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Re: [existlist] Digest Number 1578

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  • Thiraviyam Ganesan
    Dear George , You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say ... a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable democratic
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 29, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear George ,

      You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
      > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
      a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
      democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
      For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
      >
      My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
      as you have said
      > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
      smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
      others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
      And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
      enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
      the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
      >
      I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
      Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

      GT
      existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
      From: "drQ"


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
      From: "drQ"
      Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

      What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
      fish!? is that all there is?
      Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
      private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
      aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

      This comes to my mind:

      Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

      NOTHING has changed.
      The body is a reservoir of pain,
      it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
      it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
      it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
      its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
      In tortures, all of this is considered.

      Nothing has changed.
      The body still trembles as it trembled
      before Rome was founded and after,
      in twentieth century before and after Christ;
      tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
      and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

      Nothing has changed.
      Except there are more people,
      and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
      real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
      but the cry with which the body answers for them
      was, is, will be a cry of innocence
      in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ------------------------
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George Walton
      To:
      Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
      anything


      > GT,
      >
      > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
      right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
      foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
      the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
      chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
      acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
      Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
      heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
      folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
      about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
      to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
      >
      > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
      a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
      democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
      For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
      >
      > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
      smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
      others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
      And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
      enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
      the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
      >
      > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
      feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
      and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
      depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
      >
      > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
      all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
      human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
      because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
      >
      > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
      course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
      incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
      again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
      and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
      system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
      egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
      reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
      construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
      more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
      wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
      >
      > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
      Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
      of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
      that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
      merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
      system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
      ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
      and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
      a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
      American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
      >
      >
      > Biggie
      >
      > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
      >
      > Dear People,
      >
      >
      >
      > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
      starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
      what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
      shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
      good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
      Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
      supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
      When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
      bureaucracy.
      >
      > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
      conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
      which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
      the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
      , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
      maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
      >
      > GT
      >


      G Ravi

      ---------------------------------
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George Walton
      TG, I spent many years in various radical political organizations right here in the belly of the capitalist beast---the US of A. We accomplished much, I
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        TG,

        I spent many years in various radical political organizations right here in the belly of the capitalist beast---the US of A. We accomplished much, I believe, so I would never say that, for those who wish to make changes in what can be a brutally exploitative and oppressive world, they are wasting their time. My point, instead, is that reforming the system, going after the most egregious and outrageous suffering, is doable---trying to tear the system doing and putting up "socialsm" or "communism" in its place is a pipedream. And a very dangerous one at that. Capitalism is more conducive to political and individual liberties. Yet, I can also understand that, from your own perspective, in the belly of the 3rd World beast, the brunt of the exploitation and oppression is very different from how I perceive it in the West. Still, I can only reflect honestly on what I have, myself, experienced or read or thought about. And, in that respect, I am always back to Churchill's conjecture tha
        capitalism is the worst economic system---except for all the others. That is, of course, a brutally pessimistic assessment. But it is what I believe.

        I am, philosophically, a grueling pessimist. I like telling folks I make Shopenhauer appear to be Martha Stewart. There is the way you wish the world to be and there is the way the world really is.

        I cite human history to date as my points of reference.

        Biggie



        Thiraviyam Ganesan <thiraviyamg@...> wrote:
        Dear George ,

        You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
        > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
        a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
        democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
        For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
        >
        My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
        as you have said
        > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
        smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
        others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
        And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
        enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
        the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
        >
        I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
        Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

        GT
        existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
        From: "drQ"


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 1
        Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
        From: "drQ"
        Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

        What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
        fish!? is that all there is?
        Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
        private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
        aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

        This comes to my mind:

        Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

        NOTHING has changed.
        The body is a reservoir of pain,
        it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
        it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
        it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
        its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
        In tortures, all of this is considered.

        Nothing has changed.
        The body still trembles as it trembled
        before Rome was founded and after,
        in twentieth century before and after Christ;
        tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
        and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

        Nothing has changed.
        Except there are more people,
        and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
        real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
        but the cry with which the body answers for them
        was, is, will be a cry of innocence
        in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        ------------------------
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: George Walton
        To:
        Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
        anything


        > GT,
        >
        > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
        right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
        foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
        the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
        chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
        acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
        Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
        heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
        folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
        about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
        to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
        >
        > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
        a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
        democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
        For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
        >
        > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
        smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
        others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
        And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
        enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
        the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
        >
        > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
        feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
        and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
        depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
        >
        > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
        all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
        human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
        because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
        >
        > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
        course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
        incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
        again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
        and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
        system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
        egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
        reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
        construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
        more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
        wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
        >
        > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
        Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
        of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
        that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
        merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
        system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
        ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
        and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
        a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
        American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
        >
        >
        > Biggie
        >
        > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
        >
        > Dear People,
        >
        >
        >
        > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
        starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
        what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
        shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
        good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
        Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
        supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
        When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
        bureaucracy.
        >
        > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
        conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
        which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
        the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
        , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
        maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
        >
        > GT
        >


        G Ravi

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Mary Jo Malo
        GT, I m with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          GT,

          I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

          Mary Jo

          "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
          Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

          GT


          Thiraviyam Ganesan <thiraviyamg@...> wrote:Dear George ,

          You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
          > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
          a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
          democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
          For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
          >
          My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
          as you have said
          > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
          smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
          others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
          And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
          enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
          the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
          >
          I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
          Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

          GT
          existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
          From: "drQ"


          ________________________________________________________________________
          ________________________________________________________________________

          Message: 1
          Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
          From: "drQ"
          Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

          What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
          fish!? is that all there is?
          Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
          private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
          aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

          This comes to my mind:

          Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

          NOTHING has changed.
          The body is a reservoir of pain,
          it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
          it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
          it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
          its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
          In tortures, all of this is considered.

          Nothing has changed.
          The body still trembles as it trembled
          before Rome was founded and after,
          in twentieth century before and after Christ;
          tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
          and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

          Nothing has changed.
          Except there are more people,
          and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
          real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
          but the cry with which the body answers for them
          was, is, will be a cry of innocence
          in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------------------------
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George Walton
          To:
          Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
          anything


          > GT,
          >
          > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
          right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
          foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
          the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
          chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
          acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
          Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
          heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
          folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
          about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
          to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
          >
          > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
          a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
          democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
          For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
          >
          > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
          smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
          others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
          And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
          enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
          the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
          >
          > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
          feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
          and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
          depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
          >
          > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
          all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
          human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
          because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
          >
          > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
          course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
          incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
          again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
          and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
          system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
          egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
          reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
          construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
          more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
          wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
          >
          > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
          Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
          of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
          that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
          merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
          system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
          ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
          and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
          a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
          American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
          >
          >
          > Biggie
          >
          > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
          >
          > Dear People,
          >
          >
          >
          > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
          starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
          what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
          shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
          good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
          Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
          supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
          When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
          bureaucracy.
          >
          > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
          conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
          which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
          the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
          , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
          maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
          >
          > GT
          >


          G Ravi

          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

          TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




          ---------------------------------
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          The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George Walton
          Mary Jo, Ah, of course, the sublime path of enlightenment . There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates,
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Mary Jo,

            Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"

            Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you, perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.

            Biggie




            GT,

            I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

            Mary Jo

            "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
            Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

            GT


            Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,

            You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
            > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
            a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
            democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
            For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
            >
            My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
            as you have said
            > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
            smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
            others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
            And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
            enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
            the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
            >
            I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
            Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

            GT
            existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
            1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
            From: "drQ"


            ________________________________________________________________________
            ________________________________________________________________________

            Message: 1
            Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
            From: "drQ"
            Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

            What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
            fish!? is that all there is?
            Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
            private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
            aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

            This comes to my mind:

            Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

            NOTHING has changed.
            The body is a reservoir of pain,
            it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
            it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
            it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
            its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
            In tortures, all of this is considered.

            Nothing has changed.
            The body still trembles as it trembled
            before Rome was founded and after,
            in twentieth century before and after Christ;
            tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
            and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

            Nothing has changed.
            Except there are more people,
            and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
            real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
            but the cry with which the body answers for them
            was, is, will be a cry of innocence
            in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ------------------------
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: George Walton
            To:
            Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
            anything


            > GT,
            >
            > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
            right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
            foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
            the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
            chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
            acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
            Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
            heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
            folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
            about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
            to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
            >
            > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
            a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
            democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
            For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
            >
            > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
            smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
            others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
            And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
            enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
            the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
            >
            > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
            feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
            and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
            depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
            >
            > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
            all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
            human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
            because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
            >
            > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
            course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
            incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
            again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
            and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
            system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
            egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
            reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
            construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
            more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
            wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
            >
            > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
            Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
            of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
            that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
            merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
            system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
            ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
            and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
            a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
            American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
            >
            >
            > Biggie
            >
            > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
            >
            > Dear People,
            >
            >
            >
            > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
            starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
            what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
            shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
            good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
            Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
            supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
            When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
            bureaucracy.
            >
            > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
            conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
            which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
            the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
            , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
            maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
            >
            > GT
            >


            G Ravi

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          • Mary Jo Malo
            Hey Biggie, If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a pastry. Enlightenment is a generic expression, just like nothing . Some people
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Hey Biggie,

              If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing". Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the frustrated adolescent you are.
              By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and rotting.
              Jo

              George Walton <iambiguously@...> wrote:
              Mary Jo,

              Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"

              Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you, perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.

              Biggie




              GT,

              I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

              Mary Jo

              "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
              Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

              GT


              Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,

              You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
              > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
              a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
              democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
              For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
              >
              My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
              as you have said
              > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
              smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
              others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
              And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
              enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
              the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
              >
              I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
              Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

              GT
              existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
              From: "drQ"


              ________________________________________________________________________
              ________________________________________________________________________

              Message: 1
              Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
              From: "drQ"
              Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

              What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
              fish!? is that all there is?
              Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
              private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
              aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

              This comes to my mind:

              Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

              NOTHING has changed.
              The body is a reservoir of pain,
              it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
              it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
              it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
              its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
              In tortures, all of this is considered.

              Nothing has changed.
              The body still trembles as it trembled
              before Rome was founded and after,
              in twentieth century before and after Christ;
              tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
              and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

              Nothing has changed.
              Except there are more people,
              and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
              real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
              but the cry with which the body answers for them
              was, is, will be a cry of innocence
              in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              ------------------------
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: George Walton
              To:
              Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
              anything


              > GT,
              >
              > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
              right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
              foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
              the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
              chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
              acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
              Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
              heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
              folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
              about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
              to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
              >
              > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
              a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
              democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
              For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
              >
              > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
              smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
              others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
              And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
              enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
              the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
              >
              > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
              feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
              and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
              depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
              >
              > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
              all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
              human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
              because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
              >
              > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
              course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
              incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
              again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
              and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
              system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
              egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
              reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
              construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
              more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
              wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
              >
              > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
              Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
              of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
              that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
              merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
              system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
              ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
              and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
              a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
              American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
              >
              >
              > Biggie
              >
              > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
              >
              > Dear People,
              >
              >
              >
              > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
              starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
              what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
              shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
              good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
              Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
              supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
              When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
              bureaucracy.
              >
              > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
              conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
              which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
              the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
              , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
              maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
              >
              > GT
              >


              G Ravi

              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • George Walton
              Mary Jo, One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the next day...well...if words could kill? You do not understand human language the
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Mary Jo,

                One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the next day...well...if words could kill?

                You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like the Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points out that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated in the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.

                We are all the center of it, eh?

                Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a so much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?



                Biggie

                Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
                Hey Biggie,

                If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing". Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the frustrated adolescent you are.
                By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and rotting.
                Jo

                George Walton wrote:
                Mary Jo,

                Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"

                Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you, perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.

                Biggie




                GT,

                I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

                Mary Jo

                "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

                GT


                Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,

                You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                >
                My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
                as you have said
                > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                >
                I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

                GT
                existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
                From: "drQ"


                ________________________________________________________________________
                ________________________________________________________________________

                Message: 1
                Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                From: "drQ"
                Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

                What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
                fish!? is that all there is?
                Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
                private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
                aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

                This comes to my mind:

                Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

                NOTHING has changed.
                The body is a reservoir of pain,
                it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                In tortures, all of this is considered.

                Nothing has changed.
                The body still trembles as it trembled
                before Rome was founded and after,
                in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

                Nothing has changed.
                Except there are more people,
                and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                but the cry with which the body answers for them
                was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                ------------------------
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: George Walton
                To:
                Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
                anything


                > GT,
                >
                > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
                right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
                foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
                the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
                chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
                acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
                Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
                heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
                folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
                about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
                to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                >
                > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                >
                > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                >
                > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
                feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
                and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
                depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                >
                > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
                all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
                human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
                because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                >
                > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
                course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
                incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
                again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
                and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
                system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
                egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
                reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
                construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
                more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
                wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                >
                > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
                of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
                that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
                merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
                system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
                ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
                and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
                a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
                American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
                >
                >
                > Biggie
                >
                > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                >
                > Dear People,
                >
                >
                >
                > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
                starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
                what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
                good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
                supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
                When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
                bureaucracy.
                >
                > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
                conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
                which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
                the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
                , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
                maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
                >
                > GT
                >


                G Ravi

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              • Mary Jo Malo
                Biggie, Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand more about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you espouse, but I will
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Biggie,

                  Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand more about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you espouse, but I will never embrace stagnation and indecisiveness when that appears to be the case. The most important consequence of relativity is discovering our individual reality to the universe. I believe with all my heart and mind that our observation point is somehow inverted. Our relativity to it needs to be either restored or discovered. We are so individual that we presently can't use any common language to communicate. You're just stubborn and don't want to admit that there's anything else to discover. Life is absurb. What's even more absurd is that you and I are trying to tell each other something. You are unique. Tell me something.

                  Mary Jo

                  George Walton <iambiguously@...> wrote:
                  Mary Jo,

                  One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the next day...well...if words could kill? Einstein in right about relativity, observation, and the center of the universe. But alas, he also thought god didn't play dice. No one is right about everything.

                  You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like the Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points out that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated in the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.

                  We are all the center of it, eh?

                  Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a so much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?



                  Biggie

                  Mary Jo Malo wrote:
                  Hey Biggie,

                  If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing". Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the frustrated adolescent you are.
                  By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and rotting.
                  Jo

                  George Walton wrote:
                  Mary Jo,

                  Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"

                  Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you, perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.

                  Biggie




                  GT,

                  I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

                  Mary Jo

                  "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                  Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

                  GT


                  Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,

                  You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                  > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                  a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                  democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                  For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                  >
                  My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
                  as you have said
                  > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                  smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                  others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                  And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                  enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                  the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                  >
                  I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                  Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

                  GT
                  existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                  1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
                  From: "drQ"


                  ________________________________________________________________________
                  ________________________________________________________________________

                  Message: 1
                  Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                  From: "drQ"
                  Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

                  What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
                  fish!? is that all there is?
                  Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
                  private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
                  aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

                  This comes to my mind:

                  Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

                  NOTHING has changed.
                  The body is a reservoir of pain,
                  it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                  it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                  it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                  its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                  In tortures, all of this is considered.

                  Nothing has changed.
                  The body still trembles as it trembled
                  before Rome was founded and after,
                  in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                  tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                  and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

                  Nothing has changed.
                  Except there are more people,
                  and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                  real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                  but the cry with which the body answers for them
                  was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                  in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ------------------------
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: George Walton
                  To:
                  Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
                  anything


                  > GT,
                  >
                  > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
                  right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
                  foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
                  the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
                  chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
                  acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
                  Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
                  heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
                  folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
                  about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
                  to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                  >
                  > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                  a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                  democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                  For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                  >
                  > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                  smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                  others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                  And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                  enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                  the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                  >
                  > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
                  feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
                  and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
                  depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                  >
                  > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
                  all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
                  human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
                  because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                  >
                  > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
                  course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
                  incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
                  again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
                  and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
                  system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
                  egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
                  reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
                  construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
                  more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
                  wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                  >
                  > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                  Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
                  of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
                  that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
                  merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
                  system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
                  ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
                  and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
                  a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
                  American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
                  >
                  >
                  > Biggie
                  >
                  > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear People,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
                  starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
                  what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                  shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
                  good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                  Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
                  supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
                  When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
                  bureaucracy.
                  >
                  > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
                  conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
                  which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
                  the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
                  , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
                  maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
                  >
                  > GT
                  >


                  G Ravi

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                • George Walton
                  Mary Jo, Acknowledging that one is, indeed, condemned to be free does not give one a license to imagine one can, in turn, choose wisely . You, again, speak
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Mary Jo,

                    Acknowledging that one is, indeed, "condemned to be free" does not give one a license to imagine one can, in turn, "choose wisely".

                    You, again, speak of "indvidual reality" as though this were not just an existential illusion, by and large.

                    Now, I do not construe this to be as you seem to construe it at all. Which does not make my way more "rational" than yours. To suggest that would be to exclude myself from my own philosophy. And I am, at least, "wise" enough not to do that, right?

                    The first clue as to how clueless you are about the "nature" of human communication is that you still use an expression like "from the bottom of my heart". I suspect, perhaps, that was not merely a figure of speech?

                    Just out of curiosity, what sort of experiences have you had thus far in life? I am one who firmly believes the wisest of the wise search for meaning at the intersection of introspection and experience. One without the other is particularly futile, eh?

                    I just don't pursue either one...well...wisely. Meaning this point of view is, ironically, just a figure of speech. And yet expressed "in the moment" with great passion. Meaning from the bottom of my heart.

                    I have no doubt about that at all, you might say.

                    You think, perhaps, I am just fucking with your head. Playing games and such. But I am not. I am trying to give you a window inside the world as I have come to understand it by talking about it the way I think I do understand it: in pieces. I am, perhaps, the most fragmented, broken man you will probably ever come across.

                    I am rare specimen, indeed.

                    Biggie

                    Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
                    Biggie,

                    Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand more about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you espouse, but I will never embrace stagnation and indecisiveness when that appears to be the case. The most important consequence of relativity is discovering our individual reality to the universe. I believe with all my heart and mind that our observation point is somehow inverted. Our relativity to it needs to be either restored or discovered. We are so individual that we presently can't use any common language to communicate. You're just stubborn and don't want to admit that there's anything else to discover. Life is absurb. What's even more absurd is that you and I are trying to tell each other something. You are unique. Tell me something.

                    Mary Jo

                    George Walton wrote:
                    Mary Jo,

                    One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the next day...well...if words could kill? Einstein in right about relativity, observation, and the center of the universe. But alas, he also thought god didn't play dice. No one is right about everything.

                    You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like the Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points out that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated in the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.

                    We are all the center of it, eh?

                    Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a so much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?



                    Biggie

                    Mary Jo Malo wrote:
                    Hey Biggie,

                    If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing". Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the frustrated adolescent you are.
                    By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and rotting.
                    Jo

                    George Walton wrote:
                    Mary Jo,

                    Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"

                    Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you, perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.

                    Biggie




                    GT,

                    I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.

                    Mary Jo

                    "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                    Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage."

                    GT


                    Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,

                    You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                    > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                    a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                    democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                    For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                    >
                    My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my social interaction along with my thinking.
                    as you have said
                    > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                    smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                    others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                    And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                    enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                    the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                    >
                    I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                    Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities fills me with outrage.

                    GT
                    existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                    1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)
                    From: "drQ"


                    ________________________________________________________________________
                    ________________________________________________________________________

                    Message: 1
                    Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                    From: "drQ"
                    Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything(tortures)

                    What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating small
                    fish!? is that all there is?
                    Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to civilization and
                    private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
                    aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!

                    This comes to my mind:

                    Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)

                    NOTHING has changed.
                    The body is a reservoir of pain,
                    it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                    it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                    it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                    its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                    In tortures, all of this is considered.

                    Nothing has changed.
                    The body still trembles as it trembled
                    before Rome was founded and after,
                    in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                    tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                    and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.

                    Nothing has changed.
                    Except there are more people,
                    and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                    real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                    but the cry with which the body answers for them
                    was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                    in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ------------------------
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: George Walton
                    To:
                    Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it
                    anything


                    > GT,
                    >
                    > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global economy"] is
                    right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind American
                    foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to assure that
                    the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the biggest
                    chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this by
                    acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the planet:
                    Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts scratch their
                    heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third World
                    folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant lumbering
                    about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human rights
                    to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                    >
                    > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India would be
                    a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a veritable
                    democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling class, right?
                    For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                    >
                    > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks who are
                    smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever than
                    others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and economic power.
                    And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase the best
                    enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass this down to
                    the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                    >
                    > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the outrage you
                    feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and caring
                    and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the sheer
                    depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                    >
                    > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if that is
                    all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it? Instead, the
                    human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that way
                    because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                    >
                    > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that? Of
                    course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words, you are
                    incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them are,
                    again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and the guns
                    and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within the
                    system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about the most
                    egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down and
                    reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you have
                    construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally contended,
                    more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I mean, who
                    wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                    >
                    > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                    Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the distribution
                    of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic realities
                    that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like Jefferson were
                    merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free enterpise
                    system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you were to
                    ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and laborers
                    and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would give you
                    a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line" that most
                    American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very day.
                    >
                    >
                    > Biggie
                    >
                    > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear People,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing philososophy
                    starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do you know
                    what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                    shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are lazy ,miserable
                    good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                    Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism and
                    supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ). Frankly
                    When you are starving, it doesn�t matter whether you stand for free trade or
                    bureaucracy.
                    >
                    > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that the
                    conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be totally free
                    which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I cannot like
                    the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I loath the US
                    , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a society
                    maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower eating lotus.
                    >
                    > GT
                    >


                    G Ravi

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                  • Mary Jo Malo
                    Biggie, Where or what is the point at which our individual perspectives and similar and different sufferings in this life can merge in a moment of real
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 30, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Biggie,

                      Where or what is the point at which our individual perspectives and
                      similar and different sufferings in this life can merge in a moment
                      of real communication? We can't ever really share our personal
                      experiences, since we can't really feel or see what the other person
                      is experiencing. It's only through honest and "heartfelt" words that
                      we can even begin. I make peace with you now, but I can't really know
                      you, except as another human being carefully measuring his response
                      in front of this discussion group. Just don't tell me anymore that I
                      can't hope, and I won't tell that you should.

                      Peace,
                      Mary Jo

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Mary Jo,
                      >
                      > Acknowledging that one is, indeed, "condemned to be free" does not
                      give one a license to imagine one can, in turn, "choose wisely".
                      >
                      > You, again, speak of "indvidual reality" as though this were not
                      just an existential illusion, by and large.
                      >
                      > Now, I do not construe this to be as you seem to construe it at
                      all. Which does not make my way more "rational" than yours. To
                      suggest that would be to exclude myself from my own philosophy. And I
                      am, at least, "wise" enough not to do that, right?
                      >
                      > The first clue as to how clueless you are about the "nature" of
                      human communication is that you still use an expression like "from
                      the bottom of my heart". I suspect, perhaps, that was not merely a
                      figure of speech?
                      >
                      > Just out of curiosity, what sort of experiences have you had thus
                      far in life? I am one who firmly believes the wisest of the wise
                      search for meaning at the intersection of introspection and
                      experience. One without the other is particularly futile, eh?
                      >
                      > I just don't pursue either one...well...wisely. Meaning this point
                      of view is, ironically, just a figure of speech. And yet
                      expressed "in the moment" with great passion. Meaning from the bottom
                      of my heart.
                      >
                      > I have no doubt about that at all, you might say.
                      >
                      > You think, perhaps, I am just fucking with your head. Playing games
                      and such. But I am not. I am trying to give you a window inside the
                      world as I have come to understand it by talking about it the way I
                      think I do understand it: in pieces. I am, perhaps, the most
                      fragmented, broken man you will probably ever come across.
                      >
                      > I am rare specimen, indeed.
                      >
                      > Biggie
                      >
                      > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                      > Biggie,
                      >
                      > Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand more
                      about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you
                      espouse, but I will never embrace stagnation and indecisiveness when
                      that appears to be the case. The most important consequence of
                      relativity is discovering our individual reality to the universe. I
                      believe with all my heart and mind that our observation point is
                      somehow inverted. Our relativity to it needs to be either restored or
                      discovered. We are so individual that we presently can't use any
                      common language to communicate. You're just stubborn and don't want
                      to admit that there's anything else to discover. Life is absurb.
                      What's even more absurd is that you and I are trying to tell each
                      other something. You are unique. Tell me something.
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > George Walton wrote:
                      > Mary Jo,
                      >
                      > One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the
                      next day...well...if words could kill? Einstein in right about
                      relativity, observation, and the center of the universe. But alas, he
                      also thought god didn't play dice. No one is right about everything.
                      >
                      > You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like the
                      Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to
                      situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more
                      enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points out
                      that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to
                      another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated in
                      the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.
                      >
                      > We are all the center of it, eh?
                      >
                      > Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a so
                      much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Biggie
                      >
                      > Mary Jo Malo wrote:
                      > Hey Biggie,
                      >
                      > If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a
                      pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing".
                      Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with
                      conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and
                      convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the
                      frustrated adolescent you are.
                      > By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and
                      rotting.
                      > Jo
                      >
                      > George Walton wrote:
                      > Mary Jo,
                      >
                      > Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been
                      so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of
                      the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having
                      being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"
                      >
                      > Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you,
                      perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my
                      fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.
                      >
                      > Biggie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > GT,
                      >
                      > I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a
                      permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary
                      stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to
                      stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.
                      >
                      > Mary Jo
                      >
                      > "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I
                      am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of
                      Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a
                      man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                      > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                      fills me with outrage."
                      >
                      > GT
                      >
                      >
                      > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,
                      >
                      > You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                      > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India
                      would be
                      > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                      veritable
                      > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                      class, right?
                      > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                      > >
                      > My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is
                      primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of
                      bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that
                      what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to
                      differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my
                      social interaction along with my thinking.
                      > as you have said
                      > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                      who are
                      > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                      than
                      > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                      economic power.
                      > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase
                      the best
                      > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                      this down to
                      > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                      > >
                      > I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am
                      loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The
                      struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart.
                      We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                      > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                      fills me with outrage.
                      >
                      > GT
                      > existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                      > 1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                      (tortures)
                      > From: "drQ"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      __
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      __
                      >
                      > Message: 1
                      > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                      > From: "drQ"
                      > Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                      (tortures)
                      >
                      > What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating
                      small
                      > fish!? is that all there is?
                      > Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to
                      civilization and
                      > private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
                      > aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!
                      >
                      > This comes to my mind:
                      >
                      > Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)
                      >
                      > NOTHING has changed.
                      > The body is a reservoir of pain,
                      > it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                      > it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                      > it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                      > its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                      > In tortures, all of this is considered.
                      >
                      > Nothing has changed.
                      > The body still trembles as it trembled
                      > before Rome was founded and after,
                      > in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                      > tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                      > and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.
                      >
                      > Nothing has changed.
                      > Except there are more people,
                      > and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                      > real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                      > but the cry with which the body answers for them
                      > was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                      > in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.
                      >
                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      --------
                      > ------------------------
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: George Walton
                      > To:
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call
                      it
                      > anything
                      >
                      >
                      > > GT,
                      > >
                      > > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global
                      economy"] is
                      > right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind
                      American
                      > foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to
                      assure that
                      > the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the
                      biggest
                      > chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this
                      by
                      > acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the
                      planet:
                      > Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts
                      scratch their
                      > heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third
                      World
                      > folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant
                      lumbering
                      > about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human
                      rights
                      > to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                      > >
                      > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India
                      would be
                      > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                      veritable
                      > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                      class, right?
                      > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                      > >
                      > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                      who are
                      > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                      than
                      > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                      economic power.
                      > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase
                      the best
                      > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                      this down to
                      > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                      > >
                      > > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the
                      outrage you
                      > feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and
                      caring
                      > and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the
                      sheer
                      > depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                      > >
                      > > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if
                      that is
                      > all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it?
                      Instead, the
                      > human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that
                      way
                      > because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                      > >
                      > > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that?
                      Of
                      > course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words,
                      you are
                      > incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them
                      are,
                      > again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and
                      the guns
                      > and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within
                      the
                      > system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about
                      the most
                      > egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down
                      and
                      > reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you
                      have
                      > construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally
                      contended,
                      > more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I
                      mean, who
                      > wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                      > >
                      > > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                      > Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the
                      distribution
                      > of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic
                      realities
                      > that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like
                      Jefferson were
                      > merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free
                      enterpise
                      > system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you
                      were to
                      > ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and
                      laborers
                      > and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would
                      give you
                      > a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line"
                      that most
                      > American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very
                      day.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Biggie
                      > >
                      > > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear People,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing
                      philososophy
                      > starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do
                      you know
                      > what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                      > shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are
                      lazy ,miserable
                      > good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                      > Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism
                      and
                      > supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ).
                      Frankly
                      > When you are starving, it doesn't matter whether you stand for free
                      trade or
                      > bureaucracy.
                      > >
                      > > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that
                      the
                      > conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be
                      totally free
                      > which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I
                      cannot like
                      > the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I
                      loath the US
                      > , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a
                      society
                      > maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower
                      eating lotus.
                      > >
                      > > GT
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > G Ravi
                      >
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                    • George Walton
                      Mary Jo, I could respond in any number of conflicting and contradictory ways and all of them would in a particular moment make a certain degree of sense to
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                        Mary Jo,

                        I could respond in any number of conflicting and contradictory ways and all of them would "in a particular moment" make a certain degree of sense to me. In other words, when I tell you that human identity is, to me, a self-delusion, I am telling you that is how "I" understand "my" own sense of "self": in pieces. Lots and lots of ambiguous and convoluted and contradictory pieces. And when I tell you that I do not see the world around me as in the glass half-full or half-empty, but shattered on the floor in a thousand pieces...well...that is how "I" really "do" understand "my" own sense of reality. "I" "am" the philosophical [and moral, and psychological and emotional equivalent of Humpty Dumpty. And I say "philosophical" because I do not believe this frame of mind is just a psychological state. It is, in fact, a point of view that can be grasped and defended quite rationally if you see human reality as "I" do. And it can be lived with as well because philosophy really has almost
                        nothing to do with human existence.

                        Human existence is about living your life. And we are equipped with enough biological and psychological predispositions so as to make it all worth while for most folks on the planet. Or, as I have pointed out in here previously, just because I see human interactions as essentially [philosophically/ontologically/teleologically] meaningless and absurd does not make food taste less delicious or orgasms feel less exhilarating or music sound less sublimely ecstatic.

                        In this context, I never really point folks in a particular direction philosophically; I only point out, instead, how, in my view, the trajecties I imagine they are on are probably not the most intellectually honest ones. And that, of course, revolves around the extent to which they understand themselves as "whole". Only folks like that do can speak of "honest and heartfelt" words and really, really believe it.

                        I deconstruct human identity down to the bone. That is why so many folks have this visceral antagonism to the points I make. They wish to take "sides" and I point out that, in an essentially absurd and meaningless human existence, not only are all sides interchangable in the end but that, by and large, the only reason you are on one side or the other is because your own particular existential trajectory pushed you here rather than there. Then the only legitimate question becomes the extent, in being cognizant of how this works, we can use philosophy to salvage at least some semblance of an autonomous "self" acting "freely" with and around others in the same boat. And then we die, one by one, and it all comes to nought for each of us, one by one, for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

                        Biggie



                        Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
                        Biggie,

                        Where or what is the point at which our individual perspectives and
                        similar and different sufferings in this life can merge in a moment
                        of real communication? We can't ever really share our personal
                        experiences, since we can't really feel or see what the other person
                        is experiencing. It's only through honest and "heartfelt" words that
                        we can even begin. I make peace with you now, but I can't really know
                        you, except as another human being carefully measuring his response
                        in front of this discussion group. Just don't tell me anymore that I
                        can't hope, and I won't tell that you should.

                        Peace,
                        Mary Jo

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Mary Jo,
                        >
                        > Acknowledging that one is, indeed, "condemned to be free" does not
                        give one a license to imagine one can, in turn, "choose wisely".
                        >
                        > You, again, speak of "indvidual reality" as though this were not
                        just an existential illusion, by and large.
                        >
                        > Now, I do not construe this to be as you seem to construe it at
                        all. Which does not make my way more "rational" than yours. To
                        suggest that would be to exclude myself from my own philosophy. And I
                        am, at least, "wise" enough not to do that, right?
                        >
                        > The first clue as to how clueless you are about the "nature" of
                        human communication is that you still use an expression like "from
                        the bottom of my heart". I suspect, perhaps, that was not merely a
                        figure of speech?
                        >
                        > Just out of curiosity, what sort of experiences have you had thus
                        far in life? I am one who firmly believes the wisest of the wise
                        search for meaning at the intersection of introspection and
                        experience. One without the other is particularly futile, eh?
                        >
                        > I just don't pursue either one...well...wisely. Meaning this point
                        of view is, ironically, just a figure of speech. And yet
                        expressed "in the moment" with great passion. Meaning from the bottom
                        of my heart.
                        >
                        > I have no doubt about that at all, you might say.
                        >
                        > You think, perhaps, I am just fucking with your head. Playing games
                        and such. But I am not. I am trying to give you a window inside the
                        world as I have come to understand it by talking about it the way I
                        think I do understand it: in pieces. I am, perhaps, the most
                        fragmented, broken man you will probably ever come across.
                        >
                        > I am rare specimen, indeed.
                        >
                        > Biggie
                        >
                        > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                        > Biggie,
                        >
                        > Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand more
                        about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you
                        espouse, but I will never embrace stagnation and indecisiveness when
                        that appears to be the case. The most important consequence of
                        relativity is discovering our individual reality to the universe. I
                        believe with all my heart and mind that our observation point is
                        somehow inverted. Our relativity to it needs to be either restored or
                        discovered. We are so individual that we presently can't use any
                        common language to communicate. You're just stubborn and don't want
                        to admit that there's anything else to discover. Life is absurb.
                        What's even more absurd is that you and I are trying to tell each
                        other something. You are unique. Tell me something.
                        >
                        > Mary Jo
                        >
                        > George Walton wrote:
                        > Mary Jo,
                        >
                        > One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and the
                        next day...well...if words could kill? Einstein in right about
                        relativity, observation, and the center of the universe. But alas, he
                        also thought god didn't play dice. No one is right about everything.
                        >
                        > You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like the
                        Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to
                        situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more
                        enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points out
                        that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to
                        another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated in
                        the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.
                        >
                        > We are all the center of it, eh?
                        >
                        > Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a so
                        much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Biggie
                        >
                        > Mary Jo Malo wrote:
                        > Hey Biggie,
                        >
                        > If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a
                        pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just like "nothing".
                        Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with
                        conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and
                        convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the
                        frustrated adolescent you are.
                        > By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating and
                        rotting.
                        > Jo
                        >
                        > George Walton wrote:
                        > Mary Jo,
                        >
                        > Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have been
                        so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of
                        the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having
                        being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater enlightenment"
                        >
                        > Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you,
                        perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my
                        fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.
                        >
                        > Biggie
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > GT,
                        >
                        > I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a
                        permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary
                        stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place to
                        stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.
                        >
                        > Mary Jo
                        >
                        > "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I
                        am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of
                        Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a
                        man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                        > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                        fills me with outrage."
                        >
                        > GT
                        >
                        >
                        > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,
                        >
                        > You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                        > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India
                        would be
                        > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                        veritable
                        > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                        class, right?
                        > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                        > >
                        > My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this is
                        primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of
                        bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that
                        what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to
                        differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my
                        social interaction along with my thinking.
                        > as you have said
                        > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                        who are
                        > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                        than
                        > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                        economic power.
                        > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase
                        the best
                        > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                        this down to
                        > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                        > >
                        > I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I am
                        loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The
                        struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart.
                        We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                        > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                        fills me with outrage.
                        >
                        > GT
                        > existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                        > 1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                        (tortures)
                        > From: "drQ"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        __
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        __
                        >
                        > Message: 1
                        > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                        > From: "drQ"
                        > Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                        (tortures)
                        >
                        > What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating
                        small
                        > fish!? is that all there is?
                        > Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to
                        civilization and
                        > private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son of
                        > aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!
                        >
                        > This comes to my mind:
                        >
                        > Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)
                        >
                        > NOTHING has changed.
                        > The body is a reservoir of pain,
                        > it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                        > it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                        > it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                        > its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                        > In tortures, all of this is considered.
                        >
                        > Nothing has changed.
                        > The body still trembles as it trembled
                        > before Rome was founded and after,
                        > in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                        > tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                        > and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.
                        >
                        > Nothing has changed.
                        > Except there are more people,
                        > and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                        > real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                        > but the cry with which the body answers for them
                        > was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                        > in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        --------
                        > ------------------------
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: George Walton
                        > To:
                        > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can call
                        it
                        > anything
                        >
                        >
                        > > GT,
                        > >
                        > > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global
                        economy"] is
                        > right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind
                        American
                        > foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to
                        assure that
                        > the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the
                        biggest
                        > chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing this
                        by
                        > acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the
                        planet:
                        > Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts
                        scratch their
                        > heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third
                        World
                        > folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant
                        lumbering
                        > about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and human
                        rights
                        > to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                        > >
                        > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America, India
                        would be
                        > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                        veritable
                        > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                        class, right?
                        > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                        > >
                        > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                        who are
                        > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                        than
                        > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                        economic power.
                        > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will purchase
                        the best
                        > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                        this down to
                        > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                        > >
                        > > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the
                        outrage you
                        > feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite and
                        caring
                        > and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by the
                        sheer
                        > depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                        > >
                        > > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But if
                        that is
                        > all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it?
                        Instead, the
                        > human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is that
                        way
                        > because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                        > >
                        > > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about that?
                        Of
                        > course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other words,
                        you are
                        > incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading them
                        are,
                        > again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and
                        the guns
                        > and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can work "within
                        the
                        > system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring about
                        the most
                        > egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it down
                        and
                        > reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you
                        have
                        > construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally
                        contended,
                        > more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I
                        mean, who
                        > wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                        > >
                        > > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                        > Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the
                        distribution
                        > of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic
                        realities
                        > that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like
                        Jefferson were
                        > merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free
                        enterpise
                        > system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you
                        were to
                        > ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and
                        laborers
                        > and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they would
                        give you
                        > a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line"
                        that most
                        > American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this very
                        day.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Biggie
                        > >
                        > > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear People,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing
                        philososophy
                        > starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do
                        you know
                        > what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                        > shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are
                        lazy ,miserable
                        > good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                        > Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by feaudalism
                        and
                        > supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to India ).
                        Frankly
                        > When you are starving, it doesn't matter whether you stand for free
                        trade or
                        > bureaucracy.
                        > >
                        > > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for that
                        the
                        > conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be
                        totally free
                        > which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I
                        cannot like
                        > the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I
                        loath the US
                        > , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a
                        society
                        > maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower
                        eating lotus.
                        > >
                        > > GT
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > G Ravi
                        >
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                      • Mary Jo Malo
                        Biggie, Our disagreement is not really about intellectual honesty. It s about honesty, period. It s about cognitive honesty and autonomic honesty. Our bodies
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Biggie,

                          Our disagreement is not really about "intellectual" honesty. It's
                          about honesty, period. It's about cognitive honesty and autonomic
                          honesty. Our bodies want to live, and our pain causes us to become
                          cognitive cowards and stop hoping for what our bodies' autonomically
                          want - to live well now, and to live forever. To deny hope, to deny
                          that we want to love and be loved forever is dishonest. Nihilism is
                          the cowards' way. It's like saying that since I'm in pain and fear
                          that we can't ever have what we really desire, we'll desire nothing
                          at all. Our bodies are mature and want to live. Our so called reason
                          is childish and gives up what it knows to be true. Our minds kill our
                          bodies in just about everyway imaginable. Christ, even bacteria have
                          a greater will to live than nihilists.

                          Jo

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Mary Jo,
                          >
                          > I could respond in any number of conflicting and contradictory ways
                          and all of them would "in a particular moment" make a certain degree
                          of sense to me. In other words, when I tell you that human identity
                          is, to me, a self-delusion, I am telling you that is how "I"
                          understand "my" own sense of "self": in pieces. Lots and lots of
                          ambiguous and convoluted and contradictory pieces. And when I tell
                          you that I do not see the world around me as in the glass half-full
                          or half-empty, but shattered on the floor in a thousand
                          pieces...well...that is how "I" really "do" understand "my" own sense
                          of reality. "I" "am" the philosophical [and moral, and psychological
                          and emotional equivalent of Humpty Dumpty. And I say "philosophical"
                          because I do not believe this frame of mind is just a psychological
                          state. It is, in fact, a point of view that can be grasped and
                          defended quite rationally if you see human reality as "I" do. And it
                          can be lived with as well because philosophy really has almost
                          > nothing to do with human existence.
                          >
                          > Human existence is about living your life. And we are equipped with
                          enough biological and psychological predispositions so as to make it
                          all worth while for most folks on the planet. Or, as I have pointed
                          out in here previously, just because I see human interactions as
                          essentially [philosophically/ontologically/teleologically]
                          meaningless and absurd does not make food taste less delicious or
                          orgasms feel less exhilarating or music sound less sublimely ecstatic.
                          >
                          > In this context, I never really point folks in a particular
                          direction philosophically; I only point out, instead, how, in my
                          view, the trajecties I imagine they are on are probably not the most
                          intellectually honest ones. And that, of course, revolves around the
                          extent to which they understand themselves as "whole". Only folks
                          like that do can speak of "honest and heartfelt" words and really,
                          really believe it.
                          >
                          > I deconstruct human identity down to the bone. That is why so many
                          folks have this visceral antagonism to the points I make. They wish
                          to take "sides" and I point out that, in an essentially absurd and
                          meaningless human existence, not only are all sides interchangable in
                          the end but that, by and large, the only reason you are on one side
                          or the other is because your own particular existential trajectory
                          pushed you here rather than there. Then the only legitimate question
                          becomes the extent, in being cognizant of how this works, we can use
                          philosophy to salvage at least some semblance of an autonomous "self"
                          acting "freely" with and around others in the same boat. And then we
                          die, one by one, and it all comes to nought for each of us, one by
                          one, for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.
                          >
                          > Biggie
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                          > Biggie,
                          >
                          > Where or what is the point at which our individual perspectives and
                          > similar and different sufferings in this life can merge in a moment
                          > of real communication? We can't ever really share our personal
                          > experiences, since we can't really feel or see what the other
                          person
                          > is experiencing. It's only through honest and "heartfelt" words
                          that
                          > we can even begin. I make peace with you now, but I can't really
                          know
                          > you, except as another human being carefully measuring his response
                          > in front of this discussion group. Just don't tell me anymore that
                          I
                          > can't hope, and I won't tell that you should.
                          >
                          > Peace,
                          > Mary Jo
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, George Walton <iambiguously@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Mary Jo,
                          > >
                          > > Acknowledging that one is, indeed, "condemned to be free" does
                          not
                          > give one a license to imagine one can, in turn, "choose wisely".
                          > >
                          > > You, again, speak of "indvidual reality" as though this were not
                          > just an existential illusion, by and large.
                          > >
                          > > Now, I do not construe this to be as you seem to construe it at
                          > all. Which does not make my way more "rational" than yours. To
                          > suggest that would be to exclude myself from my own philosophy. And
                          I
                          > am, at least, "wise" enough not to do that, right?
                          > >
                          > > The first clue as to how clueless you are about the "nature" of
                          > human communication is that you still use an expression like "from
                          > the bottom of my heart". I suspect, perhaps, that was not merely a
                          > figure of speech?
                          > >
                          > > Just out of curiosity, what sort of experiences have you had thus
                          > far in life? I am one who firmly believes the wisest of the wise
                          > search for meaning at the intersection of introspection and
                          > experience. One without the other is particularly futile, eh?
                          > >
                          > > I just don't pursue either one...well...wisely. Meaning this
                          point
                          > of view is, ironically, just a figure of speech. And yet
                          > expressed "in the moment" with great passion. Meaning from the
                          bottom
                          > of my heart.
                          > >
                          > > I have no doubt about that at all, you might say.
                          > >
                          > > You think, perhaps, I am just fucking with your head. Playing
                          games
                          > and such. But I am not. I am trying to give you a window inside the
                          > world as I have come to understand it by talking about it the way I
                          > think I do understand it: in pieces. I am, perhaps, the most
                          > fragmented, broken man you will probably ever come across.
                          > >
                          > > I am rare specimen, indeed.
                          > >
                          > > Biggie
                          > >
                          > > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
                          > > Biggie,
                          > >
                          > > Your words are lethal too, albeit so very polite. I understand
                          more
                          > about language than you think I do. I embrace much of what you
                          > espouse, but I will never embrace stagnation and indecisiveness
                          when
                          > that appears to be the case. The most important consequence of
                          > relativity is discovering our individual reality to the universe. I
                          > believe with all my heart and mind that our observation point is
                          > somehow inverted. Our relativity to it needs to be either restored
                          or
                          > discovered. We are so individual that we presently can't use any
                          > common language to communicate. You're just stubborn and don't want
                          > to admit that there's anything else to discover. Life is absurb.
                          > What's even more absurd is that you and I are trying to tell each
                          > other something. You are unique. Tell me something.
                          > >
                          > > Mary Jo
                          > >
                          > > George Walton wrote:
                          > > Mary Jo,
                          > >
                          > > One day you are enthusiastically embracing my point of view and
                          the
                          > next day...well...if words could kill? Einstein in right about
                          > relativity, observation, and the center of the universe. But alas,
                          he
                          > also thought god didn't play dice. No one is right about everything.
                          > >
                          > > You do not understand human language the way I do. You are like
                          the
                          > Newton of existentialism and I am like the Einstein. You wish to
                          > situate the words "here" and then expand them to the more
                          > enlightened "there". Einstein, on the other hand, not only points
                          out
                          > that much of what we think is true is true only in relationship to
                          > another vantage point but that, in turn, anywhere you are situated
                          in
                          > the universe is as "enlightened" as any other place.
                          > >
                          > > We are all the center of it, eh?
                          > >
                          > > Only some [like me] grasp the moral consequences of that from a
                          so
                          > much more....uh....enlightened frame of mind?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Biggie
                          > >
                          > > Mary Jo Malo wrote:
                          > > Hey Biggie,
                          > >
                          > > If you can summon the energy or interest, take a flying fuck at a
                          > pastry. "Enlightenment" is a generic expression, just
                          like "nothing".
                          > Some people actually feel capable of making a decision and die with
                          > conviction. What do you care anyway? You'd rather instruct and
                          > convert us to your particular verson of non-life. Remain the
                          > frustrated adolescent you are.
                          > > By enlightenment, I mean expanding and growing, not stagnating
                          and
                          > rotting.
                          > > Jo
                          > >
                          > > George Walton wrote:
                          > > Mary Jo,
                          > >
                          > > Ah, of course, the sublime "path of enlightenment". There have
                          been
                          > so many of them throughout the course of human history, eh? Most of
                          > the advocates, however, are not around today, unfortunately, having
                          > being killed off by those on the "paths of even greater
                          enlightenment"
                          > >
                          > > Fuse your own idealism with GT's "outrage" and the two of you,
                          > perhaps, can front the next vanguard army. I'll start building my
                          > fallout shelter as soon as this is posted.
                          > >
                          > > Biggie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > GT,
                          > >
                          > > I'm with you and Camus on this one. Clearly, Nihilism is not a
                          > permanent state of relativity to our world. It may be a necessary
                          > stopping place on the path of enlightenment, but clearly no place
                          to
                          > stay. One must move on and into possibility and inevitability.
                          > >
                          > > Mary Jo
                          > >
                          > > "I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I
                          > am loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of
                          > Sisyphus"The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill
                          a
                          > man's heart. We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                          > > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                          > fills me with outrage."
                          > >
                          > > GT
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:Dear George ,
                          > >
                          > > You talk sense. I have to agree with you when you say
                          > > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America,
                          India
                          > would be
                          > > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                          > veritable
                          > > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                          > class, right?
                          > > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?.
                          > > >
                          > > My point is basically when the great majority of humanity ( this
                          is
                          > primarily the so called 3 world ) is trapped in so much chains of
                          > bondage and ignorance can I as an existential being ignore all that
                          > what is happening around me and live as a lotus eater. I beg to
                          > differ. My nature as an being in this world is manifested by my
                          > social interaction along with my thinking.
                          > > as you have said
                          > > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                          > who are
                          > > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                          > than
                          > > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                          > economic power.
                          > > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will
                          purchase
                          > the best
                          > > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                          > this down to
                          > > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                          > > >
                          > > I very clearly cannot disagree , but yet in my heart of hearts I
                          am
                          > loath to belive what you say. I quote Camus in Myth of Sisyphus"The
                          > struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's
                          heart.
                          > We have to imagine Sisyphus happy."
                          > > Under these circumstances talking cynically about some inanities
                          > fills me with outrage.
                          > >
                          > > GT
                          > > existlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                          > > 1. Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                          > (tortures)
                          > > From: "drQ"
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          > __
                          > >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          > __
                          > >
                          > > Message: 1
                          > > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:28:10 +0300
                          > > From: "drQ"
                          > > Subject: Re: Existentialism & Humanism or you can call it anything
                          > (tortures)
                          > >
                          > > What?.. no ethics at all!? All is a "lie" !? Only big fish eating
                          > small
                          > > fish!? is that all there is?
                          > > Was this unfairness of human condition present prior to
                          > civilization and
                          > > private property? or "this distribution of power" is only the son
                          of
                          > > aggressive capitalism!?... I wonder!!!
                          > >
                          > > This comes to my mind:
                          > >
                          > > Tortures (by Wislawa Szymborska - 1986)
                          > >
                          > > NOTHING has changed.
                          > > The body is a reservoir of pain,
                          > > it has to eat and breathe the air, and sleep,
                          > > it's got thin skin and the blood is just beneath it,
                          > > it's got a good supply of teeth and fingernails,
                          > > its bones can be broken, its joints can be stretched.
                          > > In tortures, all of this is considered.
                          > >
                          > > Nothing has changed.
                          > > The body still trembles as it trembled
                          > > before Rome was founded and after,
                          > > in twentieth century before and after Christ;
                          > > tortures are just what they were, only the earth has shrunk
                          > > and whatever goes on sounds as if it's just a room away.
                          > >
                          > > Nothing has changed.
                          > > Except there are more people,
                          > > and new offences have sprung up beside the old ones,
                          > > real, make-believe, short-lived, and nonexistent,
                          > > but the cry with which the body answers for them
                          > > was, is, will be a cry of innocence
                          > > in keeping with the age-old scale and pitch.
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                          --
                          > --------
                          > > ------------------------
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: George Walton
                          > > To:
                          > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:11 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Existentialism & Humanism or you can
                          call
                          > it
                          > > anything
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > GT,
                          > > >
                          > > > Your point about American Imperialism [the so-called "global
                          > economy"] is
                          > > right in the bullseye, of course. The whole rationale behind
                          > American
                          > > foreign policy is to reconfigure the rest of the world so as to
                          > assure that
                          > > the Fat Cat Big Buckmeisters and their polical lackies get the
                          > biggest
                          > > chunks of the economic pie. And they largely succeed in doing
                          this
                          > by
                          > > acculturating some of the most politically ignorant folks on the
                          > planet:
                          > > Amercian citizens. I mean, these politically challenged dolts
                          > scratch their
                          > > heads day after day trying to figure out why so much of the Third
                          > World
                          > > folks hate them! They see America as this big ole benign giant
                          > lumbering
                          > > about the globe and trying to bring freedom and democracy and
                          human
                          > rights
                          > > to the poor and huddled masses. Now that is brainwashed, eh?
                          > > >
                          > > > Still, let's not pretend that, if it were not for America,
                          India
                          > would be
                          > > a shining beacon of human rights and freedom and justice...a
                          > veritable
                          > > democratic paradise! Every culture, after all, has its ruling
                          > class, right?
                          > > For example, does the phrase "caste system" ring a bell?
                          > > >
                          > > > That's the way of the world. There are always going to be folks
                          > who are
                          > > smarter and more aggressive and more resourceful and more clever
                          > than
                          > > others. They will be the ones who accummulate political and
                          > economic power.
                          > > And with that political and economic wherwithal they will
                          purchase
                          > the best
                          > > enforcers [judges and cops and soldiers] around. Then they pass
                          > this down to
                          > > the next generation. End of story. Human history in a nutshell.
                          > > >
                          > > > Now, in your post you were very effective at displaying the
                          > outrage you
                          > > feel over this. And that is because all kind and compssionaite
                          and
                          > caring
                          > > and concerned folks [which I'm sure you are] become enraged by
                          the
                          > sheer
                          > > depth of the economic disparity around the globe.
                          > > >
                          > > > John Kennedy, for example, once noted that life is unfair. But
                          if
                          > that is
                          > > all it were, it would be so much easier to bear, wouldn't it?
                          > Instead, the
                          > > human condition is obscenely unfair; and, by and large, it is
                          that
                          > way
                          > > because the game is rigged by the rich and powerful.
                          > > >
                          > > > But here's the thing: what specifically are you doing about
                          that?
                          > Of
                          > > course, that's when the rage meets the fear, right? In other
                          words,
                          > you are
                          > > incensed that the dice are flagrantly loaded but those loading
                          them
                          > are,
                          > > again, the folks with the laws and the cops and the soldiers and
                          > the guns
                          > > and the tanks and the nuclear warheads. Sure, you can
                          work "within
                          > the
                          > > system", perhaps, and try to reform the conditions that bring
                          about
                          > the most
                          > > egregious suffering. But you can't ever really hope to tear it
                          down
                          > and
                          > > reconstruct it based on the so much more "ideal" contraption you
                          > have
                          > > construed in your head. Besides, as the 20th century so brutally
                          > contended,
                          > > more often than not, the cure is much worse than the disease. I
                          > mean, who
                          > > wants to relocate to Cuba or North Korea?
                          > > >
                          > > > Philosophy has virtually nothing to offer the world [aside from
                          > > Machavelian type contributions] because the world is about the
                          > distribution
                          > > of power. Even an in depth perusal of the political and economic
                          > realities
                          > > that brought about the US Constitution show that folks like
                          > Jefferson were
                          > > merely proposing a legislative context in which to allow the free
                          > enterpise
                          > > system to flourish as...well...free as possible. If, however, you
                          > were to
                          > > ask the Indians and slaves and women and indentured servants and
                          > laborers
                          > > and small landowners back then about freedom and liberty they
                          would
                          > give you
                          > > a point of view quite at variance from the official "party line"
                          > that most
                          > > American citizens still reguritate like trained seals to this
                          very
                          > day.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Biggie
                          > > >
                          > > > Thiraviyam Ganesan wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Dear People,
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Frankly I cannot belive the junk being written . Try arguing
                          > philososophy
                          > > starving. I come from India. Where poverty dances in ecstacy. Do
                          > you know
                          > > what is poverty .It is a state where you are hungry, illiterate ,
                          > > shelterless and naked. Why is it so ? Because the people are
                          > lazy ,miserable
                          > > good for nothing. No , No and No it is because of your so called
                          > > Imperialism's)capitalism's Plunder and Pillage backed by
                          feaudalism
                          > and
                          > > supported by the bureaucracy ( surprised huh? come over to
                          India ).
                          > Frankly
                          > > When you are starving, it doesn't matter whether you stand for
                          free
                          > trade or
                          > > bureaucracy.
                          > > >
                          > > > I belive everybody are responsible for them selves, but for
                          that
                          > the
                          > > conditions need to be created. I do not belive that I can be
                          > totally free
                          > > which I want to be) when all around me are ignorant bondage. I
                          > cannot like
                          > > the existentialists of the west ( especially the US ( frankly I
                          > loath the US
                          > > , POMPOUS ARROGANT BASTARDS)) forget the fact that we live in a
                          > society
                          > > maybe a different one from yoiurs) and live in an ivory tower
                          > eating lotus.
                          > > >
                          > > > GT
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > G Ravi
                          > >
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                        • C. S. Wyatt
                          ... A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for destruction. Nihilism, academically, is a theory that asserts that humanity will peak and then
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                            The following statement is technically inaccurate:

                            > Christ, even bacteria have
                            > a greater will to live than nihilists.
                            >
                            > Jo

                            A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for
                            destruction. Nihilism, academically, is a theory that asserts that
                            humanity will peak and then descend into chaotic existence. The peaks
                            and valleys of this pattern move mankind forward, until a final
                            descent -- thousands of years from now, in theory.

                            When capitalized, Nihilism is a cousin to Anarchy. It was a political
                            movement throughout Europe and found a center in the Slavic nations.
                            Eventually, Nihilism even counted as a true force in the Russian
                            Revolutionary Movements.

                            Nihilism, noun. the beliefs and practices of a revolutionary party in
                            Russia in the middle 1800's, which advocated destruction of the old
                            order by violence and terrorism to make way for reform.

                            On the other hand, nihilism (lowercase) is more a rejection of order
                            than an assertion that everything is terrible and we should all die.

                            ni·hil·ism n
                            1. the general rejection of established social conventions and
                            beliefs, especially of morality and religion
                            2. a belief that life is pointless and human values are worthless
                            3. the belief that there is no objective basis for truth
                            4. the belief that all established authority is corrupt and must be
                            destroyed in order to rebuild a just society
                            5. Ni·hil·ism: a political movement in late 19th-century Russia that
                            sought to bring about a just new society by destroying the existing
                            one through acts of terrorism and assassination

                            (from, of all places: Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999)

                            I could use any number of dictionaries and texts for longer
                            definitions, but let us use these simplified definitions.

                            The first two easily fit into the Existentialism of early Sartre,
                            which is why many consider the two related. The idea that social
                            values should be redacted and replaced by internal motivations,
                            intrinsic values, is common to many Continental Philosophical schools
                            of thought.

                            Item 3 is closer to later movements. I hate to sound negative, but
                            American "moral relativists" and "cultural relativists" often fall
                            under the spell of the "no objective truth" assertion of nihilism.
                            Personally, I think there are a few objective truths -- starting with
                            mankind is an animal that seeks to survive.

                            Items 4 and 5 are Sartre's weakness. In fact, Sartre admired and
                            embraced Russian Nihilism as a romantic notion. Camus did the same, in
                            "The Just Assassins" -- but he observed a clear distinction between
                            Nihilism and nihilism. Dostoevsky and other Russian writers did the same.

                            "Nihilism" and "nihilistic" are too often misused, like "Existential"
                            and "existentialism."

                            - C. S. Wyatt
                          • Mary Jo Malo
                            C.S. Nihilism is not only despair and negation, but above all the desire to despair and to negate. - Albert Camus If we are to fail, it is better in any
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                              C.S.

                              "Nihilism is not only despair and negation, but above all the desire
                              to despair and to negate." - Albert Camus

                              "If we are to fail, it is better in any case to have stood on the
                              side of those who choose life than on the side of those who are
                              destroying." - Camus

                              Mary Jo

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@t...>
                              wrote:
                              > The following statement is technically inaccurate:
                              >
                              > > Christ, even bacteria have
                              > > a greater will to live than nihilists.
                              > >
                              > > Jo
                              >
                              > A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for
                              > destruction. Nihilism, academically, is a theory that asserts that
                              > humanity will peak and then descend into chaotic existence. The
                              peaks
                              > and valleys of this pattern move mankind forward, until a final
                              > descent -- thousands of years from now, in theory.
                              >
                              > When capitalized, Nihilism is a cousin to Anarchy. It was a
                              political
                              > movement throughout Europe and found a center in the Slavic nations.
                              > Eventually, Nihilism even counted as a true force in the Russian
                              > Revolutionary Movements.
                              >
                              > Nihilism, noun. the beliefs and practices of a revolutionary party
                              in
                              > Russia in the middle 1800's, which advocated destruction of the old
                              > order by violence and terrorism to make way for reform.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, nihilism (lowercase) is more a rejection of order
                              > than an assertion that everything is terrible and we should all die.
                              >
                              > ni·hil·ism n
                              > 1. the general rejection of established social conventions and
                              > beliefs, especially of morality and religion
                              > 2. a belief that life is pointless and human values are worthless
                              > 3. the belief that there is no objective basis for truth
                              > 4. the belief that all established authority is corrupt and must be
                              > destroyed in order to rebuild a just society
                              > 5. Ni·hil·ism: a political movement in late 19th-century Russia that
                              > sought to bring about a just new society by destroying the existing
                              > one through acts of terrorism and assassination
                              >
                              > (from, of all places: Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999)
                              >
                              > I could use any number of dictionaries and texts for longer
                              > definitions, but let us use these simplified definitions.
                              >
                              > The first two easily fit into the Existentialism of early Sartre,
                              > which is why many consider the two related. The idea that social
                              > values should be redacted and replaced by internal motivations,
                              > intrinsic values, is common to many Continental Philosophical
                              schools
                              > of thought.
                              >
                              > Item 3 is closer to later movements. I hate to sound negative, but
                              > American "moral relativists" and "cultural relativists" often fall
                              > under the spell of the "no objective truth" assertion of nihilism.
                              > Personally, I think there are a few objective truths -- starting
                              with
                              > mankind is an animal that seeks to survive.
                              >
                              > Items 4 and 5 are Sartre's weakness. In fact, Sartre admired and
                              > embraced Russian Nihilism as a romantic notion. Camus did the same,
                              in
                              > "The Just Assassins" -- but he observed a clear distinction between
                              > Nihilism and nihilism. Dostoevsky and other Russian writers did the
                              same.
                              >
                              > "Nihilism" and "nihilistic" are too often misused,
                              like "Existential"
                              > and "existentialism."
                              >
                              > - C. S. Wyatt
                            • C. S. Wyatt
                              ... Camus, especially during the Algerian uprisings, came to see violent rebellion as no longer acceptable in the post-WWII environment. Like Merleau-Ponty, he
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                > "If we are to fail, it is better in any case to have stood on the
                                > side of those who choose life than on the side of those who are
                                > destroying." - Camus
                                >
                                > Mary Jo
                                >

                                Camus, especially during the Algerian uprisings, came to see violent
                                rebellion as no longer acceptable in the post-WWII environment. Like
                                Merleau-Ponty, he came to view the Nihilists and Communists of Soviet
                                Russia as suspect.

                                Revolution often descends in to a cycle of violence. Camus lectured on
                                this, near the time of his death. Camus struggled with the problem of
                                violence, as did so many others during the 20th-Century.

                                The Nihilists of Russia turned increasingly violent, without logic,
                                and Camus studied this and other revolutionary movements. He came to
                                view the Nihilists as basically hopeless and caught in a mob
                                mentality. The violence lost its meaning -- equality for the workers
                                -- and became nothing but destruction.

                                Words mean things... which is why we have dictionaries and I am
                                careful to post lexicons on my Web site.

                                We toss about words too esily without historical context.

                                - C. S. Wyatt
                              • C. S. Wyatt
                                I wish to clarify something.. ... The Nihilists of Russia and Eastern Europe did not call for the compelte destruction of society, but rather the destruction
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                  I wish to clarify something..

                                  > A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for
                                  > destruction. Nihilism, academically, is a theory that asserts that
                                  > humanity will peak and then descend into chaotic existence. The peaks
                                  > and valleys of this pattern move mankind forward, until a final
                                  > descent -- thousands of years from now, in theory.

                                  The Nihilists of Russia and Eastern Europe did not call for the
                                  compelte destruction of society, but rather the destruction of a
                                  government and its symbols. I do not consider this "destructive" in
                                  the sense of random and violent crime -- this is not Clockwork Orange.

                                  So, it becomes slightly symantec... destructive in the sense of
                                  tearing down a government, but not destructive in the sense of harming
                                  the citizens of a society. The Nihilists were no longer a political
                                  force by the end of World War I.

                                  The word "nihilism" slipped into common usage, without a reference to
                                  the party, to describe random and meaningless destruction. However,
                                  that is not the philosophical definition.

                                  Anyway... I must slip out again and write.
                                • Mary Jo Malo
                                  C.S. Camus examined nihilism in greater depth than the example you provide. I accept his rejection, because it is my rejection. Obviously, I choose the side of
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                    C.S.

                                    Camus examined nihilism in greater depth than the example you provide. I accept his rejection, because it is my rejection. Obviously, I choose the side of hope, because I give an ultimate dignity to the human condition. Even with dictionaries, lexicons and historical context, we are simply offered several definitions. We will always choose the definition that most suits that which we already hold to be true for ourselves. To deny desire and hope in both trivial and profound matters will only guarantee that those who masquerade as humanity will succeed in making us like them. I choose forwards rather than backwards.

                                    Mary Jo

                                    "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...> wrote:
                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                    > "If we are to fail, it is better in any case to have stood on the
                                    > side of those who choose life than on the side of those who are
                                    > destroying." - Camus
                                    >
                                    > Mary Jo
                                    >

                                    Camus, especially during the Algerian uprisings, came to see violent
                                    rebellion as no longer acceptable in the post-WWII environment. Like
                                    Merleau-Ponty, he came to view the Nihilists and Communists of Soviet
                                    Russia as suspect.

                                    Revolution often descends in to a cycle of violence. Camus lectured on
                                    this, near the time of his death. Camus struggled with the problem of
                                    violence, as did so many others during the 20th-Century.

                                    The Nihilists of Russia turned increasingly violent, without logic,
                                    and Camus studied this and other revolutionary movements. He came to
                                    view the Nihilists as basically hopeless and caught in a mob
                                    mentality. The violence lost its meaning -- equality for the workers
                                    -- and became nothing but destruction.

                                    Words mean things... which is why we have dictionaries and I am
                                    careful to post lexicons on my Web site.

                                    We toss about words too esily without historical context.

                                    - C. S. Wyatt



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                                  • George Walton
                                    Philosophy in a dictionary? C. S. Wyatt wrote: ... A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for destruction. Nihilism,
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                      Philosophy in a dictionary?



                                      "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...> wrote:
                                      The following statement is technically inaccurate:

                                      > Christ, even bacteria have
                                      > a greater will to live than nihilists.
                                      >
                                      > Jo

                                      A Nihilist is not destructive, nor does he or she call for
                                      destruction. Nihilism, academically, is a theory that asserts that
                                      humanity will peak and then descend into chaotic existence. The peaks
                                      and valleys of this pattern move mankind forward, until a final
                                      descent -- thousands of years from now, in theory.

                                      When capitalized, Nihilism is a cousin to Anarchy. It was a political
                                      movement throughout Europe and found a center in the Slavic nations.
                                      Eventually, Nihilism even counted as a true force in the Russian
                                      Revolutionary Movements.

                                      Nihilism, noun. the beliefs and practices of a revolutionary party in
                                      Russia in the middle 1800's, which advocated destruction of the old
                                      order by violence and terrorism to make way for reform.

                                      On the other hand, nihilism (lowercase) is more a rejection of order
                                      than an assertion that everything is terrible and we should all die.

                                      ni�hil�ism n
                                      1. the general rejection of established social conventions and
                                      beliefs, especially of morality and religion
                                      2. a belief that life is pointless and human values are worthless
                                      3. the belief that there is no objective basis for truth
                                      4. the belief that all established authority is corrupt and must be
                                      destroyed in order to rebuild a just society
                                      5. Ni�hil�ism: a political movement in late 19th-century Russia that
                                      sought to bring about a just new society by destroying the existing
                                      one through acts of terrorism and assassination

                                      (from, of all places: Encarta� World English Dictionary � 1999)

                                      I could use any number of dictionaries and texts for longer
                                      definitions, but let us use these simplified definitions.

                                      The first two easily fit into the Existentialism of early Sartre,
                                      which is why many consider the two related. The idea that social
                                      values should be redacted and replaced by internal motivations,
                                      intrinsic values, is common to many Continental Philosophical schools
                                      of thought.

                                      Item 3 is closer to later movements. I hate to sound negative, but
                                      American "moral relativists" and "cultural relativists" often fall
                                      under the spell of the "no objective truth" assertion of nihilism.
                                      Personally, I think there are a few objective truths -- starting with
                                      mankind is an animal that seeks to survive.

                                      Items 4 and 5 are Sartre's weakness. In fact, Sartre admired and
                                      embraced Russian Nihilism as a romantic notion. Camus did the same, in
                                      "The Just Assassins" -- but he observed a clear distinction between
                                      Nihilism and nihilism. Dostoevsky and other Russian writers did the same.

                                      "Nihilism" and "nihilistic" are too often misused, like "Existential"
                                      and "existentialism."

                                      - C. S. Wyatt


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                                    • George Walton
                                      Words mean things. And God knows only nihilists are permitted to compile the dictionaries we use to confirm the meaning of all the words we use in philosophy.
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                        Words mean things. And God knows only nihilists are permitted to compile the dictionaries we use to confirm the meaning of all the words we use in philosophy.

                                        He does, doesn't he?

                                        "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...> wrote:
                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo Malo" <alcyon11@y...>
                                        > "If we are to fail, it is better in any case to have stood on the
                                        > side of those who choose life than on the side of those who are
                                        > destroying." - Camus
                                        >
                                        > Mary Jo
                                        >

                                        Camus, especially during the Algerian uprisings, came to see violent
                                        rebellion as no longer acceptable in the post-WWII environment. Like
                                        Merleau-Ponty, he came to view the Nihilists and Communists of Soviet
                                        Russia as suspect.

                                        Revolution often descends in to a cycle of violence. Camus lectured on
                                        this, near the time of his death. Camus struggled with the problem of
                                        violence, as did so many others during the 20th-Century.

                                        The Nihilists of Russia turned increasingly violent, without logic,
                                        and Camus studied this and other revolutionary movements. He came to
                                        view the Nihilists as basically hopeless and caught in a mob
                                        mentality. The violence lost its meaning -- equality for the workers
                                        -- and became nothing but destruction.

                                        Words mean things... which is why we have dictionaries and I am
                                        careful to post lexicons on my Web site.

                                        We toss about words too esily without historical context.

                                        - C. S. Wyatt



                                        Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

                                        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                                        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

                                        TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                                        existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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