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19309Re: [existlist] subjectivity

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  • yeoman
    Apr 21, 2003
      Mark,

      This whole discussion is pointless. You make up your own
      labels and then argue against them, as if they were my
      words. I have pointed out that there article in Scientific
      American dealt with the subjective. You may well repeat
      that this is objectivity, but your arguments are not
      convincing nor illuminating. Lets drop this subject.

      eduard

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Mark and Bev Tindall" <tindall@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 7:58 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] subjectivity


      > Eduard wrote:
      >
      > > > Subjectivity is only known by science OBJECTIVELY
      because
      > > that is the
      > > > methodology of science - objective methodology.
      > > Subjectivity can be known
      > > > SUBJECTIVELY by existentialism because that is the
      > > methodoloy of
      > > > existentialism - subjective methodology. Science
      could
      > > measure in a
      > > > subjective manner if it wanted to (i.e. it is abole to
      do
      > > so) but measuring
      > > > in a subjective manner is excluded from objective
      > > scientific methodology.
      > > > If science measured in a subjective manner it would no
      > >> longer be science but something else - a pseudoscience.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > ---> But this ignores that science is presently
      studying
      > > the subjective.
      >
      >
      > It is studying the subjective OBJECTIVELY ... by OBJECTIVE
      methodology which
      > excludes SUBJECTIVE methodology! Read above.
      >
      >
      > > > Science cannot feel the same as the person who is
      > >> undergoing depression for every person is unique and
      science
      > >> cannot read the person's innermost being. Science
      cannot
      > >> know the individual's non-physical mind as it has no
      method
      > >> of measuring it. It cannot be measured objectively.
      It can
      > >> only be
      > > > experienced by the person him/herself.
      > > ---> This is true. But science can delve into the
      > > subjective [as you have said] and that is what I am
      saying.
      >
      >
      > It can only delve into the subject in an OBJECTIVE manner
      and therefore
      > looses an important area of subjectivity ...SUBJECTIVE
      METHODOLOGY. Read
      > again.
      >
      >
      > > But you do bring up an interesting point. If science
      cannot
      > > read the person's innermost being, then it follows that
      > > neither can religious existentialism.
      >
      > It can when it is INDIVIDUAL, PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE.
      Faith is not a group
      > exercise but an individual, personal and subjective
      experience! An
      > individual can read his / her own innermost being and that
      is what Christian
      > existentialism says. Furthermore this is where the
      meeting with the
      > transcendence of God ad ground and Source of all being
      occurs ... in the
      > depths of the individual's spirit / non-phyical mind.
      >
      >
      >
      > > Does religious existentialism enter the patient's
      > > unique mind??
      >
      >
      > The unique individual enters his / her own non-physical
      mind belonging that
      > same unique individual him / herself. Existentialism is a
      subjective
      > philosophical methodolgy not a physical item.
      >
      >
      >
      > > > > There is a good article in this month's Scientific
      > > American
      > > >
      > > > This is all objective quantitative measurement of
      > >> subjectivity not subjective qualitatiuve measurement of
      > >> subjecvtivity. They are not the same.
      > >
      > > ---> You are simply making labels, as you see fit, and
      > > applying them without any proof.
      >
      >
      > Reread. Description and words mean something and are not
      there for pure
      > decorative purposes.
      >
      >
      > > ---> I did not say that science can reproduce the
      artist.
      > > What i was saying was that the artist could be
      understood.
      > > That is an entirely different matter.
      >
      > Sciuence cannot subjectively understand the artist. All
      science is capable
      > of is objectively understanding the artist. If it does
      anything else it is
      > not science.
      >
      > Is Paul Davies wrong about science?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > > > My point being that this area of subjectivity is
      open to
      > > > > scientific study.
      > > >
      > > > Yes it is! But only OBJECTIVELY and therefore only
      gives
      > > a partial answer
      > > > to the whole because it cannot study subjectivity in a
      > > SUBJECTIVE manner. That is the problem! Science only
      > > studies subjectivity in an OBJECTIVE way because
      objective
      > > methodology is the only methodology it uses.
      > >
      > > ---> Which brings us back to my original point. What
      then
      > > studies individual existence in any manner??
      >
      >
      > SUBJECTIVE
      EXISTENTIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      >
      > [.... banging my head on a brick wall ... doh! doh! doh!
      ................]
      >
      >
      >
      > > You have already said that individuality is unique.
      >
      > Yes!
      >
      >
      >
      > > How is the unique and subjective viewpoint of "I love
      Doris"
      > > studied by religious existentialism?
      >
      > The same as any other type of EXISTENTIALISM ...SUBJECTIVE
      METHODOLOGY ---
      > it is still EXISTENTIALISM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      >
      > [.... banging my head on a brick wall again ... doh! doh!
      doh!
      > ................]
      >
      >
      > Mark
      >
      >
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