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the remote father

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  • eduard
    Vee,
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 28 3:21 AM
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      Vee,

      <<< yes but actions speak louder then words, daddy does this and
      this k kewl woteva, but i have no idea what that has to do with work,
      surely a child should develop his own sense of individuality about what
      career he wants to do and the role model should be about how to be not what
      work to do?? >>>

      It has nothing to do with work itself. The point is that without knowing what the father does, there is no communication and no bonding. It is important for a son to bond to his father, at an early age, so as to get an understanding of what it is to be a man. In primative societies, there is a specific initiation ceremony by which the boy enters mens society. But today all the fathers are remote and the alternative that is left is for the boy to be part of a gang of his own age. This only results in the boy [and other boys] remaining as children and doing childish things. My own father was remote and to a large degree this has delayed me on my own path to manhood.

      The


      <<< and women never get shown in a lesser light? >>>

      Putting anyone in a lesser light is wrong. I am simply speaking from a man's point of view and pointing out TV shows in which men are so indicated. The politically correct pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction. I would much perfer to have TV shows where the man is shown with intelligence and resolve. And i could well agree that TV shows should also show the woman as having intelligence and resolve. Because I am advocating the former does not mean that I am opposed to the latter.


      <<< now eduard i think you are taking that far too personally
      really.........men would never have survived being women >>>

      Of course i am taking this personally. I personally object to the way in which the media shows men.

      I am not saying that men should be women. Neither should women be men. Each has its role in society and should not be shown as being foolish. It is amazing that when looking at shows like the old "I Love Lucy" it is upsetting to see how a woman is shown as a scatterbrain.

      eduard


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Tindall
      ... knowing what the father does, there is no communication ... It has to do with both. In one of the men s groups I was in (Newcastle) there was a retired
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 28 6:06 PM
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        Eduard wrote:

        > It has nothing to do with work itself. The point is that without >
        knowing what the father does, there is no communication
        > and no bonding.

        It has to do with both.

        In one of the men's groups I was in (Newcastle) there was a retired
        psychiatrist (80yrs +) who recommended that we all read a book together
        (like we are doing with Sartre). In depth discussion on this book changed
        our lives! It has a number of exitentialist themes running throughout it
        ......

        ***************
        Sam Keen 'Fire In The Belly: On being a man' Batam Books, New York: 1991) He
        holds STB and THM from the Harvard Divinity School and Ph D from Princeton
        University ... used to be a consulting editor for Psychology Today.


        CONTENTS

        I - INTRODUCTION: The Making of a Man

        1. Invitation to a Journey

        2. It's a WOMAN's World
        - Man's Unconscious bondage to WOMAN
        - WOMAN as Goddess and Creatrix
        - WOMAN as Motjher and Matrix
        - WOMAN as Erotic-Spiritual Power
        - Saying Good-bye to WOMAN

        II THE RITES OF MANHOOD

        3. The Initiation and Mutilation of Men
        - Traditional Rites of Passage
        - Modern Myths and Modern Men

        4. The Rite of War and the Warrior Psyche
        - Agents of Violence
        - The Warrior Psyche
        - Cannon Fodder, Gang rape, and the War System

        5. The Rite of Work: The Economic Man
        - The Bottom Line - Work and Worth
        - The High Price of Success'

        6. The Rite of Sex: Magic Wands and Private Tools
        - Getting Laid and Keeping Score
        - Sexual Wounds

        III - TAKING THE MEASURE OF MAN

        7. The measuring of manhood
        - The Self-measuring Animal
        - Exemplary Men

        8. A Brief History of Manhood]
        - Man as Hunter
        - Man as planter
        - Man as Warrior
        - Homo Sapiens
        - Dionysian Man
        - Prophetic man
        - Man As Image of God
        - Man as Power
        - Scientific-Technological Man
        - The Self-made Man
        - Psychological Man
        - Postmodern Man

        9. Virility and Vocation: Fierce Gentlemen
        - Beyond the Myth of War and the Warrior Psyche
        - Beyond Consumptive Economics: Toward an Earth Advocacy

        IV - A PRIMER FOR NOW AND FUTURE HEROES

        10. The Soulful Quest: Pilgrimage into Self
        - Map for a Heroic Journey
        - From Sunny Pragmatism to the Dark Wisdom of Dream-Time
        - From Having the Answers to Living the Questions
        - From Cock-sureness to Potent Doubt
        - From Numbness to Manly Grief
        - From Artificial Toughness to Virile Fear
        - From Guilt and Shame to Responsible Morality
        - From Isolation to the Awareness of Loneliness
        - From False Optimism to Honest Despair
        - From Compulsive Action to Fallowness and Waiting
        - Renewal and the Rebirth of Joy

        11. Homecoming: A Sampler of Heroic Virtues
        - The Virtue of Wonder
        - The Virtue of Empathy
        - The Virtue of a Heartful Mind
        - The Virtue of Moral Outrage
        - The Virtue of Right Livelihood
        - The Virtue of Enjoyment
        - The Virtue of Friendship
        - The Virtue of Communion
        - The Virtue of Husbanding
        - The Virtue of Wildness

        V - MEN AND WOMEN: COMING TOGETHER

        12. Love: Introduction to a Dance with Three Movements

        13. Counterpoint: Loving Combat
        - Fierceness: Standing Firm and the Gift of Anger
        - Ideological Feminism: No! Prophetic Feminism: Yes!
        - Ending the Blame Game

        14 Becoming Together
        - Intimacy: How Close is Close Enough?
        - Modes of Being Together
        - The Mystery of Man & Woman
        - Paean to marriage: The Conjunction of Opposites
        - Cocreation: Familial Love and the Fatherhood of Men
        - Hearth, Hospitality and Community
        - Ardor for the Earth: the Common Vocation

        15. Travel Tips For Pilgrims
        - Forming a Questing Community
        - Recovering Your Personal History of Manhood
        - Warfare, Conquest, and Competition
        - Power and Other values
        - Work, Money and Vocation
        - Sex, Love and Intimacy
        - Feelings and Emotions
        - Useful Phrases and Opening Sentences
        - Changing the Male Body
        - Cultivating Solitude
        - Rituals, Ceremonies and Symbolic Events
        - Spirited and Virile Action

        APPENDIX

        Perfect 10s: What Makes and Ideal Man? A Psychology Today Survey.

        Who Is The New Ideal Man? A Report
        - Philosophy of life
        - Rites of Passage
        - Attitudes and Behaviours
        - Attitudes Toward Women
        - Love and Serx (in that order)
        - Family
        - Anger and Violence
        - Conclusions

        ************


        Mark
      • Lorna Landry
        Mark, this sounds like an interesting book...maybe we should read it after B & N. I would probably learn *something* about the mysterious wolrd of men. Lorna
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 28 8:40 PM
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          Mark,

          this sounds like an interesting book...maybe we should read it after B & N. I would probably learn *something* about the mysterious wolrd of men.

          Lorna


          Mark Tindall <mbtin@...> wrote:Eduard wrote:

          > It has nothing to do with work itself. The point is that without >
          knowing what the father does, there is no communication
          > and no bonding.

          It has to do with both.

          In one of the men's groups I was in (Newcastle) there was a retired
          psychiatrist (80yrs +) who recommended that we all read a book together
          (like we are doing with Sartre). In depth discussion on this book changed
          our lives! It has a number of exitentialist themes running throughout it
          ......

          ***************
          Sam Keen 'Fire In The Belly: On being a man' Batam Books, New York: 1991) He
          holds STB and THM from the Harvard Divinity School and Ph D from Princeton
          University ... used to be a consulting editor for Psychology Today.


          CONTENTS

          I - INTRODUCTION: The Making of a Man

          1. Invitation to a Journey

          2. It's a WOMAN's World
          - Man's Unconscious bondage to WOMAN
          - WOMAN as Goddess and Creatrix
          - WOMAN as Motjher and Matrix
          - WOMAN as Erotic-Spiritual Power
          - Saying Good-bye to WOMAN

          II THE RITES OF MANHOOD

          3. The Initiation and Mutilation of Men
          - Traditional Rites of Passage
          - Modern Myths and Modern Men

          4. The Rite of War and the Warrior Psyche
          - Agents of Violence
          - The Warrior Psyche
          - Cannon Fodder, Gang rape, and the War System

          5. The Rite of Work: The Economic Man
          - The Bottom Line - Work and Worth
          - The High Price of Success'

          6. The Rite of Sex: Magic Wands and Private Tools
          - Getting Laid and Keeping Score
          - Sexual Wounds

          III - TAKING THE MEASURE OF MAN

          7. The measuring of manhood
          - The Self-measuring Animal
          - Exemplary Men

          8. A Brief History of Manhood]
          - Man as Hunter
          - Man as planter
          - Man as Warrior
          - Homo Sapiens
          - Dionysian Man
          - Prophetic man
          - Man As Image of God
          - Man as Power
          - Scientific-Technological Man
          - The Self-made Man
          - Psychological Man
          - Postmodern Man

          9. Virility and Vocation: Fierce Gentlemen
          - Beyond the Myth of War and the Warrior Psyche
          - Beyond Consumptive Economics: Toward an Earth Advocacy

          IV - A PRIMER FOR NOW AND FUTURE HEROES

          10. The Soulful Quest: Pilgrimage into Self
          - Map for a Heroic Journey
          - From Sunny Pragmatism to the Dark Wisdom of Dream-Time
          - From Having the Answers to Living the Questions
          - From Cock-sureness to Potent Doubt
          - From Numbness to Manly Grief
          - From Artificial Toughness to Virile Fear
          - From Guilt and Shame to Responsible Morality
          - From Isolation to the Awareness of Loneliness
          - From False Optimism to Honest Despair
          - From Compulsive Action to Fallowness and Waiting
          - Renewal and the Rebirth of Joy

          11. Homecoming: A Sampler of Heroic Virtues
          - The Virtue of Wonder
          - The Virtue of Empathy
          - The Virtue of a Heartful Mind
          - The Virtue of Moral Outrage
          - The Virtue of Right Livelihood
          - The Virtue of Enjoyment
          - The Virtue of Friendship
          - The Virtue of Communion
          - The Virtue of Husbanding
          - The Virtue of Wildness

          V - MEN AND WOMEN: COMING TOGETHER

          12. Love: Introduction to a Dance with Three Movements

          13. Counterpoint: Loving Combat
          - Fierceness: Standing Firm and the Gift of Anger
          - Ideological Feminism: No! Prophetic Feminism: Yes!
          - Ending the Blame Game

          14 Becoming Together
          - Intimacy: How Close is Close Enough?
          - Modes of Being Together
          - The Mystery of Man & Woman
          - Paean to marriage: The Conjunction of Opposites
          - Cocreation: Familial Love and the Fatherhood of Men
          - Hearth, Hospitality and Community
          - Ardor for the Earth: the Common Vocation

          15. Travel Tips For Pilgrims
          - Forming a Questing Community
          - Recovering Your Personal History of Manhood
          - Warfare, Conquest, and Competition
          - Power and Other values
          - Work, Money and Vocation
          - Sex, Love and Intimacy
          - Feelings and Emotions
          - Useful Phrases and Opening Sentences
          - Changing the Male Body
          - Cultivating Solitude
          - Rituals, Ceremonies and Symbolic Events
          - Spirited and Virile Action

          APPENDIX

          Perfect 10s: What Makes and Ideal Man? A Psychology Today Survey.

          Who Is The New Ideal Man? A Report
          - Philosophy of life
          - Rites of Passage
          - Attitudes and Behaviours
          - Attitudes Toward Women
          - Love and Serx (in that order)
          - Family
          - Anger and Violence
          - Conclusions

          ************


          Mark


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lorna Landry
          wolrd ?? - wow...that is mysterious... (oops) Lorna Landry wrote: Mark, this sounds like an interesting book...maybe we should read it
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 28 8:41 PM
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            'wolrd'?? - wow...that is mysterious... (oops)


            Lorna Landry <lornalandry@...> wrote:
            Mark,

            this sounds like an interesting book...maybe we should read it after B & N. I would probably learn *something* about the mysterious wolrd of men.

            Lorna


            Mark Tindall <mbtin@...> wrote:Eduard wrote:

            > It has nothing to do with work itself. The point is that without >
            knowing what the father does, there is no communication
            > and no bonding.

            It has to do with both.

            In one of the men's groups I was in (Newcastle) there was a retired
            psychiatrist (80yrs +) who recommended that we all read a book together
            (like we are doing with Sartre). In depth discussion on this book changed
            our lives! It has a number of exitentialist themes running throughout it
            ......

            ***************
            Sam Keen 'Fire In The Belly: On being a man' Batam Books, New York: 1991) He
            holds STB and THM from the Harvard Divinity School and Ph D from Princeton
            University ... used to be a consulting editor for Psychology Today.


            CONTENTS

            I - INTRODUCTION: The Making of a Man

            1. Invitation to a Journey

            2. It's a WOMAN's World
            - Man's Unconscious bondage to WOMAN
            - WOMAN as Goddess and Creatrix
            - WOMAN as Motjher and Matrix
            - WOMAN as Erotic-Spiritual Power
            - Saying Good-bye to WOMAN

            II THE RITES OF MANHOOD

            3. The Initiation and Mutilation of Men
            - Traditional Rites of Passage
            - Modern Myths and Modern Men

            4. The Rite of War and the Warrior Psyche
            - Agents of Violence
            - The Warrior Psyche
            - Cannon Fodder, Gang rape, and the War System

            5. The Rite of Work: The Economic Man
            - The Bottom Line - Work and Worth
            - The High Price of Success'

            6. The Rite of Sex: Magic Wands and Private Tools
            - Getting Laid and Keeping Score
            - Sexual Wounds

            III - TAKING THE MEASURE OF MAN

            7. The measuring of manhood
            - The Self-measuring Animal
            - Exemplary Men

            8. A Brief History of Manhood]
            - Man as Hunter
            - Man as planter
            - Man as Warrior
            - Homo Sapiens
            - Dionysian Man
            - Prophetic man
            - Man As Image of God
            - Man as Power
            - Scientific-Technological Man
            - The Self-made Man
            - Psychological Man
            - Postmodern Man

            9. Virility and Vocation: Fierce Gentlemen
            - Beyond the Myth of War and the Warrior Psyche
            - Beyond Consumptive Economics: Toward an Earth Advocacy

            IV - A PRIMER FOR NOW AND FUTURE HEROES

            10. The Soulful Quest: Pilgrimage into Self
            - Map for a Heroic Journey
            - From Sunny Pragmatism to the Dark Wisdom of Dream-Time
            - From Having the Answers to Living the Questions
            - From Cock-sureness to Potent Doubt
            - From Numbness to Manly Grief
            - From Artificial Toughness to Virile Fear
            - From Guilt and Shame to Responsible Morality
            - From Isolation to the Awareness of Loneliness
            - From False Optimism to Honest Despair
            - From Compulsive Action to Fallowness and Waiting
            - Renewal and the Rebirth of Joy

            11. Homecoming: A Sampler of Heroic Virtues
            - The Virtue of Wonder
            - The Virtue of Empathy
            - The Virtue of a Heartful Mind
            - The Virtue of Moral Outrage
            - The Virtue of Right Livelihood
            - The Virtue of Enjoyment
            - The Virtue of Friendship
            - The Virtue of Communion
            - The Virtue of Husbanding
            - The Virtue of Wildness

            V - MEN AND WOMEN: COMING TOGETHER

            12. Love: Introduction to a Dance with Three Movements

            13. Counterpoint: Loving Combat
            - Fierceness: Standing Firm and the Gift of Anger
            - Ideological Feminism: No! Prophetic Feminism: Yes!
            - Ending the Blame Game

            14 Becoming Together
            - Intimacy: How Close is Close Enough?
            - Modes of Being Together
            - The Mystery of Man & Woman
            - Paean to marriage: The Conjunction of Opposites
            - Cocreation: Familial Love and the Fatherhood of Men
            - Hearth, Hospitality and Community
            - Ardor for the Earth: the Common Vocation

            15. Travel Tips For Pilgrims
            - Forming a Questing Community
            - Recovering Your Personal History of Manhood
            - Warfare, Conquest, and Competition
            - Power and Other values
            - Work, Money and Vocation
            - Sex, Love and Intimacy
            - Feelings and Emotions
            - Useful Phrases and Opening Sentences
            - Changing the Male Body
            - Cultivating Solitude
            - Rituals, Ceremonies and Symbolic Events
            - Spirited and Virile Action

            APPENDIX

            Perfect 10s: What Makes and Ideal Man? A Psychology Today Survey.

            Who Is The New Ideal Man? A Report
            - Philosophy of life
            - Rites of Passage
            - Attitudes and Behaviours
            - Attitudes Toward Women
            - Love and Serx (in that order)
            - Family
            - Anger and Violence
            - Conclusions

            ************


            Mark


            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mandisi Majavu
            it s not just men at large who are portrayed as intelligent and resolved, but whitemen.I thought your argument needed a bit of enlargement there a bit. Mandisi
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 3, 2003
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              it's not just men at large who are portrayed as
              intelligent and resolved, but whitemen.I thought your
              argument needed a bit of enlargement there a bit.
              Mandisi



              --- eduard <yeoman@...> wrote:
              > Vee,
              >
              > <<< yes but actions speak louder then words, daddy
              > does this and
              > this k kewl woteva, but i have no idea what that has
              > to do with work,
              > surely a child should develop his own sense of
              > individuality about what
              > career he wants to do and the role model should be
              > about how to be not what
              > work to do?? >>>
              >
              > It has nothing to do with work itself. The point is
              > that without knowing what the father does, there is
              > no communication and no bonding. It is important
              > for a son to bond to his father, at an early age, so
              > as to get an understanding of what it is to be a
              > man. In primative societies, there is a specific
              > initiation ceremony by which the boy enters mens
              > society. But today all the fathers are remote and
              > the alternative that is left is for the boy to be
              > part of a gang of his own age. This only results in
              > the boy [and other boys] remaining as children and
              > doing childish things. My own father was remote and
              > to a large degree this has delayed me on my own path
              > to manhood.
              >
              > The
              >
              >
              > <<< and women never get shown in a lesser light? >>>
              >
              > Putting anyone in a lesser light is wrong. I am
              > simply speaking from a man's point of view and
              > pointing out TV shows in which men are so indicated.
              > The politically correct pendulum has now swung too
              > far in the other direction. I would much perfer to
              > have TV shows where the man is shown with
              > intelligence and resolve. And i could well agree
              > that TV shows should also show the woman as having
              > intelligence and resolve. Because I am advocating
              > the former does not mean that I am opposed to the
              > latter.
              >
              >
              > <<< now eduard i think you are taking that far too
              > personally
              > really.........men would never have survived being
              > women >>>
              >
              > Of course i am taking this personally. I
              > personally object to the way in which the media
              > shows men.
              >
              > I am not saying that men should be women. Neither
              > should women be men. Each has its role in society
              > and should not be shown as being foolish. It is
              > amazing that when looking at shows like the old "I
              > Love Lucy" it is upsetting to see how a woman is
              > shown as a scatterbrain.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • eduard
              Mandisi, it s not just men at large who are portrayed as ... your ... bit. You are probably right. But in large part the world is changing rapidly.
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 3, 2003
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                Mandisi,

                <<< > it's not just men at large who are portrayed
                as
                > intelligent and resolved, but whitemen.I thought
                your
                > argument needed a bit of enlargement there a
                bit. >>>

                You are probably right. But in large part the
                world is changing rapidly. The demographics of
                population, especially in North America, is no
                longer exclusively "white". But then it would
                seem to me that the portrayal of intelligence and
                resolve is in the mind of those who do the
                looking.

                As to patriarchy [which i presume is what you are
                talking about], we have long ago moved away from
                this with the adventent of the industrial age. In
                patriarchy the idea is that of those in power
                taking care of society. But today, the objective
                is solely money. If you look at the corporations
                such as Enron, you will find that it was also
                women managers who went after the millions at the
                cost of pensions of the workers.

                eduard
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