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59445Re: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?

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  • Bhanu Padmo
    Feb 24, 2013


      Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human Rights)


      us start with the contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese march towards
      the strongest economy.


      economy* without the underlying commensurate *general morality* proves, sooner
      or later, to be brute. *General morality* needs to be transformed into *national
      morality* through a consistent *polity*. *Political morality* is the matter of
      profound reasoning and is materialized through an appropriate *political model*.


      primal question that a *political model* answers (and implements such an answer)
      is that about the true nature of *national sovereignty* and the formal method
      of creating/ assembling it. The *national constitution* ought to incorporate
      the answer (statement about nature of national sovereignty) and the model.


      generic name of this model is *democracy*. The actual nature of identified
      national sovereignty is the index of the *native democracy*.


      the analysis of consequences of *national economy* ought to take into
      consideration respective *political economy* that delineates the nature of
      identified national sovereignty, the nature of constitution with respect to
      incorporation of national sovereignty, the nature of political model thereof and
      the nature of political control over national economy.


      it China or US, the international impact of respective national economy will
      finally be the function of locally conceived and implemented general morality,
      polity, reasonability of political model, nature of national sovereignty and
      the methodology of assembling national sovereignty. The nodal point in this
      sequence is the nature of identified national sovereignty.


      that both these nations are not going to change much in near future, we may
      pull out our gamma counter to measure the strength of respective radiations in
      terms of rectitude (democratic values) of respective identified national
      sovereignty. The gamma counter (a contrivance for measuring number of gamma
      rays emanating out of a neighboring radioactive substance) is a metaphor for
      analysis (analytic power) of a nation*s physical international effects.


      it very difficult to assess democratic values of a nation from its
      international physical relationships?


      is not so difficult if we can appreciate *crime/ immorality/ cruelty statistics*
      as the *cardinal/ absolute index of organized status (community, nation,
      religion etc)*.


      measuring democratic values of a national model, we have to resolve its aura
      into two components viz. *sub-frontier aura* (intra-national effect) and *trans-frontier
      aura* (international effect). Accordingly, our survey of crime/ immorality/
      cruelty would also have two components : *sub-frontier survey of national
      offenses* and *trans-frontier survey of national offences*.


      offenses* has two sub-divisions : *public offenses* and *administrative


      is here seen as a form of catalytic cruelty that would deter multi-fold conflagration
      of cruelty in variant forms. Public offense as malevolent cruelty is a *positive
      offense*. Administrative punishment as benevolent cruelty is a *negative
      offense*. To be on the safer side, both *public positive offense* and *administrative
      negative offense* may be seen as human rights violations, real or virtual.


      we are now reminded of the notions of *public negative offense* (public
      benevolent cruelty) and *administrative positive offense* (administrative malevolent
      cruelty) as well.


      pass over the difficulty of discerning negative offense from positive offense in
      both public and administrative domains, we may think of *integral sub-frontier
      cruelty statistics*. *Integral sub-frontier cruelty* will thus be the sum of
      the contents of all four sections viz. positive and negative offenses of both
      public and administrative domains.


      sub-frontier cruelty statistics may be taken at least as the gross *index of (working
      of) democratic values* within the frontiers of the nation. To be on the safer
      side, let this statistics depict the *integral human rights violation* of the


      you like to assess American and Chinese records of *integral sub-frontier
      cruelty* or *integral sub-frontier human rights violation*?


      we appreciate the fact that China has managed to lower the level of public
      crime/ offense almost to the ground, leaving not much option before us to be influenced
      by rumors (arising out of intentional diplomatic vitiations of isolated/
      selected cases)?


      to the other division of crime survey : statistics of trans-frontier crime/
      immorality/ cruelty. xxx


      of induced wars and imposed international policies originating from American
      premises need to be inspected and assessed thoroughly to come to the unexpected
      final count. Obvious answers to few discreet questions do outline the
      trans-frontier American image. Is America bothered about even simple survival
      of third-world countries if they don*t opt to be subjugated by her most
      abjectly? Does America appreciate unconditional benevolence? Does America
      tolerate other*s sense of independence and contentment?


      have we to seem so mean and make such utterances against America when American *general
      morality* is so high? Undeniable is the radical and creative outlook of
      Americans. Unparalleled is their intellectual contribution to mankind. Insuperability
      of their wisdom has been quite appropriately translated into insuperability of
      their physical might. Why have we to seem so mean and make such utterances
      against America then?


      answer to this queer question is connoted by these counter questions : Why has
      then the issue of China cropped up so obtrusively? Why did the concern of relative
      deceleration of US/ West (with respect to unstoppably accelerating China)
      become so imminent so soon? How could a fallen and ailing China come round to
      emulate US/ West in just six decades of time?


      these connote the tipping point abut descent and ascent of nations. We have
      indicated earlier at the very beginning of this discussion the incidence of
      this tipping point in the nature of identified national sovereignty and the
      commensurate political model and the ensuing degree of native democracy. That
      is it.


      great *general morality-creativity* of US/ West would have to be transformed
      into respective *national-political morality-creativity* through a consistent *polity*
      equipped with an appropriate *political model*. Without a womb, the body would
      have to be infertile. American general morality lacks the womb to generate
      great (benign) global consequences. What is being projected currently as
      American/ Western global impact may not be as great, as benign.

      womb is the commensurate *political model* that would uphold great democratic
      values through better appreciation of national sovereignty. What is being
      projected currently as American/ Western democratic values may not be as great.


      everything boils down to the definition of national sovereignty. This
      definition could generate the absolute/ ideal polity, the absolute/ ideal


      political system lacks the requisite concern about that definition and model.
      That is how American *national-political morality* stands contrary to American *general
      morality*. That is how American image is so ambiguous, so anomalous. That is
      how American government and American people are two separate/ different/
      incommensurable entities. America seem to be suffering from an excruciating *political


      not solved in time, this political dualism will make extant American glory
      fade. It will become a burden to itself and to the world. It will bring about the
      great decline of the West. We are talking about the millenary events.


      decline is to be understood in dynamic/ relative view. The relative decline
      with respect to China is the context. There are already indications of
      irreversible relative deceleration of America/ West or irreversible relative
      acceleration of China.


      *theory of universal national sovereignty and absolute polity* would apply to
      all countries, big or small, old or new, US or China or India, alike. The
      relative progression of China and the relative recession of US could be
      explained by the same theory. If US is losing its hold on own prospects by way
      of being a mere bystander to own worsening political dualism, then China would
      have to be deemed to be tightening its hold on own prospects by way of solving
      own political dualism discreetly and progressively.


      we take *political model* and the ensuing *national-political morality-creativity*
      as the cause and the *general morality-creativity* as the consequence, the
      present scenario for US and China may be delineated as follows : US may be
      deemed to have currently a higher general morality-creativity and lesser
      national-political morality-creativity when China may be deemed to have currently
      a lower general morality-creativity and higher national-political morality-creativity.
      Since, national-political morality-creativity is *causal* with respect to
      shaping of general morality-creativity, edging of China may be ascribed to the
      higher degree of the causal agency (higher political morality) it has managed
      to procure and wield.


      the *political morality* of a country isn*t easy. A better cultural legacy or a
      persuasive propaganda may cause the current political morality seem higher. US
      enjoys such a position and has managed to be popular as a high democracy. This
      assumption has made US political system seem colorful and benign. To know
      whether it is truly so, we shall have to put her to the critical test. The critical
      test is the nature of her conviction about *national sovereignty*.


      the plenary body of best US citizens universally and eternally empowered by the
      US Constitution to integratedly rule that country at every level by way of
      nationalizing an evolving wisdom and jurisprudence (to be internationalized by
      global consensus later)? Has US contemplated over such a possibility? Has US
      taken even the first step towards organizing own citizens on the basis of dream
      and emotion into a country-wide and plenary civil hierarchy?


      China contemplated over such a possibility in own case and acted upon such


      or malignancy of a powerful national economy will be the function of the degree
      of conformity to this seminal political/ constitutional morality. Baseless
      apprehension about Sino-American relativism doesn*t matter. Primacy of
      definition of national sovereignty and the ensuing theory of absolute polity is
      the guiding light.


      of march to power will be accompanied by steep moral ascension. We need not be
      afraid of the reasonable future.

      (Bhanu Padmo)


      may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well

      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.

      --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

      From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com, TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com, existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34 PM




      Thanks much for your comments about
      Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on them.  Meanwhile, I have
      a few immediate questions below, and a Kishorean quote...

      <<< The East-to-West flight of
      global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future. Kishore*s
      words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has to see further is
      that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural polarity would be
      consummated in China. And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
      exclusively to China.
      PL >  Qs:
      "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for
      this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China"? 

      In his talk Kishore conveyed his
      perception that China will probably become the most powerful economy
      within approx the next decade.  He also stated, as he also does in his
      Feb 2013 book (The Great Convergence), that China will eventually become more democratic.  At his
      Cornell talk, Kishore said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
      of shifting towards
      democracy too quickly;--- that economic
      depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He believes that there is
      currently a very gradual transition towards democracy underway in China.  
      He gave the example of travel by Chinese citizens out and
      then back into China, for multi-year
      durations, as a example of this transition. 

      Do you agree with any of
      I realize that those of us who personally
      know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China challenging; 
      including the challenge of having any faith that Chinese political evoluton
      could be positive re: human rights;  That said, here is a quote from
      Nevertheless, a more democratic China will
      emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not in
      doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once China has
      developed the largest middle class in the world.  The only question is
      whether America or any other power will ...
      interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to interfere is
      strong in America. 
      A wiser course is to
      allow China to
      develop at its own pace.  By not
      crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical stability.

      K-Mahbubani, p.157.
      Any thoughts?
      BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part of the
      futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this stretch of
      evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is
      India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom
      of the ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet.
      PL > Qs
      What is
      the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you say more about what you
      mean by the 2nd Titanic (India) "will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet"?
      I think I know
      what you mean, but not sure....
      In general, what
      do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful economy,
      will be
      Gratitude, Bhanu.
      Pat  : )
      May our efforts benefit

      all beings and the earth

      ----- Original Message -----
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ;
      greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
      Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore
      Mahbubani ?


      My Dear Pat, Namaste.
      (The Story of Second Titanic)
      I am reminded of a joke
      when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s recognition of western worth in
      such terms as *Seven Pillars of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market
      economics, Science and Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of
      Peace, Rule of Law, Education).
      The joke is this. You
      (a woman) meet somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a
      liking for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
      details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen to
      attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have already
      assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential friend was an
      artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker and so on! However, she
      would like to whisper the last point about her into your ear, feeling a
      bit coy over the fact that you wouldn*t probably like the last
      characteristic. And she finally tells you that she is in the grip of the
      habit of lying!!
      Naturally, you would
      now be ashamed of your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
      retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported positive
      features. The last personal feature whispered into your ears is indeed
      the *absolute retrograde*.
      Similarly, what if one
      or more Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
      socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
      If you take a close
      look at these seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
      composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary one. These
      composites could be riddled with deficiency and redundancy.
      For example, free
      market economics can not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to
      implicitly acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
      superfluity of choices about the most redundant material requirement -
      at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is being deemed to cradle
      the peak evolution of universe).
      Science and technology
      isn*t a lay option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
      prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
      An inadequately
      conceived meritocracy runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish
      vagary of education.
      Pragmatism contaminated
      with conceit could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual
      cannibalism at some stage.
      Rule of law could turn
      into a piece of deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral
      part of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
      nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
      Culture of peace could
      be a redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any objective
      higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
      These seven composite
      agents of civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
      components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be isolated
      and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The identities of individual
      agents need to be expressed as permutation-combination of their elements
      and any agent with in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
      How many of these
      purported pillars of western wisdom will survive this ingenious
      intellectual operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
      semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore needs to
      brace up to clear own vision. Because this intellectual exercise will
      also clarify if Kishore-perceived American-Western wisdom and image is
      indeed positive or is mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed
      dignity and brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
      perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate and
      lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern Hemisphere viz.
      China and India. He appears to have reckoned both equal with respect to
      respective march to modernity, weltanschauug (worldview), actual
      self-worth, implementation of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the
      West and multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
      ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
      How can he be expected
      to be even marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
      and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/ culture/
      civilization? The easiest and the best one probably is the index of
      crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on crime/ immorality scale? Has
      he ever witnessed/ imagined the ghastliness of the actual Indian social
      scenario? Or, has he again made the mistake of seeing through the warped
      American eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
      country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/ selected
      politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human right violation*
      underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and justice?
      Kishore commits the
      double-fault of overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the
      two chameleons. This makes his international perspective deficient.

      We do appreciate his
      surmises about the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and
      rise of Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
      surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is the story
      of the great triangle whose vertices represent centers of global
      civilization of past, present and future.
      The past had witnessed
      the greatest socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
      India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
      polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This flight of
      global center from East to West depicted the rise of the West and the
      decline of the East.
      The East-to-West flight
      of global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
      Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has
      to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural
      polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit for this historic
      phenomenon would go exclusively to China.
      That is not all. The
      saddest part of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior
      to this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t
      occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic,
      even as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
      coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

      How would India be so
      doomed? - That is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think
      the clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
      How would China be
      rewarded with such a global glory? - That is because she is the heir
      apparent to pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
      because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To realize
      this, you have to look into the transcendental theory of evolution that
      puts civilization as function of national genes and that puts national
      genes as function of metaphysical movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist
      metaphysics have been ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later
      in China.
      What is that actual
      tipping national characteristic that would give China an edge over US/
      West. It is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
      constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited econo-social
      security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away Western Democracy, the
      iceberg that India wishes to harvest a destination from.
      Is Chinese success
      really so succinct? - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad
      where it will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the Kishore
      Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with in-built
      retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the theory of absolute

      (Bhanu Padmo)

      You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well
      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
      for extended discussions.

      --- On Mon, 2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies
      <pld@...> wrote:

      Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l]
      Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:01 PM


      Hello Bhanu & Friends,
      Since you and others have some interest in
      political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if you are familiar with
      the writings of Kishore Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions
      of his ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
      Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from Singapore. 
      He was born of Indian parents in an
      impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs ago.
      I heard Kishore speak recently @ Cornell and
      found his ideas about the need for world collaboration interesting; I
      am currently reading 4 of his books.  In his view, the USA's
      tendency to stay stuck focusing on world
      leadership instead of supporting world organizations and other means
      of world collaboration is very problematic & unfortunate for the
      USA now, and going forward.
      Kishore's message at the outset of his
      Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in the West,
      including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries are enjoying much
      rapid successful economic/cultural development as a result of being
      influenced by " The 7 Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which
      includes free market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic; 
      In his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
      Many points of his Cornell talk are laid out in
      his most recent book published in Feb/13.  He discussed
      the 7 pillars in his 2008 book: The
      New Asian Hemisphere.
      Your thoughts?
      Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat Louise
                  May our
      efforts benefit

                 all beings and the

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