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36683RE: [existlist] Re: "Christian" existentialism

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  • Herman B. Triplegood
    Nov 9, 2005
      Yes Aija, folk cosmologies are relevant to a philosophical discussion of the
      transcendence relation.



      From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Aija Veldre Beldavs
      Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:37 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: "Christian" existentialism

      this bounced earlier, maybe the server at this end...

      > What is beyond experience is a pretty vague notion anyway. Dark matter
      > is beyond experience, yet we have good scientific reasons for believing
      > that it exists. Black holes are beyond normal everyday experience, yet
      > we have all but proven that they actually do exist. The eleven
      > dimensional physical manifold of M-theory, although still only an
      > hypothesis, is reasonable enough to the sober minded physicists who
      > continue to strive to unify their ontological map of the physical
      > universe, yet clearly any dimensions beyond the three that we are
      > familiar with in our everyday common experience are, technically
      > speaking, beyond our immediate experience.

      > It could be, as Heidegger has so insistently maintained through the
      > course of his meditations on the ontological question, that the entire
      > metaphysical history of Western philosophy needs to be gutted. I tend to
      > believe this. But it is not my intention to explain away the
      > transcendence by reducing it to a psychologistic sense of wonder. The
      > philosophical wonder is the initial impetus toward the noesis. Voegelin
      > believed that this noesis flourished briefly in the classical
      > transcendental philosophies of Plato and Aristotle, but has since been
      > obscured by dogmatic theology and metaphysics. Heidegger places the
      > point of obscuration further back into the Pre-Socratic period.

      i am interested in folk cosmologies. the latvian daina-world or
      song-world might be compared to some period of archaic Greek (some aspect
      of Homeric, pre-Socratic more likely than Platonic or post). its
      cognitive roots are pre-Christian.

      how much of the daina-world is indo-european is debatable (the baltic
      daina-world and finnic runo/kalevala-world have connections all the way
      back), and in any case the "same" concept is not necessarily interpreted
      "the same" among different i-e or finno-ugric "branches" but varies by
      region, place, time, and unique influence from contacts with others each
      group makes uniquely.

      oversimplifying, the area around the Baltic part of the northern european
      world goes back to the aboriginal Mesolithic peoples who seem to have been
      indo-europeanized as Finnic, Baltic, and Old Scandinavian as the result of
      new peoples moving north, after that from the south Old Slavic plus other
      influences thrown in as spice in continuous movement in any case resulting
      in some concepts broadly common to this geographical area, but others
      differing according to region. it is interesting because there are both
      similarities and differences to commonly known world cosmological models.

      the daina-world (analogous to such a division in other mythologies)
      appears to be divided in two areas of experience, immediate labeled as
      This-sun (Shi saule) and conceptual beyond direct experience That-sun
      (Vinjsaule). in this conceptualization humans are also aware of two or
      three types of time:

      1) finite based on the duration of human or living creature time (thus,
      mans mu'zin's' - my time)

      2) infinite "sun time" also the time in which "water" and "stone"
      participate ("not for me to live a sun time; for the water, for the stone
      to live a sun time" - nedzi'vot saules mu'z'u; udenjam, akmenjam tam
      dzi'vot saules mu'z'u.)

      3) Beyond-the-sun (Aizsaule) - a metaworld neither This-sun nor That-sun

      but This-sun is not the most immediate experience. the most immediate is
      one's birth from a human finite mother. "Mother, my dear mother, you are
      not my infinite time mother (mu'za mate). This-sun, this-earth, she
      (singular) is my infinite time mother. (Mate, mana mila mate, ne ta mana
      muza mate. Si saulite, si zemite, ta bij mana muza mate.)

      the sun (Saule), appearing as mother reborn as daughter, is the primary
      relevant time marker referent to the human in a shared realm with the
      stars and the (male) moon). the (feminine) earth Zeme is also known as
      under-sun world (Pasaule).

      the sun-world and the earth-world though perceived separately are also
      linked as one - "mother." the concept of a "tree" as an in-between (of
      finite, infinite) concept links different worlds in many Eurasian
      cosmologies, including the Baltic. there were sacred trees that were
      known to have survived many generations of humans, but trees unlike water
      or stone die like humans, animals, or seasonal vegetation. that's where
      the two-tiered or three-tiered or multiple-tiered worlds schemas come in.

      immediate, lived experience of This-sun concretely is the space one lives,
      which for the pre-industrial farmer was his homestead, or the fisherman on
      the Baltic Sea his village.

      2) includes not only what is strange, not well understood, uncontrolable,
      or of what one is barely aware. in mythology this includes the wild
      surrounding the domestic space (concretely it could be the forest). it is
      the locus of wild life, nature spirits some of whom may come to be
      deified. since burial in pre-Christian times used to be in sacred forests
      or in waters - also the realm of the dead.

      on a perceptual level there is no clear division of the unfamiliar space
      spatially if on earth but in the wild, above in the heavens, or below
      earth in a cave or the depths of a lake or a grave. such a distinction is
      made by systemizers of myth who come up with alternative self-consistent
      structures. but if there are no systemizers and it is oral, then the
      unfamiliar (nature and guiding spirists, the ancestors) can remain in a
      dream-world that doesn't have to be logically consistent.

      parallel daina-myths have the orphan girl locate her mother in the world
      to which the sun travels each night, or in the forest beneath the roots of
      an apple tree (a mother symbol). psychologically it is to a realm about
      which one can speculate. when i sang these logically conflicting songs as
      a child, the alternative songs did not originally strike me as belonging
      to conflicting spatial paradigms. there are dainas that imagine
      Othersunworld to be in some ways a fuzzily observable more spiritual
      parallel to Thisworld, but there are also dainas that bluntly state:

      s'i' sauli'te man zinama, vin'sauli'te nezinama.
      (this sun is known to me, that sun is not known to me.)


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