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Re: QUESTIONS TO ALL!

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  • Matt Kirby
    Meghan, Thanks for the support. I am a bit behind on the reading bandwagon also, for I have not read any Sartre, even though he is the ultimate figure in
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 9, 1999
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      Meghan,
      Thanks for the support. I am a bit behind on the reading bandwagon also,
      for I have not read any Sartre, even though he is the ultimate figure in
      existentialism, but he is on my reading must. Please keep suggesting books,
      I believe that a well rounded philosopher is a well read philosopher.
      Kirby
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Meghan <freelance@...>
      To: <existlist@onelist.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


      > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
      >
      > Matt Kirby wrote:
      >
      > <<I have come to a point in my life were I have decided that to hate
      > someone is not a good thing, and try to avoid it as best I can,>>
      >
      > I always feel a need to bring these things back to the list topic, so here
      > it goes with a sloppy segueway from your post:
      >
      > In the book I just bought (_The Wall_), there's a very interesting short
      > story called "Erostratus." I'm sure several people here are familiar with
      > it --- I'm just a little slow on the bandwagon. In it, a man places
      > himself "above the human" part of himself and studies it. He's alienated
      > from the rest of society, and feels excluded from all the humanists. He
      > buys a revolver and draws his power from it; he makes plans to shoot six
      > people at random, then kill himself. At any rate, it's a pretty good
      > demonstration of the negative effects of hatred and alienation. And it's
      > Sartre, so it's on-topic!
      >
      > <<I think I will ignore him, unless he comes up with some original, non
      > attacking emails.>>
      >
      > I agree with you. I don't feel I need to defend myself at this point. :-)
      >
      >
      > -Meghan
      >
      >
      > _____________________
      >
      > http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
      >
      > "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
      >
      > -- Rita Mae Brown
      >
      > > From The Exist List...
      > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
      >
    • TiffaniTN@aol.com
      Hello all, I also highly recommend the Wall as a superb collection of Existentialist fictions. Erostratus was my favorite piece in the book.... I would like
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 9, 1999
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        Hello all,

        I also highly recommend the Wall as a superb collection of Existentialist
        fictions. Erostratus was my favorite piece in the book....

        I would like to add my interpretation to Meghan's on this story. I think
        that the main point in this story is that when one tries to apply a hierarchy
        to the value of human lives, one is mistaken. This man was bitter with the
        world. As a Psychology major, I feel safe labeling him as a man with an
        inferiority complex. To overcome the massive anxiety that he felt due to his
        perceived smallness, he did various things to feel big... (i.e., the
        prostitute scene). The ultimate feat to feel big was the final scene that
        Meghan mentioned ... his plan to kill 6 random people (the ant heap) and them
        himself.

        In the end, his inability to even kill himself alludes to the fact that he is
        as human as everyone else.... What lifted him above others was his ability
        to deceive self ... to believe that he was strong, above human emotion ...
        and in the end ... his self-deception was stripped away as he faced the truth
        ... he was numb with fear...

        You see, in life, there really is no hierarchy of human value. Anyone who
        makes the claim that there is, is probably engaged in a defense mechanism to
        overcome their own feelings of meaninglessness (of being just one of the ant
        heap). When everything is said and done, most of us are afraid of death ...
        of losing the one thing we feel certain of ... our very existence.

        Tiffani
      • Brandon Roshto
        Yana, Why do we use DEAD peoples quotes? WHY NOT. I still think.
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 11, 1999
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          Yana, Why do we use DEAD peoples quotes? WHY NOT. I still think.
        • Yana Youhana
          ... GOOD NOW THAT YOU RE IRRITATED MAYBE YOU WILL START TO THINK!
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 11, 1999
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            >From: "Matt Kirby" <max.kirby@...>
            >Reply-To: existlist@onelist.com
            >To: <existlist@onelist.com>
            >Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!
            >Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:39:48 -0500
            >
            >Meghan
            >Well I visited your site, and was very amazed, you seem to do well with
            >HTML
            >format, better than I.
            >I have come to a point in my life were I have decided that to hate someone
            >is not a good thing, and try to avoid it as best I can, but I am really
            >beginning to not like this Yana person, he is on a holyer than thou kick,
            >which irritates me.

            GOOD NOW THAT YOU'RE IRRITATED MAYBE YOU WILL START TO THINK!
          • Loveliescrushing@xxx.xxx
            ak! two things i hold so dear (besides early reruns of Hee-Haw)! so to you meghan i shake my fist at! *showing
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 11, 1999
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              << like daffodils or reruns of "Benny Hill." >>


              ak! two things i hold so dear (besides early reruns of Hee-Haw)!

              so to you meghan i shake my fist at!
              *showing frontal aggression

              david-
            • Brandon Roshto
              ... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, Damn two original thoughts in a hour
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 11, 1999
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                On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Yana Youhana wrote:

                > From: "Yana Youhana" <yana_youhana@...>
                >
                > Meghan, why are you angry?! What I said does NOT agree
                > of/with you. Some1 finally had dared to tell you and how
                > dare of her?! You can bring out as many professors from
                > your little bocket as you can, it does NOT impress me at all.
                > Improve my child!
                >
                > >From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                > Tiffani
                > >posted a really phenomenal response, but I'd like to add my own thoughts
                > >(and I even came up with them myself).
                >
                > BRAaaaaaaVO!
                >
                > >
                > ><<Why do you always use quotes from dead and gone people?>>
                > >
                > >Because they're some of the greatest thinkers in history.
                > No kidding! Does that mean you should not challange what
                > they said? Does that mean you are NOT great thinker in
                > the present time which some day long time from now some1
                > may consider YOU to be a "great thinker in history"?!
                > I have over 7000 years of civilization
                > behind me and I am proud of it BUT I would NOT stick to it.
                > I have studied about my roots, picked-up what I needed and
                > am going on with creating my own HISTORY!
                >
                > >No, I just haven't found anything on this list compelling enough to stir
                > >the "darkest part of my soul." Also, I refrain from spitting in >public.
                >
                >
                > If you haven't found anything on this list compelling enough,
                > why are you posting stuff?!
                > Just to remind you, "THIS LIST" means "All THE PEOPLE THAT
                > POST THEIR MATERIALS " so if this list is not compelling enough,
                > the people aren't compelling enough to you, then why
                > do you reply to them and act like you are interested in what
                > they have to say and always respond with "once my professor.....bla.."
                > Don't insult my intelligence! you keep contradicting yourself!
                >
                >
                > it's no substitute for the
                > >complete works of all the existentialists who've come before us.
                > >
                > ><<It is extreemly easy these days to just copy materials from the net and
                > >use them in your phylosophical debates, but is this what this list is all
                > >about?!!!>>
                > >
                > >But how easy is it to correctly apply those materials and theories?
                > I wouldn't know, I am not the one who uses them all the time,
                > you are. I First Lived those Theories and them found-out
                > some1 had wrote about it!!!
                >
                > You
                > >could walk into a Lincoln-Douglas debate armed to the teeth with Descartes
                > >and Berkeley, but it wouldn't do you a whit of good in establishing an
                > >"ought" in a value debate.
                >
                > ENGLISH PLEASE!
                >
                > >
                > ><<If you are an existentialist, why don't you tell me in your own words
                > >what you think about DEATH AND DYING?>>

                Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah,
                Damn two original thoughts in a hour


                > >
                > >That's not my field of specialization.
                >
                > What is NOT? you don't have ANY thoughts on DEATH NAD DYING?!!!
                >
                >
                > >Why don't you do so instead?
                >
                > I already have. go find my post on 9/21 2 days
                > after my cousin had died in car accident. And DEATH
                > is infact my field of my interst!
                >
                > >Besides, there's so much more to existentialism that that.
                > How would you know. you can't come-up with A sentence to
                > describe it!
                >
                > >
                > >I've learned a lot from my professors. I include their remarks because I
                > >think that if they were to participate in this forum they could contribute
                > >greatly. However, just because they don't subscribe to this list doesn't
                > >mean their widsom shouldn't be shared.So I put it out.
                >
                > How would you know they would want to contribute to this list?
                > Did you ask them? and they said go ahead and write on our behalf
                > and use us as the protecton wall?
                >
                > >if you don't like it, by all means, skip my posts.
                >
                > Ah, is this how you are planning to persue your way
                > into the philosophy world?! No my dear, trust me on this,
                > it does NOT work this way. And also I did not use
                > the word "like/dislike" anywhere in my post. So see
                > without your "professors", and quotes from "great thinkers
                > of the history" you can NOT "THINK" on your own! I proved it :)))
                > >
                > ><<Phylosophy is "THINKING ABOUT THINGS AND QUESTIONING THEIR EXISTANCE AND
                > >WISE VERSA" (C;YANA 1983, ATHENS,GREECE)>>
                > >
                > >Philosophy is the love of knowledge by definition. Which can be one's own
                > >knowledge, that of a philosopher, a professor, or whomever. To say
                > >philosophy is "questioning existance [sic]" narrows the scope beyond
                > >general philosophy to a more specialized field.
                > >
                > ><<Please be MORE ORIGINAL!>>
                > Thank You for using my quote, now you are getting somwhere.
                >
                > >
                > >Should you wish to see my original thoughts, I have several of the
                > >philosophical essays I've written on my website.
                >
                > Please give me your web page address, I love to check it out.
                >
                >
                > >essay on the necessary illusion of meaning,
                >
                > I'll be the First to read it so before it is
                > spread to the rest of the world you could use
                > my critisizem and rewrite it.
                >
                >
                > >I extend the same challenge to you: be more original. Instead of
                > >attacking the points made in this form, make your own. You hold the rest
                > >of us to a high standard; I hope you yourself can meet it as well.
                >
                > My job is to help others, light-up their fire and
                > push them to start. You may not like it now, BUT
                > you will someday appreciated.
                >
                > >
                >
                > My dear Meghan, I believe you have not
                > put in real life practice all the theories you have
                > learned. I HAVE. I've lived all those things you
                > have memorized.
                > So, Don't take things personal. fight them with
                > LOGIC, "YOUR OWN LOGIC".
                >
                > HAVE A GREAT WEEK-END :)
                > ~yana
                >
                >
                > >-Meghan
                > >
                > >
                > >_____________________
                > >
                > >http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                > >
                > >"Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                > >
                > >-- Rita Mae Brown
                > >
                > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >From The Exist List...
                > >http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                > ><< text3.html >>
                >
                > > From The Exist List...
                > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                >
              • Brandon Roshto
                ... Brandon is very much impressed thanks for the quotes. ... Brandon said: UHHHHH
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 11, 1999
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                  On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Yana Youhana wrote:

                  > From: "Yana Youhana" <yana_youhana@hotmail.c
                  > You can bring out as many professors from
                  > your little bocket????? as you can, it does NOT impress me at all.
                  >

                  Brandon is very much impressed thanks for the quotes.
                  >
                  > >From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                  > Tiffani
                  > >posted a really phenomenal response, but I'd like to add my own thoughts
                  > >(and I even came up with them myself).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > ><<Why do you always use quotes from dead and gone people?>>
                  > >
                  Brandon said: UHHHHH< why not?


                  >
                  >
                  > >No, I just haven't found anything on this list compelling enough to stir
                  > >the "darkest part of my soul." Also, I refrain from spitting in >public.
                  >

                  Brandon said: Very good point
                  >
                  > If you haven't found anything on this list compelling enough,
                  > why are you posting stuff?!


                  Brandon said: UHHHHHHH, why not?
                  > Just to remind you, "THIS LIST" means "All THE PEOPLE THAT
                  > POST THEIR MATERIALS " so if this list is not compelling enough,
                  > the people aren't compelling enough to you, then why
                  > do you reply to them and act like you are interested in what
                  > they have to say and always respond with "once my professor.....bla.."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ><<Phylosophy??????????????????

                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > My dear Meghan, I believe you have not
                  > put in real life practice all the theories you have
                  > learned. I HAVE. I've lived all those things you
                  > have memorized.

                  Brandon says: Prove it! How long have you been alive? What are you
                  talking about?
                  There is another assertion w/ no evidence of validity. MY POINT.

                  > "YOUR OWN LOGIC" What's this be more specific.


                  >
                  > HAVE A GREAT WEEK-END :)
                  > ~yana
                  >




                  >
                  > >-Meghan
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >_____________________
                  > >
                  > >http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                  > >
                  > >"Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                  > >
                  > >-- Rita Mae Brown
                  > >
                  > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >From The Exist List...
                  > >http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                  > ><< text3.html >>
                  >
                  > > From The Exist List...
                  > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                  >
                • Matt Kirby
                  I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone was still on this list. Nice to know that there is still someone out there. I just finished Notes From the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                    I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone was still on this list. Nice
                    to know that there is still someone out there. I just finished Notes From
                    the Underground. Very nice read, I enjoyed it. I have just started Nausea by
                    Sartre, similar in some aspects of Notes, but I have enjoyed what I have
                    read so far. I have never read Catcher and the Rye, I guess I should since
                    it is a high school classic. Knowing the high school I went to it was most
                    likely banned, with all the other great books, not because of its
                    controversy, but just to dumb down everyone, education is not a important
                    issue in my hometown unfortunately. Oh well
                    Kirby
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: ds <ds@...>
                    To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


                    > From: "ds" <ds@...>
                    >
                    > I read a book recently "The Catcher in the Rye" which a lot of you have
                    > probably read, but I thought it was really good, I actually found myself
                    > *wanting* to read when I read it. I used to think I hated fiction thanks
                    to
                    > school, but I found out otherwise with this book. It's not related to
                    > existentialism really (even though I'm sure you could find some obscure
                    > parallels since "existential" is such a vague term), but who cares? It's
                    > just about this very negative kid who gets kicked out of his school and
                    the
                    > whole book takes place in between his leaving school until the time when
                    he
                    > gets home, in which time he walks around New York and does various
                    > things...sounds lame, but it's actually really cool
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Matt Kirby <max.kirby@...>
                    > To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                    > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:06 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!
                    >
                    >
                    > > From: "Matt Kirby" <max.kirby@...>
                    > >
                    > > Meghan,
                    > > Thanks for the support. I am a bit behind on the reading bandwagon
                    also,
                    > > for I have not read any Sartre, even though he is the ultimate figure in
                    > > existentialism, but he is on my reading must. Please keep suggesting
                    > books,
                    > > I believe that a well rounded philosopher is a well read philosopher.
                    > > Kirby
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                    > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:37 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                    > > >
                    > > > Matt Kirby wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > <<I have come to a point in my life were I have decided that to hate
                    > > > someone is not a good thing, and try to avoid it as best I can,>>
                    > > >
                    > > > I always feel a need to bring these things back to the list topic, so
                    > here
                    > > > it goes with a sloppy segueway from your post:
                    > > >
                    > > > In the book I just bought (_The Wall_), there's a very interesting
                    short
                    > > > story called "Erostratus." I'm sure several people here are familiar
                    > with
                    > > > it --- I'm just a little slow on the bandwagon. In it, a man places
                    > > > himself "above the human" part of himself and studies it. He's
                    > alienated
                    > > > from the rest of society, and feels excluded from all the humanists.
                    He
                    > > > buys a revolver and draws his power from it; he makes plans to shoot
                    six
                    > > > people at random, then kill himself. At any rate, it's a pretty good
                    > > > demonstration of the negative effects of hatred and alienation. And
                    > it's
                    > > > Sartre, so it's on-topic!
                    > > >
                    > > > <<I think I will ignore him, unless he comes up with some original,
                    non
                    > > > attacking emails.>>
                    > > >
                    > > > I agree with you. I don't feel I need to defend myself at this point.
                    > :-)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -Meghan
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > _____________________
                    > > >
                    > > > http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                    > > >
                    > > > "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                    > > >
                    > > > -- Rita Mae Brown
                    > > >
                    > > > > From The Exist List...
                    > > > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > >From The Exist List...
                    > > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > From The Exist List...
                    > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                  • Meghan
                    I think The Catcher in the Rye is existentialist --- and it s a fabulous book as well. Holden is clued in to the absurdity of the world; I can see his
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                      I think "The Catcher in the Rye" is existentialist --- and it's a fabulous
                      book as well.

                      Holden is clued in to the absurdity of the world; I can see his sojourn
                      through New York as him trying to find meaning. He tries drinking, refuge
                      in other people, sex, and the whole symbolic regression to childhood.

                      Compare the scene with Holden and Sally to the scene in "Nausea" with
                      Antoine and Anny.


                      -Meghan


                      _____________________

                      http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html

                      "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."

                      -- Rita Mae Brown
                    • ds
                      I read a book recently The Catcher in the Rye which a lot of you have probably read, but I thought it was really good, I actually found myself *wanting* to
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                        I read a book recently "The Catcher in the Rye" which a lot of you have
                        probably read, but I thought it was really good, I actually found myself
                        *wanting* to read when I read it. I used to think I hated fiction thanks to
                        school, but I found out otherwise with this book. It's not related to
                        existentialism really (even though I'm sure you could find some obscure
                        parallels since "existential" is such a vague term), but who cares? It's
                        just about this very negative kid who gets kicked out of his school and the
                        whole book takes place in between his leaving school until the time when he
                        gets home, in which time he walks around New York and does various
                        things...sounds lame, but it's actually really cool

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Matt Kirby <max.kirby@...>
                        To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:06 AM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


                        > From: "Matt Kirby" <max.kirby@...>
                        >
                        > Meghan,
                        > Thanks for the support. I am a bit behind on the reading bandwagon also,
                        > for I have not read any Sartre, even though he is the ultimate figure in
                        > existentialism, but he is on my reading must. Please keep suggesting
                        books,
                        > I believe that a well rounded philosopher is a well read philosopher.
                        > Kirby
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                        > To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                        > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:37 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!
                        >
                        >
                        > > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                        > >
                        > > Matt Kirby wrote:
                        > >
                        > > <<I have come to a point in my life were I have decided that to hate
                        > > someone is not a good thing, and try to avoid it as best I can,>>
                        > >
                        > > I always feel a need to bring these things back to the list topic, so
                        here
                        > > it goes with a sloppy segueway from your post:
                        > >
                        > > In the book I just bought (_The Wall_), there's a very interesting short
                        > > story called "Erostratus." I'm sure several people here are familiar
                        with
                        > > it --- I'm just a little slow on the bandwagon. In it, a man places
                        > > himself "above the human" part of himself and studies it. He's
                        alienated
                        > > from the rest of society, and feels excluded from all the humanists. He
                        > > buys a revolver and draws his power from it; he makes plans to shoot six
                        > > people at random, then kill himself. At any rate, it's a pretty good
                        > > demonstration of the negative effects of hatred and alienation. And
                        it's
                        > > Sartre, so it's on-topic!
                        > >
                        > > <<I think I will ignore him, unless he comes up with some original, non
                        > > attacking emails.>>
                        > >
                        > > I agree with you. I don't feel I need to defend myself at this point.
                        :-)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -Meghan
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _____________________
                        > >
                        > > http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                        > >
                        > > "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                        > >
                        > > -- Rita Mae Brown
                        > >
                        > > > From The Exist List...
                        > > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >From The Exist List...
                        > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                        >
                        >
                      • Gaurav Sareen
                        ... find it anywhere, it sounded ... any ... truthfully, ... I have read each at least three times and each time learn more. What s lame about them?
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                          ----- Original Message ----- > I've been trying to find Nausea but I can't
                          find it anywhere, it sounded
                          > cool and I'm interested in how good Sartre's fiction is...have you read
                          any
                          > Camus before? I just finished "The Fall" and "The Stranger" and
                          truthfully,
                          > I thought they were both pretty lame.

                          I have read each at least three times and each time learn more. What's lame
                          about them?
                        • Meghan
                          Well, literary interpretation is all subjective. I don t really look
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                            <<I guess it could be viewed as existential, but I don't think it's all
                            that important>>

                            Well, literary interpretation is all subjective. I don't really look at it
                            as being about change, per se. Certainly it's a factor, but I tend to see
                            Holden as searching for his identity, as well as trying to decipher the
                            identity of the world around him. His contempt comes from his alienation
                            (like in Sartre's "Erostratus"), which I don't see as contingent upon his age.

                            But anyway.

                            "Nausea" is fairly heavy reading, as Sartre has a tendency to let his
                            fiction get leaden. It will make you think, though, if you let it. I need
                            to read "The Flies" one of these days.

                            I've read most of Camus' work, actually; I intend to have read his entire
                            body of work by the new year. I wasn't too fond of "The Stranger," (I
                            won't dispute its value, it's just not one of my favorites) but I thought
                            "The Fall" was brutally witty and insightful. Come on! Knocking people
                            over just so you can help an old lady cross the street?!?

                            Some people don't like Camus' method of monlogue-narration, which
                            admittedly takes some getting used to. I am fond of "Caligula" (a play,
                            not a novel), which is also very funny and absurd. And bloody. But many
                            people don't like to sit down and read a play (I do --- I'm a former actress).


                            -Meghan (currently reading Kant [yuck], and Spinoza's "Ethics" [interesting
                            to see this non-anthropomorphic vision of God])


                            _____________________

                            http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html

                            "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."

                            -- Rita Mae Brown
                          • ds
                            Yeah, but I think the overriding theme in the book is Holden s fear of change, which is just an allegory to adolescence in general in my opinion. His contempt
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                              Yeah, but I think the overriding theme in the book is Holden's fear of
                              change, which is just an allegory to adolescence in general in my opinion.
                              His contempt for change should has made him bitter towards the present and
                              unable to accept things the way they are, and virtually the only times he's
                              happy is when he's thinking about the past. And also his aloneness and his
                              "me vs the world" mentality are all characteristic of adolescence....I guess
                              it could be viewed as existential, but I don't think it's all that important

                              I've been trying to find Nausea but I can't find it anywhere, it sounded
                              cool and I'm interested in how good Sartre's fiction is...have you read any
                              Camus before? I just finished "The Fall" and "The Stranger" and truthfully,
                              I thought they were both pretty lame.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                              To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 7:27 PM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


                              > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                              >
                              > I think "The Catcher in the Rye" is existentialist --- and it's a fabulous
                              > book as well.
                              >
                              > Holden is clued in to the absurdity of the world; I can see his sojourn
                              > through New York as him trying to find meaning. He tries drinking, refuge
                              > in other people, sex, and the whole symbolic regression to childhood.
                              >
                              > Compare the scene with Holden and Sally to the scene in "Nausea" with
                              > Antoine and Anny.
                              >
                              >
                              > -Meghan
                              >
                              >
                              > _____________________
                              >
                              > http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                              >
                              > "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                              >
                              > -- Rita Mae Brown
                              >
                              > > >From The Exist List...
                              > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                              >
                            • ds
                              The Fall was well-written, but just boring, The Stranger is also pretty boring, nothing happens for the first half of the book of much signifigance, then
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 21, 1999
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                                "The Fall" was well-written, but just boring, "The Stranger" is also pretty
                                boring, nothing happens for the first half of the book of much signifigance,
                                then the second half is only slightly interesting...and the main character
                                has no personality at all until about the last 10 pages

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Gaurav Sareen <sareen@...>
                                To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 8:38 PM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


                                > From: "Gaurav Sareen" <sareen@...>
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----- > I've been trying to find Nausea but I can't
                                > find it anywhere, it sounded
                                > > cool and I'm interested in how good Sartre's fiction is...have you read
                                > any
                                > > Camus before? I just finished "The Fall" and "The Stranger" and
                                > truthfully,
                                > > I thought they were both pretty lame.
                                >
                                > I have read each at least three times and each time learn more. What's
                                lame
                                > about them?
                                >
                                > > >From The Exist List...
                                > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                                >
                              • ds
                                Every adolescent (at least, I think so, I guess I can only speak from personal experience and maybe a few other people I know) goes through the phase when
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 22, 1999
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                                  Every adolescent (at least, I think so, I guess I can only speak from
                                  personal experience and maybe a few other people I know) goes through the
                                  phase when realize how much things are changing and start to also despise
                                  what they are becoming, and can cause some bitterness and dejection towards
                                  reality in general...there is also the part with him talking about the
                                  museum, and how some things should just be in glass cases and never change,
                                  and also the carousel which makes him happy because it has always played the
                                  same song, even since when he was a kid....oh well, "The Flies" is in a book
                                  of 4 of Sartre's plays which I recently checked out from the library, I'm
                                  going to wait until I finish what I'm reading now to start that though

                                  Yes, "The Fall" had some interesting points, but on the whole, I just plain
                                  found it boring...maybe if he omitted the whole monologue form it would've
                                  given the book a bit more dimension to it...it's a good idea, but there's
                                  only so much one person can say until they start rambling and getting
                                  boring, and it really doesn't keep your attention

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                                  To: <existlist@onelist.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:04 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] QUESTIONS TO ALL!


                                  > From: Meghan <freelance@...>
                                  >
                                  > <<I guess it could be viewed as existential, but I don't think it's all
                                  > that important>>
                                  >
                                  > Well, literary interpretation is all subjective. I don't really look at
                                  it
                                  > as being about change, per se. Certainly it's a factor, but I tend to see
                                  > Holden as searching for his identity, as well as trying to decipher the
                                  > identity of the world around him. His contempt comes from his alienation
                                  > (like in Sartre's "Erostratus"), which I don't see as contingent upon his
                                  age.
                                  >
                                  > But anyway.
                                  >
                                  > "Nausea" is fairly heavy reading, as Sartre has a tendency to let his
                                  > fiction get leaden. It will make you think, though, if you let it. I
                                  need
                                  > to read "The Flies" one of these days.
                                  >
                                  > I've read most of Camus' work, actually; I intend to have read his entire
                                  > body of work by the new year. I wasn't too fond of "The Stranger," (I
                                  > won't dispute its value, it's just not one of my favorites) but I thought
                                  > "The Fall" was brutally witty and insightful. Come on! Knocking people
                                  > over just so you can help an old lady cross the street?!?
                                  >
                                  > Some people don't like Camus' method of monlogue-narration, which
                                  > admittedly takes some getting used to. I am fond of "Caligula" (a play,
                                  > not a novel), which is also very funny and absurd. And bloody. But many
                                  > people don't like to sit down and read a play (I do --- I'm a former
                                  actress).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -Meghan (currently reading Kant [yuck], and Spinoza's "Ethics"
                                  [interesting
                                  > to see this non-anthropomorphic vision of God])
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____________________
                                  >
                                  > http://nettrash.com/users/meghan/enter.html
                                  >
                                  > "Lead me not into temptation; I can find the way myself."
                                  >
                                  > -- Rita Mae Brown
                                  >
                                  > > >From The Exist List...
                                  > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
                                  >
                                  >
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