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19278Re: [existlist] subjectivity

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  • Mark and Bev Tindall
    Apr 21, 2003
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      Eduard wrote:

      > But does this mean that subjectivity cannot be known by
      > science??

      Subjectivity is only known by science OBJECTIVELY because that is the
      methodology of science - objective methodology. Subjectivity can be known
      SUBJECTIVELY by existentialism because that is the methodoloy of
      existentialism - subjective methodology. Science could measure in a
      subjective manner if it wanted to (i.e. it is abole to do so) but measuring
      in a subjective manner is excluded from objective scientific methodology.
      If science measured in a subjective manner it would no longer be science but
      something else - a pseudoscience.

      Example: Astronomy is objective science. Astrology is subjective
      pseudoscience (i.e. It purports to be run on objective scientific principles
      but is really subjective in its interpretation and allocation of life
      situations to the movement of planets and stars.)

      Example: Science can film a person undergoing severe depression. It can
      measure and record all the symptons and prescribe medication to work on
      areas of the physical brain to relieve symptoms. This is all objective,
      quantitative and impersonal. The patient is another client to work on.
      Science cannot feel the same as the person who is undergoing depression for
      every person is unique and science cannot read the person's innermost being.
      Science cannot know the individual's non-physical mind as it has no method
      of measuring it. It cannot be measured objectively. It can only be
      experienced by the person him/herself.

      Some areas of science may try to access the unmeasurable non-physical mind
      and subconscious through methodologies such as psycho-therapy (one of the
      few interdisciplinary areas of science). In truth the psycho-therapisit
      does not subjectively measure the patient. The patient progressively
      reveals him / her self to him / her self and finds his /her own unique
      individual answer. The psycho-therapist is a catalyst for the self
      exploration and can only be partially subjective in his / her compassion and
      empathy for the patient. The psycho-therapist cannot enter the patient's
      non-physical mind. The patient does the subjective entering of his / her
      own non-physical mind. The psycho-therapist probes so that the patient
      answers themself.




      > There is a good article in this month's Scientific American

      This is all objective quantitative measurement of subjectivity not
      subjective qualitatiuve measurement of subjecvtivity. They are not the
      same.


      > Understanding the subjective view of synesthetes leads into
      > the understanding of other mixing that occurs within the
      > broader population, and may give explanation for the
      > creativity of painters, poets and novelists.


      Science can never reproduce the artist. Art is more than objective
      technique. It is intensely subjective, personal and individualistic. It is
      to do with both the conscious and non-conscious non-physical mind,
      creativity, fantasy, the transcendent, metaphor, symbolism, etc etc etc.

      My introduction to this area was through Paul Tournier (a Christian) but by
      far the best work is that by C G Jung in 'Memories, Dreams, Reflections'. In
      particular, his work on Mandalas and his house, Bollingen, are related to
      art.


      > My point being that this area of subjectivity is open to
      > scientific study.

      Yes it is! But only OBJECTIVELY and therefore only gives a partial answer
      to the whole because it cannot study subjectivity in a SUBJECTIVE manner.
      That is the problem! Science only studies subjectivity in an OBJECTIVE way
      because objective methodology is the only methodology it uses.


      Mark
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