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Freedom of Choice??

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  • yeoman
    Bryan, ... i wrote. I ... fear death ... Be , rather ... symbology. ... nothing in ... anyway in ... and ... the ... freedom of choice. I suppose I should
    Message 1 of 32 , Apr 29, 2003
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      > I have read your response. Perhaps you misunderstood what
      i wrote. I
      > do not criticise that you must believe in God in order to
      fear death
      > or punishment. Subjectively we speak of God as the "To
      Be", rather
      > than "Not Be", by metaphysical syntax, and meta-language
      > Referring to your Ford as your preferred Choice has
      nothing in
      > context to do with God and your choice made to buy a ford
      anyway in
      > the first place...unless you believe in "Non-determinism",
      > therefore do not believe order exists in the universe as
      > quintessenital meaning of Panetheism.

      ---> My primary purpose was to open up the matter of
      freedom of choice. I suppose I should change the subject

      Anyway, the example I provided was the simplistic one of
      choosing between a Ford and a BMW. I am using the word
      "simplistic" here, since most if not all of our choices are
      at this level. The average person is not in a position to
      make decisions that are of an earth shattering quality.

      Is our freedom of choice impacted by some outside entity??
      I grant that we may take into consideration some
      environmental factor and there may be some law which
      prevents me from buying a BMW [I dont know of any] but these
      are human derived factors.

      Lets accept for the moment that there is some order to the
      universe. Unless this "order" prevents me from selecting a
      BMW, then it also is a non-issue with respect to
      Existentialism. The focus of Existentialism is upon "my"
      existence and "your" existence, not upon order in the

    • Lorna Landry
      Harry, Your system of logical propositions is not really necessay here, because, we, or at least I, already know that Christian Existentialism exists and is a
      Message 32 of 32 , May 4 3:09 PM
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        Harry, Your system of logical propositions is not really necessay here, because, we, or at least I, already know that Christian Existentialism exists and is a valid form of existnetialism.If you are looking for the formulation of decent propositions and their necessary conclusions, you would be much better satisfied on a logic list. Life just does not work that way, and neither does existentialism. Lorna

        Harry JMK <ti083866@...> wrote:At 02-05-2003 Friday, Mark wrote:

        >The ultimate concern is the Ground of ALL being regardless of race,
        >gender, religious affiliation, age, etc etc etc hence the ultimate concern
        >is the Ground for all humanity ... and plant life ... and animals ... and
        >bacteria ... and galaxies ... and quarks ... and black holes etc etc etc.
        >Christians call this ultimate concern God. You can call it the ultimsate
        >concern. It doesn't matter. As John Shelby Spong points out it could
        >also be called Allah or Gaia or Brahma ... where the descripotion is the
        >same as ultimate concern! It is the ultimate concern's 'being' that
        >matters not the name by which the individual comes to recognise the
        >ultimate concern (recognition in part only .... as it is
        >transcendent) This ultimate concern is spoken of in metaphor as words
        >limit it. Any definition is, as a result, not the whole but a struggle to
        >name the unnameable.
        >As I have stated before all that is left is to describe this ultimate
        >concern. The existence of the ultimate concern is a non-issue.

        Well, more and more I get convinced that the whole entanglement (concerning
        the subject of Christian Existentialism or Existentialist Christianity or
        What-have-you) in which we find ourselves at this moment comes from the
        very classic problem of not having addressed the subject with the necessary

        0. Start with clear Definitions, from that:
        1. Create Axioma's on which:
        2. To build subsequent Propositions and Proofs

        It's just like Baruch Spinoza did in his 'Ethics'.

        So, in my view, if we are to find a release of all the fogginess and
        unclearness what has to be done is do some decent homework, and I think
        that would have to come primarily from you, Mark. As you are the one who
        started the whole discussion in the first place.

        First you will have to specify all definitions plus axioma's on which your
        worldview of CE/EC/etc is built upon. The rest of existlist will have to
        accept these as basic to the discussion. Once established we can move on to
        building propositions.

        But first you will have to define some decent fundamental propositions and
        make sound proofs of them from the initial axioma's. These are the items we
        can discuss together.

        I do not intend to read any books on CE/EC/etc, but I am willing to enter a
        well argumented discussion if and only if the groundwork proves to be thorough.

        I trust it won't be any problem for you.

        If together we fail to get this groundwork worked out well enough any
        discussion on the matter is fundamentally futile. We had all better stop
        with it then (much like Susan has already proposed) and work on other problems.

        'Nuff said. Comments anyone?

        Kind regards,
        - Harry -

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