Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [existlist] Janus Head

Expand Messages
  • Edward Alf
    Brent, thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with more interest and perhaps i will find his book .... eduard ... From:
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Brent,

      thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with more
      interest and perhaps i will find his book ....

      eduard

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <bdeanrob@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:53 PM
      Subject: [existlist] Janus Head


      > Dear Eduard,
      >
      > I'm happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not
      > know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent
      > existential/phenomenological psychologists of the 20th century.
      > In the 1960's, his book *The Divided Self* sold millions of
      > copies, and his reportoire of work, including titles such as
      > *Self and Others* and *The Politics of Experience*, was directly
      > influenced by existential thinkers such as Heidegger, Sartre, and
      > Buber, as well as critical theory.
      >
      > The guest editor, Daniel Burston, has written two books on Laing,
      > and the contributors to the volume largely consists of authors
      > who knew and worked with Laing during his lifetime.
      >
      > In short, I would think that many of you on this list would enjoy
      > reading this special issue of Janus Head.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Brent
    • Lusa the Great
      unsubscribe yeah? tanks! ... ===== Miss-ouri lent Mississi-ippi her New Jersey. What did Dela-ware...? Da-kota!
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        unsubscribe yeah? tanks!
        --- Edward Alf <ealf@...> wrote:
        > Brent,
        >
        > thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with
        > more
        > interest and perhaps i will find his book ....
        >
        > eduard
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <bdeanrob@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:53 PM
        > Subject: [existlist] Janus Head
        >
        >
        > > Dear Eduard,
        > >
        > > I'm happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not
        > > know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent
        > > existential/phenomenological psychologists of the 20th century.
        > > In the 1960's, his book *The Divided Self* sold millions of
        > > copies, and his reportoire of work, including titles such as
        > > *Self and Others* and *The Politics of Experience*, was directly
        > > influenced by existential thinkers such as Heidegger, Sartre, and
        > > Buber, as well as critical theory.
        > >
        > > The guest editor, Daniel Burston, has written two books on Laing,
        > > and the contributors to the volume largely consists of authors
        > > who knew and worked with Laing during his lifetime.
        > >
        > > In short, I would think that many of you on this list would enjoy
        > > reading this special issue of Janus Head.
        > >
        > > Best wishes,
        > > Brent
        >
        >
        >
        >


        =====

        Miss-ouri lent Mississi-ippi her New Jersey. What did
        Dela-ware...? Da-kota!



        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
        http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
      • ennui
        Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I *despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of Pleaz unscrub me, I m un complate
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I
          *despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of "Pleaz
          unscrub me, I'm un complate moron" messages.

          So Moderator, if you're out there, please do this person a favour.
          Else Lusa, you might want to follow the instructions available at
          the bottom of every message you receive:

          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >

          To all else; thankyou for your continuing good-humoured and
          fascinating conversation, which lands in my inbox each day.

          ennui [readabookortalk-to-amouse]
        • Linda Jordan
          Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does anyone out there believe in the existence of human nature? ...
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does anyone
            out there believe in the existence of human nature?

            >From: "ennui" <ennui@...>
            >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
            >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 01:38:24 +0800
            >
            >Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I
            >*despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of "Pleaz
            >unscrub me, I'm un complate moron" messages.
            >
            >So Moderator, if you're out there, please do this person a favour.
            >Else Lusa, you might want to follow the instructions available at
            >the bottom of every message you receive:
            >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            >
            >To all else; thankyou for your continuing good-humoured and
            >fascinating conversation, which lands in my inbox each day.
            >
            >ennui [readabookortalk-to-amouse]

            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          • Edward Alf
            hi Linda, im not sure what your question is ... one could assume that human nature exists, since humans exist ... or perhaps you are asking if we are aware
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              hi Linda,

              im not sure what your question is ... one could assume that human nature
              exists, since humans exist ... or perhaps you are asking if we are aware
              what human nature is ...

              eduard

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:54 PM
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying


              >
              > Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does
              anyone
              > out there believe in the existence of human nature?
              >
            • C. S. Wyatt
              Lusa should now be gone... I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Lusa should now be gone...

                I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility
                seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store owner, I'm amazed
                by people on a daily basis.

                - C. S. Wyatt
                http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                shall be.
              • Linda Jordan
                But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your closing thought,
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz
                  not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your closing
                  thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                  accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                  John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think "The
                  Collector" too.

                  Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                  existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                  ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and believe
                  in human nature.



                  >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                  >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                  >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:54:41 -0700
                  >
                  >Lusa should now be gone...
                  >
                  >I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility
                  >seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store owner, I'm
                  >amazed
                  >by people on a daily basis.
                  >
                  >- C. S. Wyatt
                  >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                  >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                  >
                  >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                  >shall be.
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                • Edward Alf
                  Linda et al, i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Linda et al,

                    i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need
                    help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal responsibility ..
                    . well that is the way im interpreting it ...

                    i think that one could have an inclination towards existentialism and still
                    believe in human nature ... if only for reason that humans have a nature and
                    one might as well believe that this is the case ... but human nature covers
                    a wealth of characteristics ... which ones are we speaking of in relation to
                    existentialism? ... there is a human characteristic which is a desire to
                    hope for the best ... but i should think that hope in this sense is
                    contradicted, since the concept of existentialism is that one makes one's
                    own world by particular choices ... of course i suppose that one can still
                    be stoic about making choices and yet have hopes ...

                    anyway, the difficulty is that existentialism can have a variety of criteria
                    within its philosophy and human nature has a wide range of characteristics
                    .. which ones fit or dont fit with which ... wow, look at me, it is almost
                    as if i knew what i was talking about ...

                    im now into Odinism ... time to go to sleep and think about this .. see if i
                    wake up with some solution to my spiritual quest ...

                    the ottawa river is still covered with ice ... it will take a few more weeks
                    ... im optimistic that i wont miss the breakup this year ... i should think
                    that one of these days the temperature will get above 10c ....

                    have fun ..

                    eduard

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:16 PM
                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying


                    > But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz
                    > not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your
                    closing
                    > thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                    > accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                    > John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think
                    "The
                    > Collector" too.
                    >
                    > Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                    > existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                    > ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and believe
                    > in human nature.
                  • Linda Jordan
                    Human condition to hope for the best? I think not. One could consider the criminally insane. One could say that these folks hope for the best I suppose but
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 3, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Human condition to hope for the best? I think not. One could consider the
                      criminally insane. One could say that these folks hope for the best I
                      suppose but what is their best--to have their crime go undetected? --to wish
                      for the shortest sentence? One could also consider those human beings who
                      are otherwise flawed--for instance, those who are afflicted with some kind
                      of mental retardation. Do they hope for the best? How do we know? How do
                      we judge people who by predisposition think differently than the rest? Not
                      sure about any of this. All questions, to me at least, worthy of thought.


                      >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                      >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: Re: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                      >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:02:17 -0400
                      >
                      >Linda et al,
                      >
                      >i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need
                      >help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal responsibility
                      >..
                      >. well that is the way im interpreting it ...
                      >
                      >i think that one could have an inclination towards existentialism and still
                      >believe in human nature ... if only for reason that humans have a nature
                      >and
                      >one might as well believe that this is the case ... but human nature covers
                      >a wealth of characteristics ... which ones are we speaking of in relation
                      >to
                      >existentialism? ... there is a human characteristic which is a desire to
                      >hope for the best ... but i should think that hope in this sense is
                      >contradicted, since the concept of existentialism is that one makes one's
                      >own world by particular choices ... of course i suppose that one can still
                      >be stoic about making choices and yet have hopes ...
                      >
                      >anyway, the difficulty is that existentialism can have a variety of
                      >criteria
                      >within its philosophy and human nature has a wide range of characteristics
                      >.. which ones fit or dont fit with which ... wow, look at me, it is almost
                      >as if i knew what i was talking about ...
                      >
                      >im now into Odinism ... time to go to sleep and think about this .. see if
                      >i
                      >wake up with some solution to my spiritual quest ...
                      >
                      >the ottawa river is still covered with ice ... it will take a few more
                      >weeks
                      >... im optimistic that i wont miss the breakup this year ... i should think
                      >that one of these days the temperature will get above 10c ....
                      >
                      >have fun ..
                      >
                      >eduard
                      >
                      >----- Original Message -----
                      >From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
                      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:16 PM
                      >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                      >
                      >
                      > > But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do.
                      >Cuz
                      > > not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your
                      >closing
                      > > thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                      > > accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                      > > John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think
                      >"The
                      > > Collector" too.
                      > >
                      > > Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                      > > existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                      > > ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and
                      >believe
                      > > in human nature.
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    • C. S. Wyatt
                      I believe people naturally seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously, some people are wired through nature or nurture (though free will allows us to
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 4, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
                        some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
                        us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                        self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                        nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.

                        In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                        These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                        dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                        society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                        part, meets my needs.

                        I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                        lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                        consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                        promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.

                        On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too common
                        in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                        pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                        obtain what they want.

                        - C. S. Wyatt
                        http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                        http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                        I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                        shall be.
                      • mi yoo
                        Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and mind? Do
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                          think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and
                          mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?


                          >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                          >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                          >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
                          >
                          >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
                          >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
                          >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                          >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                          >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                          >
                          >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                          >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                          >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                          >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                          >part, meets my needs.
                          >
                          >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                          >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                          >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                          >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                          >
                          >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                          >common
                          >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                          >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                          >obtain what they want.
                          >
                          >- C. S. Wyatt
                          >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                          >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                          >
                          >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                          >shall be.
                          >
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        • C. S. Wyatt
                          Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a previous
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
                            to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
                            previous life taught.

                            Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
                            are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
                            them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
                            interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.

                            I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
                            state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
                            overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
                            very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think they
                            know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.

                            Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
                            impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!


                            - C. S. Wyatt
                            http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                            http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                            I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                            shall be.

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                            > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
                            > their body and
                            > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                          • Linda Jordan
                            Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are their own centers of existence. The first I don t entirely agree with. I would say
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are
                              their own centers of existence.

                              The first I don't entirely agree with. I would say that younger people tend
                              to see themselves only in mirrors. Expect some rambling... As I have gotten
                              older, I have become far more self-reliant and self-aware, thereby
                              permitting me to no longer rely on "mirrors" (others) quite as much.
                              Mirrors are useful though. However, they reflect only those things we
                              choose to see in them. I have lost a lot of weight recently. I am the same
                              person. I am now getting more attention due to the weight loss, from both
                              men and women. Therefore, syllogism-wise, the attention I am getting
                              currently results from this weight loss. (Of course, I'm probably more
                              self-confident as well, this perhaps causing more people to be drawn to me.)
                              Regardless, this kind of pisses me off. As would be expected.

                              This statement seems to apply to you particularly. You mention business
                              ownership, jeep, wanting others to know that you perhaps have money. You
                              mention many writers, philosophers, etc., wanting others to know you are
                              well-read and a thinker. These things are important to you. And you want
                              others to realize this. The mirroring desire here is very clear. Know what
                              I mean?

                              Next statement: People are the centers of their existences. People are the
                              centers of their existences, if they are honest/mature enough to admit it.
                              As you probably have come to realize, this self-existence centeredness does
                              not have to be self-centeredness in the usual sense of the word. A positive
                              self-centeredness is possible and desirable.

                              Your two statements are almost contradictory. Almost. Needing validation
                              from the world is very useful at times of course. However, if we are truly
                              centered in ourselves, we wouldn't need that validation. There must be some
                              balance, I believe. If, in our self-reliance, we find support for our
                              beliefs, values, etc., then our self-concept is reinforced and therefore
                              stronger.

                              Hell, I don't know. These thoughts are wonderful. I am currently
                              unemployed. I am reading/writing a lot more these days. My life
                              objectively is pretty lousy. But having these kinds of ideas to think about
                              is wonderful and somehow sustains me.

                              >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                              >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                              >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:21:15 -0700
                              >
                              >Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
                              >to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
                              >previous life taught.
                              >
                              >Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
                              >are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
                              >them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
                              >interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.
                              >
                              >I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
                              >state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
                              >overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
                              >very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think
                              >they
                              >know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.
                              >
                              >Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
                              >impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!
                              >
                              >
                              >- C. S. Wyatt
                              >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                              >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                              >
                              >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                              >shall be.
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you
                              >really
                              > > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
                              > > their body and
                              > > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                            • thebookdoc@aol.com
                              As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                <<...and in a previous life taught.>>

                                As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
                                stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
                                perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
                                beside what you fictionalize as memory.

                                I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
                                am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
                                'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
                                reality -- and past even less so.

                                Richard
                              • Linda Jordan
                                I don t think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer? ...
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I don't think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that
                                  earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer?


                                  >From: thebookdoc@...
                                  >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: [existlist] Re: Human Nature, the creation of foibles, and passing
                                  >by dilusions as if gases
                                  >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:04:52 -0000
                                  >
                                  ><<...and in a previous life taught.>>
                                  >
                                  >As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
                                  >stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
                                  >perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
                                  >beside what you fictionalize as memory.
                                  >
                                  >I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
                                  >am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
                                  >'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
                                  >reality -- and past even less so.
                                  >
                                  >Richard
                                  >

                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                • Bill Harris
                                  Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept ,carried in so
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                    and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                    ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                    ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                    benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                    construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                    problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                    work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                    must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                    wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                    > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                    Curiously,
                                    > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                    allows
                                    > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                    > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                    > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                    >
                                    > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                    > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                    > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                                    > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                    > part, meets my needs.
                                    >
                                    > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                    > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                                    > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                    > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                    >
                                    > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                    common
                                    > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                                    > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                    > obtain what they want.
                                    >
                                    > - C. S. Wyatt
                                    > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                    > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                    >
                                    > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                                    > shall be.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                  • Linda Jordan
                                    RIGHT ON, BILL! ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 5, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      RIGHT ON, BILL!


                                      >From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                                      >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      >Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature
                                      >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:36:16 -0500
                                      >
                                      >Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                      >and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                      >,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                      >,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                      >benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                      >construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                      >problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                      >work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                      >must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                      >wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                      >----- Original Message -----
                                      >From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                      >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                      >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                      >Curiously,
                                      > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                      >allows
                                      > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                      > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                      > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                      > >
                                      > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                                      >government.
                                      > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                      > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                      >a
                                      > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                      > > part, meets my needs.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                                      >the
                                      > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                      >publishing
                                      > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                      > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                      > >
                                      > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                      >common
                                      > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                      >true
                                      > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                                      >to
                                      > > obtain what they want.
                                      > >
                                      > > - C. S. Wyatt
                                      > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                      > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                      > >
                                      > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                      >I
                                      > > shall be.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > >
                                      >

                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                    • Edward Alf
                                      Chris et Folks, i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Chris et Folks,

                                        i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a
                                        while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...

                                        selfishness is one of those words which has taken a beating in the public
                                        mind ... all action is selfish if we want a result ... even an action which
                                        we would want to be taken as unselfish is in a sense selfish ... it is good
                                        to be selfish ...

                                        eduard

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                                        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:24 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                        > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                        Curiously,
                                        > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                        allows
                                        > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                        > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                        > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                        >
                                        > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                        > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                        > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                                        > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                        > part, meets my needs.
                                        >
                                        > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                        > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                                        > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                        > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                        >
                                        > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                        common
                                        > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                                        > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                        > obtain what they want.
                                        >
                                        > - C. S. Wyatt
                                        > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                        > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                        >
                                        > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                                        > shall be.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Edward Alf
                                        mi you and all, it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          mi you and all,

                                          it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a
                                          desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                                          ordinary and very human (i could extend it to non-human as well) quest ...
                                          why get into psychological egotists (whatever that is)? ...

                                          however if you wish to get into it ... one could argue that the person who
                                          abuses and tortures their body is seeking after something which is their own
                                          definition of pleasure ... and they in doing so, they are also seeking
                                          happiness by their definition ... whatever rock your boat ...

                                          eduard

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "mi yoo" <mihwa12@...>
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:07 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                          > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                                          > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body
                                          and
                                          > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                                          > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                          > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
                                          > >
                                          > >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                          Curiously,
                                          > >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                          allows
                                          > >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                          > >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                          > >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                          > >
                                          > >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                          > >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                          > >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                          a
                                          > >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                          > >part, meets my needs.
                                          > >
                                          > >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                          > >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                          publishing
                                          > >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                          > >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                          > >
                                          > >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                          > >common
                                          > >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                          true
                                          > >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                          > >obtain what they want.
                                          > >
                                          > >- C. S. Wyatt
                                          > >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                          > >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                          > >
                                          > >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                          I
                                          > >shall be.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > _________________________________________________________________
                                          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Edward Alf
                                          Bill et folks, i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of happiness was unknown until stated by an american president .... eduard ...
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 8, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Bill et folks,

                                            i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of
                                            happiness was unknown until stated by an american president ....

                                            eduard


                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:36 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature


                                            > Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                            > and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                            > ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                            > ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                            > benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                            > construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                            > problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                            > work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                            > must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                            > wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                            > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                            > Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                            > Curiously,
                                            > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                            > allows
                                            > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                            > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                            > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                            > >
                                            > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                                            government.
                                            > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                            > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                            a
                                            > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                            > > part, meets my needs.
                                            > >
                                            > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                                            the
                                            > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                            publishing
                                            > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                            > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                            > >
                                            > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                            > common
                                            > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                            true
                                            > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                                            to
                                            > > obtain what they want.
                                            > >
                                            > > - C. S. Wyatt
                                            > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                            > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                            > >
                                            > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                            I
                                            > > shall be.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.