Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Facticity

Expand Messages
  • Matt Kirby
    Have not read, but on my list, thanks for the recommendation. I must agree with you. Absolute freedom is an illusion, we have created the idea to make us feel
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 6, 1999
      Have not read, but on my list, thanks for the recommendation.
      I must agree with you. Absolute freedom is an illusion, we have created the
      idea to make us feel better about "us." We are a vast superior species, so
      how can we be limited by things we can not see. The fact is we are limited
      and in order to make "us" feel better we create illusionary ideas with
      illusionary words such as freedom, why heck maybe love is an illusion, just
      some neurons firing, transmitting a neurotransmitter that makes "us" feel
      what we call love. We hate to be limited, so we do everything we can to
      curve that, "the political correct unlimited" I think that is why we climb
      Mt. Everest, go to the moon, and swim the English Channel, because we rule
      this planet, so there is nothing that we can not do or be. That idea is a
      fallacy of thought, the haunting truth is we are limited to our environment
      and our own genetics. Sad but true, but hey who ever said false hope is bad,
      its better than no hope.
      Kirby
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <TiffaniTN@...>
      To: <existlist@onelist.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 8:11 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Facticity


      > From: TiffaniTN@...
      >
      > For those of you toiling with the concept of free will versus various
      forms
      > of determinism, I highly recommend reading Dostoevsky's 'Notes From The
      > Underground.'
      >
      > Anyone who has read this book, I would love to hear your thoughts.
      >
      > Basically, my thoughts on the free will/determinism debate are this.
      Anyone
      > who tries to suggest that we have absolute freedom is ludicrous ... even
      > Sartre didn't say this... Sartre said we have complete freedom but not
      > absolute (though for a different reason than I am about to express).
      There
      > are so many factors that limit the possibility of absolute freedom. I
      don't
      > think that anyone who is up to date on Physiological studies would suggest
      > that our biological make-up has no effect on our choices (disposition),
      nor
      > would anyone who is familiar with Psychology try to suggest that our past
      > experiences have no influence on our daily choices. These, our genetics
      and
      > our past experiences, greatly influence us without doubt.
      >
      > The fact that we have the ability to introspect and analyze our
      > predispositions to behave in a certain way in a given context is where the
      > freedom begins. In Dostoevsky's 'Notes From The Underground' this idea is
      > expounded upon. The fact that one can recognize his inclinations and yet
      > still rebel against them seems to solve the genetics/environment debate.
      I
      > rebel, therefore I am free.
      >
      > Sure, any one of us can make the argument "but how can we really know that
      > even this perceived freedom is not merely an illusion...." It seems that
      we
      > could debate that issue endlessly ... but I challenge you, what sense does
      > the question even make to ask? Can we ever know? We function as though
      we
      > have freedom. We feel like we have freedom. We can be educated enough to
      > know what is best for us and still choose to rebel, as in Dostoevsky's
      'Notes
      > from the Underground.' We have set up this society with the belief that
      > there is freedom. Let's face it, if we reduce everyone to deterministic
      > animals, how can we make anyone responsible for any of their actions?
      >
      > I reiterate my strong belief that the fact that we can metacognate on our
      > influences and rebel against them seems to offer substance to the theory
      that
      > there is a sort of freedom, that we are not merely walking products of our
      > bodily composition and environmental conditioning.
      >
      > Tiffani
      >
      > > From The Exist List...
      > http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~tameri
    • Zithromax
      If you had absolute, total amnesia (as in the book/movie Bourne Identity ) it is possible that you would not know that you are a canadian bluenoser nor retain
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 23, 2003
        If you had absolute, total amnesia (as in the book/movie "Bourne Identity") it is possible that you would not know that you are a canadian bluenoser nor retain any cultural predispositions towards gender roles. In such a situation who you are is independent of facticity. Facticity can influence us, obviously. For example if we have plenty of cash we could act differently than if we are impoverished, e.g. we may not have the free will to buy a lamborghini. However, I think that when Heidegger or Sartre talk about Facticity they are really saying that free will and accepting responsibility for our actions frees us from a prison of facticities. When you realize that who you are is based on the decisions you make independently of things like gender, age, and birth then you realize your free will, and a deeper understanding of who you are. I think this is why some people enjoy primitive camping, rock climbing, and survivalish stuff. Such activities can represent a choice to radically change facticity, if only for a weekend, and in taking on nature we can better understand ourselves.

        Zith
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Lorna Landry
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Facticity


        I think facticity means those circumstances of your existence over which you have no control, such as time and place of birth, sex, etc. We are, all of us, born into an absolutely free existence (for Sartre), but all of us are born into a situation of some sort, and our facticity is the way Sartre describes this element of being born into situation.

        I'm a female, Canadian bluenoser born in 1967. This I cannot change about myself, no matter what I try to do. This is the facticity of my existence.

        My absolute freedom comes into play in the sense that I am the only one who ultimately has contol over the attitude I take toward this particular, canadian, female, nova scotian, situation I find myself in.

        Lorna


        Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@...> wrote:
        eduard,

        Don't think many of us here are pure existentialists with a
        capital "E". I'll have to look into facticity, but I'm sure it means
        more than just real facts. Maybe someone here on the list can give us
        a condensed definition. I'm a realist in my everyday life, but an
        optimist for the big picture.

        Mary Jo

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home wrote:
        > Mary Jo,
        >
        > It does matter which comes first from an Existentialist
        > point of view. It gets back to the old idea of the blank
        > sheet or whatever it is called. The idea is that you start
        > off from zero and then through life and experience, you
        > create yourself. Thus you exist before you have essence.
        > Of course, this does raise the question of what is
        > "essence". Some would say that there are some essences
        > which are genetic. But as I mentioned before, the
        > Existentialist covers this by allocating such things to
        > "facticity". I am not that sure what facticity means,
        > however, it does serve to get around the problem.
        >
        > I agree that the hooded-man and the femme-sage [perhaps we
        > should use the French term -- homme sage -- for the
        > hooded-man] are the same. To a large extent the femme-sage
        > has had a harder time of things because of opposition by the
        > establishment.
        >
        > Yes, only a few manage to make the stage of homme-sage. I
        > keep thinking of the movie, "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"
        > where Walter Houston plays that role. When the Indians find
        > the three of them -- Walter Houston, Tim Holt, and Humphrey
        > Bogart -- they demand that Houston stay with them, because
        > of his value as a healer.
        >
        > eduard
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Mary Jo Malo"
        > To:
        > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:40 AM
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: God??? and the hooded-man
        >
        >
        > > eduard,
        > >
        > > Yes, I think I understand what you're saying and asking.
        > My
        > > philosophy allows me to have essence and existence,
        > because I always
        > > am :) Does it matter which comes first? Here are some more
        > thoughts.
        > >
        > > As we said earlier the wise elder was an important part of
        > many
        > > societies. The Church usurped this role when it's
        > archbishops spoke
        > > at the right hand of the kings. It's wisdom came from
        > absolute power
        > > and authority and the written "word" of god. But there was
        > always an
        > > underground stream of freethinkers who knew that wisdom
        > was
        > > individual and not dispensed by the state. The archetype
        > or pattern
        > > of the wise elder, however, has not left us. The hooded
        > one or the
        > > wise crone was the natural or pagan guide, such as poets
        > and artists,
        > > who spoke directly to our experiences as Joseph Campbell
        > would say.
        > > Carl Jung said they come to us in dreams.
        > >
        > > Is there a pattern of character that we naturally fall
        > into with age?
        > > Perhaps, but I don't think we could separate that from the
        > influence
        > > of our society which often defines our roles.
        > >
        > > The difference between mere fatherhood and the hooded one
        > is that
        > > this wise elder is one amongst the many. He is a unique
        > member of his
        > > society. Not all adults were the wise ones. They were
        > special with a
        > > special function. Like we said before, age is no guarantee
        > of wisdom.
        > > There is a humility in wisdom which knows there is so much
        > more to
        > > learn. It's a humility which honors individuality and has
        > confidence
        > > in inevitability and unpredictability. The sage often has
        > a wicked
        > > sense of humor. (I loved Nicol Williamson's Merlin in
        > "Excalibur")
        > >
        > > Today, we existentialists sit at the knees of the writers
        > and other
        > > examples of free thinkers who share their wisdom through
        > the written
        > > word and the arts.
        > >
        > > As to your question of whether there is a difference
        > between the male
        > > and female sage, I'd say no. The sage is a completely
        > integrated
        > > personality who contains both attributes. The sage speaks
        > from both
        > > the natural world (magic) and the intellectual sphere, a
        > person of
        > > experience and hope in the future of humanity. The sage
        > believes in
        > > and is part of the cosmos. The sage understands how it
        > works and can
        > > advise and affect change. The sage is trusted because of
        > experience.
        > >
        > > Mary Jo



        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

        TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        ---------------------------------
        Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT




        Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

        TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary Jo Malo
        Zith, Thanks. When you realize . . . is what s important. People have to be educated about choices and free will. In our society the essential meaning of
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 24, 2003
          Zith,

          Thanks. "When you realize . . ." is what's important. People have to
          be educated about choices and free will. In our society the essential
          meaning of what has become a mere slogan, is very important. If
          children are properly educated about free will and responsibility,
          they have a greater chance of avoiding or breaking free from negative
          facticities. I've observed that the human species is very childlike
          in that it is easily prey to suggestion and emotional vulnerability.
          We are imprinted behaviorily as children; indoctrinated by
          advertising; brainwashed by the media's hysteria; entranced by
          television and movies' fairy tales; and thus the difficulties of free
          will. Often it's a trauma or dramatic change of circumstances that
          can liberate us from facticity. We are predisposed to react, both
          biologically and mentally, and that keeps us a prisoner rather than
          an adventurer. Yes, a heavy dose of education at an early age is
          critical, as well as mature parents who provide environments
          conducive to such freedom.

          Mary Jo

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Zithromax" <zithromax@s...> wrote:
          > If you had absolute, total amnesia (as in the book/movie "Bourne
          Identity") it is possible that you would not know that you are a
          canadian bluenoser nor retain any cultural predispositions towards
          gender roles. In such a situation who you are is independent of
          facticity. Facticity can influence us, obviously. For example if we
          have plenty of cash we could act differently than if we are
          impoverished, e.g. we may not have the free will to buy a
          lamborghini. However, I think that when Heidegger or Sartre talk
          about Facticity they are really saying that free will and accepting
          responsibility for our actions frees us from a prison of
          facticities. When you realize that who you are is based on the
          decisions you make independently of things like gender, age, and
          birth then you realize your free will, and a deeper understanding of
          who you are. I think this is why some people enjoy primitive
          camping, rock climbing, and survivalish stuff. Such activities can
          represent a choice to radically change facticity, if only for a
          weekend, and in taking on nature we can better understand ourselves.
          >
          > Zith
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Lorna Landry
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:04 PM
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Facticity
          >
          >
          > I think facticity means those circumstances of your existence
          over which you have no control, such as time and place of birth, sex,
          etc. We are, all of us, born into an absolutely free existence (for
          Sartre), but all of us are born into a situation of some sort, and
          our facticity is the way Sartre describes this element of being born
          into situation.
          >
          > I'm a female, Canadian bluenoser born in 1967. This I cannot
          change about myself, no matter what I try to do. This is the
          facticity of my existence.
          >
          > My absolute freedom comes into play in the sense that I am the
          only one who ultimately has contol over the attitude I take toward
          this particular, canadian, female, nova scotian, situation I find
          myself in.
          >
          > Lorna
          >
          >
          > Mary Jo Malo <alcyon11@y...> wrote:
          > eduard,
          >
          > Don't think many of us here are pure existentialists with a
          > capital "E". I'll have to look into facticity, but I'm sure it
          means
          > more than just real facts. Maybe someone here on the list can
          give us
          > a condensed definition. I'm a realist in my everyday life, but an
          > optimist for the big picture.
          >
          > Mary Jo
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduard at home wrote:
          > > Mary Jo,
          > >
          > > It does matter which comes first from an Existentialist
          > > point of view. It gets back to the old idea of the blank
          > > sheet or whatever it is called. The idea is that you start
          > > off from zero and then through life and experience, you
          > > create yourself. Thus you exist before you have essence.
          > > Of course, this does raise the question of what is
          > > "essence". Some would say that there are some essences
          > > which are genetic. But as I mentioned before, the
          > > Existentialist covers this by allocating such things to
          > > "facticity". I am not that sure what facticity means,
          > > however, it does serve to get around the problem.
          > >
          > > I agree that the hooded-man and the femme-sage [perhaps we
          > > should use the French term -- homme sage -- for the
          > > hooded-man] are the same. To a large extent the femme-sage
          > > has had a harder time of things because of opposition by the
          > > establishment.
          > >
          > > Yes, only a few manage to make the stage of homme-sage. I
          > > keep thinking of the movie, "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"
          > > where Walter Houston plays that role. When the Indians find
          > > the three of them -- Walter Houston, Tim Holt, and Humphrey
          > > Bogart -- they demand that Houston stay with them, because
          > > of his value as a healer.
          > >
          > > eduard
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Mary Jo Malo"
          > > To:
          > > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:40 AM
          > > Subject: [existlist] Re: God??? and the hooded-man
          > >
          > >
          > > > eduard,
          > > >
          > > > Yes, I think I understand what you're saying and asking.
          > > My
          > > > philosophy allows me to have essence and existence,
          > > because I always
          > > > am :) Does it matter which comes first? Here are some more
          > > thoughts.
          > > >
          > > > As we said earlier the wise elder was an important part of
          > > many
          > > > societies. The Church usurped this role when it's
          > > archbishops spoke
          > > > at the right hand of the kings. It's wisdom came from
          > > absolute power
          > > > and authority and the written "word" of god. But there was
          > > always an
          > > > underground stream of freethinkers who knew that wisdom
          > > was
          > > > individual and not dispensed by the state. The archetype
          > > or pattern
          > > > of the wise elder, however, has not left us. The hooded
          > > one or the
          > > > wise crone was the natural or pagan guide, such as poets
          > > and artists,
          > > > who spoke directly to our experiences as Joseph Campbell
          > > would say.
          > > > Carl Jung said they come to us in dreams.
          > > >
          > > > Is there a pattern of character that we naturally fall
          > > into with age?
          > > > Perhaps, but I don't think we could separate that from the
          > > influence
          > > > of our society which often defines our roles.
          > > >
          > > > The difference between mere fatherhood and the hooded one
          > > is that
          > > > this wise elder is one amongst the many. He is a unique
          > > member of his
          > > > society. Not all adults were the wise ones. They were
          > > special with a
          > > > special function. Like we said before, age is no guarantee
          > > of wisdom.
          > > > There is a humility in wisdom which knows there is so much
          > > more to
          > > > learn. It's a humility which honors individuality and has
          > > confidence
          > > > in inevitability and unpredictability. The sage often has
          > > a wicked
          > > > sense of humor. (I loved Nicol Williamson's Merlin in
          > > "Excalibur")
          > > >
          > > > Today, we existentialists sit at the knees of the writers
          > > and other
          > > > examples of free thinkers who share their wisdom through
          > > the written
          > > > word and the arts.
          > > >
          > > > As to your question of whether there is a difference
          > > between the male
          > > > and female sage, I'd say no. The sage is a completely
          > > integrated
          > > > personality who contains both attributes. The sage speaks
          > > from both
          > > > the natural world (magic) and the intellectual sphere, a
          > > person of
          > > > experience and hope in the future of humanity. The sage
          > > believes in
          > > > and is part of the cosmos. The sage understands how it
          > > works and can
          > > > advise and affect change. The sage is trusted because of
          > > experience.
          > > >
          > > > Mary Jo
          >
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.