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Re: [existlist] Re: The thought of sensation, randomness, and perversity in religion

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  • Mark and Bev Tindall
    ... Have you checked how many philosophers are in employement lately? How many listed in the Positiions Vacant? How much they earn if they do get a job? ...
    Message 1 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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      Harry wrote:


      >>> But will it give me bread so I can live?
      >>
      >>Not if you are a philosopher by profession.
      >
      > Ahem... I perceive this to be a false statement.


      Have you checked how many philosophers are in employement lately? How many listed in the Positiions Vacant? How much they earn if they do get a job?



      >>Maybe his usefulness is seen in the wasteful
      >> interpersonal acts of love.
      >
      > Intrigueing response. Would you care to elaborate > on that?


      It comes from a phrase by John Shelby Spong, Christian Existentialist, that he purpose of life is to love wastefully. This is the meaning of Grace ... also explored on the track 'Grace' in U2's cd 'All That You Can't Leave Behind' ... 'Grace ... an idea that changed the world'

      Which leads me back to my point about art and existentialism ..........

      UNANSWERED QUESTIONS TO eduard

      *****************************************

      Why can subjective qualitative fiction be a source for understanding existentialism as in Camus (an atheist) and Dostoevsky (a Christian)?

      Soren Kierkegaard, Christian and Father of Existentialism, points to Socrates as 'the individual' who uses Kierkegaad's 'indirect communication' ... a feature of existentialism. Socrates taught no objective quantitative doctrine! Kierkegaard is talking about Socrates' methodology ... Socratic method.

      Similarly Kierkegaard points to Jesus' teaching in parables about the kingdom of God which is only answered in metaphor. This is Kierkegaard's 'indirect communication' ... a feature of Christian Existentialism.

      One can similarly track the existentialist influence on the beat generation and their poets. Poetry is subjective.


      What are the key characteristics of subjective ART that influences existentialism? What is the unifying subjective method of philosophising that unites Existentialist art as one?

      The characteristics and methodologies have NOTHING to do with science.

      The characteristics and methodologies are all SUBJECTIVE and QUALITATIVE - the prime characteristic and methodology of EXISTENTIALISM!

      **********************************************


      Mark

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • yeoman
      Mark, ... From: Mark and Bev Tindall To: Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [existlist]
      Message 2 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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        Mark,

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mark and Bev Tindall" <tindall@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:42 AM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: The thought of sensation,
        randomness, and perversity in religion


        > Harry wrote:
        >
        >
        > >>> But will it give me bread so I can live?
        > >>
        > >>Not if you are a philosopher by profession.
        > >
        > > Ahem... I perceive this to be a false statement.

        > Have you checked how many philosophers are in employement
        lately? How many listed in the Positiions Vacant? How much
        they earn if they do get a job?

        ---> Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
        nation. It would be more benificial [to themselves and
        others] if they were to get a proper day job and leave the
        philosophizing to the evening.

        eduard
      • Lorna Landry
        Eduard! This has got to be the most narrow minded thing I ve seen from you! Can you possibly mean it?? You see no value for philosophy for us as a society?? I
        Message 3 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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          Eduard! This has got to be the most narrow minded thing I've seen from you! Can you possibly mean it?? You see no value for philosophy for us as a society?? I think rather than banishing philosophy (and I mean the practice of thinking here, not a particular system of thought) from the 'productive' side of society you refer to, we should be making it a BIGGER part of our lives - in the day and the evening! Just what is your idea of a proper day job? Lorna

          yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:
          ---> Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
          nation. It would be more benificial [to themselves and
          others] if they were to get a proper day job and leave the
          philosophizing to the evening.

          eduard


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        • yeoman
          Lorna, It is a reality. That is why we pay plumbers more than some doctors. Philosophy is of value, but it does not rank up there in society s priorities.
          Message 4 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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            Lorna,

            It is a reality. That is why we pay plumbers more than some
            doctors. Philosophy is of value, but it does not rank up
            there in society's priorities. You may feel that I should
            be a priority, but it simply isn't.

            Look at the listing of salaries for various professions. I
            doubt that the category of philosopher even appears on the
            list.

            A "proper day job" is anything that is productive. You
            could use your job as an example.

            I am not suggesting that we should banish philosophy. There
            is a need to ponder the mysteries of life, but it is not a
            priority for society in general. We would like to think
            that it should, but the reality is that it isn't.

            eduard


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 10:56 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Value of Philosophy


            > Eduard! This has got to be the most narrow minded thing
            I've seen from you! Can you possibly mean it?? You see no
            value for philosophy for us as a society?? I think rather
            than banishing philosophy (and I mean the practice of
            thinking here, not a particular system of thought) from the
            'productive' side of society you refer to, we should be
            making it a BIGGER part of our lives - in the day and the
            evening! Just what is your idea of a proper day job? Lorna
            >
            > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:
            > ---> Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
            > nation. It would be more benificial [to themselves and
            > others] if they were to get a proper day job and leave the
            > philosophizing to the evening.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            >
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          • bjunius30
            A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is useful as logic was once useful in building the foundations of natural sciences to what they are today.
            Message 5 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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              A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is useful as
              logic was once useful in building the foundations of natural sciences
              to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school founded by
              philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and understanding. (Do you
              know what those are called today?) University and colleges. Are they
              just plain un-productive?

              Bryan Evan Junius
              Cambridge University, UK

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, yeoman <yeoman@v...> wrote:
              > Lorna,
              >
              > It is a reality. That is why we pay plumbers more than some
              > doctors. Philosophy is of value, but it does not rank up
              > there in society's priorities. You may feel that I should
              > be a priority, but it simply isn't.
              >
              > Look at the listing of salaries for various professions. I
              > doubt that the category of philosopher even appears on the
              > list.
              >
              > A "proper day job" is anything that is productive. You
              > could use your job as an example.
              >
              > I am not suggesting that we should banish philosophy. There
              > is a need to ponder the mysteries of life, but it is not a
              > priority for society in general. We would like to think
              > that it should, but the reality is that it isn't.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@y...>
              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 10:56 AM
              > Subject: [existlist] Value of Philosophy
              >
              >
              > > Eduard! This has got to be the most narrow minded thing
              > I've seen from you! Can you possibly mean it?? You see no
              > value for philosophy for us as a society?? I think rather
              > than banishing philosophy (and I mean the practice of
              > thinking here, not a particular system of thought) from the
              > 'productive' side of society you refer to, we should be
              > making it a BIGGER part of our lives - in the day and the
              > evening! Just what is your idea of a proper day job? Lorna
              > >
              > > yeoman <yeoman@v...> wrote:
              > > ---> Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
              > > nation. It would be more benificial [to themselves and
              > > others] if they were to get a proper day job and leave the
              > > philosophizing to the evening.
              > >
              > > eduard
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              > > var lrec_target="_top"; var lrec_URL = new Array();
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              > ww.proflowers.com/rmi-unframed-url/http://www.proflo
              > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
            • yeoman
              Bryan, Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers, Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not
              Message 6 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                Bryan,

                Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers], Engineers,
                etc...

                If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                professions. That is a reality.

                eduard

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                useful as
                > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                natural sciences
                > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                founded by
                > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and understanding.
                (Do you
                > know what those are called today?) University and
                colleges. Are they
                > just plain un-productive?
                >
                > Bryan Evan Junius
                > Cambridge University, UK
              • David Leon
                I would argue all this value of philosophy stuff with you all. But it s stuff that I guess I ve already been through, and it s kinda just like ok..oh well
                Message 7 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                  I would argue all this value of philosophy stuff with you all. But it's
                  stuff that I guess I've already been through, and it's kinda just like
                  "ok..oh well" right now, for me.

                  It's already fairly simple to me how that philosophy is in everything we do
                  and the only reasons I might be a philosopher is because I think a lot. That
                  doesn't set me apart all the socially as much as it does realistically, even
                  "psychologically" or physically, in my brain or body or whatnot. "Thinking"
                  happens to be in everything we do, so "thinking a lot", or thinking as
                  applied to a certain philosophical dilemma or theme, only might set me apart
                  because I am actually DOING some stuff with that thinking that might
                  influence others' thinking eventually, or more than that really, might be
                  some new way of getting around or through (and also identifying in the first
                  place) a dilemma in philosophy (or just 'thought').

                  That's philosophy. Personal, professional, whatever. It's just getting
                  around problems, dilemma, having a more wrappable 'mind' (mentality,
                  thinking). You can apply it to owning, operating, or heading a business, or
                  ..well..figuring out computer configurations [but who wants to do that!], or
                  law, politics, or "anything". But it can also be like "a thing itself". And
                  some people might "think enough", or be psychically (bio-socially and all
                  that jazz) set-up, to be concerned about "the thing itself". And, some might
                  just mostly stop at the applications of a little thought to nursing, or to
                  electronic technologies, or a tadbit moreso to consulting, or educating,
                  etc. We are all interrelated. ..My first love does happen to be
                  "philosophy". But philosophy (some problem-solving and some innovative
                  thinking?) can help me be the better .."anything"? But I happen to be
                  concerned about "the thing itself", too. Rather a good deal, actually.
                  That's an individual thing. - Who (or in so many words, "what") you are.

                  Dave


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "yeoman" <yeoman@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 9:45 AM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                  > Bryan,
                  >
                  > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                  > philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                  > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers], Engineers,
                  > etc...
                  >
                  > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                  > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                  > think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                  > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                  > saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                  > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                  > professions. That is a reality.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                  >
                  >
                  > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                  > useful as
                  > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                  > natural sciences
                  > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                  > founded by
                  > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and understanding.
                  > (Do you
                  > > know what those are called today?) University and
                  > colleges. Are they
                  > > just plain un-productive?
                  > >
                  > > Bryan Evan Junius
                  > > Cambridge University, UK
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                  > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Lorna Landry
                  Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing department in a university. It s not what philosophy
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                    Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing department in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you, but what it does TO you that's important. Lorna

                    yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,

                    Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                    philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                    Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers], Engineers,
                    etc...

                    If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                    philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                    think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                    and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                    saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                    just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                    professions. That is a reality.

                    eduard

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                    > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                    useful as
                    > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                    natural sciences
                    > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                    founded by
                    > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and understanding.
                    (Do you
                    > know what those are called today?) University and
                    colleges. Are they
                    > just plain un-productive?
                    >
                    > Bryan Evan Junius
                    > Cambridge University, UK


                    Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                  • Lorna Landry
                    Eduard, An interesting, albeit NONPHILOSOPHICAL opinion. Are you saying that a career in engineering is more valuable than a career of philosophy? I guess that
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                      Eduard, An interesting, albeit NONPHILOSOPHICAL opinion. Are you saying that a career in engineering is more valuable than a career of philosophy? I guess that brings everything back to the question of value. I think all the others professions would benefit if they tooka more philopshical approach to everything. Lorna

                      yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote: I am not
                      saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                      just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                      professions. That is a reality.

                      eduard

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                      > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                      useful as
                      > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                      natural sciences
                      > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                      founded by
                      > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and understanding.
                      (Do you
                      > know what those are called today?) University and
                      colleges. Are they
                      > just plain un-productive?
                      >
                      > Bryan Evan Junius
                      > Cambridge University, UK


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                    • Harry JMK
                      ... Well, Mark, if I look at it mathematically, your statement then was incomplete! Looking at your response, it should have been: Not if you are a
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At 02-05-2003 Friday, Mark wrote:
                        >Harry wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > >>> But will it give me bread so I can live?
                        > >>
                        > >>Not if you are a philosopher by profession.
                        > >
                        > > Ahem... I perceive this to be a false statement.
                        >
                        >
                        >Have you checked how many philosophers are in employement lately? How
                        >many listed in the Positiions Vacant? How much they earn if they do get a job?

                        Well, Mark, if I look at it mathematically, your statement then was
                        incomplete! Looking at your response, it should have been:

                        'Not if you are a philosopher by profession, but unemployed.'

                        ...but it wasn't. Your former statement includes what I have explained
                        earlier: By having a profession I earn money for the philosophy work I do,
                        and thus I can buy bread. If I did not get the mony I would have (to have
                        chosen) another profession. 'Profession' defines that I make (some) kind of
                        money out of it, at least enough to by my bread. My objection stands :-).

                        Kind regards,
                        - Harry -
                      • yeoman
                        Lorna, I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is important in that regard. But if philosophy is the only thing on your resume, then it will
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                          Lorna,

                          I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is
                          important in that regard. But if "philosophy" is the only
                          thing on your resume, then it will not get you very far. If
                          you open up the jobs section of the newspaper there not
                          likely to be a section devoted to philosophers.

                          The same applies to Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. The Rabbi
                          is expected to have a day job. For good reason.

                          eduard

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:15 PM
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                          > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers
                          rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing department
                          in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you, but
                          what it does TO you that's important. Lorna
                          >
                          > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,
                          >
                          > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                          > philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                          > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers],
                          Engineers,
                          > etc...
                          >
                          > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                          > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                          > think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                          > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                          > saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                          > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                          > professions. That is a reality.
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                          >
                          >
                          > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                          > useful as
                          > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                          > natural sciences
                          > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                          > founded by
                          > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and
                          understanding.
                          > (Do you
                          > > know what those are called today?) University and
                          > colleges. Are they
                          > > just plain un-productive?
                          > >
                          > > Bryan Evan Junius
                          > > Cambridge University, UK
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                        • yeoman
                          Lorna, It all depends upon who is doing the valuing. If it is the individual, then value is whatever one wishes to make of it. In the case of society, as we
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                            Lorna,

                            It all depends upon who is doing the valuing. If it is the
                            individual, then value is whatever one wishes to make of
                            it. In the case of society, as we have today, philosophy is
                            fairly low on the agenda. That may well be a wrong attitude
                            and it has been pointed out that the emphasis on technical
                            knowledge has been to the detriment of the Islamic
                            countries.

                            I think of philosophy as being something that one gets into
                            with age and experience.

                            I am not sure about philosophy in other professions. But
                            that certainly is the case for art. Good engineering is all
                            about having an artistic ability -- otherwise it is just a
                            trade.

                            eduard

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                            > Eduard, An interesting, albeit NONPHILOSOPHICAL opinion.
                            Are you saying that a career in engineering is more valuable
                            than a career of philosophy? I guess that brings everything
                            back to the question of value. I think all the others
                            professions would benefit if they tooka more philopshical
                            approach to everything. Lorna
                          • David Leon
                            ... From: yeoman To: Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "yeoman" <yeoman@...>
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:54 PM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                              > Lorna,
                              >
                              > I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is
                              > important in that regard. But if "philosophy" is the only
                              > thing on your resume, then it will not get you very far. If
                              > you open up the jobs section of the newspaper there not
                              > likely to be a section devoted to philosophers.
                              >
                              > The same applies to Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. The Rabbi
                              > is expected to have a day job. For good reason.
                              >

                              You're opening up cans of worms at every turn.
                              Now you've brought the resume up. Ok, there are at THAT point, two more
                              basic angles to touch on. First, you've got the idea that you can handle
                              yourself with your "philosophy on your resume" and point yourself toward how
                              you can apply yourself toward a given position, innovation, or task.
                              Otherwise, you can specifically look for those who are aware that they are
                              probably looking for someone with some type of "philosophy on their resume".
                              But secondly, there is no secondly because philosophizing is not a service
                              unless you turn it into one. Philosophy is for philosophies sake, and so not
                              marketable for money unless you apply it. You either have to help people
                              learn to think critically or expandably and so on like that (the application
                              that may be the closest thing to philosophy itself), or you have to go a
                              little farther out and apply yourself to other ventures - make yourself look
                              a little more well versed or versaTILE. You've got to have that
                              marketability, flexibility, applicability, whatever, of COURSE. SOMEthing
                              anyway! But of COURSE you're not going to get paid for philosophy itSELF.
                              You're going to get your paid sustenance and entertainment and other
                              luxeries from where your philosophy interacts with someone else's needs,
                              desires, enjoyment of themselves. So...strangely, if you stop and really
                              THINK about that last sentence I just wrote, all the sudden, philosophy is
                              what we all do. It's now just a matter of "how much" and "where" and "what
                              for" (or how we get to apply it). For goodness sake, dont let my candor
                              dilute the message here. It's really quite realistic. Philosophy is THOUGHT.
                              So...what do you do with YOUR thoughts? (Be a better ax-murderer? {shrug})

                              Dave


                              > eduard
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:15 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                              >
                              >
                              > > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers
                              > rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing department
                              > in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you, but
                              > what it does TO you that's important. Lorna
                              > >
                              > > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,
                              > >
                              > > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                              > > philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                              > > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers],
                              > Engineers,
                              > > etc...
                              > >
                              > > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                              > > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                              > > think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                              > > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                              > > saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                              > > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                              > > professions. That is a reality.
                              > >
                              > > eduard
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                              > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                              > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                              > > useful as
                              > > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                              > > natural sciences
                              > > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                              > > founded by
                              > > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and
                              > understanding.
                              > > (Do you
                              > > > know what those are called today?) University and
                              > > colleges. Are they
                              > > > just plain un-productive?
                              > > >
                              > > > Bryan Evan Junius
                              > > > Cambridge University, UK
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                              > > var lrec_target="_top"; var lrec_URL = new Array();
                              > lrec_URL[1] =
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                              > 31971.3069703.4522067.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705689216:HM/A=
                              > 1554463/R=1/1051894202+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://ww
                              > w.proflowers.com/rmi-unframed-url/http://www.proflowers.com/
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                              > upweb/S=1705689216:HM/A=1554463/R=2/id=altimgurl/*http://sho
                              > p.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?proflowers2+shopping:dmad/M=
                              > 231971.3069703.4522067.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705689216:HM/A
                              > =1554463/R=3/1051894202+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://w
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                            • Lorna Landry
                              Eduard, Ah, so true. I removed my philosophy degree from my resume because it was doing me little to no good. That, to me, does not say anything about the
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Eduard, Ah, so true. I removed my philosophy degree from my resume because it was doing me little to no good. That, to me, does not say anything about the value of the discipline itself, but it does say something about us as a society and what we value - the pursuit of money and power leave little time for philosophy. This is not a good thing. Lorna

                                yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Lorna,

                                I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is
                                important in that regard. But if "philosophy" is the only
                                thing on your resume, then it will not get you very far. If
                                you open up the jobs section of the newspaper there not
                                likely to be a section devoted to philosophers.

                                The same applies to Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. The Rabbi
                                is expected to have a day job. For good reason.

                                eduard

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:15 PM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                                > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers
                                rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing department
                                in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you, but
                                what it does TO you that's important. Lorna
                                >
                                > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,
                                >
                                > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                                > philosophers around. But what the world needs is Plumbers,
                                > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers],
                                Engineers,
                                > etc...
                                >
                                > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                                > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that we
                                > think of today. The demand for graduates of universities
                                > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am not
                                > saying that philosophy is something that has no value. It
                                > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                                > professions. That is a reality.
                                >
                                > eduard
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                                >
                                >
                                > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                                > useful as
                                > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                                > natural sciences
                                > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the school
                                > founded by
                                > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and
                                understanding.
                                > (Do you
                                > > know what those are called today?) University and
                                > colleges. Are they
                                > > just plain un-productive?
                                > >
                                > > Bryan Evan Junius
                                > > Cambridge University, UK
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                                >


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mark and Bev Tindall
                                ... Tell that to Socrates! Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                  eduard wrote:


                                  > Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
                                  > nation. It would be more benificial [to
                                  > themselves and others] if they were to get a
                                  > proper day job and leave the philosophizing to the > evening.



                                  Tell that to Socrates!


                                  Mark

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Mark and Bev Tindall
                                  ... My ex-Doctor in Sydney is a Polish Jew who escaped from Warsaw as a child. She married a German who was a Newspaper Editor in Poland. they came out to
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                    eduard wrote:


                                    > It is a reality. That is why we pay plumbers more > than some doctors. Philosophy is of value, but it > does not rank up there in society's priorities.


                                    My ex-Doctor in Sydney is a Polish Jew who escaped from Warsaw as a child. She married a German who was a Newspaper Editor in Poland. they came out to Australia and found their positions reversed as far as status. In Poland Newspaper Editors are revered and paid good money whereas Doctors rate low. In Australia Newspaper editors don't matter much and Doctors are revered.




                                    > A "proper day job" is anything that is
                                    > productive.


                                    Well that rules out politicians!


                                    Productivity is an OBJECTIVE measurement of worth based on earning power. Real worth cannot be measured. Who is of more worth to the world O J Simpson ( lots of productivity) or Ghandi (no day job ... no productivity that can be measured)????



                                    Mark

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Mark and Bev Tindall
                                    ... Excellent! This sums up the point of Existentialism. Existentialism is not proiductive to the economy. Big deal! It has other benefits! Mark [Non-text
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                      Lorna wrote:


                                      > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more
                                      > philosophers rather than relegating it to an ever
                                      > diminishing department in a university. It's not
                                      > what philosophy does FOR you, but what it does TO
                                      > you that's important.


                                      Excellent! This sums up the point of Existentialism. Existentialism is not proiductive to the economy. Big deal! It has other benefits!


                                      Mark


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Mark and Bev Tindall
                                      ... Only in an econiomic sense. You may be a far better person for studying philosophy. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                        eduard wrote:


                                        > But if "philosophy" is the only thing on your
                                        > resume, then it will not get you very far.


                                        Only in an econiomic sense. You may be a far better person for studying philosophy.



                                        Mark

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • yeoman
                                        Lorna, I agree ... I was only expressing the reality. eduard ... From: Lorna Landry To: Sent: Friday, May
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                          Lorna,

                                          I agree ... I was only expressing the reality.

                                          eduard

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:36 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                                          > Eduard, Ah, so true. I removed my philosophy degree from
                                          my resume because it was doing me little to no good. That,
                                          to me, does not say anything about the value of the
                                          discipline itself, but it does say something about us as a
                                          society and what we value - the pursuit of money and power
                                          leave little time for philosophy. This is not a good thing.
                                          Lorna
                                          >
                                          > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Lorna,
                                          >
                                          > I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is
                                          > important in that regard. But if "philosophy" is the only
                                          > thing on your resume, then it will not get you very far.
                                          If
                                          > you open up the jobs section of the newspaper there not
                                          > likely to be a section devoted to philosophers.
                                          >
                                          > The same applies to Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. The
                                          Rabbi
                                          > is expected to have a day job. For good reason.
                                          >
                                          > eduard
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:15 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers
                                          > rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing
                                          department
                                          > in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you,
                                          but
                                          > what it does TO you that's important. Lorna
                                          > >
                                          > > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                                          > > philosophers around. But what the world needs is
                                          Plumbers,
                                          > > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers],
                                          > Engineers,
                                          > > etc...
                                          > >
                                          > > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                                          > > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that
                                          we
                                          > > think of today. The demand for graduates of
                                          universities
                                          > > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am
                                          not
                                          > > saying that philosophy is something that has no value.
                                          It
                                          > > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                                          > > professions. That is a reality.
                                          > >
                                          > > eduard
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                                          > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                                          > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                                          > > useful as
                                          > > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                                          > > natural sciences
                                          > > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the
                                          school
                                          > > founded by
                                          > > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and
                                          > understanding.
                                          > > (Do you
                                          > > > know what those are called today?) University and
                                          > > colleges. Are they
                                          > > > just plain un-productive?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Bryan Evan Junius
                                          > > > Cambridge University, UK
                                          > >
                                          > >
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                                        • yeoman
                                          Mark, ... earning power. Real worth cannot be measured. Who is of more worth to the world O J Simpson ( lots of productivity) or Ghandi (no day job ... no
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                                            Mark,

                                            > Productivity is an OBJECTIVE measurement of worth based on
                                            earning power. Real worth cannot be measured. Who is of
                                            more worth to the world O J Simpson ( lots of productivity)
                                            or Ghandi (no day job ... no productivity that can be
                                            measured)????

                                            Your example shows more than anything how real worth can be
                                            measured. OJ is worth a heck of a lot more than Ghandi.
                                            Not that this is right, but it is a reality.

                                            I read in Yahoo that they are now going to save the
                                            UniBomber's cabin as a tourist attraction. Everything has
                                            some kind of worth that is measureable. You are only
                                            fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

                                            eduard
                                          • kolyan.rm
                                            ... Productivity is important indeed. But there are plenty of other professions that do not increase productivity directly, not to mention the jobless,
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > yeoman <yeoman@v...> wrote:
                                              > ---> Philosophers do not add to the productivity of the
                                              > nation.

                                              Productivity is important indeed. But there are plenty of other
                                              professions that do not increase productivity directly, not to
                                              mention the jobless, homeless, etc. Life would be too boring if
                                              everybody was hell-bent on money and consumerism. I would gladly pay
                                              someone for simply not being as primitive as I am, if we lived in a
                                              society where everyone had an economically productive job.

                                              > It would be more benificial [to themselves and
                                              > others] if they were to get a proper day job and leave the
                                              > philosophizing to the evening.

                                              Like in natural philosophy (science), there is a lot of paper and
                                              technical work associated with philosophy concering proper
                                              validation and publication of philosophical works. One certainly can
                                              be a philosopher by night, but if there is no publicity and peer-
                                              review, what is the point of philosophizing? All the ideas vanish
                                              into oblivion, and everybody starts from scratch.

                                              For the record, I am a natural scientist.

                                              Kolyan


                                              >
                                              > eduard
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Mark and Bev Tindall
                                              ... You are entitled to your opinion. I suggest you check the archives. ... This IS an EXISTENTIALIST list and Christian EXISTENTIALISM is a form of
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 3, 2003
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Harry wrote:


                                                > Well, more and more I get convinced that ...


                                                You are entitled to your opinion. I suggest you check the archives.


                                                > I think that would have to come primarily from you, > Mark. As you are the one who
                                                > started the whole discussion in the first place.


                                                This IS an EXISTENTIALIST list and Christian EXISTENTIALISM is a form of EXistentialism. Get an education and read the basic texts that are widely available just as I studied Sartre and co at University.




                                                > First you will have to


                                                I don't 'HAVE TO' do anything. Respond to what I post or don't respond. It's your choice. I trust it won't be any problem for you.


                                                > We had all better stop with it then (much like Susan > has already proposed) and work on other problems.


                                                Christian EXISTENTIALISM is a valid form of EXISTENTIASLISM and I will continue presenting the FULL scope of Christian EXISTENTIALISM.

                                                If you wish to complain don't be a coward and go behind my back. I trust it won't be any problem for you.



                                                Mark

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • yeoman
                                                Kolyan, hi ... nice to see you here ... ... paper and ... certainly can ... and peer- ... vanish ... system for philosophy. That is the case in the science
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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                                                  Kolyan,

                                                  hi ... nice to see you here ...

                                                  > Like in natural philosophy (science), there is a lot of
                                                  paper and
                                                  > technical work associated with philosophy concering proper
                                                  > validation and publication of philosophical works. One
                                                  certainly can
                                                  > be a philosopher by night, but if there is no publicity
                                                  and peer-
                                                  > review, what is the point of philosophizing? All the ideas
                                                  vanish
                                                  > into oblivion, and everybody starts from scratch.

                                                  ---> I am wondering if there actually is a peer review
                                                  system for philosophy. That is the case in the science
                                                  field, but it seems to me that anyone can produce a
                                                  philosophy paper and I doubt that it is prior reviewed by
                                                  the community. But then I could be wrong.

                                                  The bit about the day job and night job is simply to say
                                                  that if you are going to be a philosopher, then you need to
                                                  have some means of support. The fact is that philosophy by
                                                  itself does not have a huge demand in society, unless you
                                                  happen to be lucky and somehow manage to strike a nerve and
                                                  get your book published.

                                                  eduard
                                                • Lorna Landry
                                                  Eduard, Attitudes can change reality. Lorna yeoman wrote:Lorna, I agree ... I was only expressing the reality. eduard ... From: Lorna
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 4, 2003
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Eduard, Attitudes can change reality. Lorna

                                                    yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Lorna,

                                                    I agree ... I was only expressing the reality.

                                                    eduard

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:36 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                                                    > Eduard, Ah, so true. I removed my philosophy degree from
                                                    my resume because it was doing me little to no good. That,
                                                    to me, does not say anything about the value of the
                                                    discipline itself, but it does say something about us as a
                                                    society and what we value - the pursuit of money and power
                                                    leave little time for philosophy. This is not a good thing.
                                                    Lorna
                                                    >
                                                    > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Lorna,
                                                    >
                                                    > I do not disagree with what you are saying. Philosophy is
                                                    > important in that regard. But if "philosophy" is the only
                                                    > thing on your resume, then it will not get you very far.
                                                    If
                                                    > you open up the jobs section of the newspaper there not
                                                    > likely to be a section devoted to philosophers.
                                                    >
                                                    > The same applies to Rabbi's in the Jewish faith. The
                                                    Rabbi
                                                    > is expected to have a day job. For good reason.
                                                    >
                                                    > eduard
                                                    >
                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:15 PM
                                                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > > Eduard, I disagree - the world needs more philosophers
                                                    > rather than relegating it to an ever diminishing
                                                    department
                                                    > in a university. It's not what philosophy does FOR you,
                                                    but
                                                    > what it does TO you that's important. Lorna
                                                    > >
                                                    > > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Bryan,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Yes ... they are unproductive. There are all sorts of
                                                    > > philosophers around. But what the world needs is
                                                    Plumbers,
                                                    > > Doctors, Lawyers [well perhaps not more lawyers],
                                                    > Engineers,
                                                    > > etc...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > If you will recall, the Elyceum was also into natural
                                                    > > philosophy [science], not just the philosophizing that
                                                    we
                                                    > > think of today. The demand for graduates of
                                                    universities
                                                    > > and colleges is highest for natural philosophy. I am
                                                    not
                                                    > > saying that philosophy is something that has no value.
                                                    It
                                                    > > just does not have a high value in comparison to other
                                                    > > professions. That is a reality.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > eduard
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > > From: "bjunius30" <bjunius30@...>
                                                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:23 PM
                                                    > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > A materialist point of view, Eduard. And philosophy is
                                                    > > useful as
                                                    > > > logic was once useful in building the foundations of
                                                    > > natural sciences
                                                    > > > to what they are today. Reminder: Elyceum was the
                                                    school
                                                    > > founded by
                                                    > > > philosophers for all who wanted wisdom and
                                                    > understanding.
                                                    > > (Do you
                                                    > > > know what those are called today?) University and
                                                    > > colleges. Are they
                                                    > > > just plain un-productive?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Bryan Evan Junius
                                                    > > > Cambridge University, UK
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
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                                                  • Lorna Landry
                                                    Eduard, It s the fool who does not believe in worth that cannot be measured. OJ worth a heck of alot more than Ghandhi?? Maybe financially better off, but
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                                                      Eduard, It's the fool who does not believe in worth that cannot be measured. OJ worth a heck of alot more than Ghandhi?? Maybe financially better off, but certainly not of more worth! Come on! Lorna

                                                      yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Mark,

                                                      > Productivity is an OBJECTIVE measurement of worth based on
                                                      earning power. Real worth cannot be measured. Who is of
                                                      more worth to the world O J Simpson ( lots of productivity)
                                                      or Ghandi (no day job ... no productivity that can be
                                                      measured)????

                                                      Your example shows more than anything how real worth can be
                                                      measured. OJ is worth a heck of a lot more than Ghandi.
                                                      Not that this is right, but it is a reality.

                                                      I read in Yahoo that they are now going to save the
                                                      UniBomber's cabin as a tourist attraction. Everything has
                                                      some kind of worth that is measureable. You are only
                                                      fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

                                                      eduard


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                                                    • Lorna Landry
                                                      Eduard, What are you talking about?? Philosophy papers reviewed by the community? You mean ideas should be approved by someone before they are allowed to
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                                                        Eduard, What are you talking about?? Philosophy papers reviewed by the community? You mean ideas should be approved by someone before they are allowed to explored?? Please explain what you are getting at here. I hope anyone can produce a philopshy paper. Lorna

                                                        yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Kolyan,

                                                        hi ... nice to see you here ...

                                                        > Like in natural philosophy (science), there is a lot of
                                                        paper and
                                                        > technical work associated with philosophy concering proper
                                                        > validation and publication of philosophical works. One
                                                        certainly can
                                                        > be a philosopher by night, but if there is no publicity
                                                        and peer-
                                                        > review, what is the point of philosophizing? All the ideas
                                                        vanish
                                                        > into oblivion, and everybody starts from scratch.

                                                        ---> I am wondering if there actually is a peer review
                                                        system for philosophy. That is the case in the science
                                                        field, but it seems to me that anyone can produce a
                                                        philosophy paper and I doubt that it is prior reviewed by
                                                        the community. But then I could be wrong.

                                                        The bit about the day job and night job is simply to say
                                                        that if you are going to be a philosopher, then you need to
                                                        have some means of support. The fact is that philosophy by
                                                        itself does not have a huge demand in society, unless you
                                                        happen to be lucky and somehow manage to strike a nerve and
                                                        get your book published.

                                                        eduard


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                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • yeoman
                                                        Lorna, The worth of people are measured everyday. Perhaps not in units of kilograms or whatever, but measured none the less. You are doing it yourself with
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                                                          Lorna,

                                                          The "worth" of people are measured everyday. Perhaps not in
                                                          units of kilograms or whatever, but measured none the less.
                                                          You are doing it yourself with respect to Gandhi. How do
                                                          you know that he is worth more than OJ??

                                                          I think the problem here is in the word "measurement".
                                                          Perhaps the better word is to "size" people up, although we
                                                          often use the word "measure" in this respect, even though it
                                                          is a subjective measurement.

                                                          Do you ever walk into a party and "measure" up the women
                                                          there?? I am not being sexist in this question, as I always
                                                          measure up the men ... and I suppose the women as well ...
                                                          although for different reasons.

                                                          People have specific "worth". Although philosophers should
                                                          be worth more, the reality is that they do not have that
                                                          much value in our society. And that applies to philosophy
                                                          as well.

                                                          eduard

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:22 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Value of Philosophy


                                                          > Eduard, It's the fool who does not believe in worth that
                                                          cannot be measured. OJ worth a heck of alot more than
                                                          Ghandhi?? Maybe financially better off, but certainly not of
                                                          more worth! Come on! Lorna
                                                        • yeoman
                                                          Lorna, I was asking the question rhetorically in response to Kolyan. Science papers are subject to peer review before being published. I did not think that
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 4, 2003
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Lorna,

                                                            I was asking the question rhetorically in response to
                                                            Kolyan. Science papers are subject to peer review before
                                                            being published. I did not think that the same applied to
                                                            philosophy.

                                                            But in even in science there isn't an approval system before
                                                            someone is "allowed" to explore some subject. The review
                                                            comes into the publishing stage and specifically for the
                                                            respected periodicals.

                                                            eduard

                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:24 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Value of Philosophy


                                                            > Eduard, What are you talking about?? Philosophy papers
                                                            reviewed by the community? You mean ideas should be approved
                                                            by someone before they are allowed to explored?? Please
                                                            explain what you are getting at here. I hope anyone can
                                                            produce a philopshy paper. Lorna
                                                            >
                                                            > yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:Kolyan,
                                                            >
                                                            > hi ... nice to see you here ...
                                                            >
                                                            > > Like in natural philosophy (science), there is a lot of
                                                            > paper and
                                                            > > technical work associated with philosophy concering
                                                            proper
                                                            > > validation and publication of philosophical works. One
                                                            > certainly can
                                                            > > be a philosopher by night, but if there is no publicity
                                                            > and peer-
                                                            > > review, what is the point of philosophizing? All the
                                                            ideas
                                                            > vanish
                                                            > > into oblivion, and everybody starts from scratch.
                                                            >
                                                            > ---> I am wondering if there actually is a peer review
                                                            > system for philosophy. That is the case in the science
                                                            > field, but it seems to me that anyone can produce a
                                                            > philosophy paper and I doubt that it is prior reviewed by
                                                            > the community. But then I could be wrong.
                                                            >
                                                            > The bit about the day job and night job is simply to say
                                                            > that if you are going to be a philosopher, then you need
                                                            to
                                                            > have some means of support. The fact is that philosophy
                                                            by
                                                            > itself does not have a huge demand in society, unless you
                                                            > happen to be lucky and somehow manage to strike a nerve
                                                            and
                                                            > get your book published.
                                                            >
                                                            > eduard
                                                            >
                                                            >
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                                                          • Lorna Landry
                                                            Eduard, yeoman wrote: Lorna, The worth of people are measured everyday. Perhaps not in units of kilograms or whatever, but measured
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                                                              Eduard,

                                                              yeoman <yeoman@...> wrote:
                                                              Lorna,

                                                              The "worth" of people are measured everyday. Perhaps not in
                                                              units of kilograms or whatever, but measured none the less.
                                                              You are doing it yourself with respect to Gandhi. How do
                                                              you know that he is worth more than OJ??

                                                              LL******I just know it, without needing a system of measurement to prove it to me. Perhaps its a subjective value judgement on my part based on their actions in the world. Gandhi has taught me about love and sacrifice - OJ has taught me nothing but the what the face of hollywood debauchery looks like. That IS something, but surely I have the existential right to choose one as more valuable than the other?******

                                                              I think the problem here is in the word "measurement".
                                                              Perhaps the better word is to "size" people up, although we
                                                              often use the word "measure" in this respect, even though it
                                                              is a subjective measurement.

                                                              Do you ever walk into a party and "measure" up the women
                                                              there??

                                                              LL*******Interesting you say 'women'. I think I size up the people in general, separating them into men and women next. I don't know. My existence is such that I cannot escape being with others. Aren't we all just sizing each other up all the time? Me a conscoius event and you as well?*******

                                                              I am not being sexist in this question, as I always
                                                              measure up the men ... and I suppose the women as well ...
                                                              although for different reasons.

                                                              People have specific "worth". Although philosophers should
                                                              be worth more, the reality is that they do not have that
                                                              much value in our society.

                                                              LL*****No. The reality is that the value of philosophical pursuits is sadly not recognized by our consumer driven society. They have more value than I think you are willing to recognize. Worth, I repeat, is not always measurable.



                                                              Lorna



                                                              And that applies to philosophy
                                                              as well.

                                                              eduard

                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                              From: "Lorna Landry" <lornalandry@...>
                                                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                                              Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:22 PM
                                                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Value of Philosophy


                                                              > Eduard, It's the fool who does not believe in worth that
                                                              cannot be measured. OJ worth a heck of alot more than
                                                              Ghandhi?? Maybe financially better off, but certainly not of
                                                              more worth! Come on! Lorna



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                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            • yeoman
                                                              Lorna, ... measurement to prove it to me. Perhaps its a subjective value judgement on my part based on their actions in the world. Gandhi has taught me about
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                                                                Lorna,

                                                                > LL******I just know it, without needing a system of
                                                                measurement to prove it to me. Perhaps its a subjective
                                                                value judgement on my part based on their actions in the
                                                                world. Gandhi has taught me about love and sacrifice - OJ
                                                                has taught me nothing but the what the face of hollywood
                                                                debauchery looks like. That IS something, but surely I have
                                                                the existential right to choose one as more valuable than
                                                                the other?******

                                                                ---> Of course you have the right to choose one as more
                                                                valuable than the other. My point was that we do measure
                                                                people, and unfortuately OJ comes out on top as far as the
                                                                entertainment business is concerned.

                                                                > LL*******Interesting you say 'women'. I think I size up
                                                                the people in general, separating them into men and women
                                                                next. I don't know. My existence is such that I cannot
                                                                escape being with others. Aren't we all just sizing each
                                                                other up all the time? Me a conscoius event and you as
                                                                well?*******

                                                                ---> I dont size up people in general first. People in
                                                                general do not pose a threat. One tends to look into the
                                                                crowd to see who appears to be the brightest and then you
                                                                can mentally run them down because their shoes are not
                                                                shined or something equivalent.

                                                                > LL*****No. The reality is that the value of philosophical
                                                                pursuits is sadly not recognized by our consumer driven
                                                                society. They have more value than I think you are willing
                                                                to recognize. Worth, I repeat, is not always measurable.

                                                                ---> Philosophy has value, but not to our consumer driven
                                                                society in general.

                                                                eduard
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