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Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation and Death (as in loss and lost)

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  • William Harris
    James, It is impossible to prove a null hypothesis , so it is impossible to prove that you do not exist. Now, is it impossible to prove because if you do not
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 26, 2001
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      James, It is impossible to prove a null hypothesis , so it is impossible to prove that you do not exist. Now, is it impossible to prove
      because if you do not exist you are not there to prove it, or because you cannot prove a null hypothesis, or both? Bill

      james tan wrote:

      > in my opinion, you hit a raw nerve about existence... i.e. it (existence) is
      > not a predicate, i.e. you can't prove it with your logical concepts. your
      > existence is only meant to be intuited (experienced), not proved.
      >
      > cheers,
      > james.
      >
      > >From: thebookdoc@...
      > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation and
      > >Death (as in loss and lost)
      > >Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:44:59 -0000
      > >
      > ><< ... i grant that you can argue whether even those on
      > > > this list are aware of what is real ... but eventually one has to
      > > > come to a conclusion of whatever forms reality, since otherwise
      > > > we could not exist ...>>
      > >
      > >Well, I am not so sure I do exist. Not that I am striving to be a blue
      > >clam, but I don't have a measurable way of proving to myself that I
      > >do. Logically. And in consideration of the previous arguments.
      > >
      > >I very well don't know you exist any more than I don't know if I have
      > >a very clever computer. And I see me and act like I am alive and
      > >perhaps pretend very well to exist within this society that I have
      > >either imagined or otherwise, but in the end can't be sure that I
      > >don't have a rather fantastic imagination, that this is a dream I will
      > >wake from, or is not some sort of artificial synthesis (as in brains
      > >in vats -- not necessarily the monkey kind).
      > >
      > >All that becomes a little disorienting at times. I don't think it
      > >would be necessary to clarify.
      > >
      > >If you could take my finger and put it on real, I would be most
      > >grateful.
      > >
      > >LeftofCenter.Life.Lothe.Lost
      > >
      > >-----------------------------------------------
      > >
      >
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    • Edward Alf
      folks, that is the kind of trap you can get yourself into ... at some point there has to be a recognition of reality in whatever form we may be able to know it
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 26, 2001
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        folks,

        that is the kind of trap you can get yourself into ... at some
        point there has to be a recognition of reality in whatever form
        we may be able to know it ... and perhaps that is why we have
        phenomenology ... if you cant prove anything, then you are lost
        in a indefinable chaos ....

        eduard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "William Harris" <bhvwd@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:49 AM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation,
        Irritation and Death (as in loss and lost)


        > James, It is impossible to prove a null hypothesis , so it is
        impossible to prove that you do not exist. Now, is it impossible
        to prove
        > because if you do not exist you are not there to prove it, or
        because you cannot prove a null hypothesis, or both? Bill
        >
        > james tan wrote:
        >
        > > in my opinion, you hit a raw nerve about existence... i.e. it
        (existence) is
        > > not a predicate, i.e. you can't prove it with your logical
        concepts. your
        > > existence is only meant to be intuited (experienced), not
        proved.
        > >
        > > cheers,
        > > james.
        > >
        > > >From: thebookdoc@...
        > > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation,
        Irritation and
        > > >Death (as in loss and lost)
        > > >Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:44:59 -0000
        > > >
        > > ><< ... i grant that you can argue whether even those on
        > > > > this list are aware of what is real ... but eventually
        one has to
        > > > > come to a conclusion of whatever forms reality, since
        otherwise
        > > > > we could not exist ...>>
        > > >
        > > >Well, I am not so sure I do exist. Not that I am striving to
        be a blue
        > > >clam, but I don't have a measurable way of proving to myself
        that I
        > > >do. Logically. And in consideration of the previous
        arguments.
        > > >
        > > >I very well don't know you exist any more than I don't know
        if I have
        > > >a very clever computer. And I see me and act like I am alive
        and
        > > >perhaps pretend very well to exist within this society that
        I have
        > > >either imagined or otherwise, but in the end can't be sure
        that I
        > > >don't have a rather fantastic imagination, that this is a
        dream I will
        > > >wake from, or is not some sort of artificial synthesis (as
        in brains
        > > >in vats -- not necessarily the monkey kind).
        > > >
        > > >All that becomes a little disorienting at times. I don't
        think it
        > > >would be necessary to clarify.
        > > >
        > > >If you could take my finger and put it on real, I would be
        most
        > > >grateful.
        > > >
        > > >LeftofCenter.Life.Lothe.Lost
        > > >
        > > >-----------------------------------------------
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        _________________________________________________________________
        ________
        > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
        http://www.hotmail.com
        > >
        > >
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        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        > >
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        > >
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        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
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      • William Harris
        I take prove ,in this narrow case ,to be equivalent to proof, as in proof of the Pythagorean theorm. To convince, sets up a much less severe standard. BILL
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 30, 2001
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          I take prove ,in this narrow case ,to be equivalent to proof, as in proof of the Pythagorean theorm. To convince, sets up a much less
          severe standard. BILL

          Eduard Alf wrote:

          > james,
          >
          > without going to the dictionary, i would say that "prove" is simply to be
          > able to give an argument to show that something is true ...
          >
          > i guess thing im trying to say is that at some point you have to recognize
          > that the objects in front of us are real ... if you are driving along the
          > road and someone moves over to your lane when traveling in the opposite
          > direction, then there is not time to argue the truth of the oncoming car ...
          > you have to accept that some things real instantaneously and pull to the
          > shoulder ...
          >
          > it is just that i find that on this existlist, we are getting into a lot of
          > protracted discussion on defining this and defining that, and proving this
          > and proving that ... i understand that philosophy gets into small detail,
          > but as applied to life in which we have to survive, it can get into
          > trivialities ... that is why i like phenomenology ... it gets us out of the
          > trap of focusing on ourselves and our perceptions of things ... it
          > recognizes that what is there is there and it is the object which makes
          > itself known to us rather than us thinking that we create the object out of
          > our perceptions ...
          >
          > have fun ....
          >
          > i see that my new email address is working ...
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          > Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 1:43 AM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation
          > and Death (as in loss and lost)
          >
          > eduard,
          >
          > what do you understand by the concept "prove"? are you sure you got it
          > right??
          >
          > james.
          >
          > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
          > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation and
          > >Death (as in loss and lost)
          > >Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:42:33 -0400
          > >
          > >folks,
          > >
          > >that is the kind of trap you can get yourself into ... at some
          > >point there has to be a recognition of reality in whatever form
          > >we may be able to know it ... and perhaps that is why we have
          > >phenomenology ... if you cant prove anything, then you are lost
          > >in a indefinable chaos ....
          > >
          > >eduard
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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        • Eduard Alf
          Bill et folks, yes, i understand ... if we could run through a proposition, with givens and axioms, something can be proven absolutely ... the original issue
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 30, 2001
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            Bill et folks,

            yes, i understand ... if we could run through a proposition, with givens and
            axioms, something can be proven absolutely ... the original issue was
            whether we could prove anything at all ... i find that a lot of discussion
            here bears down on proofs and definitions ... granted, one has to delve into
            these areas in order to have a common understanding, but then it (i think)
            gets too rigorous ... for example we might get into a discussion of whether
            or not the table in our road exists or not ... i would grant that we could
            discuss this and come to the conclusion that we cant prove the table exists
            ... but that would be faulty and certainly none of us would accept this
            conclusion unconditionally so as to walk directly into the table which we
            can plainly see in front of us ... i think that that is a trap which
            phenomenology get us out of ... as much as i understand it, phenomenology
            separates perceptions from the object ... the object is there to the degree
            that we can receive stimulus from it (e.g. reflected light) ...

            you cant go through life proving everything ... sometimes things are just
            obvious ... a red clam is a red clam .. a dead person is just plain dead ...
            etc. etc....

            have fun ...

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
            Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 3:52 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation
            and Death (as in loss and lost)


            I take prove ,in this narrow case ,to be equivalent to proof, as in proof of
            the Pythagorean theorm. To convince, sets up a much less
            severe standard. BILL

            Eduard Alf wrote:

            > james,
            >
            > without going to the dictionary, i would say that "prove" is simply to be
            > able to give an argument to show that something is true ...
            >
            > i guess thing im trying to say is that at some point you have to recognize
            > that the objects in front of us are real ... if you are driving along the
            > road and someone moves over to your lane when traveling in the opposite
            > direction, then there is not time to argue the truth of the oncoming car
            ...
            > you have to accept that some things real instantaneously and pull to the
            > shoulder ...
            >
            > it is just that i find that on this existlist, we are getting into a lot
            of
            > protracted discussion on defining this and defining that, and proving this
            > and proving that ... i understand that philosophy gets into small detail,
            > but as applied to life in which we have to survive, it can get into
            > trivialities ... that is why i like phenomenology ... it gets us out of
            the
            > trap of focusing on ourselves and our perceptions of things ... it
            > recognizes that what is there is there and it is the object which makes
            > itself known to us rather than us thinking that we create the object out
            of
            > our perceptions ...
            >
            > have fun ....
            >
            > i see that my new email address is working ...
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            > Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 1:43 AM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation
            > and Death (as in loss and lost)
            >
            > eduard,
            >
            > what do you understand by the concept "prove"? are you sure you got it
            > right??
            >
            > james.
            >
            > >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
            > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Epilepsy, Insanity, Isolation, Irritation
            and
            > >Death (as in loss and lost)
            > >Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:42:33 -0400
            > >
            > >folks,
            > >
            > >that is the kind of trap you can get yourself into ... at some
            > >point there has to be a recognition of reality in whatever form
            > >we may be able to know it ... and perhaps that is why we have
            > >phenomenology ... if you cant prove anything, then you are lost
            > >in a indefinable chaos ....
            > >
            > >eduard
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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          • thebookdoc@aol.com
            Ed Alf et gnats and beans, Not to point fingers, but it would seem to me that you like Phenomenomenominologyyy because it lets you believe whatever you want.
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 30, 2001
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              Ed Alf et gnats and beans,

              Not to point fingers, but it would seem to me that you like
              Phenomenomenominologyyy because it lets you believe
              whatever you want. It is very, very easy to say "well, it is obvious
              from my observation that the world is flat!" and, you see,
              because of a limited perspective and not much ability to
              understand, people DID believe that for quite a while -- it was
              proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that other things were true
              like that the earth was the center of the universe and relativity had
              absolutely every answer.

              A more PARTICULAR scientist -- which I hear tell you
              supposedly have a background in -- might well expect that their
              answers to not just one or two, but many OR ALL their questions
              are a bit on the wrong side, because just as you have your
              perspective that so much is OBVIOUS, it is also OBVIOUS that
              man's methodology is only as good as his current ability to
              deceive himself that he is correct -- till , of course, something
              better comes along.

              So, right now, because I am doing some quite pleasant blotter,
              and I see my tenticles wailing away at this keyboard driven by
              termites and angst (they are little angsts, mind you, much like
              snails but a little less human), I thank my god that doesn't yet
              exist (the questionaire is on the way) that i am not using paper
              because lighting up in the dark here all alone sloppy damp
              tenticles splashing with each stroke, I'd damage the paper more
              then the plastic -- and the termites need a shower anyways.
              However I fully believe I am a jelly-fish, and so i am, you say...a
              fabulous typing jelly-fish. The fabulous typing jelly-fish, who is
              about to become an exception by some Alf hocus-pocus of
              desire and disappear like all good exceptions in the Alf world,
              would like to stand an orate before he goes:

              "Today...(today)...(today) I consider myself ...(myself).....The
              luckiest jelly-fish ... (jelly-fish)...(jelly-fish) ...on the face of the
              earth ... (earth)...(earth)...(earth)."

              You have yet to pay for your god. How can we possibly progress
              without payment?

              Relly.Lish@godsRus
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            • Eduard Alf
              Richard, i have no idea what you are talking about ... this is pointless ... eduard ... From: thebookdoc@aol.com [mailto:thebookdoc@aol.com] Sent: Monday,
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 30, 2001
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                Richard,

                i have no idea what you are talking about ... this is pointless ...

                eduard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: thebookdoc@... [mailto:thebookdoc@...]
                Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:27 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Phenomina, like a loci of points or locust of
                famine or plague of rat


                Ed Alf et gnats and beans,

                Not to point fingers, but it would seem to me that you like
                Phenomenomenominologyyy because it lets you believe
                whatever you want. It is very, very easy to say "well, it is obvious
                from my observation that the world is flat!" and, you see,
                because of a limited perspective and not much ability to
                understand, people DID believe that for quite a while -- it was
                proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that other things were true
                like that the earth was the center of the universe and relativity had
                absolutely every answer.

                A more PARTICULAR scientist -- which I hear tell you
                supposedly have a background in -- might well expect that their
                answers to not just one or two, but many OR ALL their questions
                are a bit on the wrong side, because just as you have your
                perspective that so much is OBVIOUS, it is also OBVIOUS that
                man's methodology is only as good as his current ability to
                deceive himself that he is correct -- till , of course, something
                better comes along.

                So, right now, because I am doing some quite pleasant blotter,
                and I see my tenticles wailing away at this keyboard driven by
                termites and angst (they are little angsts, mind you, much like
                snails but a little less human), I thank my god that doesn't yet
                exist (the questionaire is on the way) that i am not using paper
                because lighting up in the dark here all alone sloppy damp
                tenticles splashing with each stroke, I'd damage the paper more
                then the plastic -- and the termites need a shower anyways.
                However I fully believe I am a jelly-fish, and so i am, you say...a
                fabulous typing jelly-fish. The fabulous typing jelly-fish, who is
                about to become an exception by some Alf hocus-pocus of
                desire and disappear like all good exceptions in the Alf world,
                would like to stand an orate before he goes:

                "Today...(today)...(today) I consider myself ...(myself).....The
                luckiest jelly-fish ... (jelly-fish)...(jelly-fish) ...on the face of the
                earth ... (earth)...(earth)...(earth)."

                You have yet to pay for your god. How can we possibly progress
                without payment?

                Relly.Lish@godsRus
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --





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              • thebookdoc@aol.com
                That is the same way I feel when I read some of your replies. However, I assure you
                Message 7 of 7 , May 1 2:15 AM
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                  <<i have no idea what you are talking about ... this is pointless
                  ...>>

                  That is the same way I feel when I read some of your replies.

                  However, I assure you there was a point. And that you missed it quite
                  on purpose. Another way, I guess, of making me disappear. I'll give
                  you a few more chances to do just that.

                  I tried to suggest that nothing is as obvious as you want it to be.
                  You like phenomenology because it lets you believe whatever you want.

                  Sir, the world is not flat. It is round. There is more to it than you
                  can take in, see and comprehend at any one moment, and it is created
                  of and by things you cannot see take in or comprehend.

                  So, if you wish to remain comfortable in phenomenology, that is just
                  fine. However, it is no better or less baseless than creationism --
                  not from the way you are describing it and seem to understand it.

                  Was the language plain enough for you?

                  There is a difference between comprehending and trying to comprehend
                  and giving up and not being able to see a point. One of the following
                  is probably true:

                  •Either you give up soon -- which is fine, because my style can be
                  trying, but seems to point to a flaw in your general reasoning
                  (nothing is worth very much effort to comprehend)

                  •You don't care -- in which case, lets stop right now

                  •No one else's opinion matters -- which is fine, but lets stop right
                  now.

                  •You can't comprehend though you try terribly hard -- in which case
                  lets stop right now.

                  •Everyone else is imaginary and doesn't matter anyway -- which is
                  sort-a my point, make up your mind whose side you are on.

                  I am open to other suggestions.

                  If you are turning to phenomenology because you think the world is
                  generally too difficult to comprehend...hmmm...Now that seems a corner
                  which is not completely illogical to turn. However, once you do, there
                  is no point in proving or understanding anything whatever. In which
                  case, we should stop right now -- understanding, defining, proving and
                  clarifying don't even come into play. You believe whatever you
                  want...period. There is nothing but the way you want to comprehend
                  things -- and that is all that matters. There is not even a reason to
                  try or discuss it. It is non-transferable, you can't get or even
                  logically want others to believe what you do, and you get to maintain
                  every illusion you have -- no matter how it was induced (um, which is,
                  sort-a, my point by the jelly-fish thing). You can believe it because
                  of drugs, a malady, an insanity, a stupidity, a mistake, a vision, a
                  dream or anything whatever -- but you can't argue a point -- not one
                  -- because there are no sides. You can't prove or desire to prove you
                  are right because it is opposed to having the idea. I see it so it is
                  real. Everyone is right. jelly-fish or snail.

                  I think the end of the discussion is defining a difference: that you
                  have the feeling it is impossible to comprehend the world, and I am a
                  slight more optimistic -- though perhaps just as wrong -- in thinking
                  it isn't. In any case, I think this has run out of arguments. From
                  your perspective you are right in any case, no matter what the proof
                  or agenda, and in mine I am at an impossible impass where the
                  reduction just leads to further the absurdity.

                  Have fun .... with a capital 'H'

                  Hrl

                  ---------------------
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