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Ethics and Power

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  • Mary Jo Malo
    Oh heck, Biggie, here s something for you to pick apart. I think you ll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo POWER One of the most
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 22, 2003
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      Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
      you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo

      "POWER

      One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist must
      cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
      necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
      idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
      ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of Gandhi
      and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
      themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
      inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there have
      been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of all
      humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
      tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
      western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
      citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less and
      less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
      Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
      are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
      essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
      adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
      American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
      idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
      aspirations.

      The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
      been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
      and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
      as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
      generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in the
      defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
      life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
      aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist. Indeed
      if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the level
      of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
      eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will be
      ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new god.
      Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire beyond
      the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To paraphrase
      Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking meters."
      Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves of
      the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
      existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated by
      gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
      to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God imagining
      allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
      whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness came
      to be.

      If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
      must become individually empowered. We must become individual forces
      to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
      manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
      define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
      human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us as
      individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
      imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
      truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
      unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of here,
      we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
      communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
      another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
      only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
      imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
      world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here is
      only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
      consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life. The
      language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is the
      known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What we
      are individually aware of we sent out into the distance individually.
      It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance. We
      are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of us
      have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
      become individually empowered here we must master our own
      imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
      out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
      know is only our expression of who we think they are."

      By Trinidad Cruz
    • George Walton
      Mary, Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100 years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the disease. So
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
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        Mary,

        Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100 years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the disease. So there is no question of "overthrowing" the global economy. At best you can work from within The System [and there really is one] to reform the most egregious and abusive policies.

        And as soon as any political movement starts in on the Right behavior/Wrong behavior chant/rant, I completely dismiss them out of hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with human reality. Optimally, in my opinion, politics is about moderating the extremes, compromise, negociating and ceaselessly renegociating legislative [coercive] aggendas in the ebb and flow of political economy. And this only applies to social issues. When it comes down to fundamental economic and foreign policy issues, might always makes it right. Period. End of story.

        As for what your average citizen believes about the nature of those fundamental economic and foreign issues it is, once again, to historical reality what a crack in the sidewalk is the the Grand Canyon. The gap is simply staggering.

        Respecting conjectures about America becoming "fascist" that, in my view, will only happen if the crisis becomes extreme. And, if it does, it will have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with ideals or ethics!!! That is only what the ruling class will dispense through the media for public consuption; like they do now with Iraq. If this Cruz character actually believes morality and philosophy is what propels history along I've got a bridge to sell him. That is intellectual la la land.

        When, for example, does he actually get around to ennumerating which behaviors are or are not "ethical"? And when does he get around to situating this moral behavior out in the real world where people hold jobs to raise kids and sustain families?

        Once he got into the psycho-babble bullshit about love, I couldn't read anymore. However well intentioned [and he certainly projects that] this guy is an intellectual fruitcake, in my view. He lives in the delusional world where The Real Self [naturally/nobly Good of course] actually exists and has only been corrupted in being bought off by the trinkets and baubles of consumerism.

        Would that it could be that simple, eh?

        Biggie







        Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
        Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
        you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo

        "POWER

        One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist must
        cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
        necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
        idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
        ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of Gandhi
        and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
        themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
        inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there have
        been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of all
        humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
        tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
        western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
        citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less and
        less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
        Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
        are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
        essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
        adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
        American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
        idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
        aspirations.

        The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
        been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
        and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
        as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
        generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in the
        defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
        life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
        aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist. Indeed
        if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the level
        of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
        eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will be
        ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new god.
        Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire beyond
        the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To paraphrase
        Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking meters."
        Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves of
        the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
        existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated by
        gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
        to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God imagining
        allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
        whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness came
        to be.

        If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
        must become individually empowered. We must become individual forces
        to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
        manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
        define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
        human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us as
        individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
        imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
        truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
        unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of here,
        we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
        communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
        another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
        only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
        imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
        world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here is
        only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
        consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life. The
        language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is the
        known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What we
        are individually aware of we sent out into the distance individually.
        It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance. We
        are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of us
        have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
        become individually empowered here we must master our own
        imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
        out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
        know is only our expression of who we think they are."

        By Trinidad Cruz




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      • Mary Jo Malo
        Biggie, I m disappointed. You failed to surprise me. Oh well, maybe another time. The author never really defines moral behavior. He simply suggests that it
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
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          Biggie,

          I'm disappointed. You failed to surprise me. Oh well, maybe another time.

          The author never really defines moral behavior. He simply suggests that it might be like something we now call love. Also, there's every possibility that the author's works and real life, taken as a whole, describe the work-a-day world we all live in. Perhaps it was the harsh realities of the world which set him upon such an endeavor, to find solutions. But being a polemicist, that's not your ballywick, right?

          Mary Jo

          George Walton <iambiguously@...> wrote:
          Mary,

          Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100 years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the disease. So there is no question of "overthrowing" the global economy. At best you can work from within The System [and there really is one] to reform the most egregious and abusive policies.

          And as soon as any political movement starts in on the Right behavior/Wrong behavior chant/rant, I completely dismiss them out of hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with human reality. Optimally, in my opinion, politics is about moderating the extremes, compromise, negociating and ceaselessly renegociating legislative [coercive] aggendas in the ebb and flow of political economy. And this only applies to social issues. When it comes down to fundamental economic and foreign policy issues, might always makes it right. Period. End of story.

          As for what your average citizen believes about the nature of those fundamental economic and foreign issues it is, once again, to historical reality what a crack in the sidewalk is the the Grand Canyon. The gap is simply staggering.

          Respecting conjectures about America becoming "fascist" that, in my view, will only happen if the crisis becomes extreme. And, if it does, it will have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with ideals or ethics!!! That is only what the ruling class will dispense through the media for public consuption; like they do now with Iraq. If this Cruz character actually believes morality and philosophy is what propels history along I've got a bridge to sell him. That is intellectual la la land.

          When, for example, does he actually get around to ennumerating which behaviors are or are not "ethical"? And when does he get around to situating this moral behavior out in the real world where people hold jobs to raise kids and sustain families?

          Once he got into the psycho-babble bullshit about love, I couldn't read anymore. However well intentioned [and he certainly projects that] this guy is an intellectual fruitcake, in my view. He lives in the delusional world where The Real Self [naturally/nobly Good of course] actually exists and has only been corrupted in being bought off by the trinkets and baubles of consumerism.

          Would that it could be that simple, eh?

          Biggie







          Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
          Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
          you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo

          "POWER

          One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist must
          cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
          necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
          idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
          ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of Gandhi
          and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
          themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
          inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there have
          been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of all
          humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
          tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
          western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
          citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less and
          less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
          Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
          are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
          essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
          adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
          American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
          idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
          aspirations.

          The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
          been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
          and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
          as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
          generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in the
          defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
          life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
          aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist. Indeed
          if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the level
          of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
          eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will be
          ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new god.
          Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire beyond
          the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To paraphrase
          Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking meters."
          Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves of
          the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
          existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated by
          gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
          to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God imagining
          allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
          whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness came
          to be.

          If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
          must become individually empowered. We must become individual forces
          to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
          manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
          define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
          human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us as
          individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
          imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
          truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
          unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of here,
          we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
          communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
          another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
          only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
          imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
          world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here is
          only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
          consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life. The
          language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is the
          known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What we
          are individually aware of we sent out into the distance individually.
          It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance. We
          are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of us
          have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
          become individually empowered here we must master our own
          imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
          out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
          know is only our expression of who we think they are."

          By Trinidad Cruz




          Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Echo
          ... Sorry to intrude between you two --- but is above statement really true!? I must say that the gap between how the Americans view themselves and how the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
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            >Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
            >are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
            >essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
            >adequate personal statement for ethics and justice.
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Sorry to intrude between you two --- but is above statement really true!?
            I must say that the gap between how the Americans view themselves and how the world really perceive them is really very wide! Or could be this guy does not see or hear pass the street he lives in!
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mary Jo Malo
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 4:47 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Ethics and Power


            Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
            you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo

            "POWER

            One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist must
            cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
            necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
            idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
            ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of Gandhi
            and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
            themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
            inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there have
            been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of all
            humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
            tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
            western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
            citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less and
            less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
            Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
            are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
            essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
            adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
            American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
            idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
            aspirations.

            The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
            been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
            and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
            as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
            generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in the
            defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
            life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
            aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist. Indeed
            if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the level
            of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
            eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will be
            ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new god.
            Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire beyond
            the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To paraphrase
            Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking meters."
            Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves of
            the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
            existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated by
            gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
            to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God imagining
            allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
            whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness came
            to be.

            If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
            must become individually empowered. We must become individual forces
            to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
            manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
            define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
            human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us as
            individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
            imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
            truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
            unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of here,
            we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
            communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
            another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
            only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
            imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
            world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here is
            only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
            consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life. The
            language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is the
            known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What we
            are individually aware of we sent out into the distance individually.
            It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance. We
            are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of us
            have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
            become individually empowered here we must master our own
            imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
            out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
            know is only our expression of who we think they are."

            By Trinidad Cruz





            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mary Jo Malo
            Echo, Cruz is criticizing the American citizen who DOES believe he is an activist for freedom. He s saying that this kind of person DOESN T have a clue. Simply
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Echo,

              Cruz is criticizing the American citizen who DOES believe he is an
              activist for freedom. He's saying that this kind of person DOESN'T
              have a clue. Simply calling yourself an American is NOT ad adequate
              personal statement. Cruz isn't condoning the attitude.

              Mary Jo

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Echo" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
              > >Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
              they
              > >are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
              > >essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is
              an
              > >adequate personal statement for ethics and justice.
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              -------
              > Sorry to intrude between you two --- but is above statement really
              true!?
              > I must say that the gap between how the Americans view themselves
              and how the world really perceive them is really very wide! Or could
              be this guy does not see or hear pass the street he lives in!
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mary Jo Malo
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 4:47 AM
              > Subject: [existlist] Ethics and Power
              >
              >
              > Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
              > you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo
              >
              > "POWER
              >
              > One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist
              must
              > cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the
              apparently
              > necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
              > idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns
              for
              > ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of
              Gandhi
              > and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
              > themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
              > inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there
              have
              > been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of
              all
              > humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where
              such
              > tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
              > western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
              > citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less
              and
              > less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
              > Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
              they
              > are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
              > essentially not free, and many believe that just being American
              is an
              > adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
              > American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
              > idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
              > aspirations.
              >
              > The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
              > been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e.
              Nazism
              > and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as
              well
              > as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
              > generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in
              the
              > defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
              > life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
              > aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist.
              Indeed
              > if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the
              level
              > of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
              > eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will
              be
              > ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new
              god.
              > Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire
              beyond
              > the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To
              paraphrase
              > Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking
              meters."
              > Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves
              of
              > the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
              > existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or
              generated by
              > gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect
              them
              > to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God
              imagining
              > allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
              > whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness
              came
              > to be.
              >
              > If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
              > must become individually empowered. We must become individual
              forces
              > to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
              > manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
              > define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning
              of
              > human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within
              us as
              > individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
              > imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
              > truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
              > unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of
              here,
              > we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
              > communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
              > another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
              > only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
              > imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
              > world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of
              here is
              > only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
              > consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life.
              The
              > language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is
              the
              > known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves.
              What we
              > are individually aware of we sent out into the distance
              individually.
              > It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance.
              We
              > are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of
              us
              > have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
              > become individually empowered here we must master our own
              > imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and
              manifest
              > out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
              > know is only our expression of who we think they are."
              >
              > By Trinidad Cruz
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
              >
              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Echo
              Fine! Thanx Jo ... From: Mary Jo Malo To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: [existlist] Re: Ethics and Power Echo,
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Fine! Thanx Jo
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Mary Jo Malo
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:41 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Ethics and Power


                Echo,

                Cruz is criticizing the American citizen who DOES believe he is an
                activist for freedom. He's saying that this kind of person DOESN'T
                have a clue. Simply calling yourself an American is NOT ad adequate
                personal statement. Cruz isn't condoning the attitude.

                Mary Jo

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Echo" <dr-q@j...> wrote:
                > >Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
                they
                > >are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
                > >essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is
                an
                > >adequate personal statement for ethics and justice.
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                -------
                > Sorry to intrude between you two --- but is above statement really
                true!?
                > I must say that the gap between how the Americans view themselves
                and how the world really perceive them is really very wide! Or could
                be this guy does not see or hear pass the street he lives in!
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Mary Jo Malo
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 4:47 AM
                > Subject: [existlist] Ethics and Power
                >
                >
                > Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
                > you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo
                >
                > "POWER
                >
                > One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist
                must
                > cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the
                apparently
                > necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
                > idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns
                for
                > ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of
                Gandhi
                > and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
                > themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
                > inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there
                have
                > been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of
                all
                > humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where
                such
                > tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
                > western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
                > citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less
                and
                > less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
                > Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
                they
                > are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
                > essentially not free, and many believe that just being American
                is an
                > adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
                > American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
                > idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
                > aspirations.
                >
                > The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
                > been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e.
                Nazism
                > and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as
                well
                > as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
                > generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in
                the
                > defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
                > life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
                > aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist.
                Indeed
                > if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the
                level
                > of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
                > eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will
                be
                > ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new
                god.
                > Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire
                beyond
                > the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To
                paraphrase
                > Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking
                meters."
                > Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves
                of
                > the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
                > existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or
                generated by
                > gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect
                them
                > to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God
                imagining
                > allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
                > whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness
                came
                > to be.
                >
                > If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
                > must become individually empowered. We must become individual
                forces
                > to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
                > manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
                > define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning
                of
                > human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within
                us as
                > individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
                > imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
                > truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
                > unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of
                here,
                > we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
                > communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
                > another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
                > only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
                > imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
                > world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of
                here is
                > only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
                > consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life.
                The
                > language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is
                the
                > known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves.
                What we
                > are individually aware of we sent out into the distance
                individually.
                > It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance.
                We
                > are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of
                us
                > have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
                > become individually empowered here we must master our own
                > imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and
                manifest
                > out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
                > know is only our expression of who we think they are."
                >
                > By Trinidad Cruz
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                >
                > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

                TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George Walton
                Mary Jo, I call em as I see him. Do you happen to know this guy? If so, bring him in here [or provide an email address] and I will personally make it quite
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mary Jo,

                  I call 'em as I see him. Do you happen to know this guy? If so, bring him in here [or provide an email address] and I will personally make it quite clear to him just how preposterous his views are respecting the real world.

                  It's all psycho-babble with a heart of gold. Like the Green Party folks. Gore, admittedly, ran the most pathetic presidential campaign in the history of the universe and he was up against the reactionary Dittoheads in the media, true; but that arrogantly self-righteous Nader on his own little ego-trip gave us George Bush and John Ashcroft and Karl Rove as far as I am concerned. He ought to be ashamed of himself. And Cruz, I suspect, would fit right in with that "we may not win but we are right" crowd. Only who is actually suffering the policies of the reactionaries? Most of these radical activists are students from middle class backgrounds. They aren't the ones being downsized out of a job, they aren't the ones standing in the soup lines, they aren't the ones who are victums of prejudice and discrimination. How much, for example, has Ralph personally suffered because of Bush's aggenda?

                  I love 'em all to death as individuals and for nearly 15 years I was one of them myself. But it is time to grow up [politically] and work with the democrats to yank as much reform out of the system as we can. All the rest is leftist la la land crap as far as I am concerned.

                  Biggie



                  Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
                  Biggie,

                  I'm disappointed. You failed to surprise me. Oh well, maybe another time.

                  The author never really defines moral behavior. He simply suggests that it might be like something we now call love. Also, there's every possibility that the author's works and real life, taken as a whole, describe the work-a-day world we all live in. Perhaps it was the harsh realities of the world which set him upon such an endeavor, to find solutions. But being a polemicist, that's not your ballywick, right?

                  Mary Jo

                  George Walton <iambiguously@...> wrote:
                  Mary,

                  Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100 years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the disease. So there is no question of "overthrowing" the global economy. At best you can work from within The System [and there really is one] to reform the most egregious and abusive policies.

                  And as soon as any political movement starts in on the Right behavior/Wrong behavior chant/rant, I completely dismiss them out of hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with human reality. Optimally, in my opinion, politics is about moderating the extremes, compromise, negociating and ceaselessly renegociating legislative [coercive] aggendas in the ebb and flow of political economy. And this only applies to social issues. When it comes down to fundamental economic and foreign policy issues, might always makes it right. Period. End of story.

                  As for what your average citizen believes about the nature of those fundamental economic and foreign issues it is, once again, to historical reality what a crack in the sidewalk is the the Grand Canyon. The gap is simply staggering.

                  Respecting conjectures about America becoming "fascist" that, in my view, will only happen if the crisis becomes extreme. And, if it does, it will have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with ideals or ethics!!! That is only what the ruling class will dispense through the media for public consuption; like they do now with Iraq. If this Cruz character actually believes morality and philosophy is what propels history along I've got a bridge to sell him. That is intellectual la la land.

                  When, for example, does he actually get around to ennumerating which behaviors are or are not "ethical"? And when does he get around to situating this moral behavior out in the real world where people hold jobs to raise kids and sustain families?

                  Once he got into the psycho-babble bullshit about love, I couldn't read anymore. However well intentioned [and he certainly projects that] this guy is an intellectual fruitcake, in my view. He lives in the delusional world where The Real Self [naturally/nobly Good of course] actually exists and has only been corrupted in being bought off by the trinkets and baubles of consumerism.

                  Would that it could be that simple, eh?

                  Biggie







                  Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
                  Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
                  you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo

                  "POWER

                  One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist must
                  cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
                  necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
                  idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
                  ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of Gandhi
                  and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
                  themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
                  inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there have
                  been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of all
                  humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
                  tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
                  western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
                  citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less and
                  less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
                  Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that they
                  are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
                  essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is an
                  adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
                  American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
                  idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
                  aspirations.

                  The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
                  been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
                  and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
                  as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
                  generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in the
                  defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
                  life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
                  aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist. Indeed
                  if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the level
                  of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
                  eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will be
                  ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new god.
                  Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire beyond
                  the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To paraphrase
                  Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking meters."
                  Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves of
                  the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
                  existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated by
                  gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
                  to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God imagining
                  allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
                  whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness came
                  to be.

                  If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
                  must become individually empowered. We must become individual forces
                  to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
                  manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
                  define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
                  human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us as
                  individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
                  imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
                  truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
                  unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of here,
                  we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
                  communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
                  another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
                  only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
                  imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
                  world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here is
                  only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
                  consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life. The
                  language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is the
                  known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What we
                  are individually aware of we sent out into the distance individually.
                  It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance. We
                  are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of us
                  have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
                  become individually empowered here we must master our own
                  imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
                  out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
                  know is only our expression of who we think they are."

                  By Trinidad Cruz




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                • Mary Jo Malo
                  Biggie, Yes, I do know him. He s a dear friend, and he is not a radical activist. He wrote a handful of essays on the subject of activism. He is not from the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 23, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Biggie,

                    Yes, I do know him. He's a dear friend, and he is not a radical
                    activist. He wrote a handful of essays on the subject of activism. He
                    is not from the typical middle class background you describe, and he
                    has suffered all the things whereof you speak. He has lived in the
                    real world for over 50 yrs. and if you knew the man, you wouldn't
                    have judged him so harshly. But then again, that is what you do.
                    Also, I don't feel that negotiating extremes into a legislative
                    agenda is a solution either, anymore than causes and activism. Let's
                    face it, there aren't any solutions. Ultimately, that's the reality
                    we have to live with. Nice try, though. Turn the page, you miserable
                    nihilist polemicist ;)

                    Mary Jo

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Mary Jo,
                    >
                    > I call 'em as I see him. Do you happen to know this guy? If so,
                    bring him in here [or provide an email address] and I will personally
                    make it quite clear to him just how preposterous his views are
                    respecting the real world.
                    >
                    > It's all psycho-babble with a heart of gold. Like the Green Party
                    folks. Gore, admittedly, ran the most pathetic presidential campaign
                    in the history of the universe and he was up against the reactionary
                    Dittoheads in the media, true; but that arrogantly self-righteous
                    Nader on his own little ego-trip gave us George Bush and John
                    Ashcroft and Karl Rove as far as I am concerned. He ought to be
                    ashamed of himself. And Cruz, I suspect, would fit right in with
                    that "we may not win but we are right" crowd. Only who is actually
                    suffering the policies of the reactionaries? Most of these radical
                    activists are students from middle class backgrounds. They aren't the
                    ones being downsized out of a job, they aren't the ones standing in
                    the soup lines, they aren't the ones who are victums of prejudice and
                    discrimination. How much, for example, has Ralph personally suffered
                    because of Bush's aggenda?
                    >
                    > I love 'em all to death as individuals and for nearly 15 years I
                    was one of them myself. But it is time to grow up [politically] and
                    work with the democrats to yank as much reform out of the system as
                    we can. All the rest is leftist la la land crap as far as I am
                    concerned.
                    >
                    > Biggie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                    > Biggie,
                    >
                    > I'm disappointed. You failed to surprise me. Oh well, maybe another
                    time.
                    >
                    > The author never really defines moral behavior. He simply suggests
                    that it might be like something we now call love. Also, there's every
                    possibility that the author's works and real life, taken as a whole,
                    describe the work-a-day world we all live in. Perhaps it was the
                    harsh realities of the world which set him upon such an endeavor, to
                    find solutions. But being a polemicist, that's not your ballywick,
                    right?
                    >
                    > Mary Jo
                    >
                    > George Walton <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
                    > Mary,
                    >
                    > Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100
                    years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the
                    disease. So there is no question of "overthrowing" the global
                    economy. At best you can work from within The System [and there
                    really is one] to reform the most egregious and abusive policies.
                    >
                    > And as soon as any political movement starts in on the Right
                    behavior/Wrong behavior chant/rant, I completely dismiss them out of
                    hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with human reality. Optimally,
                    in my opinion, politics is about moderating the extremes, compromise,
                    negociating and ceaselessly renegociating legislative [coercive]
                    aggendas in the ebb and flow of political economy. And this only
                    applies to social issues. When it comes down to fundamental economic
                    and foreign policy issues, might always makes it right. Period. End
                    of story.
                    >
                    > As for what your average citizen believes about the nature of those
                    fundamental economic and foreign issues it is, once again, to
                    historical reality what a crack in the sidewalk is the the Grand
                    Canyon. The gap is simply staggering.
                    >
                    > Respecting conjectures about America becoming "fascist" that, in my
                    view, will only happen if the crisis becomes extreme. And, if it
                    does, it will have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with ideals or
                    ethics!!! That is only what the ruling class will dispense through
                    the media for public consuption; like they do now with Iraq. If this
                    Cruz character actually believes morality and philosophy is what
                    propels history along I've got a bridge to sell him. That is
                    intellectual la la land.
                    >
                    > When, for example, does he actually get around to ennumerating
                    which behaviors are or are not "ethical"? And when does he get around
                    to situating this moral behavior out in the real world where people
                    hold jobs to raise kids and sustain families?
                    >
                    > Once he got into the psycho-babble bullshit about love, I couldn't
                    read anymore. However well intentioned [and he certainly projects
                    that] this guy is an intellectual fruitcake, in my view. He lives in
                    the delusional world where The Real Self [naturally/nobly Good of
                    course] actually exists and has only been corrupted in being bought
                    off by the trinkets and baubles of consumerism.
                    >
                    > Would that it could be that simple, eh?
                    >
                    > Biggie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                    > Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
                    > you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo
                    >
                    > "POWER
                    >
                    > One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist
                    must
                    > cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
                    > necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
                    > idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
                    > ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of
                    Gandhi
                    > and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
                    > themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
                    > inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there
                    have
                    > been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of
                    all
                    > humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
                    > tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
                    > western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
                    > citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less
                    and
                    > less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
                    > Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
                    they
                    > are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
                    > essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is
                    an
                    > adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
                    > American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
                    > idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
                    > aspirations.
                    >
                    > The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
                    > been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
                    > and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
                    > as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
                    > generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in
                    the
                    > defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
                    > life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
                    > aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist.
                    Indeed
                    > if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the
                    level
                    > of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
                    > eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will
                    be
                    > ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new
                    god.
                    > Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire
                    beyond
                    > the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To
                    paraphrase
                    > Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking
                    meters."
                    > Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves
                    of
                    > the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
                    > existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated
                    by
                    > gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
                    > to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God
                    imagining
                    > allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
                    > whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness
                    came
                    > to be.
                    >
                    > If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
                    > must become individually empowered. We must become individual
                    forces
                    > to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
                    > manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
                    > define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
                    > human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us
                    as
                    > individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
                    > imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
                    > truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
                    > unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of
                    here,
                    > we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
                    > communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
                    > another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
                    > only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
                    > imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
                    > world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here
                    is
                    > only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
                    > consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life.
                    The
                    > language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is
                    the
                    > known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What
                    we
                    > are individually aware of we sent out into the distance
                    individually.
                    > It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance.
                    We
                    > are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of
                    us
                    > have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
                    > become individually empowered here we must master our own
                    > imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
                    > out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
                    > know is only our expression of who we think they are."
                    >
                    > By Trinidad Cruz
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • George Walton
                    I did not judge him. I judged his ideas. Some folks don t make a big distinction between that. I do. Mary Jo Malo wrote:Biggie, Yes, I do
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 24, 2003
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                      I did not judge him. I judged his ideas. Some folks don't make a big distinction between that. I do.

                      Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:Biggie,

                      Yes, I do know him. He's a dear friend, and he is not a radical
                      activist. He wrote a handful of essays on the subject of activism. He
                      is not from the typical middle class background you describe, and he
                      has suffered all the things whereof you speak. He has lived in the
                      real world for over 50 yrs. and if you knew the man, you wouldn't
                      have judged him so harshly. But then again, that is what you do.
                      Also, I don't feel that negotiating extremes into a legislative
                      agenda is a solution either, anymore than causes and activism. Let's
                      face it, there aren't any solutions. Ultimately, that's the reality
                      we have to live with. Nice try, though. Turn the page, you miserable
                      nihilist polemicist ;)

                      Mary Jo

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Mary Jo,
                      >
                      > I call 'em as I see him. Do you happen to know this guy? If so,
                      bring him in here [or provide an email address] and I will personally
                      make it quite clear to him just how preposterous his views are
                      respecting the real world.
                      >
                      > It's all psycho-babble with a heart of gold. Like the Green Party
                      folks. Gore, admittedly, ran the most pathetic presidential campaign
                      in the history of the universe and he was up against the reactionary
                      Dittoheads in the media, true; but that arrogantly self-righteous
                      Nader on his own little ego-trip gave us George Bush and John
                      Ashcroft and Karl Rove as far as I am concerned. He ought to be
                      ashamed of himself. And Cruz, I suspect, would fit right in with
                      that "we may not win but we are right" crowd. Only who is actually
                      suffering the policies of the reactionaries? Most of these radical
                      activists are students from middle class backgrounds. They aren't the
                      ones being downsized out of a job, they aren't the ones standing in
                      the soup lines, they aren't the ones who are victums of prejudice and
                      discrimination. How much, for example, has Ralph personally suffered
                      because of Bush's aggenda?
                      >
                      > I love 'em all to death as individuals and for nearly 15 years I
                      was one of them myself. But it is time to grow up [politically] and
                      work with the democrats to yank as much reform out of the system as
                      we can. All the rest is leftist la la land crap as far as I am
                      concerned.
                      >
                      > Biggie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                      > Biggie,
                      >
                      > I'm disappointed. You failed to surprise me. Oh well, maybe another
                      time.
                      >
                      > The author never really defines moral behavior. He simply suggests
                      that it might be like something we now call love. Also, there's every
                      possibility that the author's works and real life, taken as a whole,
                      describe the work-a-day world we all live in. Perhaps it was the
                      harsh realities of the world which set him upon such an endeavor, to
                      find solutions. But being a polemicist, that's not your ballywick,
                      right?
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > George Walton <iambiguously@y...> wrote:
                      > Mary,
                      >
                      > Revolutionary political movements in this day and age [the past 100
                      years] are almost always the cure that is worse [much worse] than the
                      disease. So there is no question of "overthrowing" the global
                      economy. At best you can work from within The System [and there
                      really is one] to reform the most egregious and abusive policies.
                      >
                      > And as soon as any political movement starts in on the Right
                      behavior/Wrong behavior chant/rant, I completely dismiss them out of
                      hand. It has absolutely nothing to do with human reality. Optimally,
                      in my opinion, politics is about moderating the extremes, compromise,
                      negociating and ceaselessly renegociating legislative [coercive]
                      aggendas in the ebb and flow of political economy. And this only
                      applies to social issues. When it comes down to fundamental economic
                      and foreign policy issues, might always makes it right. Period. End
                      of story.
                      >
                      > As for what your average citizen believes about the nature of those
                      fundamental economic and foreign issues it is, once again, to
                      historical reality what a crack in the sidewalk is the the Grand
                      Canyon. The gap is simply staggering.
                      >
                      > Respecting conjectures about America becoming "fascist" that, in my
                      view, will only happen if the crisis becomes extreme. And, if it
                      does, it will have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with ideals or
                      ethics!!! That is only what the ruling class will dispense through
                      the media for public consuption; like they do now with Iraq. If this
                      Cruz character actually believes morality and philosophy is what
                      propels history along I've got a bridge to sell him. That is
                      intellectual la la land.
                      >
                      > When, for example, does he actually get around to ennumerating
                      which behaviors are or are not "ethical"? And when does he get around
                      to situating this moral behavior out in the real world where people
                      hold jobs to raise kids and sustain families?
                      >
                      > Once he got into the psycho-babble bullshit about love, I couldn't
                      read anymore. However well intentioned [and he certainly projects
                      that] this guy is an intellectual fruitcake, in my view. He lives in
                      the delusional world where The Real Self [naturally/nobly Good of
                      course] actually exists and has only been corrupted in being bought
                      off by the trinkets and baubles of consumerism.
                      >
                      > Would that it could be that simple, eh?
                      >
                      > Biggie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                      > Oh heck, Biggie, here's something for you to pick apart. I think
                      > you'll find some things with which to agree. Surprise me. Mary Jo
                      >
                      > "POWER
                      >
                      > One of the most difficult and delicate dynamics that an activist
                      must
                      > cope with is the ethical generation and handling of the apparently
                      > necessary power to achieve the purpose of the establishment of
                      > idealistic and ethical change. Most of the successful campaigns for
                      > ethical causes in recent history have employed the tactics of
                      Gandhi
                      > and Tolstoy, i.e. finding and convincing enough bodies to throw
                      > themselves into the gears of the machine of oppression to slow or
                      > inconvenience its relentless forward progress. To be sure there
                      have
                      > been some stunning successes that have raised the aspirations of
                      all
                      > humanity, but we are entering an age in western history where such
                      > tactics will no longer be effective. The oppression machine in
                      > western civilization now generates comfort for millions of its
                      > citizens and their addiction to that comfort will make them less
                      and
                      > less likely to bite the hand that feeds them as time goes by.
                      > Furthermore the vast majority of American citizens believe that
                      they
                      > are already activists for freedom in a global community that is
                      > essentially not free, and many believe that just being American is
                      an
                      > adequate personal statement for ethics and justice. The average
                      > American citizen is fundamentally intoxicated with his or her
                      > idealistic success, and cannot be readily motivated to higher
                      > aspirations.
                      >
                      > The essential problem with strength in numbers tactics has always
                      > been the same. What if the ideal is wrong to begin with i.e. Nazism
                      > and communism? Strength in numbers is the tactic of fascism as well
                      > as idealistic ethical activism. The average American citizen is
                      > generally disenchanted with strength in numbers protest except in
                      the
                      > defense of the ongoing comfort machine that is American everyday
                      > life. If America does not soon raise its ethical and idealistic
                      > aspirations it will go down in true human history as fascist.
                      Indeed
                      > if the entire global community is eventually "liberated" to the
                      level
                      > of present day America and hunger and war and even disease are
                      > eradicated the intellectual potential of human consciousness will
                      be
                      > ruined permanently. The comfort machine will become a shiny new
                      god.
                      > Without a proven existential baseline humanity will not aspire
                      beyond
                      > the level of its imagined gods. We will all stop there. To
                      paraphrase
                      > Dylan, "we won't follow leaders and we'll watch our parking
                      meters."
                      > Essentially we came up with the idea of gods to relieve ourselves
                      of
                      > the responsibility of remembering and defining our personal
                      > existential baseline. If we believe we have been made or generated
                      by
                      > gods, they then become our existential baseline, and we expect them
                      > to take up the responsibility of our quest for meaning. God
                      imagining
                      > allows us to get on with our pursuit of comfort here and wait for
                      > whatever god we have imagined to reveal how human consciousness
                      came
                      > to be.
                      >
                      > If we are to remain activists for ethical change in the future we
                      > must become individually empowered. We must become individual
                      forces
                      > to be reckoned with. The chains that bind us here are entirely
                      > manufactured by our own imagination. Each of us must discover and
                      > define our own individual genesis. Knowing the proven beginning of
                      > human consciousness would allow us to discover the power within us
                      as
                      > individual consciousnesses to be responsible for everything we
                      > imagine. To propose that love is the answer is not far from the
                      > truth. The old axiom has been long misunderstood. If we
                      > unconditionally love everything that we are able to be aware of
                      here,
                      > we are loving what we have imagined in an attempt to form lasting
                      > communication with another consciousness. We are seeking to love
                      > another and be loved by another in a relative system where we can
                      > only experience loving ourselves and a form of ourselves that we
                      > imagine another might be. As an individual consciousness in this
                      > world I am certain that everything I can possibly be aware of here
                      is
                      > only my way of attempting to translate the language of another
                      > consciousness and to speak back and be recognized as proven life.
                      The
                      > language we are attempting to communicate with to one another is
                      the
                      > known human experienced universe we imagine out of ourselves. What
                      we
                      > are individually aware of we sent out into the distance
                      individually.
                      > It is all infinite individual questions spoken into the distance.
                      We
                      > are all each a distance that another speaks into. When any two of
                      us
                      > have the same meaning for the same word it is communication. To
                      > become individually empowered here we must master our own
                      > imagination. We must gain control over what we imagine and manifest
                      > out of ourselves as a revelation of others around us. Everyone we
                      > know is only our expression of who we think they are."
                      >
                      > By Trinidad Cruz
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Mattlzpf@aol.com
                      In a message dated 10/30/2003 9:43:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... It is somewhat vexing, yes. However, I don t think it is a process of nihilism (which is
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 4, 2003
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                        In a message dated 10/30/2003 9:43:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                        bjunius30@... writes:


                        > Is it any wonder, that we have such brutal killers in our midst, and
                        > why we would secretly revel in their morbid rebellion?



                        It is somewhat vexing, yes. However, I don't think it is a process of
                        nihilism (which is also not socially instituted).

                        --MATT_C


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