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Re: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?

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  • Bill Harris
    Lorna, The hypothesis of return is hopelessly flawed. No two moments can be the same and certainly no two situations which are by mass association even more
    Message 1 of 35 , Dec 5, 2002
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      Lorna, The hypothesis of return is hopelessly flawed. No two moments can be the same and certainly no two situations which are by mass association even more complexed. Learning from metaphor holds the same perils as dealing through a middleman. It is better to cut him out. Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Lorna Landry
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:25 AM
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?



      Hi Shari,

      I tend to agree with you about Neitzsche's doctrine of eternal return. I don't think he's putting this forth as a description of some sort of metaphysical reality; rather, we should live our lives such that we would be willing to make the very same choices over and over again. I know some critics have tried to say Neitzsche was saying that this actually does happen - that the world and everything in it repeats itself over and over again, but I don't agree. I think all he was saying is that we should live our lives AS IF this is what occurs. I wonder how many people can say that about their own lives?

      Lorna


      shari hyder <hydersjmj@...> wrote:Eduard,

      I would have suggested the same to Steven. It's amazing what you can
      find by typing in the relevant keywords in www.google.com (that's for
      Steven's benefit). I was studying Hobbes not too long ago, in particular
      "Leviathan." The whole text is available on the net. The context in
      which Hobbes was studied was the Treaty of Waitangi, signed between the
      Maori of New Zealand and the Crown, represented by Queen Victoria. This
      veers more towards political philosophy, rather than existentialism, an
      area Pat Collins has excelled at in the not so distant past.

      I also was studying Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. I find Schopenhauer to
      be realistic rather than the pessimist he is oft portrayed as; and
      Nietzsche's Doctrine of Eternal Recurrence is worthy of much discussion.

      My understanding of Nietzsche's Doctrine is; "would a person want to
      have his whole life over again if given the choice." This is the
      premise from which one begins; least from my perspective. Anyone willing
      to discuss?

      shari


      -----Original Message-----
      From: eduard [mailto:yeoman@...]
      Sent: Thursday, 5 December 2002 3:04 p.m.
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?

      db,

      if you re-read your message, you will know why I am not posting on
      this list as much as I used to. It has degenerated to meaningliness
      ...

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: canis os [mailto:dawgbone86406@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:17 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Mobius_Eclectic@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?


      Or, perhaps Bill just wants his ass kissed.
      db



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      ----Original Message Follows----
      From: eduard
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?
      Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:08:45 -0500

      Bill,

      What's your problem?? Perhaps you are objecting to my advice that
      someone should take a few seconds to find information for themselves.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:30 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?


      Eduard, will you please process Dostevieskis Brothers Kalamazoo so I
      can infuse it I.V. I would like that posted immediately, if not
      sooner. Oh and by the way, can you also kiss my ass? Guess Who?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: eduard
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 3:43 PM
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Who has Sartre's Book The Wall?


      Steven,

      You know ... it is a very simple process of typing [sartre "the
      wall"]
      into your browser and you will get a ton of sources. In fact you
      can
      get the entire English translation.

      eduard


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    • shari hyder
      Lorna, Eduard, & James, Thank you all for your considered responses; and my apologies for not responding sooner. I recall watching Groundhog Day not so long
      Message 35 of 35 , Dec 7, 2002
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        Lorna, Eduard, & James,

        Thank you all for your considered responses; and my apologies for not
        responding sooner. I recall watching "Groundhog Day" not so long ago.
        The premise there was the lead character having to live just one day
        over and over *with* awareness the same thing happening all over again.
        The others he encountered had no memory of previous encounters with him;
        only he did.

        Still, Lorna, you are right to suggest Nietzsche had Life Affirmation in
        mind with his doctrine. Personally, I would like my life re-visited on
        the condition of 'awareness.' If the Devil himself appeared before me,
        and made such an offer, that would be my one condition. In such an
        instance, would I be blessed or cursed? See below for extract from
        Nietzsche's writings.

        Eduard, true, and perhaps your thoughts tie in with the Indian concept
        of Karma and Reincarnation. If I were to believe in both concepts, then
        surely I will live my life with the expectation of my 'soul' reaching a
        "higher" plane than at the level it is now endowed within the physical
        body. The adversities encountered in this lifetime are to be learned
        from. For example, say my husband committed suicide. I could be driven
        to such despair that I take my own life, and those of my children. In
        this case, it may be said I did not learn anything from the experience
        of suicide. Rather, I should regard his act as something I myself had
        done in a previous life, and for the suicide of someone so close to
        occur in this lifetime only means I have that lesson to learn; that
        suicide may not be an option.

        James, ditto to all above. Only, what does 'tt' mean?


        The heaviest weight - What if, some day or night, a demon were to crawl
        after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life,
        just as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live again,
        and innumerable times once more; and there will be nothing new in it,
        but rather every pain and every pleasure and every thought and every
        sigh, and everything unspeakably small or great within it, must come
        back to you, and everything in the same order and succession - even this
        spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I
        myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over again and
        again, forever - and you along with it, speck of dust!"

        Would you not throw yourself down, gnash your teeth, and curse the demon
        who spoke in this way? Or have you once experienced a colossal moment,
        where you would have answered him" "You are a god and I have never heard
        anything more godlike!" If this thought were to take control of you, it
        would transform you as you are, or perhaps chew you to bits. The
        question in each and every thing: "Do you want this again, and even
        countless times again?" would lay upon your actions as the heaviest
        weight! Or how positive must one's attitude be towards oneself and
        towards life in order to want nothing more than this final, eternal
        confirmation and seal?"

        Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Book Four, S341.


        shari

        Hi Shari,

        "I tend to agree with you about Neitzsche's doctrine of eternal return.
        I don't think he's putting this forth as a description of some sort of
        metaphysical reality; rather, we should live our lives such that we
        would be willing to make the very same choices over and over again. I
        know some critics have tried to say Neitzsche was saying that this
        actually does happen - that the world and everything in it repeats
        itself over and over again, but I don't agree. I think all he was saying
        is that we should live our lives AS IF this is what occurs. I wonder how
        many people can say that about their own lives?"

        Lorna


        "We often think about "living life over", but that is with a lot of hind
        sight. If only we had done this or that. The fact is that you cant
        live your life over. It's a one time thing. And even if you could, it
        would not be with the knowledge of things that you might have done
        wrong. Starting over means likely making the same errors."

        Eduard


        "but the thrust of neitzsche's question is not about we having
        hindsights if
        we can live over again (we dont live again, and nietzsche knew tt); it
        is
        centered more on one's choice and attitude about the kind of life one is

        leading now; it is tt kind of psychological/existential question whose
        aim
        is to create ownership and awareness, rather than a scientific or
        factual
        question."

        james.


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