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RE: [existlist] Human Nature

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  • C. S. Wyatt
    I believe people naturally seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously, some people are wired through nature or nurture (though free will allows us to
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 4, 2001
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      I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
      some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
      us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
      self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
      nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.

      In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
      These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
      dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
      society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
      part, meets my needs.

      I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
      lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
      consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
      promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.

      On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too common
      in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
      pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
      obtain what they want.

      - C. S. Wyatt
      http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
      http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

      I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
      shall be.
    • mi yoo
      Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and mind? Do
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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        Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
        think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and
        mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?


        >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
        >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
        >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
        >
        >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
        >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
        >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
        >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
        >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
        >
        >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
        >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
        >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
        >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
        >part, meets my needs.
        >
        >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
        >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
        >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
        >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
        >
        >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
        >common
        >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
        >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
        >obtain what they want.
        >
        >- C. S. Wyatt
        >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
        >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
        >
        >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
        >shall be.
        >
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • C. S. Wyatt
        Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a previous
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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          Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
          to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
          previous life taught.

          Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
          are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
          them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
          interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.

          I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
          state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
          overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
          very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think they
          know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.

          Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
          impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!


          - C. S. Wyatt
          http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
          http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

          I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
          shall be.

          > -----Original Message-----
          > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
          > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
          > their body and
          > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
        • Linda Jordan
          Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are their own centers of existence. The first I don t entirely agree with. I would say
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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            Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are
            their own centers of existence.

            The first I don't entirely agree with. I would say that younger people tend
            to see themselves only in mirrors. Expect some rambling... As I have gotten
            older, I have become far more self-reliant and self-aware, thereby
            permitting me to no longer rely on "mirrors" (others) quite as much.
            Mirrors are useful though. However, they reflect only those things we
            choose to see in them. I have lost a lot of weight recently. I am the same
            person. I am now getting more attention due to the weight loss, from both
            men and women. Therefore, syllogism-wise, the attention I am getting
            currently results from this weight loss. (Of course, I'm probably more
            self-confident as well, this perhaps causing more people to be drawn to me.)
            Regardless, this kind of pisses me off. As would be expected.

            This statement seems to apply to you particularly. You mention business
            ownership, jeep, wanting others to know that you perhaps have money. You
            mention many writers, philosophers, etc., wanting others to know you are
            well-read and a thinker. These things are important to you. And you want
            others to realize this. The mirroring desire here is very clear. Know what
            I mean?

            Next statement: People are the centers of their existences. People are the
            centers of their existences, if they are honest/mature enough to admit it.
            As you probably have come to realize, this self-existence centeredness does
            not have to be self-centeredness in the usual sense of the word. A positive
            self-centeredness is possible and desirable.

            Your two statements are almost contradictory. Almost. Needing validation
            from the world is very useful at times of course. However, if we are truly
            centered in ourselves, we wouldn't need that validation. There must be some
            balance, I believe. If, in our self-reliance, we find support for our
            beliefs, values, etc., then our self-concept is reinforced and therefore
            stronger.

            Hell, I don't know. These thoughts are wonderful. I am currently
            unemployed. I am reading/writing a lot more these days. My life
            objectively is pretty lousy. But having these kinds of ideas to think about
            is wonderful and somehow sustains me.

            >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
            >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
            >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:21:15 -0700
            >
            >Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
            >to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
            >previous life taught.
            >
            >Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
            >are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
            >them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
            >interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.
            >
            >I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
            >state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
            >overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
            >very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think
            >they
            >know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.
            >
            >Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
            >impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!
            >
            >
            >- C. S. Wyatt
            >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
            >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
            >
            >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
            >shall be.
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you
            >really
            > > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
            > > their body and
            > > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
            >

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          • thebookdoc@aol.com
            As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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              <<...and in a previous life taught.>>

              As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
              stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
              perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
              beside what you fictionalize as memory.

              I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
              am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
              'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
              reality -- and past even less so.

              Richard
            • Linda Jordan
              I don t think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer? ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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                I don't think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that
                earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer?


                >From: thebookdoc@...
                >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [existlist] Re: Human Nature, the creation of foibles, and passing
                >by dilusions as if gases
                >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:04:52 -0000
                >
                ><<...and in a previous life taught.>>
                >
                >As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
                >stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
                >perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
                >beside what you fictionalize as memory.
                >
                >I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
                >am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
                >'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
                >reality -- and past even less so.
                >
                >Richard
                >

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              • Bill Harris
                Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept ,carried in so
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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                  Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                  and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                  ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                  ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                  benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                  construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                  problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                  work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                  must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                  wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                  > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                  Curiously,
                  > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                  allows
                  > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                  > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                  > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                  >
                  > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                  > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                  > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                  > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                  > part, meets my needs.
                  >
                  > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                  > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                  > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                  > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                  >
                  > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                  common
                  > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                  > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                  > obtain what they want.
                  >
                  > - C. S. Wyatt
                  > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                  > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                  >
                  > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                  > shall be.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                • Linda Jordan
                  RIGHT ON, BILL! ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
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                    RIGHT ON, BILL!


                    >From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                    >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature
                    >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:36:16 -0500
                    >
                    >Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                    >and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                    >,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                    >,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                    >benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                    >construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                    >problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                    >work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                    >must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                    >wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    >From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                    >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                    >
                    >
                    > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                    >Curiously,
                    > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                    >allows
                    > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                    > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                    > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                    > >
                    > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                    >government.
                    > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                    > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                    >a
                    > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                    > > part, meets my needs.
                    > >
                    > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                    >the
                    > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                    >publishing
                    > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                    > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                    > >
                    > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                    >common
                    > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                    >true
                    > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                    >to
                    > > obtain what they want.
                    > >
                    > > - C. S. Wyatt
                    > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                    > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                    > >
                    > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                    >I
                    > > shall be.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Edward Alf
                    Chris et Folks, i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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                      Chris et Folks,

                      i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a
                      while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...

                      selfishness is one of those words which has taken a beating in the public
                      mind ... all action is selfish if we want a result ... even an action which
                      we would want to be taken as unselfish is in a sense selfish ... it is good
                      to be selfish ...

                      eduard

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:24 AM
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                      > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                      Curiously,
                      > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                      allows
                      > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                      > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                      > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                      >
                      > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                      > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                      > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                      > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                      > part, meets my needs.
                      >
                      > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                      > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                      > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                      > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                      >
                      > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                      common
                      > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                      > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                      > obtain what they want.
                      >
                      > - C. S. Wyatt
                      > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                      > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                      >
                      > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                      > shall be.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Edward Alf
                      mi you and all, it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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                        mi you and all,

                        it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a
                        desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                        ordinary and very human (i could extend it to non-human as well) quest ...
                        why get into psychological egotists (whatever that is)? ...

                        however if you wish to get into it ... one could argue that the person who
                        abuses and tortures their body is seeking after something which is their own
                        definition of pleasure ... and they in doing so, they are also seeking
                        happiness by their definition ... whatever rock your boat ...

                        eduard

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "mi yoo" <mihwa12@...>
                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:07 AM
                        Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                        > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                        > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body
                        and
                        > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                        > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                        > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
                        > >
                        > >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                        Curiously,
                        > >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                        allows
                        > >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                        > >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                        > >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                        > >
                        > >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                        > >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                        > >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                        a
                        > >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                        > >part, meets my needs.
                        > >
                        > >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                        > >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                        publishing
                        > >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                        > >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                        > >
                        > >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                        > >common
                        > >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                        true
                        > >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                        > >obtain what they want.
                        > >
                        > >- C. S. Wyatt
                        > >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                        > >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                        > >
                        > >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                        I
                        > >shall be.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Edward Alf
                        Bill et folks, i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of happiness was unknown until stated by an american president .... eduard ...
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
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                          Bill et folks,

                          i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of
                          happiness was unknown until stated by an american president ....

                          eduard


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:36 PM
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature


                          > Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                          > and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                          > ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                          > ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                          > benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                          > construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                          > problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                          > work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                          > must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                          > wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                          >
                          >
                          > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                          > Curiously,
                          > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                          > allows
                          > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                          > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                          > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                          > >
                          > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                          government.
                          > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                          > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                          a
                          > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                          > > part, meets my needs.
                          > >
                          > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                          the
                          > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                          publishing
                          > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                          > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                          > >
                          > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                          > common
                          > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                          true
                          > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                          to
                          > > obtain what they want.
                          > >
                          > > - C. S. Wyatt
                          > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                          > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
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