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Re: [existlist] theism was Santa

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  • Sue McPherson
    ... god / s. Are you sure the -ic is used with the word theist? I don t remember hearing that before. If a person believes in one god, they are a theist, if
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 29, 2002
      Mark wrote:
      >
      > > to my understanding a theistic person is one who believes in gods.
      >> God or gods. The number is irrelevant. Again the stress is on external
      god> / s.

      Are you sure the -ic is used with the word theist? I don't
      remember hearing that before. If a person believes in one
      god, they are a theist, if they believe in many gods they are
      pantheist, if they don't believe in god at all they are atheist.
      I am quite sure that pantheism includes the idea of different
      religions, not just of many gods within one religion. It is
      somewhat related to what eduardo talks about, when he
      suggests going for whatever religious beleif is convenient or
      best for the situation. But there's no reason why pantheism
      would not include gods that are seen as coming from within*.

      Sue McPherson
    • Mark Tindall
      ... Yep. Read the work of John Spong ... the theistic god descrtoibing the god out there rather than the god within . ... The type of belief I am talking
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 30, 2002
        Sue wrote:

        > Are you sure the -ic is used with the word theist?

        Yep. Read the work of John Spong ...'the theistic god' descrtoibing the god
        'out there' rather than the 'god within'.


        > I am quite sure that pantheism includes the idea of different
        > religions, not just of many gods within one religion.

        The type of belief I am talking about is is panENtheism.


        > It is somewhat related to what eduardo talks about, when he
        > suggests going for whatever religious beleif is convenient or
        > best for the situation.

        Take whatever is good and spit out the rest.


        Mark
      • Sue McPherson
        Yes, okay, I see that now, how theistic is used. Yes, you are right. And I looked again at what you wrote originally - to my understanding a theistic
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 30, 2002
          Yes, okay, I see that now, how theistic is used. Yes,
          you are right. And I looked again at what you wrote
          originally - " to my understanding a theistic person is
          one who believes in gods". Something didn't seem
          quite right about it and I think now it may be that the
          term theistic is used to describe the word "person".
          And the phrase "theistic person", doesn't make sense
          to me, although suing it with other words could make
          sense. A theistic person, to me, would be a priest or
          a nun. Yet you use the term theistic below to
          describe God - as in "theistic God", which again
          doesn't make sense to me. Is there another meaning to
          theism and theistic other than "belief in god".

          I don't follow what you're talking about and I have
          never heard the word panentheism.

          Sue McPherson


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mark Tindall" <mbtin@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 10:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] theism was Santa


          > Sue wrote:
          >
          > > Are you sure the -ic is used with the word theist?
          >
          > Yep. Read the work of John Spong ...'the theistic god' descrtoibing the
          god
          > 'out there' rather than the 'god within'.
          >
          >
          > > I am quite sure that pantheism includes the idea of different
          > > religions, not just of many gods within one religion.
          >
          > The type of belief I am talking about is is panENtheism.
          >
          >
          > > It is somewhat related to what eduardo talks about, when he
          > > suggests going for whatever religious beleif is convenient or
          > > best for the situation.
          >
          > Take whatever is good and spit out the rest.
          >
          >
          > Mark
          >
          >
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        • Mark Tindall
          ... I have assumed too much of the reader. Sorry. I ll try again. ;-) The theistic God is the God of theism usually associated with the bible who lives in
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 31, 2002
            Sue wrote:

            >Yet you use the term theistic below to
            > describe God - as in "theistic God", which again
            > doesn't make sense to me. Is there another meaning to
            > theism and theistic other than "belief in god".

            I have assumed too much of the reader. Sorry. I'll try again. ;-)

            The "theistic God" is the God of theism usually associated with the bible
            who lives in heaven, sends out directives and judges you so you have to make
            him happy by doing what he wants.

            This theistic God lives in a pre-modern three tiered universe with heaven
            above and hell below and earth in the middle .... now proven to not exist
            through astronomy and geology. The church creeds explain the nature of this
            God but the past creeds of the church cannot be taken as literal fact for a
            questioning contemporary person. God is portrayed in the bible as invading
            life now and then to accomplish his divine will but now no-one goes to a
            prayer meeting with an umbrella expecting rain in the middle of a drought.
            Rewards and punishments in the afterlife are no longer motivators of our
            behaviour. This theistic God of the past seems to be unemployed as science
            has taken over.

            In short, as John Spong states, "theism is a belief in in an external,
            personal, supernatural, and potentially invasive Being" and is one
            definition of God out of many. It is now being rejected as an image of God
            by Christians.

            The theistic God is dead (i.e. The God associated with theism) but that does
            not necessarily mean that God is dead. The death of the theistic God has
            been heralded by people like Paul Tillich who place God at the centre of
            life ... the ground of being. Distant images of God found in theism are
            being replaced by images of depth ... the God within.

            God is a limited human construct. Objective truth is now replaced with a
            journey. We are all on that journey. Contemporay Christians are asking
            "What image of God suits us best now?" This involves sharing ideas with all
            other religions and philosophies, taking the good and spitting out the bad.
            This is the evolution of what Bonhoeffer called 'religionless Christianity'
            or what John Robinson called 'worldly holiness'. It is an ever changing
            process.

            Hence my belief that exitentialism has much to offer in this area ....
            beginning with the work of Kierkegaard. The same existential concerns are
            being looked at: authentic life, freedom, individuality, responsibility,
            choice, alienation, angst and death.

            (I joined this list to learn more about Heidegger ... but that's another
            story.)


            >I have never heard the word panentheism.

            It shares with pantheism the belief that God is in all. However panentheism
            also views God as more than the sum of the creation. God both within and
            without the physical world .... more than can be imagined by a finite mind.

            Hope this helps.

            I recommend the work of John Spong and also Karen Armstrong's 'A History of
            God'.


            Mark
          • eduard
            Mark, I understand where you are going with this, but I don t think that the average person is inclined to a sort of pantheistic god. Even in the eastern
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 31, 2002
              Mark,

              I understand where you are going with this, but I don't think that the
              average person is inclined to a sort of pantheistic god. Even in the
              eastern philosophies such as Taoism, there is a religious side which
              involves gods of one sort or another which one prays to. The fact is
              that humans are evolved to believe in something beyond themselves.
              And to which they can extend their emotions and desires.

              As to Existentialism, I don't see this particular philosophy as having
              any religious orientation. That does not mean that individuals who
              may espouse this philosophy are not also religious in some fashion.

              The change that is required within Christianity is not a change of the
              god, but rather to have the church use words that are understood
              within the present environment. What is "salvation"?? What is "sin"??
              Why is it necessary for Christ to return when God is supposed to be
              controlling things?? Why did God allow something like 60 million
              people to die in WW2??

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark Tindall [mailto:mbtin@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 5:50 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] theism was Santa


              Sue wrote:

              >Yet you use the term theistic below to
              > describe God - as in "theistic God", which again
              > doesn't make sense to me. Is there another meaning to
              > theism and theistic other than "belief in god".

              I have assumed too much of the reader. Sorry. I'll try again. ;-)

              The "theistic God" is the God of theism usually associated with the
              bible
              who lives in heaven, sends out directives and judges you so you have
              to make
              him happy by doing what he wants.

              This theistic God lives in a pre-modern three tiered universe with
              heaven
              above and hell below and earth in the middle .... now proven to not
              exist
              through astronomy and geology. The church creeds explain the nature
              of this
              God but the past creeds of the church cannot be taken as literal fact
              for a
              questioning contemporary person. God is portrayed in the bible as
              invading
              life now and then to accomplish his divine will but now no-one goes to
              a
              prayer meeting with an umbrella expecting rain in the middle of a
              drought.
              Rewards and punishments in the afterlife are no longer motivators of
              our
              behaviour. This theistic God of the past seems to be unemployed as
              science
              has taken over.

              In short, as John Spong states, "theism is a belief in in an external,
              personal, supernatural, and potentially invasive Being" and is one
              definition of God out of many. It is now being rejected as an image
              of God
              by Christians.

              The theistic God is dead (i.e. The God associated with theism) but
              that does
              not necessarily mean that God is dead. The death of the theistic God
              has
              been heralded by people like Paul Tillich who place God at the centre
              of
              life ... the ground of being. Distant images of God found in theism
              are
              being replaced by images of depth ... the God within.

              God is a limited human construct. Objective truth is now replaced
              with a
              journey. We are all on that journey. Contemporay Christians are
              asking
              "What image of God suits us best now?" This involves sharing ideas
              with all
              other religions and philosophies, taking the good and spitting out the
              bad.
              This is the evolution of what Bonhoeffer called 'religionless
              Christianity'
              or what John Robinson called 'worldly holiness'. It is an ever
              changing
              process.

              Hence my belief that exitentialism has much to offer in this area ....
              beginning with the work of Kierkegaard. The same existential concerns
              are
              being looked at: authentic life, freedom, individuality,
              responsibility,
              choice, alienation, angst and death.

              (I joined this list to learn more about Heidegger ... but that's
              another
              story.)


              >I have never heard the word panentheism.

              It shares with pantheism the belief that God is in all. However
              panentheism
              also views God as more than the sum of the creation. God both within
              and
              without the physical world .... more than can be imagined by a finite
              mind.

              Hope this helps.

              I recommend the work of John Spong and also Karen Armstrong's 'A
              History of
              God'.


              Mark


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