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Janus Head

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  • bdeanrob@sgi.net
    Dear Eduard, I m happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent existential/phenomenological
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 2 2:53 PM
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      Dear Eduard,

      I'm happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not
      know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent
      existential/phenomenological psychologists of the 20th century.
      In the 1960's, his book *The Divided Self* sold millions of
      copies, and his reportoire of work, including titles such as
      *Self and Others* and *The Politics of Experience*, was directly
      influenced by existential thinkers such as Heidegger, Sartre, and
      Buber, as well as critical theory.

      The guest editor, Daniel Burston, has written two books on Laing,
      and the contributors to the volume largely consists of authors
      who knew and worked with Laing during his lifetime.

      In short, I would think that many of you on this list would enjoy
      reading this special issue of Janus Head.

      Best wishes,
      Brent

      > Message: 1

      > Brent,
      >
      > could you please provide a few point as to why this Jason Head information
      > should be of interest to us in this existentialism group ...
      >
      > thankyou
      >
      > eduard
    • Edward Alf
      Brent, thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with more interest and perhaps i will find his book .... eduard ... From:
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 2 7:21 PM
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        Brent,

        thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with more
        interest and perhaps i will find his book ....

        eduard

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <bdeanrob@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:53 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Janus Head


        > Dear Eduard,
        >
        > I'm happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not
        > know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent
        > existential/phenomenological psychologists of the 20th century.
        > In the 1960's, his book *The Divided Self* sold millions of
        > copies, and his reportoire of work, including titles such as
        > *Self and Others* and *The Politics of Experience*, was directly
        > influenced by existential thinkers such as Heidegger, Sartre, and
        > Buber, as well as critical theory.
        >
        > The guest editor, Daniel Burston, has written two books on Laing,
        > and the contributors to the volume largely consists of authors
        > who knew and worked with Laing during his lifetime.
        >
        > In short, I would think that many of you on this list would enjoy
        > reading this special issue of Janus Head.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Brent
      • Lusa the Great
        unsubscribe yeah? tanks! ... ===== Miss-ouri lent Mississi-ippi her New Jersey. What did Dela-ware...? Da-kota!
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 3 3:01 AM
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          unsubscribe yeah? tanks!
          --- Edward Alf <ealf@...> wrote:
          > Brent,
          >
          > thankyou for that note ... i will go to your recommended sites with
          > more
          > interest and perhaps i will find his book ....
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: <bdeanrob@...>
          > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:53 PM
          > Subject: [existlist] Janus Head
          >
          >
          > > Dear Eduard,
          > >
          > > I'm happy to address your question. As some of you may or may not
          > > know, Ronnie Laing was one of the most prominent
          > > existential/phenomenological psychologists of the 20th century.
          > > In the 1960's, his book *The Divided Self* sold millions of
          > > copies, and his reportoire of work, including titles such as
          > > *Self and Others* and *The Politics of Experience*, was directly
          > > influenced by existential thinkers such as Heidegger, Sartre, and
          > > Buber, as well as critical theory.
          > >
          > > The guest editor, Daniel Burston, has written two books on Laing,
          > > and the contributors to the volume largely consists of authors
          > > who knew and worked with Laing during his lifetime.
          > >
          > > In short, I would think that many of you on this list would enjoy
          > > reading this special issue of Janus Head.
          > >
          > > Best wishes,
          > > Brent
          >
          >
          >
          >


          =====

          Miss-ouri lent Mississi-ippi her New Jersey. What did
          Dela-ware...? Da-kota!



          __________________________________________________
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        • ennui
          Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I *despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of Pleaz unscrub me, I m un complate
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 3 10:38 AM
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            Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I
            *despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of "Pleaz
            unscrub me, I'm un complate moron" messages.

            So Moderator, if you're out there, please do this person a favour.
            Else Lusa, you might want to follow the instructions available at
            the bottom of every message you receive:

            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >

            To all else; thankyou for your continuing good-humoured and
            fascinating conversation, which lands in my inbox each day.

            ennui [readabookortalk-to-amouse]
          • Linda Jordan
            Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does anyone out there believe in the existence of human nature? ...
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 3 10:54 AM
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              Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does anyone
              out there believe in the existence of human nature?

              >From: "ennui" <ennui@...>
              >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
              >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 01:38:24 +0800
              >
              >Hi all, I am a lurker in the most extreme sense of the term. Yet I
              >*despise* when a list becomes bogged down in a wash of "Pleaz
              >unscrub me, I'm un complate moron" messages.
              >
              >So Moderator, if you're out there, please do this person a favour.
              >Else Lusa, you might want to follow the instructions available at
              >the bottom of every message you receive:
              >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              >
              >To all else; thankyou for your continuing good-humoured and
              >fascinating conversation, which lands in my inbox each day.
              >
              >ennui [readabookortalk-to-amouse]

              _________________________________________________________________
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            • Edward Alf
              hi Linda, im not sure what your question is ... one could assume that human nature exists, since humans exist ... or perhaps you are asking if we are aware
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 3 2:25 PM
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                hi Linda,

                im not sure what your question is ... one could assume that human nature
                exists, since humans exist ... or perhaps you are asking if we are aware
                what human nature is ...

                eduard

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 1:54 PM
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying


                >
                > Right on, ennui. Appreciate someone finally saying something. Does
                anyone
                > out there believe in the existence of human nature?
                >
              • C. S. Wyatt
                Lusa should now be gone... I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 3 7:54 PM
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                  Lusa should now be gone...

                  I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility
                  seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store owner, I'm amazed
                  by people on a daily basis.

                  - C. S. Wyatt
                  http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                  http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                  I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                  shall be.
                • Linda Jordan
                  But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your closing thought,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 3 8:16 PM
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                    But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz
                    not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your closing
                    thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                    accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                    John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think "The
                    Collector" too.

                    Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                    existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                    ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and believe
                    in human nature.



                    >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                    >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                    >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:54:41 -0700
                    >
                    >Lusa should now be gone...
                    >
                    >I sometimes ponder why people need so much help. Personal responsibility
                    >seems to be a good topic for discussion. As a retail store owner, I'm
                    >amazed
                    >by people on a daily basis.
                    >
                    >- C. S. Wyatt
                    >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                    >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                    >
                    >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                    >shall be.
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                  • Edward Alf
                    Linda et al, i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 3 9:02 PM
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                      Linda et al,

                      i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need
                      help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal responsibility ..
                      . well that is the way im interpreting it ...

                      i think that one could have an inclination towards existentialism and still
                      believe in human nature ... if only for reason that humans have a nature and
                      one might as well believe that this is the case ... but human nature covers
                      a wealth of characteristics ... which ones are we speaking of in relation to
                      existentialism? ... there is a human characteristic which is a desire to
                      hope for the best ... but i should think that hope in this sense is
                      contradicted, since the concept of existentialism is that one makes one's
                      own world by particular choices ... of course i suppose that one can still
                      be stoic about making choices and yet have hopes ...

                      anyway, the difficulty is that existentialism can have a variety of criteria
                      within its philosophy and human nature has a wide range of characteristics
                      .. which ones fit or dont fit with which ... wow, look at me, it is almost
                      as if i knew what i was talking about ...

                      im now into Odinism ... time to go to sleep and think about this .. see if i
                      wake up with some solution to my spiritual quest ...

                      the ottawa river is still covered with ice ... it will take a few more weeks
                      ... im optimistic that i wont miss the breakup this year ... i should think
                      that one of these days the temperature will get above 10c ....

                      have fun ..

                      eduard

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:16 PM
                      Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying


                      > But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do. Cuz
                      > not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your
                      closing
                      > thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                      > accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                      > John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think
                      "The
                      > Collector" too.
                      >
                      > Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                      > existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                      > ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and believe
                      > in human nature.
                    • Linda Jordan
                      Human condition to hope for the best? I think not. One could consider the criminally insane. One could say that these folks hope for the best I suppose but
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 3 9:36 PM
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                        Human condition to hope for the best? I think not. One could consider the
                        criminally insane. One could say that these folks hope for the best I
                        suppose but what is their best--to have their crime go undetected? --to wish
                        for the shortest sentence? One could also consider those human beings who
                        are otherwise flawed--for instance, those who are afflicted with some kind
                        of mental retardation. Do they hope for the best? How do we know? How do
                        we judge people who by predisposition think differently than the rest? Not
                        sure about any of this. All questions, to me at least, worthy of thought.


                        >From: "Edward Alf" <ealf@...>
                        >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Subject: Re: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                        >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:02:17 -0400
                        >
                        >Linda et al,
                        >
                        >i dont think that Chris is saying that it is the nature of humans to need
                        >help ... but rather that he has noticed a lack of personal responsibility
                        >..
                        >. well that is the way im interpreting it ...
                        >
                        >i think that one could have an inclination towards existentialism and still
                        >believe in human nature ... if only for reason that humans have a nature
                        >and
                        >one might as well believe that this is the case ... but human nature covers
                        >a wealth of characteristics ... which ones are we speaking of in relation
                        >to
                        >existentialism? ... there is a human characteristic which is a desire to
                        >hope for the best ... but i should think that hope in this sense is
                        >contradicted, since the concept of existentialism is that one makes one's
                        >own world by particular choices ... of course i suppose that one can still
                        >be stoic about making choices and yet have hopes ...
                        >
                        >anyway, the difficulty is that existentialism can have a variety of
                        >criteria
                        >within its philosophy and human nature has a wide range of characteristics
                        >.. which ones fit or dont fit with which ... wow, look at me, it is almost
                        >as if i knew what i was talking about ...
                        >
                        >im now into Odinism ... time to go to sleep and think about this .. see if
                        >i
                        >wake up with some solution to my spiritual quest ...
                        >
                        >the ottawa river is still covered with ice ... it will take a few more
                        >weeks
                        >... im optimistic that i wont miss the breakup this year ... i should think
                        >that one of these days the temperature will get above 10c ....
                        >
                        >have fun ..
                        >
                        >eduard
                        >
                        >----- Original Message -----
                        >From: "Linda Jordan" <tustna@...>
                        >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:16 PM
                        >Subject: RE: [existlist] Lusa the Increasingly Annoying
                        >
                        >
                        > > But do you think that is human nature? To need help? Not sure I do.
                        >Cuz
                        > > not everyone needs help or at least some profess not to. Like your
                        >closing
                        > > thought, C. S. Wyatt. Rather similar to the following: No doubt our
                        > > accepting what we are must always inhibit our being what we ought to be.
                        > > John Fowles said that, you know "The Magus" and "The Maggot." I think
                        >"The
                        > > Collector" too.
                        > >
                        > > Asked the question whether anyone believes in human nature because some
                        > > existentialists say that (I say some because I am not familiar with them
                        > > ALL). Just wondering if one can be of existentialist leanings and
                        >believe
                        > > in human nature.
                        >
                        >
                        >

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                      • C. S. Wyatt
                        I believe people naturally seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously, some people are wired through nature or nurture (though free will allows us to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 4 10:24 PM
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                          I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
                          some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
                          us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                          self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                          nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.

                          In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                          These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                          dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                          society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                          part, meets my needs.

                          I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                          lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                          consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                          promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.

                          On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too common
                          in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                          pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                          obtain what they want.

                          - C. S. Wyatt
                          http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                          http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                          I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                          shall be.
                        • mi yoo
                          Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and mind? Do
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 5 12:07 AM
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                            Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                            think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body and
                            mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?


                            >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                            >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                            >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
                            >
                            >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving. Curiously,
                            >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will allows
                            >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                            >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                            >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                            >
                            >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                            >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                            >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                            >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                            >part, meets my needs.
                            >
                            >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                            >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                            >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                            >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                            >
                            >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                            >common
                            >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                            >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                            >obtain what they want.
                            >
                            >- C. S. Wyatt
                            >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                            >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                            >
                            >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                            >shall be.
                            >
                            >

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                          • C. S. Wyatt
                            Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a previous
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 5 12:21 AM
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                              Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
                              to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
                              previous life taught.

                              Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
                              are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
                              them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
                              interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.

                              I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
                              state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
                              overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
                              very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think they
                              know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.

                              Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
                              impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!


                              - C. S. Wyatt
                              http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                              http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web

                              I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                              shall be.

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                              > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
                              > their body and
                              > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                            • Linda Jordan
                              Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are their own centers of existence. The first I don t entirely agree with. I would say
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 5 4:48 AM
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                                Two statements you made: We only see ourselves in mirrors. AND people are
                                their own centers of existence.

                                The first I don't entirely agree with. I would say that younger people tend
                                to see themselves only in mirrors. Expect some rambling... As I have gotten
                                older, I have become far more self-reliant and self-aware, thereby
                                permitting me to no longer rely on "mirrors" (others) quite as much.
                                Mirrors are useful though. However, they reflect only those things we
                                choose to see in them. I have lost a lot of weight recently. I am the same
                                person. I am now getting more attention due to the weight loss, from both
                                men and women. Therefore, syllogism-wise, the attention I am getting
                                currently results from this weight loss. (Of course, I'm probably more
                                self-confident as well, this perhaps causing more people to be drawn to me.)
                                Regardless, this kind of pisses me off. As would be expected.

                                This statement seems to apply to you particularly. You mention business
                                ownership, jeep, wanting others to know that you perhaps have money. You
                                mention many writers, philosophers, etc., wanting others to know you are
                                well-read and a thinker. These things are important to you. And you want
                                others to realize this. The mirroring desire here is very clear. Know what
                                I mean?

                                Next statement: People are the centers of their existences. People are the
                                centers of their existences, if they are honest/mature enough to admit it.
                                As you probably have come to realize, this self-existence centeredness does
                                not have to be self-centeredness in the usual sense of the word. A positive
                                self-centeredness is possible and desirable.

                                Your two statements are almost contradictory. Almost. Needing validation
                                from the world is very useful at times of course. However, if we are truly
                                centered in ourselves, we wouldn't need that validation. There must be some
                                balance, I believe. If, in our self-reliance, we find support for our
                                beliefs, values, etc., then our self-concept is reinforced and therefore
                                stronger.

                                Hell, I don't know. These thoughts are wonderful. I am currently
                                unemployed. I am reading/writing a lot more these days. My life
                                objectively is pretty lousy. But having these kinds of ideas to think about
                                is wonderful and somehow sustains me.

                                >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                                >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 00:21:15 -0700
                                >
                                >Yes, I suppose I am stating that people are egotists. It has been said that
                                >to understand what a man is, watch a child. I see many children, and in a
                                >previous life taught.
                                >
                                >Children are extremely selfish... and not only the human ones. I think men
                                >are also selfish, and self-centered. Many assume the world revolves around
                                >them. It's difficult not to think that way when life appears to be an
                                >interactive movie in front of you. We can only see ourselves in mirrors.
                                >
                                >I decide who and what I will be, but to do so I must realize my "natural"
                                >state and overcome it. We each have weaknesses we choose to overcome,
                                >overlook, or integrate into our being. I know that I know and understand
                                >very little about myself and others. However, many people seem to think
                                >they
                                >know quite a bit. People are the their own "centers" of existence.
                                >
                                >Then again, I'm certain I drive my Jeep with a cloaking device, making it
                                >impossible for poeple with cell phones to see my vehicle in front of them!
                                >
                                >
                                >- C. S. Wyatt
                                >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                >
                                >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                                >shall be.
                                >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you
                                >really
                                > > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing
                                > > their body and
                                > > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                                >

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                              • thebookdoc@aol.com
                                As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 5 7:04 AM
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                                  <<...and in a previous life taught.>>

                                  As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
                                  stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
                                  perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
                                  beside what you fictionalize as memory.

                                  I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
                                  am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
                                  'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
                                  reality -- and past even less so.

                                  Richard
                                • Linda Jordan
                                  I don t think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer? ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 5 8:23 AM
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                                    I don't think he was referring to having been reincarnated. I think that
                                    earlier in THIS life he was a teacher. Am I right, original writer?


                                    >From: thebookdoc@...
                                    >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: [existlist] Re: Human Nature, the creation of foibles, and passing
                                    >by dilusions as if gases
                                    >Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:04:52 -0000
                                    >
                                    ><<...and in a previous life taught.>>
                                    >
                                    >As I am a bit of a skeptic, and though I like to try not to skoff (as
                                    >stupid as I am), I am curious as to if this was a genuine
                                    >perspective, and was wondering how there is any proof of this, if so,
                                    >beside what you fictionalize as memory.
                                    >
                                    >I have watched people's memories grow before my eyes and wonder if I
                                    >am as champion at altering my perspective and vision of my
                                    >'character.' I assume I am, which leaves frail possibility of current
                                    >reality -- and past even less so.
                                    >
                                    >Richard
                                    >

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                                  • Bill Harris
                                    Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept ,carried in so
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 5 10:36 AM
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                                      Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                      and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                      ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                      ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                      benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                      construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                      problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                      work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                      must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                      wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                      > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                      Curiously,
                                      > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                      allows
                                      > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                      > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                      > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                      >
                                      > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                      > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                      > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                                      > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                      > part, meets my needs.
                                      >
                                      > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                      > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                                      > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                      > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                      >
                                      > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                      common
                                      > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                                      > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                      > obtain what they want.
                                      >
                                      > - C. S. Wyatt
                                      > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                      > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                      >
                                      > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                                      > shall be.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                    • Linda Jordan
                                      RIGHT ON, BILL! ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 5 1:02 PM
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                                        RIGHT ON, BILL!


                                        >From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                                        >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        >Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature
                                        >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:36:16 -0500
                                        >
                                        >Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                        >and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                        >,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                        >,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                        >benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                        >construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                        >problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                        >work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                        >must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                        >wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                        >----- Original Message -----
                                        >From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                        >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                        >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                        >Curiously,
                                        > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                        >allows
                                        > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                        > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                        > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                        > >
                                        > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                                        >government.
                                        > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                        > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                        >a
                                        > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                        > > part, meets my needs.
                                        > >
                                        > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                                        >the
                                        > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                        >publishing
                                        > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                        > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                        > >
                                        > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                        >common
                                        > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                        >true
                                        > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                                        >to
                                        > > obtain what they want.
                                        > >
                                        > > - C. S. Wyatt
                                        > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                        > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                        > >
                                        > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                        >I
                                        > > shall be.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        >

                                        _________________________________________________________________
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                                      • Edward Alf
                                        Chris et Folks, i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 8 4:59 PM
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                                          Chris et Folks,

                                          i have been out of circulation for the past few days ... it will take a
                                          while to get through all the messages ... i can only answer some ...

                                          selfishness is one of those words which has taken a beating in the public
                                          mind ... all action is selfish if we want a result ... even an action which
                                          we would want to be taken as unselfish is in a sense selfish ... it is good
                                          to be selfish ...

                                          eduard

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:24 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                          > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                          Curiously,
                                          > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                          allows
                                          > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                          > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                          > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                          >
                                          > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                          > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                          > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in a
                                          > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                          > part, meets my needs.
                                          >
                                          > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                          > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a publishing
                                          > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                          > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                          >
                                          > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                          common
                                          > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A true
                                          > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                          > obtain what they want.
                                          >
                                          > - C. S. Wyatt
                                          > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                          > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                          >
                                          > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that I
                                          > shall be.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Edward Alf
                                          mi you and all, it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 8 5:06 PM
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                                            mi you and all,

                                            it is easy to find some extreme ... i think the point is that there is a
                                            desire for pleasure ... and pleasure can mean happiness ... this is an
                                            ordinary and very human (i could extend it to non-human as well) quest ...
                                            why get into psychological egotists (whatever that is)? ...

                                            however if you wish to get into it ... one could argue that the person who
                                            abuses and tortures their body is seeking after something which is their own
                                            definition of pleasure ... and they in doing so, they are also seeking
                                            happiness by their definition ... whatever rock your boat ...

                                            eduard

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "mi yoo" <mihwa12@...>
                                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:07 AM
                                            Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature


                                            > Are you saying people are naturally psychological egotists? Do you really
                                            > think some people derive pleasure from abusing and torturing their body
                                            and
                                            > mind? Do you equate pleasure with happiness?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >From: "C. S. Wyatt" <cswyatt@...>
                                            > >Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > >Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                            > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:24:25 -0700
                                            > >
                                            > >I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                            Curiously,
                                            > >some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                            allows
                                            > >us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                            > >self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                            > >nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                            > >
                                            > >In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable government.
                                            > >These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                            > >dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                            a
                                            > >society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                            > >part, meets my needs.
                                            > >
                                            > >I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along the
                                            > >lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                            publishing
                                            > >consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                            > >promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                            > >
                                            > >On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                            > >common
                                            > >in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                            true
                                            > >pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work -- to
                                            > >obtain what they want.
                                            > >
                                            > >- C. S. Wyatt
                                            > >http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                            > >http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                            > >
                                            > >I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                            I
                                            > >shall be.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > _________________________________________________________________
                                            > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Edward Alf
                                            Bill et folks, i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of happiness was unknown until stated by an american president .... eduard ...
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 8 5:22 PM
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                                              Bill et folks,

                                              i should hardly think that the concept of liberty and the pursuit of
                                              happiness was unknown until stated by an american president ....

                                              eduard


                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@...>
                                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:36 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Human Nature


                                              > Americas philosopher, president postulated we have a right to life liberty
                                              > and the persuit of hapiness. What a complex and revolutinary concept
                                              > ,carried in so few words. The biologic imperative demands that we are born
                                              > ,we reproduce, we die. The individual contracts with society for mutual
                                              > benefit. The government acts as arbitrer of this contract through the
                                              > construct of law. Assigning a value to various labors has been an ongoing
                                              > problem. The emergence of lazy parasitic social classes has destroied the
                                              > work ethic in countless societies , tribes and clans. Perhaps philosophy
                                              > must shoulder the responsibility of providing a framework of values from
                                              > wich the labors of the individual will be compensated by society.
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: C. S. Wyatt <cswyatt@...>
                                              > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:24 AM
                                              > Subject: RE: [existlist] Human Nature
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > I believe people "naturally" seek pleasure and are self-serving.
                                              > Curiously,
                                              > > some people are "wired" through nature or nurture (though free will
                                              > allows
                                              > > us to change) to enjoy pain and/or destruction. Even saints are
                                              > > self-serving, Augustine argued. There is the hope of eternal life -- and
                                              > > nothing is more self-serving than eternal life.
                                              > >
                                              > > In my worldview, I want a well-educated populous and a stable
                                              government.
                                              > > These are self-serving because I cannot perform certain tasks, such as
                                              > > dental work or internal medicine. I compromise some freedoms to exist in
                                              a
                                              > > society -- a choice I make actively each day. This society, for the most
                                              > > part, meets my needs.
                                              > >
                                              > > I am selfish and pleasure-seeking. However, my "selfishness" is along
                                              the
                                              > > lines of Adam Smith. (I own two businesses -- a bookstore and a
                                              publishing
                                              > > consultancy.) For Sartre, selfishness meant embracing socialism with its
                                              > > promise of meeting essential needs. We know how he sought pleasure.
                                              > >
                                              > > On the personal responsibility issue -- I believe laziness is all too
                                              > common
                                              > > in society. People aren't willing to work to obtain what they want. A
                                              true
                                              > > pleasure seeker is willing to overcome minor obstacles -- like work --
                                              to
                                              > > obtain what they want.
                                              > >
                                              > > - C. S. Wyatt
                                              > > http://www.tameri.com A site for writers
                                              > > http://www.tameri.com/csw My home on the web
                                              > >
                                              > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all that
                                              I
                                              > > shall be.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
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