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59269Re: [greenlogic] Fw: Re: [Wisdom-l] RE: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul -hilarious -

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  • devindersingh gulati
    Feb 4, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      "When the word was spoken to me the image would appear vividly"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4kcsXiwNbo%c2%a0
      > BHANU: What else could be the translation of the English term *religion* in Sanskrit or that of the Sanskrit term *dharma* in English? What could be the translation of the English term *culture* in Sanskrit or that of the Sanskrit term *samskriti* in English? Isn*t the matter straight forward?

      No indeed:
      http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheBecoming/message/4173

      Gulati


      ________________________________
      From: Bhanu Padmo <greenbhanu@...>
      To: greenlogic@...
      Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 12:29 AM
      Subject: [greenlogic] Fw: Re: [Wisdom-l] RE: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul -hilarious -


       


      --- On Mon, 2/4/13, ankh <ankhaton@...> wrote:


      >From: ankh <ankhaton@...>
      >Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] RE: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul -hilarious -
      >To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      >Date: Monday, February 4, 2013, 2:23 PM
      >
      >

      >Instead of scripture  words
      >
      >the word 'LOVE' covers it all
      >
      >God constantly searching each cubic nanometre of his xillions² spheres
      >to collect the LOVE wherever he sees it
      >
      >All else is hilarious
      >
      >ankhaton
      >
      >--- On Mon, 2/4/13, Bhanu Padmo <greenbhanu@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>From: Bhanu Padmo <greenbhanu@...>
      >>Subject: [Wisdom-l] RE: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul
      >>To: "TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com" <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com>, "greenlogic@yahoogroups.com" <greenlogic@yahoogroups.com>, "TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com" <therampapath@yahoogroups.com>, "seerseeker@yahoogroups.com" <seerseeker@yahoogroups.com>, "Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com"
      <wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com>, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com
      >>Date: Monday, February 4, 2013, 5:11 AM
      >>
      >>
      >> 
      >>Dear
      Tilak,
      >> 
      >>Wishfulness,
      Wistfulness and Lazy Gossips about Dharma.  I understand your sentiments about religiosity. That is not very
      difficult to understand or achieve at our level. What is being pointed at is
      *terminology and semantics*. It is what it is. It may not be what it ought to
      be. We should refrain from imposing our wistfulness and have patience in
      implementing our wishfulness. Wistfulness is to be passed by because of its
      non-reasonability. And the reason of wish needn*t be implementable right away,
      without general preparedness.
      >> 
      >>What
      else could be the translation of the English term *religion* in Sanskrit or
      that of the Sanskrit term *dharma* in English? What could be the translation of
      the English term *culture* in Sanskrit or that of the Sanskrit term *samskriti*
      in English? Isn*t the matter straight forward?
      >> 
      >>What
      you have been trying to point at is the difference between religion (dharma)
      and culture (samskriti), as we are all wary of mistaking one for the other. A
      culture is a particular case of the generic/ theoretical religion (paaribhaashika
      dharma) and may be deemed to be a practical/ localized dharma (praakruta
      dharma).
      >> 
      >>This
      much matter isn*t so intricate that all of us (all wise people) would get entangled
      here inextricably! Just say *no* to lazy gossips.
      >> 
      >>Green Pyramid Analogy
      of Dharma.  Take this analogy (Green Pyramid Analogy)
      about religion (dharma) to understand first the *seed/ genes of religion* (dharmabeeja)
      and then its *logical/ deductive amplification* and its *temporal/ shapely magnification*
      thereafter.
      >> 
      >>A
      small green mango grows into a bigger one keeping the shape intact. This we
      shall refer here as temporal/ shapely magnification. Had the small green mango been
      a small green living pyramid, we would have witnessed temporal/ shapely
      magnification of the pyramid.
      >> 
      >>Assuming
      that the pyramid is contemporaneously a dynamic one in so far as its causal
      apex as the *seed of the pyramidal body* (deha-beeja) would progressively
      precipitate commensurably and progressively the lower layers resulting in what
      we have termed logical/ deductive amplification, the maiden small pyramid would
      also continually grow adding respective effect to original temporal/ shapely
      magnification as well.
      >> 
      >>These
      twin phenomena portrayed in this analogy are applicable to dharma (religion)
      which arrives amidst a community in the form of a code. The code is indeed a
      pyramid of laws that is initiated by its causal apex in the form of a philosophical/
      metaphysical and jurisprudential prelude. This philosophical/ metaphysical and
      jurisprudential signature isn*t really the integral philosophy/ metaphysics
      (darshana) and jurisprudence (nyaya-vijnaana) proper that would embody
      community*s respective *unified theory of creation and life*.
      >> 
      >>The
      apex of the code depicts the seed of religion (dharma-beeja) that would propel religion*s
      logical/ deductive amplification across contemporaneous themes and that would
      propel religion*s temporal/ shapely magnification across evolving/ insinuated
      themes down the ages.
      >> 
      >>This
      much matter isn*t so intricate that all of us (all wise people) would get entangled
      here inextricably! Just say *no* to lazy gossips.
      >>  
      >>Thanks. 
      >>
      >>
      >>(Bhanu Padmo)
      >>http://www.bhanupadmo.com
      >>You
      may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well
      >>or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.
      >>
      >>--- On Fri, 1/25/13, Tilak Shrestha <tilakbs@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>>From: Tilak Shrestha <tilakbs@...>
      >>>Subject: RE: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul [1 Attachment]
      >>>To: "TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com" <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com>, "greenlogic@yahoogroups.com" <greenlogic@yahoogroups.com>, "TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com" <therampapath@yahoogroups.com>, "seerseeker@yahoogroups.com" <seerseeker@yahoogroups.com>, "Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com" <wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com>
      >>>Date: Friday, January 25, 2013, 5:37 PM
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> 
      >>>Dear Bhanu Jee
      >>>Namaste
      >>>No, 'Dharma' is not 'Religion.' They are apples and oranges. Matter of fact, we must make the distinction even more pronounced to make any dialogue clear. Religions are about social control, to make individuals into soldiers. There theme is: "Only my religion is true and direction to heaven. All others are wrong and hell bound. We are brothers, others are enemies to be converted. You believe and obey whatever your religion dishes out to you without any question."
      >>>Dharma is about inner nature and improvement on it through seeking truth 'Satya' and discipline 'Yoga.' An individual may practice any or go to any temple. There is always overlaps of people's ideas and practices.
      >>>To group people into a legal boxes like Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim etc. is good only in the census. Otherwise, it has absolutely no merit in real spiritual studies. Do Hindus go to Buddhist temple and pray or not? Matter of
      fact, Hinduism is not Dharma, but collection of Dharmas evolved in Indian sub-continent like - Vaishnav, Shaiva, Baudha, Jain, Tantra etc. Do you see any Muslims praying in Church or Temple? No, you will not see any. On the contrary, they destroyed Bamiyan Buddha.
      >>>Let us be very clear about it.
      >>>Sincerely,
      >>>Tilak Shrestha, Ph.D.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>________________________________
      >>>To: TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com; greenlogic@yahoogroups.com; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com; Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      >>>From: greenbhanu@...
      >>>Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 04:59:58 -0800
      >>>Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Philosophy: Restoring the Soul
      >>>
      >>> 
      >>>BHANU :
      >>>>
      >>>> 
      >>>>Understanding
      Dharma and Materialistic Anarchy :
      >>>>Proposing *Political Religion*
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Shouldn*t
      we make the matter of understanding dharma simpler by shedding exaggerated
      mystique about the word *dharma* by way of taking the term *religion* as its
      trans-language synonym? The current usage of the term *dharma* in its place of
      origin (India) is almost identical with the usage of the term *religion* in its
      place of origin (the West).
      >>>> 
      >>>>            According
      to the current usage, religion may be defined as a set of moral and social
      rules that sprout a commensurate culture composed of characteristic public
      behaviors and events that include moralizing ritualism.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Philosophy
      is a body of fundamental postulates that explains the nature of religion.
      Though it is likely that the three terms - religion, culture and philosophy -
      would get mixed up quite often in lay conversations, the formal line of
      demarcation between the three ought to be invoked when necessary. The Sanskrit
      translations for the trio *philosophy-religion-culture* is *darshana-dharma-samskriti*.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            With
      this prelude, I would like to check your (Devinder Singh Gulati*s) given narration
      line by line and issue my opinions. This juxtaposition will be a good beginning
      for mutual understanding, I suppose. The manner of this interaction ought to be
      candid and we shouldn*t leave between us much room for shallow fusses. Let the
      discussion henceforth be put down in conversation format.
      >>>>(Devinder
      – Bhanu Dialog)
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :In evolving standards of conduct and
      shaping values, we have to take into consideration the variety and complexity
      of human life and nature.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :Yes, human life and human nature is
      very complex and variegated. Yes, evolving standards of conduct and shaping
      values need extreme precaution and care. But who are the people you have in
      mind who would be undertaking such a gigantic project. This project is
      tantamount to invention of a religion (dharma).
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Let*s
      assume that you are the person who have set sail in that direction. That is
      fine. You would be the founder guru (adi-guru) who would collect information as
      much as possible and combine them into a hierarchy of inferences till you have a
      world view and an integrated philosophy of life (darshana).
      >>>> 
      >>>>            That
      you do at a very personal level according to your intellectual capacity. In
      other words, all the constituent inferences that would make the world view and
      integrated philosophy of life would be your *personal truths*. Even the world
      view and integrated philosophy you would arrive at are only *peak* personal
      truths, characteristic of your own intellect.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Let*s
      get rid of the baffle that we experience across such utterances as *truth*,
      *reality*, *actuality* etc. You perceive actuality as the immediate cause and
      conceive the underlying deeper causes as realities and connect the sequence of realities
      into a truth. It is useful to remind ourselves of this *actuality-reality-truth
      axis* quite often lest we are not lost in the dazzle of such words.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            If
      all inferences you accede to are mere *personal truths*, what about the *absolute
      truth*? No, you don*t accede to the absolute truth ever. Practically or
      effectively, an acknowledged and relatively higher understanding in the form of
      a higher inference may sometimes be addressed to as absolute truth. But that
      isn*t an accurate approach, though practical and effective to a great extent.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Absolute
      truth may lie in the direction of the median (locus) that runs through and connects
      the sequence of personal truths. Thus the absolute truth can only be an intellectual
      direction, never a particular inference.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Degree
      of sustainability of a guru thus is his/ her ability to be more resolute and less
      lax intellectually, so that lesser and lesser number of resolute personal
      inferences portend the *absolute direction of truth*. This inverse proportion
      makes appraisal of guru, philosophy and religion quite paradoxical and critical,
      often precarious.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            The
      pyramid of truth accruing out of the founder guru and a sequence of follower
      gurus foreshadows a social code, a body of practical rules that need to be
      pronounced, propagated and implemented. This code also ought to include a lean moralizing
      ritualism that would optimally remind the crowd of the cardinal inferences and
      principles that reinforce the pyramid of truth.
      >>>>            This
      psycho-intellectual process is religion (dharma). The ensuing metamorphosed
      public behavior and elevated events would constitute the commensurate culture
      (sanskriti).
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :The Dharma, at once religious law of
      action and deepest law of our nature, is not, as in the Western idea, a creed,
      cult or ideal inspiring an ethical and social rule; it is the right law of
      functioning of our life in all its parts.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :We were talking about the generic
      guru and the commensurate religion, philosophy or  culture. A particular guru would give rise to
      a particular commensurate religion, philosophy or culture. The sequence of the
      founder gurus of generic religion would endeavor to traverse forward along the *absolute
      direction of truth* to discover higher and higher particular religions,
      philosophies and cultures.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            We
      mustn*t mistake *generic religion* for *absolute religion*. As we have already
      noted, there is no absolute religion, no absolute philosophy, no absolute
      culture, no absolute guru, no absolute truth. We have only a series of
      practicable religions of differing potentialities and capacities for public
      welfare.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            So
      no particular religion can be deemed to have harbored the deepest law of human
      nature or the law of deepest human nature. However, a particular religion can
      promote the *absolute direction of truth* by teaching the commensurable public methodology
      and mechanism. At any point of time or space, the generic religion can emerge
      as only a creed, developing into a cult (a particular religion), with an ideal.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            What
      about a particular religion which has discovered, enunciated and begun to
      implement the public methodology and mechanism of following the *absolute
      direction of truth*? This would be a magnanimous religion, a pragmatic
      religion, a progressive religion and yet it wouldn*t be the absolute religion.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            We
      have to get rid of the specter of overemphasizing own insufficient religiosity
      in the name of absoluteness. This has been a tragic philosophical error in the
      realm of theology.
      >>>>           
      >>>>DEVINDER :The tendency of man to seek after a
      just and perfect law of his living finds its truth and its justification in the
      Dharma. Everything indeed has its dharma, its law of life imposed on it by its
      nature; but for man the dharma is the conscious imposition of a rule of ideal
      living on all his members.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :Dharma is always *the enunciated one*.
      We can say that a group of people ought to have a dharma if they do not have one
      at the moment. We can*t say that they have a dharma just because they wish to
      have one, although they haven*t yet been able to enunciate it even crudely.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Saying
      that everything has a dharma would replace *enunciated inference* and *promulgated
      commensurate law* by *property* (guna) in the aforesaid definition of dharma.
      This would further baffle understanding of dharma and thwart its emergence.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            You
      are right when you say that dharma is conscious and consented and collective self-imposition
      of a integral body of enunciated social and moral rules to promote the highest realized
      ideal.
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :Dharma is fixed in its essence, but
      still it develops in our consciousness and evolves and has its stages; there
      are gradations of spiritual and ethical ascension in the search for the highest
      law of our nature.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :Dharma remains still a search even as
      it gets implemented, true, but it never has a fixed intellectual essence in metaphysical,
      moral, social or spiritual terms. The elusive absolute truth hasn*t been in the
      grip of the current dharma ever.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            As
      we say this, we are aware of the importance of the public methodology and
      mechanism of achieving the *absolute direction of truth*.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            You
      are right when you say that inferences about nature form a pyramidal hierarchy whose
      understanding facilitates spiritual and ethical ascension.
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :All men cannot follow in all things
      one common and invariable rule. Life is too complex to admit of the arbitrary
      ideal simplicity which the moralizing theorist loves. Natures differ; the
      position, the work we have to do has its own claims and standards; the aim and
      bent, the call of life, the call of the spirit within is not the same for
      everyone: the degree and turn of development and the capacity, adhikara, are
      not equal. Man lives in society and by society, and every society has its own
      general dharma, and the individual life must be fitted into this wider law of
      movement. But there too the individual’s part in society and his nature and the
      needs of his capacity and temperament vary and have many kinds and degrees: the
      social law must make some room for this variety and would lose by being rigidly
      one for all.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :You are right when you say that the
      body of moral and social laws constitutes of situation-specific adapted constituents.
      Codification has been a herculean task. It is easier to talk about ethereal matters
      than to translate them into earthen affairs. Here comes the fallacy of
      exaggerations about absoluteness as a fatal hindrance.
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :A lawless impulsion of desire and
      interest and propensity cannot be allowed to lead human conduct; even in the
      frankest following of desire and interest and propensity there must be a
      governing and restraining and directing line, a guidance. There must be an
      ethic or a science, a restraint as well as a scope arising from the truth of
      the thing sought, a standard of perfection, an order.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :Take the other perspective.
      Law-making ought to be a democratic process so that its implementation is
      acknowledged integrally by the society. Impulsive lawlessness is ruled out
      through disciplinary enforcement. That is not a problem. The real problem is
      with the process of law-making.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            Take
      two societies of differing intellectual achievements. The two respective pyramids
      of inferences vary in height and sprawl. Naturally, the respective qualities of
      laws will vary, one being guided by a higher ideal (higher peak inference) than
      the other.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            And
      accordingly, the former will be rewarded with larger progress than the latter.
      This will create consternation in the latter society. If the explanation for
      the civilization lag is denied too long, this society would revolt against
      itself quite implicitly, the wealth in the neighborhood being the source of
      distraction.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            The
      ultimate cause for this *purported* materialistic anarchy is not being able to cope
      intellectually with the neighboring society. *Intellectually* refers here to *civil
      intellectualism*, not to a stunted academicism. Please note that public desire in
      any form, however contrary it may seem, need not be always seen as *lawless*.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            You
      have raised the most pertinent issue of *public guidance*. Who could guide a sovereign
      society? If *inferring* is the prime process by which it achieves intellectual
      height and material progress, what is that public methodology and mechanism
      that could achieve this (public process of widespread inferring)? This
      methodology and mechanism also would also discover and implement the *absolute
      direction of truth* as well.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            The
      generic name for this methodology and mechanism is *polity*. So, we are looking
      forward to that particular type of polity that would accomplish the twin
      objective of finding the absolute direction of truth and effecting intellectual
      coping.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            As
      the story unfolds further, we are drawn to the consideration of the *political
      religion* (raja-dharma) that would surpass existing cultural religions in
      import and worth.
      >>>> 
      >>>>            What
      is that model? However, that is another phase altogether.  
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :The universal embracing dharma in the
      Indian idea is a law of ideal perfection for the developing mind and soul of
      man; it compels him to grow in the power and force of certain high or large
      universal qualities which in their harmony build a highest type of manhood.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :The phrases *universe-embracing
      dharma* and *Indian idea* don*t go together - me and your are sure. Perfection
      that connotes absoluteness too is, in a way, ruled out. What you could be
      looking forward to is the aforesaid public methodology and mechanism that could
      unravel and implement absolute direction of truth and that could bring about
      fastest psycho-cultural coping among societies.
      >>>> 
      >>>>DEVINDER :Dharma has two aspects: universal,
      which is common to all humanity and the individual or specific, which is unique
      to the nature of the individual or the community.
      >>>> 
      >>>>BHANU :You are right when you differentiate
      generic religion (dharma) from its particular cases in the form of a cultures
      (samskritis).
      >>>>.....................
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>(Bhanu Padmo)
      >>>>http://www.bhanupadmo.comYou may reply this thread
      upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well
      >>>>or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.
      >>>>
      >>>> 
      >>>>
      >>>>________________________________
      >>>>
      >>>>From:devindersingh gulati
      <dgulhati@...>
      >>>>To: "TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com"
      <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>Sent: Wednesday, 19 December 2012, 7:49
      >>>>Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Fw: Tears of Reason for Connecticut's Slain
      Children
      >>>> 
      >>>> 
      >>>>In evolving standards
      of conduct and shaping values, we have to take into consideration the variety
      and complexity of human life and nature.
      >>>>The Dharma, at once
      religious law of action and deepest law of our nature, is not, as in the
      Western idea, a creed, cult or ideal inspiring an ethical and social rule; it
      is the right law of functioning of our life in all its parts.
      >>>>The tendency of man
      to seek after a just and perfect law of his living finds its truth and its
      justification in the Dharma. Everything indeed has its dharma, its law of life
      imposed on it by its nature; but for man the dharma is the conscious imposition
      of a rule of ideal living on all his members.
      >>>>Dharma is fixed in
      its essence, but still it develops in our consciousness and evolves and has its
      stages; there are gradations of spiritual and ethical ascension in the search
      for the highest law of our nature.
      >>>>All men cannot follow
      in all things one common and invariable rule. Life is too complex to admit of
      the arbitrary ideal simplicity which the moralizing theorist loves. Natures
      differ; the position, the work we have to do has its own claims and standards;
      the aim and bent, the call of life, the call of the spirit within is not the
      same for everyone: the degree and turn of development and the capacity,
      adhikara, are not equal. Man lives in society and by society, and every society
      has its own general dharma, and the individual life must be fitted into this
      wider law of movement. But there too the individual’s part in society and his
      nature and the needs of his capacity and temperament vary and have many kinds
      and degrees: the social law must make some room for this variety and would lose
      by being rigidly one for all.
      >>>>A lawless impulsion
      of desire and interest and propensity cannot be allowed to lead human conduct;
      even in the frankest following of desire and interest and propensity there must
      be a governing and restraining and directing line, a guidance. There must be an
      ethic or a science, a restraint as well as a scope arising from the truth of
      the thing sought, a standard of perfection, an order.
      >>>>The universal
      embracing dharma in the Indian idea is a law of ideal perfection for the
      developing mind and soul of man; it compels him to grow in the power and force
      of certain high or large universal qualities which in their harmony build a
      highest type of manhood.
      >>>>Dharma has two
      aspects: universal, which is common to all humanity and the individual or
      specific, which is unique to the nature of the individual or the community.
      [More...]
      >>>>http://fdi.sasociety.in/cms/index.php/fdi/article/360_The_Way_of_Dharma
      >>>> 
      >>>>Gulati


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