes, but if I can find someone like me, as alone, as miserable, perhaps I would not be lonely and alone any longer, we'd be alone together, am I being too romantic?

                                  Yes, we die alone, so what? Why would I need someone to die with me? Does that make me feel less lonely under the earth? I don't care about dying alone, that idea never bothers me, I am just unhappy because I am longing for love and yet feel unable to love exclusively and for a long time, but is it my fault?

                                  Christine









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                                • Mattlzpf@aol.com
                                  ... -- from Toward a Genealogy of Morals maybe he does what nothingness huh? --MATT_C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 16, 2003
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                                    "
                                    > Apart from the ascetic ideal, man, the animal man, had no meaning so far.
                                    > His existence on earth contained no goal; "why man at all?"—was a question
                                    > without an answer; the will for man and earth was lacking; behind every great
                                    > human destiny there sounded as a refrain a yet greater "in vain!" This is
                                    > precisely what the ascetic ideal means: that something was lacking, that man was
                                    > surrounded by a fearful void—he did not know how to justify, to account for,
                                    > to affirm himself, he suffered from the problem of his meaning. He also
                                    > suffered otherwise, he was in the main a sickly animal: but his problem was not
                                    > suffering itself, but that there was no answer to the crying question, "why do I
                                    > suffer?"
                                    >
                                    > Man, the bravest of animals and the one most accustomed to suffering, does
                                    > not repudiate suffering as such; he desires it, he even seeks it out, provided
                                    > he is shown a meaning for it, a purpose of suffering. The meaninglessness of
                                    > suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse that lay over mankind so far—
                                    > and the ascetic ideal offered man meaning! It was the only meaning offered so
                                    > far; any meaning is better than none at all; the ascetic ideal was in every
                                    > sense the "Faute de mieux" par excellence so far [Faute de mieux means "for
                                    > want of something better." The italicized phrase means something like "the
                                    > pre-eminent next-best-thing."]. In it, suffering was interpreted; the tremendous
                                    > void seemed to have been filled; the door was closed to any kind of suicidal
                                    > nihilism. This interpretation—there is no doubt of it—brought fresh
                                    > suffering with it, deeper, more inward, more poisonous, more life-destructive
                                    > suffering: it placed all suffering under the perspective of guilt.
                                    >
                                    > But all this notwithstanding —man was saved thereby, he possessed a meaning,
                                    > he was henceforth no longer like a leaf in the wind, a plaything of nonsense—
                                    > the "sense-less"— he could now will something; no matter at first to what
                                    > end, why, with what he willed: the will itself was saved.
                                    >
                                    > We can no longer conceal from ourselves what is expressed by all that
                                    > willing which has taken its direction from the ascetic ideal: this hatred of the
                                    > human, and even more of the animal, and more still of the material, this horror
                                    > of the senses, of reason itself, this fear of happiness and beauty, this
                                    > longing to get away from all appearance, change, becoming, death, wishing, from
                                    > longing itself—all this means—let us dare to grasp it—a will to nothingness,
                                    > an aversion to life, a rebellion against the most fundamental
                                    > presuppositions of life, but it is and remains a will! ... And, to repeat in conclusion
                                    > what I said at the beginning: rather than want nothing, man even wants
                                    > nothingness. —
                                    >
                                    > "
                                    -- from Toward a Genealogy of Morals

                                    maybe he does what nothingness huh?

                                    --MATT_C


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Cecille Calvo
                                    Hi this might be exhausting. Sorry in advance. can anyone tell me more about the ascetic ideal? It was easy to believe when I was younger (catholic background
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 16, 2003
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                                      Hi this might be exhausting. Sorry in advance. can anyone tell me more about the ascetic ideal?

                                      It was easy to believe when I was younger (catholic background and all) that our suffering had purpose somehow, as sacred sacrifice to a God who traded grace with tears--as long as it is offered to him--and his help is sought in every trouble. For what end, I didn't know. Much of it I never understood. It's just that my Sunday school teacher said it was a good idea. It just is.

                                      Now,slightly older, the break from all this happened and in the state of questioning, it is easy to feel desolation when you have no one or no tenet to take comfort from. But what is not easy is to relapse into the kick of an inherited history, where the religious experience is not mine, but was that of another in which I have to take comfort from. So now it's a hell of a state. I fear I've become some sort of a whore, hopping from one idea to another, and just when something makes sense as absolutely as you knew fate at last---I meet people---unaware of the works of nihilism and existentialism ---that have a firmer understanding of a hope that they develop over the years--that give them purpose as it should give others purpose--- of simpler ideals like the possibility of having a loving wife --- impeded by the desire to understand what he suffered (he was a soldier that saw and did terrible, terrible things in Croatia and Somalia) He deplores his suffering and is a sickly sad
                                      man--but he fails to see how he wallows in it and is immersed in it--but he is without the slightest inclination to consider that man can will himself, either out of it deep into it or whatever directions he wishes to live with it---as long as he recognizes some form of control--- instead of suffering under the perspective of guilt--as if he is the victim of his dreams. Then I begin to lose confidence or awareness. An awareness that gave me an experience as close as the religious ones i have been told as a child. He says how much can a 22 year old really understand of the suffering of man? the guilty, purposeless, life-destroying suffering of man. A girl who

                                      I guess the question is----this ascetic ideal, tell me works where I can see the truth---show me a man who wants nothing. (Camus' Mersault? Sisyphus?) Direct me to wrtten work, other minds. Show me please: A hater of humans, even more of animals, more still of the material, a woman horrified by the senses, of reason, a man afraid of happiness and beauty, a man longing to get away from all appearance, change, becoming, death, wishes, from longing itself, a man with an version to life, a rebel against the most fundamental presuppositions, A man that wants nothing. Even if he is only man as he ought to be. Everybody wants something it appears and he suffers because he will grovel and beg and pray and praise because it shall be taken away from him.



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                                    • Mattlzpf@aol.com
                                      Ascetic means to deny oneself pleasure and luxuries. Nietzsche s idea was that man suffered from the fact that he had no meaning. Since, suffering for a
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 19, 2003
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                                        Ascetic means to deny oneself pleasure and luxuries. Nietzsche's idea
                                        was that man suffered from the fact that he had no meaning. Since, suffering
                                        for a reason is better than suffering for no reason, man created meaning out
                                        of his suffering and with this ascetic ideal, gave himself meaning. However,
                                        since the ascetic ideal basically means denying man pleasure, luxury and
                                        overall happiness while involving suffering, the ascetic ideal gives man a meaning
                                        that is contradicatory to life itself. (the whole idea of nature it seems is
                                        to be free and without controls) So, because man doesn't want a life that
                                        means nothing, he gives himself meaning through the ascetic ideal which,
                                        ironically is a will (will -- the mental faculty by which a person decides upon and
                                        controls his own actions or those of others) to nothingness since it requires
                                        that man be denied pleasures and the fruits of life. Nietzsche's play on words
                                        explains that man will accept a meaning for his existence that yields the idea
                                        of nothingness (that is, no pleasure, no happiness and no enjoyment of life)
                                        before he accepts the idea of actually having nothing (that is, no meaning to
                                        life).

                                        --MATT_C


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