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Re: [existlist] Re: God & Morality

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  • David Leon
    Hold on. Let me make another sidebar to nothingness, as I ve been doing. Nobody follows me anyway, or I haven t the time to care all the time, so off I go.
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 29, 2003
      Hold on. Let me make another sidebar to nothingness, as I've been doing.
      Nobody follows me anyway, or I haven't the time to care all the time, so off
      I go. Besides, I've been tasked trying to learn how to teach little pieces
      of what I've learned, and it's kinda wierd to make some adjustments, given
      what I've learned recently that has set me up to be able to start relating
      to people more patiently and realistically and take small steps and things,
      and not be encumbered by the huge steps that I myself might think
      about...and so I need a break, and I just want to ramble, even if it's all
      lost on everyone and gets named "flow-of-consciousness" and "Oh well, I
      guess he's just high" (gotten a little bit trite). So, let's see...

      Pre-destination and free will.
      Ok, in a way, *I* accept a "pre-determination", as Chris brought up here (or
      Wyatt or CS, or what he likes to be referred to as, if anything :) ). But,
      it's pre-determination, if it so is, that does not threaten "free will". In
      such a picture, "free will" can be seen as "the experience", and
      "pre-determination" as the script. It's really quite overly simple; it's
      just that other issues come up associated with the whole image, which
      perhaps most all people haven't resolved or explored, so they might have
      problems with all the outer details, at least more than I now do. ..Anyway.
      So, it's like, if we could turn the picture of actors on a stage around
      backwards to what it is, then we could get this. What if the stage-acting
      came first, and the awareness came second? Well..then maybe we'd have "life"
      instead of "acting".

      So, if our experience of living starts, instead, mostly with our being like
      the actor getting "lost in his role" for a moment or a while, then it's not
      as if it's been our duty to BE the actor and to TRY to powerfully get lost
      in our roles, because we're already there. Instead, it is interesting, when
      OFF the stage of theatre, and ON the stage of life, to see it become a part
      of our role to be aware of the script, to watch people play their parts.
      This is as per the "people-watchers", or whenever any of us people-watch to
      some extent, and then the "philosophers"...the "playwrights", the "poets"
      perhaps, and some of the authors in general and the occasional speaker. Or,
      as I hinted, whenever any of us do find little tastes of being these.

      Eventually, there is that realization, for those who start to grab it, that
      a play (or, yeah sure, "a movie") is not interesting because it grabs you
      into it--into what is going on upon the stage--but because the STAGE is a
      picture of life. It's also like a form of role-reversal...we are no longer
      "playing" ourselves..for we are watching. People many times think (and
      perhaps "fear") that a "play" breaks down if a person "analyzes" it. After
      all, "One simply MUST allow himself to be divinely swept up into the play!".
      But that's not ultimately true. It's for the silly characters, and the silly
      character in each of us, trying to pretend that the play SHOULD be lived and
      that we are all supposed to want to jump out of our seats with
      murder-inspiring levels of emotion, trying to make it seem like it is
      actually our CHOICE to snap back to reality someday. Well..ok...and take
      your line of crystal meth on the way out the door of the theatre, too.

      But, really, the stage can be a two-tiered representation, and not all the
      enjoyment to be had is in pretending that we are the grand actors on a
      stage, or part of their drama, and not even is all the enjoyment to be had
      in seeing them also as the glamorous people off stage or on, who get to
      sweep us all up. But there is also realizing the STAGE while looking at the
      play, and seeing ..that perhaps we do not need glamour, for we already WERE
      the players.

      Anyway, I may be filling my role (pre-determination), but do I, did I, know
      all that it is? (free will - the experience of "choices" as we learn the
      next new thing for each of us).

      I suppose this goes back, once again, to a clarification that has come up
      with Eduard and I. I had been making the point to Eduard, that "impact" is
      not an issue with God - impact on us or on our lives. In other words,
      ultimately, "impact" as if it were to destroy our experience, even though we
      already find ourselves experiencing it (a funny thing that would be). And
      so, in other words, why does a script threaten the unfolding of a play? We
      keep trying to see these things as if God is to threaten our "free will", or
      the experiences that we already have, if you want to be street-talkin'
      frank..or else that our "free will" must threaten this God. As if...either
      way, we all fear that life would become too much of a nightmare if we
      awakened from the beautiful bits of a dream that we still have might have
      left to hold on to. The christians, the buddhists, the atheists, the
      agnostics, the non-theists, the "stop calling me names"es, the jewish
      people, the chinese, indian, american, latin, greek, african, muslim,
      arabian, northern, island, pacific, russian people, and all the people that
      you disagree with on various levels, who dont know what they're talking
      about.... And we all sit wondering if the dream might break open if we
      rustled the curtains too much ...if our dramas might bust open on some
      nightmare of a "reality", if we're not cautious enough ...as if there could
      be a drama without a stage ...as if..without the drama there would BE no
      stage.

      You want to know the "true meaning" of "Where can I hide from your presence,
      God?". I didn't think so. But there it is anyway...only if you were to FEEL
      what I just said, without having to think at ALL, and then you could
      say..."yeah" and "right on" and "I know what you mean". To me, that's my
      spirituality. For me, real christianity is the same as that, but nevermind.
      And if you can get it somewhere else, out of a drug or in some "religion",
      or even science, go for it. I haven't seen it.

      Now what? Am I proselytizing? What's the difference between this and sharing
      some other angle of philosophical truth? We have to experience them all to
      know them all.

      It's ok if you're not that broadminded. But it makes sense to me. Thanks for
      letting me ramble, not that anyone let me or will or "should" even read
      this.

      'day,
      Dave



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "poetcsw" <existlist1@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 4:37 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: God & Morality


      > Ethical systems of any sort are dependent upon the cultural
      > experiences and known history of a society.
      >
      > "Morality" for anyone religious is based upon his or her faith. As a
      > result, I cannot understand how a politician or businessman can claim
      > to make decisions apart from faith -- since morality is a complete
      > thing, not compartmentalized.
      >
      > Existentialists would suggest that to be "true" to one's faith, one
      > would have to follow the beliefs of that faith and the doctrines.
      > Hence, a Genuine Catholic would follow the Pope, Cardinals, and
      > Bishops. A Genuine Jew would adhere to the Laws (Leviticus in
      > Christianity, I believe, has most of them detailed). A Genuine Mormon
      > would follow the President and Elders. A Genuine Muslim would follow
      > the Prophet, not any man claiming to be cleric (except within Shia sects).
      >
      > Yet, within your faith, existentialists would argue there is still
      > freedom and choice. Islam and Judiasm are quite open-ended and vague
      > in many cultural areas. (The Qu'ran is not a "text" like the Bible.)
      > Jewish tradition is a never-ending exploration of the Laws and how
      > they adapt to modern life.
      >
      > Morality is influenced by your culture, including its religion.
      > Therefore, a Creator might be central or might not be.
      >
      > Of the six billion people on earth, 1.9 billion are Christian in some
      > form. 1.8 to 2.1 billion (depending on source) are Muslim. That means
      > nearly 2 billion other people are "neither" major monotheistic faith.
      > What is the source of their morals? How are ethical systems created in
      > the absence of "one" source for principles?
      >
      > (As a sidebar: there are less than 14 million Jews, and almost half
      > are "secular" Jews, meaning they are culturally Jewish but not
      > religious in practice. They are proud of the heritage.)
      >
      > Faith matters a great deal in morality and ethics. All we have to do
      > is consider the death penalty, abortion, drug use, business hours,
      > decency laws... each is influenced by religion as well as secular
      > aspects of culture.
      >
      > Yet, no matter the culture, the faith, or the laws, one can still
      > believe in self-determination, free will, and existential quandries.
      > Of course, there are those with faiths that do not accept free will
      > and suppose a pre-determination, but that is a true minority.
      >
      > Ethics are an interesting study, and quandry, since we cannot "escape"
      > the sources of our beliefs which we tend to codify as laws.
      >
      > - CSW
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
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      >
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      >
      >
      >
    • Harry JMK
      ... Hi Mark, Yeah, and it also helps to convincingly show how the proverbs were actually used in those days (Middle Ages and Renaissance, both huge epochs of
      Message 2 of 28 , May 1, 2003
        At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Mark wrote:

        > >> What is Memento Mori and Carpe Diem? Perhaps an
        > >> explanation of that will clarify the link to
        > >> Karma. I'm interested to know.
        > >
        > > Well, much to my chagrin :-) I had to search the
        > > Net for almost an hour to have some decent
        > > webpages describing the lot.
        >
        >
        >It helps to know Latin. ;-)

        Hi Mark,

        Yeah, and it also helps to convincingly show how the proverbs were actually
        used in those days (Middle Ages and Renaissance, both huge epochs of
        history), because reading Shari's question gave me the impression that
        there wasn't any recognition of them with her. Perhaps nor with you?
        Anyway: my my, was I disappointed in how little there was about this on the
        Net! In my view they are of great relevance for the discussion in Shari's
        essay, hence I did my best to give her sound literature about it.

        - Harry -
      • Harry JMK
        ... Yes please (book)! Next to that I m highly interested in the Indian traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth, and how and if so in
        Message 3 of 28 , May 1, 2003
          At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Shari wrote:

          >[..] Affirmative Action [..] Let me know if you’d like some background
          >information on this.

          :) Yes please!

          >Karma ­ [..]
          >I may find the time at some stage to write some excerpts from a book and
          >from there on, questions may be helpful if gaining more understanding is
          >the objective. Remind me.

          Yes please (book)! Next to that I'm highly interested in the Indian
          traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth, and how
          and if so in what way they are relevant to you.

          >The source of our moral intuition/moral knowledge - 'Gene-inspired
          >altruism and associated virtues perhaps?' [..] Associated virtues I’m
          >not sure about.

          Altruism and associated Virtues. A quote from the 'ADFAS Guide to Hell'
          which I have discussed before:
          --------------------
          No epoch laid such stress on death and the hereafter as the Middle
          Ages. The popular preaching of memento mori swelled into a sombre chorus
          that rang throughout Europe, and the awful tortures awaiting the sinner
          were animatedly described. In Hell the dammed hung by their tongues from
          trees of fire, the impenitent burned in furnaces, the wicked fell into the
          black and turgid waters of an abyss and sank to a depth proportionate to
          their sins: fornicators to the nostrils, persecutors of their fellow men up
          to the eyebrows. Some were swallowed by monstrous fish, some gnawed by
          demons, tormented by serpents, by fire, burning sands or ice, or fruits
          hanging forever out of reach of the starving. In Hell man was naked,
          nameless and forgotten. No wonder salvation was important and the Day of
          Judgement present in every mind. It was carved over the doorway of every
          cathedral, the numerous sinners roped together and led off by devils to a
          flaming cauldron, while angels led the far fewer elect – those who
          presumably had led the other sort of ‘good life’ – to bliss in the opposite
          direction.
          The medieval vision of hell is also vividly portrayed in Dante
          Alighieri’s Inferno – the first part of The Divine Comedy. It is probably
          the most recognized secular depiction of Hell. The table to the right gives
          the basic outline.
          So how did you avoid this terrible fate? By practicing Virtue.
          Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be
          prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice – the Cardinal Virtues. Early
          Christian theologians adopted these virtues and deemed them to be equally
          important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
          St. Paul defined the three Theological Virtues; love, which was the
          essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church authorities
          believed the theological virtues were not natural to man in his fallen
          state, but were conferred at Baptism.
          Then we have the Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness,
          abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence. These were derived
          from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem written by
          Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is said to protect one
          against the temptation to practice the Seven Deadly Sins: humility against
          pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity against
          lust, patience against anger, liberality against covetousness, and
          diligence against sloth.
          The Seven Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues: prudence,
          temperance, fortitude and justice, with a variation of the theological
          virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
          Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian Church
          assembled a list of Seven Corporal Works of Mercy: feed the hungry, give
          drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked, visit
          the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead. Something there for
          everyone, surely?
          --------------------
          Altruism for short. End quote.

          Ok, let me explain further. 29/04 I wrote:

          > >The major challenge in stating good acts are independent of God
          >
          >Maybe... Altruism (which bundles together a lot of doing good) is lately
          >scientifically stated as being beneficial to the survival of the species.
          >So maybe morality and acting accordingly is more a matter of gene commands
          >than divine commands... and that Morality is just the nice priesthood power
          >dress all around it?

          Now you wonder:

          >“Gene-inspired” is a difficult argument to put forth from my perspective
          >in philosophy. But as a suggestion away from philosophy, I’d say, yes.
          >Morality can be argued from those grounds.

          Well, you see, perhaps 'gene-inspired commands' are just the scientific
          explanation of 'divine commands'? But, even more interestingly is perhaps
          the outlook that Morality as 'prescibed' by religion or the Churches (see
          quote above) is no more than a priesthood power dress all around it, an
          invention by a select few to gain power over the masses... In other words:
          is morality a concept which was there before religion or is it something
          that came forth of religion (and thus became Morality)?

          If it was there before religion than it can be proven that it belongs to
          man's basic nature and thus fundamental need (and reach!) in order to be
          able to survive as a person, as a family, as a species. Especially when
          also linked to the genes commanding certain behaviour for the good of the
          species. That would be another sound support to the conclusion of your
          essay (quote 'that the existence of God is relevant, but not necessary for
          moral philosophy' end quote).

          If it was there but as a consequence of religion than it's a very different
          matter. Indeed, man escaped babarism only when creating and adopting
          culture, of which shamanism and religion where key components, and with
          that ethics and beauty/esthetics, also in the appreciation of the human
          spirit. Well, you can fill in the rest, I trust... :))

          >shari

          - Harry -
        • shari hyder
          Harry, I found a good source in Gary Zukav’s “Seat of the Soul.” His first book was “The Dancing Wu Li Masters” – all to do with quantum physics.
          Message 4 of 28 , May 1, 2003
            Harry,

            I found a good source in Gary Zukav�s �Seat of the Soul.� His first book
            was �The Dancing Wu Li Masters� � all to do with quantum physics.

            Another is �Great Thinkers of the Eastern World� � Ian P McGreal
            (Editor).

            In relation to how it�s relevant to me, I�ll e-mail you off-list. The
            geriatric members :) :) of this group have an inkling already, so I�ll
            spare them. Yeah, I�m very considerate that way.

            Not wearing a blue shirt,
            shari




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          • thebohemian7
            Before I finished reading your quote on Hell, I automatically thought of Dante. I think his picture of Hell well fits into the medieval vision. And I m also
            Message 5 of 28 , May 11, 2003
              Before I finished reading your quote on Hell, I automatically thought
              of Dante. I think his picture of Hell well fits into the medieval
              vision.

              And I'm also very interested in karma and Hinduism. I'm just reading
              the Upanishads, very poetical and deep, in my opinion.


              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Harry JMK <ti083866@t...> wrote:
              > At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Shari wrote:
              >
              > >[..] Affirmative Action [..] Let me know if you'd like some
              background
              > >information on this.
              >
              > :) Yes please!
              >
              > >Karma ­ [..]
              > >I may find the time at some stage to write some excerpts from a
              book and
              > >from there on, questions may be helpful if gaining more
              understanding is
              > >the objective. Remind me.
              >
              > Yes please (book)! Next to that I'm highly interested in the Indian
              > traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth,
              and how
              > and if so in what way they are relevant to you.
              >
              > >The source of our moral intuition/moral knowledge - 'Gene-inspired
              > >altruism and associated virtues perhaps?' [..] Associated virtues
              I'm
              > >not sure about.
              >
              > Altruism and associated Virtues. A quote from the 'ADFAS Guide to
              Hell'
              > which I have discussed before:
              > --------------------
              > No epoch laid such stress on death and the hereafter as the
              Middle
              > Ages. The popular preaching of memento mori swelled into a sombre
              chorus
              > that rang throughout Europe, and the awful tortures awaiting the
              sinner
              > were animatedly described. In Hell the dammed hung by their tongues
              from
              > trees of fire, the impenitent burned in furnaces, the wicked fell
              into the
              > black and turgid waters of an abyss and sank to a depth
              proportionate to
              > their sins: fornicators to the nostrils, persecutors of their
              fellow men up
              > to the eyebrows. Some were swallowed by monstrous fish, some gnawed
              by
              > demons, tormented by serpents, by fire, burning sands or ice, or
              fruits
              > hanging forever out of reach of the starving. In Hell man was
              naked,
              > nameless and forgotten. No wonder salvation was important and the
              Day of
              > Judgement present in every mind. It was carved over the doorway of
              every
              > cathedral, the numerous sinners roped together and led off by
              devils to a
              > flaming cauldron, while angels led the far fewer elect – those who
              > presumably had led the other sort of `good life' – to bliss in the
              opposite
              > direction.
              > The medieval vision of hell is also vividly portrayed in Dante
              > Alighieri's Inferno – the first part of The Divine Comedy. It is
              probably
              > the most recognized secular depiction of Hell. The table to the
              right gives
              > the basic outline.
              > So how did you avoid this terrible fate? By practicing Virtue.
              > Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be
              > prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice – the Cardinal
              Virtues. Early
              > Christian theologians adopted these virtues and deemed them to be
              equally
              > important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
              > St. Paul defined the three Theological Virtues; love, which was
              the
              > essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church
              authorities
              > believed the theological virtues were not natural to man in his
              fallen
              > state, but were conferred at Baptism.
              > Then we have the Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness,
              > abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence. These were
              derived
              > from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem written
              by
              > Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is said to protect
              one
              > against the temptation to practice the Seven Deadly Sins: humility
              against
              > pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity
              against
              > lust, patience against anger, liberality against covetousness, and
              > diligence against sloth.
              > The Seven Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues:
              prudence,
              > temperance, fortitude and justice, with a variation of the
              theological
              > virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
              > Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian
              Church
              > assembled a list of Seven Corporal Works of Mercy: feed the hungry,
              give
              > drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked,
              visit
              > the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead. Something there
              for
              > everyone, surely?
              > --------------------
              > Altruism for short. End quote.
              >
              > Ok, let me explain further. 29/04 I wrote:
              >
              > > >The major challenge in stating good acts are independent of God
              > >
              > >Maybe... Altruism (which bundles together a lot of doing good) is
              lately
              > >scientifically stated as being beneficial to the survival of the
              species.
              > >So maybe morality and acting accordingly is more a matter of gene
              commands
              > >than divine commands... and that Morality is just the nice
              priesthood power
              > >dress all around it?
              >
              > Now you wonder:
              >
              > >"Gene-inspired" is a difficult argument to put forth from my
              perspective
              > >in philosophy. But as a suggestion away from philosophy, I'd say,
              yes.
              > >Morality can be argued from those grounds.
              >
              > Well, you see, perhaps 'gene-inspired commands' are just the
              scientific
              > explanation of 'divine commands'? But, even more interestingly is
              perhaps
              > the outlook that Morality as 'prescibed' by religion or the
              Churches (see
              > quote above) is no more than a priesthood power dress all around
              it, an
              > invention by a select few to gain power over the masses... In other
              words:
              > is morality a concept which was there before religion or is it
              something
              > that came forth of religion (and thus became Morality)?
              >
              > If it was there before religion than it can be proven that it
              belongs to
              > man's basic nature and thus fundamental need (and reach!) in order
              to be
              > able to survive as a person, as a family, as a species. Especially
              when
              > also linked to the genes commanding certain behaviour for the good
              of the
              > species. That would be another sound support to the conclusion of
              your
              > essay (quote 'that the existence of God is relevant, but not
              necessary for
              > moral philosophy' end quote).
              >
              > If it was there but as a consequence of religion than it's a very
              different
              > matter. Indeed, man escaped babarism only when creating and
              adopting
              > culture, of which shamanism and religion where key components, and
              with
              > that ethics and beauty/esthetics, also in the appreciation of the
              human
              > spirit. Well, you can fill in the rest, I trust... :))
              >
              > >shari
              >
              > - Harry -
            • shari hyder
              Bohemian, A rhapsody in parts, you will find. :-) You follow Schopenhauer’s steps. He read the Upanishads everyday. It is most unfortunate for me that I come
              Message 6 of 28 , May 11, 2003
                Bohemian,

                A rhapsody in parts, you will find. :-) You follow Schopenhauer�s steps.
                He read the Upanishads everyday. It is most unfortunate for me that I
                come across people with interest in Schopenhauer when my academic
                necessities lie elsewhere.

                shari

                -----Original Message-----
                From: thebohemian7 [mailto:thebohemian7@...]
                Sent: Monday, 12 May 2003 4:36 p.m.
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality

                Before I finished reading your quote on Hell, I automatically thought
                of Dante. I think his picture of Hell well fits into the medieval
                vision.

                And I'm also very interested in karma and Hinduism. I'm just reading
                the Upanishads, very poetical and deep, in my opinion.


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Harry JMK <ti083866@t...> wrote:
                > At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Shari wrote:
                >
                > >[..] Affirmative Action [..] Let me know if you'd like some
                background
                > >information on this.
                >
                > :) Yes please!
                >
                > >Karma � [..]
                > >I may find the time at some stage to write some excerpts from a
                book and
                > >from there on, questions may be helpful if gaining more
                understanding is
                > >the objective. Remind me.
                >
                > Yes please (book)! Next to that I'm highly interested in the Indian
                > traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth,
                and how
                > and if so in what way they are relevant to you.
                >
                > >The source of our moral intuition/moral knowledge - 'Gene-inspired
                > >altruism and associated virtues perhaps?' [..] Associated virtues
                I'm
                > >not sure about.
                >
                > Altruism and associated Virtues. A quote from the 'ADFAS Guide to
                Hell'
                > which I have discussed before:
                > --------------------
                > No epoch laid such stress on death and the hereafter as the
                Middle
                > Ages. The popular preaching of memento mori swelled into a sombre
                chorus
                > that rang throughout Europe, and the awful tortures awaiting the
                sinner
                > were animatedly described. In Hell the dammed hung by their tongues
                from
                > trees of fire, the impenitent burned in furnaces, the wicked fell
                into the
                > black and turgid waters of an abyss and sank to a depth
                proportionate to
                > their sins: fornicators to the nostrils, persecutors of their
                fellow men up
                > to the eyebrows. Some were swallowed by monstrous fish, some gnawed
                by
                > demons, tormented by serpents, by fire, burning sands or ice, or
                fruits
                > hanging forever out of reach of the starving. In Hell man was
                naked,
                > nameless and forgotten. No wonder salvation was important and the
                Day of
                > Judgement present in every mind. It was carved over the doorway of
                every
                > cathedral, the numerous sinners roped together and led off by
                devils to a
                > flaming cauldron, while angels led the far fewer elect � those who
                > presumably had led the other sort of `good life' � to bliss in the
                opposite
                > direction.
                > The medieval vision of hell is also vividly portrayed in Dante
                > Alighieri's Inferno � the first part of The Divine Comedy. It is
                probably
                > the most recognized secular depiction of Hell. The table to the
                right gives
                > the basic outline.
                > So how did you avoid this terrible fate? By practicing Virtue.
                > Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be
                > prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice � the Cardinal
                Virtues. Early
                > Christian theologians adopted these virtues and deemed them to be
                equally
                > important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
                > St. Paul defined the three Theological Virtues; love, which was
                the
                > essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church
                authorities
                > believed the theological virtues were not natural to man in his
                fallen
                > state, but were conferred at Baptism.
                > Then we have the Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness,
                > abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence. These were
                derived
                > from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem written
                by
                > Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is said to protect
                one
                > against the temptation to practice the Seven Deadly Sins: humility
                against
                > pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity
                against
                > lust, patience against anger, liberality against covetousness, and
                > diligence against sloth.
                > The Seven Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues:
                prudence,
                > temperance, fortitude and justice, with a variation of the
                theological
                > virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
                > Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian
                Church
                > assembled a list of Seven Corporal Works of Mercy: feed the hungry,
                give
                > drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked,
                visit
                > the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead. Something there
                for
                > everyone, surely?
                > --------------------
                > Altruism for short. End quote.
                >
                > Ok, let me explain further. 29/04 I wrote:
                >
                > > >The major challenge in stating good acts are independent of God
                > >
                > >Maybe... Altruism (which bundles together a lot of doing good) is
                lately
                > >scientifically stated as being beneficial to the survival of the
                species.
                > >So maybe morality and acting accordingly is more a matter of gene
                commands
                > >than divine commands... and that Morality is just the nice
                priesthood power
                > >dress all around it?
                >
                > Now you wonder:
                >
                > >"Gene-inspired" is a difficult argument to put forth from my
                perspective
                > >in philosophy. But as a suggestion away from philosophy, I'd say,
                yes.
                > >Morality can be argued from those grounds.
                >
                > Well, you see, perhaps 'gene-inspired commands' are just the
                scientific
                > explanation of 'divine commands'? But, even more interestingly is
                perhaps
                > the outlook that Morality as 'prescibed' by religion or the
                Churches (see
                > quote above) is no more than a priesthood power dress all around
                it, an
                > invention by a select few to gain power over the masses... In other
                words:
                > is morality a concept which was there before religion or is it
                something
                > that came forth of religion (and thus became Morality)?
                >
                > If it was there before religion than it can be proven that it
                belongs to
                > man's basic nature and thus fundamental need (and reach!) in order
                to be
                > able to survive as a person, as a family, as a species. Especially
                when
                > also linked to the genes commanding certain behaviour for the good
                of the
                > species. That would be another sound support to the conclusion of
                your
                > essay (quote 'that the existence of God is relevant, but not
                necessary for
                > moral philosophy' end quote).
                >
                > If it was there but as a consequence of religion than it's a very
                different
                > matter. Indeed, man escaped babarism only when creating and
                adopting
                > culture, of which shamanism and religion where key components, and
                with
                > that ethics and beauty/esthetics, also in the appreciation of the
                human
                > spirit. Well, you can fill in the rest, I trust... :))
                >
                > >shari
                >
                > - Harry -





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              • thebohemian7
                Yes, Schopenhauer is one of my favourite philosophers. I often make allusions to him in my poems (and average people unfortunately don t understand these
                Message 7 of 28 , May 11, 2003
                  Yes,

                  Schopenhauer is one of my favourite philosophers. I often make
                  allusions to him in my poems (and average people unfortunately don't
                  understand these allusions).

                  Sorry that your academic necessities lie elsewhere.


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "shari hyder" <hydersjmj@x> wrote:
                  > Bohemian,
                  >
                  > A rhapsody in parts, you will find. :-) You follow Schopenhauer's
                  steps.
                  > He read the Upanishads everyday. It is most unfortunate for me that
                  I
                  > come across people with interest in Schopenhauer when my academic
                  > necessities lie elsewhere.
                  >
                  > shari
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: thebohemian7 [mailto:thebohemian7@y...]
                  > Sent: Monday, 12 May 2003 4:36 p.m.
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality
                  >
                  > Before I finished reading your quote on Hell, I automatically
                  thought
                  > of Dante. I think his picture of Hell well fits into the medieval
                  > vision.
                  >
                  > And I'm also very interested in karma and Hinduism. I'm just
                  reading
                  > the Upanishads, very poetical and deep, in my opinion.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Harry JMK <ti083866@t...> wrote:
                  > > At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Shari wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >[..] Affirmative Action [..] Let me know if you'd like some
                  > background
                  > > >information on this.
                  > >
                  > > :) Yes please!
                  > >
                  > > >Karma ­ [..]
                  > > >I may find the time at some stage to write some excerpts from a
                  > book and
                  > > >from there on, questions may be helpful if gaining more
                  > understanding is
                  > > >the objective. Remind me.
                  > >
                  > > Yes please (book)! Next to that I'm highly interested in the
                  Indian
                  > > traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth,
                  > and how
                  > > and if so in what way they are relevant to you.
                  > >
                  > > >The source of our moral intuition/moral knowledge - 'Gene-
                  inspired
                  > > >altruism and associated virtues perhaps?' [..] Associated
                  virtues
                  > I'm
                  > > >not sure about.
                  > >
                  > > Altruism and associated Virtues. A quote from the 'ADFAS Guide to
                  > Hell'
                  > > which I have discussed before:
                  > > --------------------
                  > > No epoch laid such stress on death and the hereafter as the
                  > Middle
                  > > Ages. The popular preaching of memento mori swelled into a sombre
                  > chorus
                  > > that rang throughout Europe, and the awful tortures awaiting the
                  > sinner
                  > > were animatedly described. In Hell the dammed hung by their
                  tongues
                  > from
                  > > trees of fire, the impenitent burned in furnaces, the wicked fell
                  > into the
                  > > black and turgid waters of an abyss and sank to a depth
                  > proportionate to
                  > > their sins: fornicators to the nostrils, persecutors of their
                  > fellow men up
                  > > to the eyebrows. Some were swallowed by monstrous fish, some
                  gnawed
                  > by
                  > > demons, tormented by serpents, by fire, burning sands or ice, or
                  > fruits
                  > > hanging forever out of reach of the starving. In Hell man was
                  > naked,
                  > > nameless and forgotten. No wonder salvation was important and the
                  > Day of
                  > > Judgement present in every mind. It was carved over the doorway
                  of
                  > every
                  > > cathedral, the numerous sinners roped together and led off by
                  > devils to a
                  > > flaming cauldron, while angels led the far fewer elect – those
                  who
                  > > presumably had led the other sort of `good life' – to bliss in
                  the
                  > opposite
                  > > direction.
                  > > The medieval vision of hell is also vividly portrayed in
                  Dante
                  > > Alighieri's Inferno – the first part of The Divine Comedy. It is
                  > probably
                  > > the most recognized secular depiction of Hell. The table to the
                  > right gives
                  > > the basic outline.
                  > > So how did you avoid this terrible fate? By practicing
                  Virtue.
                  > > Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to
                  be
                  > > prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice – the Cardinal
                  > Virtues. Early
                  > > Christian theologians adopted these virtues and deemed them to be
                  > equally
                  > > important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
                  > > St. Paul defined the three Theological Virtues; love, which
                  was
                  > the
                  > > essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church
                  > authorities
                  > > believed the theological virtues were not natural to man in his
                  > fallen
                  > > state, but were conferred at Baptism.
                  > > Then we have the Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness,
                  > > abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence. These were
                  > derived
                  > > from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem
                  written
                  > by
                  > > Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is said to protect
                  > one
                  > > against the temptation to practice the Seven Deadly Sins:
                  humility
                  > against
                  > > pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony,
                  chastity
                  > against
                  > > lust, patience against anger, liberality against covetousness,
                  and
                  > > diligence against sloth.
                  > > The Seven Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues:
                  > prudence,
                  > > temperance, fortitude and justice, with a variation of the
                  > theological
                  > > virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
                  > > Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian
                  > Church
                  > > assembled a list of Seven Corporal Works of Mercy: feed the
                  hungry,
                  > give
                  > > drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the
                  naked,
                  > visit
                  > > the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead. Something
                  there
                  > for
                  > > everyone, surely?
                  > > --------------------
                  > > Altruism for short. End quote.
                  > >
                  > > Ok, let me explain further. 29/04 I wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > >The major challenge in stating good acts are independent of God
                  > > >
                  > > >Maybe... Altruism (which bundles together a lot of doing good)
                  is
                  > lately
                  > > >scientifically stated as being beneficial to the survival of the
                  > species.
                  > > >So maybe morality and acting accordingly is more a matter of
                  gene
                  > commands
                  > > >than divine commands... and that Morality is just the nice
                  > priesthood power
                  > > >dress all around it?
                  > >
                  > > Now you wonder:
                  > >
                  > > >"Gene-inspired" is a difficult argument to put forth from my
                  > perspective
                  > > >in philosophy. But as a suggestion away from philosophy, I'd
                  say,
                  > yes.
                  > > >Morality can be argued from those grounds.
                  > >
                  > > Well, you see, perhaps 'gene-inspired commands' are just the
                  > scientific
                  > > explanation of 'divine commands'? But, even more interestingly is
                  > perhaps
                  > > the outlook that Morality as 'prescibed' by religion or the
                  > Churches (see
                  > > quote above) is no more than a priesthood power dress all around
                  > it, an
                  > > invention by a select few to gain power over the masses... In
                  other
                  > words:
                  > > is morality a concept which was there before religion or is it
                  > something
                  > > that came forth of religion (and thus became Morality)?
                  > >
                  > > If it was there before religion than it can be proven that it
                  > belongs to
                  > > man's basic nature and thus fundamental need (and reach!) in
                  order
                  > to be
                  > > able to survive as a person, as a family, as a species.
                  Especially
                  > when
                  > > also linked to the genes commanding certain behaviour for the
                  good
                  > of the
                  > > species. That would be another sound support to the conclusion of
                  > your
                  > > essay (quote 'that the existence of God is relevant, but not
                  > necessary for
                  > > moral philosophy' end quote).
                  > >
                  > > If it was there but as a consequence of religion than it's a very
                  > different
                  > > matter. Indeed, man escaped babarism only when creating and
                  > adopting
                  > > culture, of which shamanism and religion where key components,
                  and
                  > with
                  > > that ethics and beauty/esthetics, also in the appreciation of the
                  > human
                  > > spirit. Well, you can fill in the rest, I trust... :))
                  > >
                  > > >shari
                  > >
                  > > - Harry -
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Leon
                  ... From: shari hyder To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 11, 2003
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "shari hyder" <hydersjmj@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:48 PM
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality


                    Bohemian,

                    > A rhapsody in parts, you will find. :-) You follow Schopenhauer's steps.
                    > He read the Upanishads everyday. It is most unfortunate for me that I
                    > come across people with interest in Schopenhauer when my academic
                    > necessities lie elsewhere.

                    Perhaps finding ways to stretch the "necessities", or find that eventually,
                    it "all" comes round somehow. Bending the 'rules', but to learn what real
                    rules are. Go on!, as we're journeying through life and all that. This time,
                    shall you take a step back, or attack? "Well, stop bein' poetic!", I give
                    myself flack...

                    Dave



                    shari

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: thebohemian7 [mailto:thebohemian7@...]
                    Sent: Monday, 12 May 2003 4:36 p.m.
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality

                    Before I finished reading your quote on Hell, I automatically thought
                    of Dante. I think his picture of Hell well fits into the medieval
                    vision.

                    And I'm also very interested in karma and Hinduism. I'm just reading
                    the Upanishads, very poetical and deep, in my opinion.


                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Harry JMK <ti083866@t...> wrote:
                    > At 01-05-2003 Thursday, Shari wrote:
                    >
                    > >[..] Affirmative Action [..] Let me know if you'd like some
                    background
                    > >information on this.
                    >
                    > :) Yes please!
                    >
                    > >Karma ­ [..]
                    > >I may find the time at some stage to write some excerpts from a
                    book and
                    > >from there on, questions may be helpful if gaining more
                    understanding is
                    > >the objective. Remind me.
                    >
                    > Yes please (book)! Next to that I'm highly interested in the Indian
                    > traditions (yours!) in relation to reincarnation, Karma, rebirth,
                    and how
                    > and if so in what way they are relevant to you.
                    >
                    > >The source of our moral intuition/moral knowledge - 'Gene-inspired
                    > >altruism and associated virtues perhaps?' [..] Associated virtues
                    I'm
                    > >not sure about.
                    >
                    > Altruism and associated Virtues. A quote from the 'ADFAS Guide to
                    Hell'
                    > which I have discussed before:
                    > --------------------
                    > No epoch laid such stress on death and the hereafter as the
                    Middle
                    > Ages. The popular preaching of memento mori swelled into a sombre
                    chorus
                    > that rang throughout Europe, and the awful tortures awaiting the
                    sinner
                    > were animatedly described. In Hell the dammed hung by their tongues
                    from
                    > trees of fire, the impenitent burned in furnaces, the wicked fell
                    into the
                    > black and turgid waters of an abyss and sank to a depth
                    proportionate to
                    > their sins: fornicators to the nostrils, persecutors of their
                    fellow men up
                    > to the eyebrows. Some were swallowed by monstrous fish, some gnawed
                    by
                    > demons, tormented by serpents, by fire, burning sands or ice, or
                    fruits
                    > hanging forever out of reach of the starving. In Hell man was
                    naked,
                    > nameless and forgotten. No wonder salvation was important and the
                    Day of
                    > Judgement present in every mind. It was carved over the doorway of
                    every
                    > cathedral, the numerous sinners roped together and led off by
                    devils to a
                    > flaming cauldron, while angels led the far fewer elect - those who
                    > presumably had led the other sort of `good life' - to bliss in the
                    opposite
                    > direction.
                    > The medieval vision of hell is also vividly portrayed in Dante
                    > Alighieri's Inferno - the first part of The Divine Comedy. It is
                    probably
                    > the most recognized secular depiction of Hell. The table to the
                    right gives
                    > the basic outline.
                    > So how did you avoid this terrible fate? By practicing Virtue.
                    > Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be
                    > prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice - the Cardinal
                    Virtues. Early
                    > Christian theologians adopted these virtues and deemed them to be
                    equally
                    > important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
                    > St. Paul defined the three Theological Virtues; love, which was
                    the
                    > essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church
                    authorities
                    > believed the theological virtues were not natural to man in his
                    fallen
                    > state, but were conferred at Baptism.
                    > Then we have the Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness,
                    > abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence. These were
                    derived
                    > from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"), an epic poem written
                    by
                    > Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is said to protect
                    one
                    > against the temptation to practice the Seven Deadly Sins: humility
                    against
                    > pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity
                    against
                    > lust, patience against anger, liberality against covetousness, and
                    > diligence against sloth.
                    > The Seven Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues:
                    prudence,
                    > temperance, fortitude and justice, with a variation of the
                    theological
                    > virtues: faith, hope, and charity.
                    > Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian
                    Church
                    > assembled a list of Seven Corporal Works of Mercy: feed the hungry,
                    give
                    > drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked,
                    visit
                    > the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead. Something there
                    for
                    > everyone, surely?
                    > --------------------
                    > Altruism for short. End quote.
                    >
                    > Ok, let me explain further. 29/04 I wrote:
                    >
                    > > >The major challenge in stating good acts are independent of God
                    > >
                    > >Maybe... Altruism (which bundles together a lot of doing good) is
                    lately
                    > >scientifically stated as being beneficial to the survival of the
                    species.
                    > >So maybe morality and acting accordingly is more a matter of gene
                    commands
                    > >than divine commands... and that Morality is just the nice
                    priesthood power
                    > >dress all around it?
                    >
                    > Now you wonder:
                    >
                    > >"Gene-inspired" is a difficult argument to put forth from my
                    perspective
                    > >in philosophy. But as a suggestion away from philosophy, I'd say,
                    yes.
                    > >Morality can be argued from those grounds.
                    >
                    > Well, you see, perhaps 'gene-inspired commands' are just the
                    scientific
                    > explanation of 'divine commands'? But, even more interestingly is
                    perhaps
                    > the outlook that Morality as 'prescibed' by religion or the
                    Churches (see
                    > quote above) is no more than a priesthood power dress all around
                    it, an
                    > invention by a select few to gain power over the masses... In other
                    words:
                    > is morality a concept which was there before religion or is it
                    something
                    > that came forth of religion (and thus became Morality)?
                    >
                    > If it was there before religion than it can be proven that it
                    belongs to
                    > man's basic nature and thus fundamental need (and reach!) in order
                    to be
                    > able to survive as a person, as a family, as a species. Especially
                    when
                    > also linked to the genes commanding certain behaviour for the good
                    of the
                    > species. That would be another sound support to the conclusion of
                    your
                    > essay (quote 'that the existence of God is relevant, but not
                    necessary for
                    > moral philosophy' end quote).
                    >
                    > If it was there but as a consequence of religion than it's a very
                    different
                    > matter. Indeed, man escaped babarism only when creating and
                    adopting
                    > culture, of which shamanism and religion where key components, and
                    with
                    > that ethics and beauty/esthetics, also in the appreciation of the
                    human
                    > spirit. Well, you can fill in the rest, I trust... :))
                    >
                    > >shari
                    >
                    > - Harry -





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                  • shari hyder
                    Bohemian, Care to post your poems off list to HYPERLINK mailto:hydersjmj@xtra.co.nz hydersjmj@xtra.co.nz? shari ... From: thebohemian7
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 11, 2003
                      Bohemian,

                      Care to post your poems off list to HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:hydersjmj@..."hydersjmj@...?


                      shari

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: thebohemian7 [mailto:thebohemian7@...]
                      Sent: Monday, 12 May 2003 4:53 p.m.
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality

                      Yes,

                      Schopenhauer is one of my favourite philosophers. I often make
                      allusions to him in my poems (and average people unfortunately don't
                      understand these allusions).

                      Sorry that your academic necessities lie elsewhere.






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                    • shari hyder
                      Dave, Ah yes. To be 20 and have all that energy. I have re-discovering gravity. Did you know that the older you get, the more difficult it becomes to skip? Or
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 11, 2003
                        Dave,

                        Ah yes. To be 20 and have all that energy. I have re-discovering
                        gravity. Did you know that the older you get, the more difficult it
                        becomes to skip? Or to get up from a crouching position? I have grey
                        hairs and shall keep them. I can focus on one subject matter at a time.

                        shari



                        Perhaps finding ways to stretch the "necessities", or find that
                        eventually,
                        it "all" comes round somehow. Bending the 'rules', but to learn what
                        real
                        rules are. Go on!, as we're journeying through life and all that. This
                        time,
                        shall you take a step back, or attack? "Well, stop bein' poetic!", I
                        give
                        myself flack...

                        Dave







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                      • David Leon
                        ... From: shari hyder To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:18 PM Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Karma &
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 12, 2003
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "shari hyder" <hydersjmj@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:18 PM
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Karma & Morality


                          > Dave,
                          >
                          > Ah yes. To be 20 and have all that energy. I have re-discovering
                          > gravity. Did you know that the older you get, the more difficult it
                          > becomes to skip? Or to get up from a crouching position? I have grey
                          > hairs and shall keep them. I can focus on one subject matter at a time.
                          >

                          Hey, I'm getting older too. I feel it. It's just not that .."bad"?? ..yet...

                          Dave

                          > shari
                          >
                          >
                          >
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