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RE: [existlist] Human Nature

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  • Linda Jordan
    Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are their own centers of existence. The first I don t entirely agree with. I would say
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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      Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are
      their own centers of existence.

      The first I don't entirely agree with. I would say that younger people tend
      to see themselves only in mirrors. Expect some rambling... As I have gotten
      older, I have become far more self-reliant and self-aware, thereby
      permitting me to no longer rely on "mirrors" (others) quite as much.
      Mirrors are useful though. However, they reflect only those things we
      choose to see in them. I have lost a lot of weight recently. I am the same
      person. I am now getting more attention due to the weight loss, from both
      men and women. Therefore, syllogism-wise, the attention I am getting
      currently results from this weight loss. (Of course, I'm probably more
      self-confident as well, this perhaps causing more people to be drawn to me.)
      Regardless, this kind of pisses me off. As would be expected.

      This statement seems to apply to you particularly. You mention business
      ownership, jeep, wanting others to know that you perhaps have money. You
      mention many writers, philosophers, etc., wanting others to know you are
      well-read and a thinker. These things are important to you. And you want
      others to realize this. The mirroring desire here is very clear. Know what
      I mean?

      Next statement: People are the centers of their existences. People are the
      centers of their existences, if they are honest/mature enough to admit it.
      As you probably have come to realize, this self-existence centeredness does
      not have to be self-centeredness in the usual sense of the word. A positive
      self-centeredness is possible and desirable.

      Your two statements are almost contradictory. Almost. Needing validation
      from the world is very useful at times of course. However, if we are truly
      centered in ourselves, we wouldn't need that validation. There must be some
      balance, I believe. If, in our self-reliance, we find support for our
      beliefs, values, etc., then our self-concept is reinforced and therefore
      stronger.

      Hell, I don't know. These thoughts are wonderful. I am currently
      unemployed. I am reading/writing a lot more these days. My life
      objectively is pretty lousy. But having these kinds of ideas to think about
      is wonderful and somehow sustains me.

      >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
      >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
      >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:21:15 -0700
      >
      >Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
      >to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
      >previous life taught.
      >
      >Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
      >are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
      >them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
      >interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.
      >
      >I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
      >state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
      >overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
      >very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think
      >they
      >know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.
      >
      >Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
      >impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!
      >
      >
      >- C. S. Wyatt
      >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
      >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
      >
      >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
      >shall be.
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you
      >really
      > > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
      > > their body and
      > > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
      >

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    • Bill Harris
      Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept ,carried in so
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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        Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
        and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
        ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
        ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
        benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
        construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
        problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
        work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
        must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
        wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


        > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
        Curiously,
        > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
        allows
        > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
        > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
        > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
        >
        > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
        > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
        > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
        > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
        > part, meets my needs.
        >
        > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
        > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
        > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
        > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
        >
        > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
        common
        > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
        > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
        > obtain what they want.
        >
        > - C. S. Wyatt
        > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
        > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
        >
        > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
        > shall be.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Linda Jordan
        RIGHT ON, BILL! ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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          RIGHT ON, BILL!


          >From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
          >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature
          >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:36:16 -0500
          >
          >Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
          >and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
          >,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
          >,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
          >benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
          >construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
          >problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
          >work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
          >must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
          >wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
          >----- Original Message -----
          >From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
          >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
          >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
          >
          >
          > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
          >Curiously,
          > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
          >allows
          > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
          > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
          > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
          > >
          > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
          >government.
          > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
          > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
          >a
          > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
          > > part, meets my needs.
          > >
          > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
          >the
          > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
          >publishing
          > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
          > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
          > >
          > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
          >common
          > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
          >true
          > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
          >to
          > > obtain what they want.
          > >
          > > - C. S. Wyatt
          > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
          > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
          > >
          > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
          >I
          > > shall be.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Edward Alf
          Chris et Folks, i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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            Chris et Folks,

            i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a
            while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...

            selfishness is one of those words which has taken a beating in the public
            mind ... all action is selfish if we want a result ... even an action which
            we would want to be taken as unselfish is in a sense selfish ... it is good
            to be selfish ...

            eduard

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:24 AM
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


            > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
            Curiously,
            > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
            allows
            > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
            > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
            > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
            >
            > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
            > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
            > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
            > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
            > part, meets my needs.
            >
            > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
            > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
            > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
            > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
            >
            > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
            common
            > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
            > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
            > obtain what they want.
            >
            > - C. S. Wyatt
            > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
            > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
            >
            > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
            > shall be.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Edward Alf
            mi you and all, it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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              mi you and all,

              it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a
              desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
              ordinary and very human (i could extend it to non-human as well) quest ...
              why get into psychological egotists (whatever that is)? ...

              however if you wish to get into it ... one could argue that the person who
              abuses and tortures their body is seeking after something which is their own
              definition of pleasure ... and they in doing so, they are also seeking
              happiness by their definition ... whatever rock your boat ...

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "mi yoo" <mihwa12@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:07 AM
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


              > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
              > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body
              and
              > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
              >
              >
              > >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
              > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
              > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
              > >
              > >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
              Curiously,
              > >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
              allows
              > >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
              > >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
              > >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
              > >
              > >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
              > >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
              > >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
              a
              > >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
              > >part, meets my needs.
              > >
              > >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
              > >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
              publishing
              > >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
              > >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
              > >
              > >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
              > >common
              > >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
              true
              > >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
              > >obtain what they want.
              > >
              > >- C. S. Wyatt
              > >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
              > >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
              > >
              > >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
              I
              > >shall be.
              > >
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Edward Alf
              Bill et folks, i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of happiness was unknown until stated by an american president .... eduard ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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                Bill et folks,

                i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of
                happiness was unknown until stated by an american president ....

                eduard


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature


                > Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                > and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                > ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                > ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                > benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                > construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                > problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                > work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                > must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                > wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                > Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                >
                >
                > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                > Curiously,
                > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                > allows
                > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                > >
                > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                government.
                > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                a
                > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                > > part, meets my needs.
                > >
                > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                the
                > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                publishing
                > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                > >
                > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                > common
                > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                true
                > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                to
                > > obtain what they want.
                > >
                > > - C. S. Wyatt
                > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                > >
                > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                I
                > > shall be.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
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