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55939Re: Green Jahaad

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  • William
    Jun 9, 2011
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
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      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
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      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
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      > > > Bill,
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      > > > If you are referring to "Green Jihad" in Forbes by Joel Kotkin, I found it to be preaching to the deregulation choir. I agree with Zizek and others who think a genuine environmental agenda won't succeed without dismantling global corporatism. As your example of the Cairo recyclers who are being squeezed out at the expense of real sanitation shows, "The man's too big, the man's too strong."
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      > > > Mary
      > > > Mary, Yes that is the article and deregulation would make sense as a financial pages position. I think we are lucky to have the two sides mentioned working to dilute the effects of a tyrrany by either position. <
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      > So very many things are wrong with that article. Primary is what we call its sensible position--deregulation is always the business friendly position. When business places profit above the environment and worker rights, it isn't sensible at all; it is `green' and `terrorist'--to further spin language like the author. Green with its greed and naive attitude towards the environment, and terrorist in its power to threaten and suddenly move jobs, thereby traumatizing families and stressing social services. Pitting the profits of a few against the survival of the many has no philosophical foundation. But that financial magazine is meant to reinforce that particular business dogma and spread its good news to new and small businesses-- many who are women and/or minority--creating the recent phenomena of such who now spout conservative, tea bagging, and bootstrapping rhetoric. This is as oxymoronic as `green jihad'. This is postmodern.
      > Now, I have never known what postmodernism is. Is Zizak a post modernist? I have a system of time management, I drop reading a subject if I find it errant or obnoxious. Putting concepts in your brain takes time and energy so I do not want to load garbage. It is much the same as I do not do acid, I retain respect for my mind.
      > > The Cairo garbage matter leaves me with few positive thoughts. The multinationals are paying bribes to do the sanitation and recycle only 20% while the traditional garbage people claim 80% recycling. It is difficult to see either side as having great positive results. The garbage people are so absymal that I could not sanction that level of existance. The multi nationals just want a bottom line and could care less for the indegenous people. <
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      > I agree, because what makes actual sense is to hire Zabellen at living wages and continue recycling. I recently learned about the thwarted attempt of the WTO to implement MAI (the Multilateral Agreement on Investment). According to Zizek, and reinforced by other sources, this plan would have enabled foreign investors "to undermine national sovereignty by assigning to these corporations powers almost equal to the countries in which they are located." Activists revealed this, causing first France and then others, to refuse participation. But as we now see, the old tried and true method of bribery is more successful than international accords.
      > I do not know who is competing with whom. We have the multinationalist agenda and we have a nationalist agenda. It would seem Zizek is sporting a nationalist cause. Is he an American? I associate the post modernist agenda with the new world order people. I do not trust the new world order as I have no chance to elect them or even find out who they are.The American Indians were treated as they were because we had the power and advancement to force them into our system. I`m not making a moral judgement about that, is what happned. I see a similar situation coming up with the Isalmic world. This is an odd man out world and ancient systems lose because they cannot compete. As a whole the only Islamic countries that compete are the ones with oil. Afganistan,Iraque, Syria, Yeman, Egypt, Lybia have come apart with different situations adherant to each failure, Lybia and Iraque have oil and might survive but the others may fall into chaos. If they disentegrate into radical terrorist states they should consider 9/11 their Little Big Horn. I would point it out to them as I do not think Americans will allow boots on the ground to combat aggression against this country. So if I do not support the New world order and consider myself an American my response could resemble the attitudes toward native americans when we trampled them over. Poor Islamic peoples are prime for some of the same erridication methods we used against the indians. Starvation, witholding of medical care, innoculation of deadly disease are relatively passive. This is the future we and they face and denial is no help. It will happen differently in each of the mentioned countries but oil will enter greatly into each outcome. You see this as an philosophical problem where I see it as a geopolitical situation that defies any philosophical remedy. These failing states are here,now. Our failure to confront our energy problems are here, now. Cold pragmatics will operate in this major world change and I do not plan to be blindsided when the facts come out.
      > > I know some think the Arab spring a great boon to the Arab peoples and the west. I think that most simplistic as the entire Islamic world has millenia of change to absorb but little time left on the cateclism clock. Now Zizek may be correct regarding the demise of the multinationals being necessary for enviromental goals to be met but how long can he hold his breath? The antithetical positions must compromise or one side must win. The environmentalists do not have the economic power to win and the multinationals seem a more probable winner. By then we may have burned ourselves off the planet. Who does the sanitation in Cairo is secondary to them breeding themselves into oblivion. Thay are now under marshal law with no viable government. The muslim brotherhood is the only viable party so it seems we are gaining little ground there. As we leave Iraque and Afganistan the nation building will dry up and those ancient peoples and systems slide back not forge ahead. The only solution seems to be the sand will come up to swallow them thats if we do not nuke them first. Bill<
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      > So much of what you say eerily resembles the rationale for decimating America's aboriginals once used to open borders and promote `free trade', just like NAFTA today. A cataclysm looms because proponents of capitalism/militarism are impatient for `victory'. And it isn't so much a matter of holding one's breath, but of speaking the truth until one's last breath. To compromise that, to adopt the enemy's rhetoric, to rationalize, delude and anesthetize ourselves rather than suffer, disgraces us. It is better to admit we fail and suffer for it, than to lie to ourselves. If I'm going to throw myself under a Juggernaut, it will be that of recognizing my complicity in the system, suffering for it, while remaining useful and even joyful--a most absurd tension--and not compromise by justifying the horror.
      > It is an absurd world and I accept that. I am an existentialist and Camus explained that concept well. Why be guilty about decisions that were not yours or even in your time frame. As to compromise that is an art form and I will not feel compromised by breathing. That sounds like concupisance and I gave up that theory fifty years ago. Bill
      > Mary
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