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RE: [existlist] there *is* a problem...

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  • Eduard Alf
    bies et folks, oh .. ok ... i understand .. paying the boatman ... of course God or hell or afterlife punishment will disappear if you cease to believe in them
    Message 1 of 36 , May 4, 2001
      bies et folks,

      oh .. ok ... i understand .. paying the boatman ...

      of course God or hell or afterlife punishment will disappear if you cease to
      believe in them ... they wont be part of your life ... or death ... these
      things are there because you believe .. that is why God created humans .. to
      have an audience ... you cant be a god without god-worshipers ...

      why should life be just? .. and why are you doing the judging? ...is it not
      the case that you should love your neighbour, who commits adultery? ... why
      shouldnt you both go to heaven? ... if God can forgive, why cant you? ...
      and perhaps more appropriately, why cant the catholic church? ....

      our choices make all the difference ... you can be de Sade or a Schweitzer
      ... you can choose for happiness ... you should read the following poem by
      Robert Frost ...

      'Two roads diverged in a yellow wood...'

      Two roads diverged in a yellow wood
      and sorry I could not travel both
      and being one traveller, long I stood
      and looked down one as far as I could
      to where it turned in the undergrowth.

      Then took the other, as just as fair,
      but having perhaps the better claim
      because it was grassy and wanted wear,
      yet as for that, the passing there
      had worn them really about the same.

      And each that morning equally lay
      in leaves no step had trodden black-
      Oh, I saved the first for another day
      but, knowing how way leads on to way
      I doubted if I should ever come back.

      I shall be telling this with a sigh,
      somewhere ages and ages hence-
      two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
      I took the one less travelled by,
      and that has made all the difference!

      have fun ...

      eduard


      -----Original Message-----
      From: bies [mailto:bies@...]
      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:11 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [existlist] there *is* a problem...


      obol (lat. obolus, from greek obolos) was the sixth part of a drachma. my
      polish-english dictionary translates it as "obol", but there may be a
      mistake, if you didn't understand it. Unless you gave an obolos to Charo,
      you weren't allowed to pass the Styx.

      Eduard and The Rest,

      it doesn't matter what do i believe in, it matters--what *is*, and what will
      be. God or hell or afterlife punishment--won't dissapear if i try not to
      think about them (and, of course, won't appear because of my believing in
      them). personally, i'm nearly sure that after my death i just won't-be. but
      i can
      never be sure.

      for some people the lack of punishment (which implicates also the lack of
      reward) may be very sad. their life seems then to be ridiculous... it
      doesn't matter if i go to church every week, if i don't cheat my wife... or
      to say it in a different way: "my neighbour, who commits adultery every
      night (he divorced and now has his second wife)(the catholic church doesn't
      allow people to divorce) won't go to hell as i won't. it is not just!". also
      the free
      will concept may be very sad...

      existentialism as pesimistic--this is not an idea of mine. i was just
      quoting.

      our choices don't really matter. we can choose the life of de Sade, we can
      be Albert Schweitzer (i'm not sure about the spelling), the effect will
      eventually be the same, nothingness.

      the vision of eternal punishment
      sometimes seems very atractive to me.
      have a funny eternity.
      bies


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 4:21 PM
      Subject: RE: [existlist] there *is* a problem...


      > bies et les gens,
      >
      > there are two ways of looking at this ... the other side is to ask, how do
      > you know that there is punishment in some afterlife? ... neither your nor
      i
      > have been dead yet, so as to be certain ... i will leave aside the obvious
      > fact that if we were dead we would not be back to tell others ...
      >
      > i think perhaps that considering none of us, including the greeks, can say
      > one way or the other, it is better to disbelieve in a hell than to be
      > pestered by this kind of dark thinking ...
      >
      > whether there is a hell or not is something that is an ideal means of
      > control for some religions ... they can intimidate you into control ...
      what
      > are you going to do ... in such religions only the elite have access to
      god
      > ... at least to make an interpretation ... you cant disprove them because
      > you are not yet dead ... why believe in this stuff in the first place? ...
      > is it wise to believe in a religion that offers you the possibility of an
      > eternity in hell? ...
      >
      > from an existentialist point of view, you have the ability to make your
      own
      > choices and by this to make your world ... why choose the worst ... why
      > choose to believe in a system that gives you concern ...
      >
      > although im not well read in existentialism, i dont see how it could be
      > characterized as pessimistic ... as much as i understand, the essence of
      > existentialism is a freedom of choice ... it may be that some of the
      > philosophers are pessimistic ... you can choose as well to not be
      > pessimistic ...
      >
      > by the way, what is "obol"? ...
      >
      > have fun ...
      >
      > eduard
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: bies [mailto:bies@...]
      > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:16 AM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] there *is* a problem...
      >
      >
      > Eduard and folks,
      >
      > "there is no punishment in some afterlife "--how do you know that? Have
      you
      > already been dead?
      >
      > How can we be sure, that the ancient Greeks weren't right, and without the
      > obol we'll find the Hades' gates closed? Are we able to prove anything
      about
      > death?
      >
      > "all gods are created ... i mean at the human level ... something we want
      to
      > have a concern for our individual lives ... and this is done in relation
      to
      > the prevailing social environment ... you can see that in any religion
      ..."
      > In my opinion, what you have written, is the most probable hypothesis...
      But
      > how can you prove it? Maybe you're right, maybe the Christians are right.
      > Lets flip a coin--this solution would be as correct as any other.
      >
      > Existentialism is siad to be pessimistic. I do not agree. Pessimistic
      would
      > be the mix: responsability in this life, punishment--during the afterlife.
      >
      > Have a good eternity.
      > bies.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:56 PM
      > Subject: RE: [existlist] there *is* a problem...
      >
      >
      > > bies et folks,
      > >
      > > there is no punishment in some afterlife ... the concept of punishment
      > after
      > > death is simply something that has been devised to keep people in line
      ...
      > > not the really bad people, because they dont believe in all that stuff,
      > but
      > > the average person who is worried about self and family ... but think
      > about
      > > it ... here is this omnipotent god who is in charge of a universe whose
      > size
      > > we cant even visualize ... tons of galaxies and black holes and such ...
      > and
      > > here this god that for some reason pauses in his/her gigantic task to
      see
      > > after you and your punishment ... to conceive of such a god is to buy
      into
      > a
      > > scheme that just does not make any sense ...
      > >
      > > what you do in this life, you pay for in this life ... that is what
      > > existentialism is all about ... you make choices and you make your world
      > ...
      > >
      > > even a Hitler is not in some hell paying for his works ... he is just
      some
      > > ashes that probably still exist in some layer under a Berlin street ...
      > that
      > > is hard to accept, because we want some sort of payment for crime ...
      some
      > > kind of justice that is finally weighed out ... but if all that occurred
      > was
      > > some sort of punishment in hell, then we have missed the real
      opportunity
      > > for justice ... we have to remember the crime and correct or rather
      > prevent
      > > its reoccurrence in this generation ... Hitler was a product of his time
      > ...
      > > why believe in a god who punishes, when if he is omnipotent, why does he
      > not
      > > prevent the crime in the first place ...
      > >
      > > all gods are created ... i mean at the human level ... something we want
      > to
      > > have a concern for our individual lives ... and this is done in relation
      > to
      > > the prevailing social environment ... you can see that in any religion
      ...
      > >
      > > so why not make your own god and religion ... you cant be any more wrong
      > > than what has gone before ... and you have a better chance at doing it
      > > right, at least for you ... that is where i am ... all the religions,
      that
      > i
      > > have delved in, have had some inconsistency ... so why not make your
      own,
      > or
      > > pick up the good parts of them all ...
      > >
      > > if you keep at it, you will find the "something more" that you are
      > seeking
      > > ...
      > >
      > > have fun ...
      > >
      > > eduard
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: bies [mailto:bies@...]
      > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 4:49 PM
      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [existlist] there *is* a problem...
      > >
      > >
      > > Eduard (and folks),
      > >
      > > i do not want to have a god that may not exist. religion costs too much
      > and
      > > is too risky. it would be like selling my house, car and buying
      > > lottery-tickets. i want a real god, not a god that "has been created in
      > > relation to the prevailing social environment". i would like something
      > more.
      > > but i don't think i will ever get it...
      > >
      > > i'm responsible about what have i done, but nobody ha told me the rules.
      > > that is tragic. and inventing my own rules--it doesn't change anything.
      i
      > > may still fear the everlasting punishment.
      > >
      > > i prefer to decide, that i will be punished if there is any afterlife,
      > > rather than letting the dice roll.
      > >
      > > bies
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      >




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    • Eduard Alf
      Marie et folks, hmmmmm ... people still worshipping Mithra ... that is interesting ... i would really like to meet one or two ... anyway, i guess that what im
      Message 36 of 36 , May 13, 2001
        Marie et folks,

        hmmmmm ... people still worshipping Mithra ... that is interesting ... i
        would really like to meet one or two ...

        anyway, i guess that what im saying is that gods and their audience
        (worshippers) are connected ... a sort of symbiosis ... a symbiosis for
        which one is dependent upon the other ... i dont think god/man is any
        different from other dependent relationships in nature ...

        if a society has a god and this god ceases to function for them ... then
        that society may disappear ... particularly for societies where the religion
        is fundamental to their culture ... there are lots of examples of this ...
        the people may not completely disappear, but to end up in a lesser condition
        for which they are no longer successful ...

        it would seem to me that the god is in the same position ... he/she/it
        depends upon the audience ... if the audience disappears, then so does the
        god ...

        yes, one could relate to a deity for which there is a written record ...
        although one might ask whether this is truly a god/man relationship in the
        sense of relationships that existed when the god had a full audience within
        the society ... for example can one say that "Bast" is a current goddess who
        is fundamental to some people's lives ... there may well be some who believe
        in Bast, but is this the same as believing in Christ or Buddha ...

        and then, what about the multitude of gods and goddesses for whom there is
        not a written record ... are all of these still worshipped fully ... do we
        know of all the Celtic gods and goddesses, or the rocks and trees that might
        have been worshipped by ice-age man ...

        i suppose we could argue this forever ... and i would certainly like to hear
        more of your gods and goddesses ... but my primary point is the symbiosis of
        god/man ... i think it is fundamental to the way in which we deal with the
        world ...

        have fun ...

        eduad
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