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9649RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

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  • james tan
    Oct 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      eduard,

      thanks for sharing ur views.

      james.


      From: eduard <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason
      Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:48:45 -0400

      james,

      I find it amazing that we are still speaking of
      Hitler as the "killer". Not "a" killer, but "the"
      killer". The holocaust was not the product of one
      man, but of a society that sought to eliminate
      what was seen as an alien element in their midst.
      Hitler [and I am not being apologetic about him]
      was a catalyst or perhaps a focal point for action
      that was acceptable to the German society. What
      Hitler did was to say that it was Ok to kill the
      Jews. There is always some propensity to take
      violent action within a society, but normally the
      leadership tries to maintain a higher course.
      Sort of, to keep a lid on things. Hitler not only
      took the lid off, but threw it away.

      I think that an individual killer works in the
      same way. All of us have a bit of a dark side,
      and would take some direct action if given the
      opportunity and social approval. I am not
      suggesting that we are all killers at the bottom.
      I would love to express some harsh words at the
      clerk who just throws my change at me ... but I
      don't do it because of the scene it might make.
      It takes a special type of person to kill and that
      is due to a lot of other factors.

      In a crowd of people [e.g. a riot] there is a
      perception of approval or at least an absence of
      immediate disapproval. In such a situation that
      special person will kill.

      I think the same thing happens even when an
      individual is not part of a crowd. A killer tends
      to be a loner, in the sense that he/she reduces
      his/her society to only a few individuals ...
      which obviously includes the victim. In such a
      reduced society, it is easy for the individual to
      come to the conclusion that there is an approval.
      In fact, the only one who might be seen a voicing
      an objection is the victim, but since the victim
      is the target, their objection can be discounted.
      It is only when the killer is arrested that they
      are made aware that there is a larger society that
      disapproves.

      As to the WTC incident, I can see those that took
      over the aircraft as being able to isolate
      themselves from the world around them and the
      passengers in the aircraft. They most certainly
      had been primed to think of those others as
      somehow alien to their own perspective. Within
      their own reduced society fostered by Osama ben
      Ladin they have both opportunity and approval.

      Which a long way around to say that I agree with
      you ... that people don't kill out of fear. It is
      done in a clear and rational manner.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:20 AM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Choosing and Reason

      u said:
      "Killers are always misguided because they are
      always proceeding from
      the motive of fear. "

      gee, maybe i am reading u out of context; but what
      u said about fear being
      the one and only reason for killer to kill
      is...just not true. while some
      may kill out of fear, there are others who kill
      because it serves their
      agenda, and can do so without any fear or losing
      nerve. killing can be just
      expedient, if it is well planned - just like a
      chess move where one has to
      'kill'. killers are not always misguided.

      james.

      From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choosing and Reason
      Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:06:10 +0100

      At 12:48 pm +0000 26/9/02, swmaerske wrote:
      >Sometimes the killer may just be sadistic or
      crazy or both.
      >Sometimes, too, the killer may be misguided,
      e.g., Hitler's view that
      >the Jews represented an organic threat to the
      purity of the "Aryan
      >race", culture and civilization.

      Killers are always misguided because they are
      always proceeding from
      the motive of fear. While it is perfectly easy to
      understand people
      who act from the motive of fear - and we have all
      no doubt had first
      hand experience of this - it is never necessary.

      This is the most unfortunate consequence of an
      ethical system that
      places the survival of the individual uppermost.

      Tommy




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