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Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Tim, spirits of homosexuality, King James and sodomy

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  • Tim Way
    Hi Phil, Hmmm, interesting and honest. Hmmm. Tim Way ncxds wrote: AMEN! --Alan ... contains ... method ... earlier ... natural ...
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2004
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      Hi Phil,

      Hmmm, interesting and honest. Hmmm. Tim Way

      ncxds <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      AMEN!

      --Alan

      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, philtft <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > I rarely bother to read the posts in here these days as most are
      > totally irrelevant tripe. However, sometimes even the tripe
      contains
      > something that just cannot go without comment.
      >
      > Yes, Tim, you are quite correct in saying the bible (in any version)
      > makes no reference I have seen to a spirit of homosexuality, or any
      > sexual spirit for that matter. Paul nowhere teaches that sinful
      > behaviour should be handled by thy casting out of demons. However,
      > this does not mean that in some cases, it may well have been a
      method
      > that has had success for some of our membership. God will work in
      > whatever way He chooses and in whatever way is appropriate for His
      > child. He is sovereign.
      >
      > However, Tim then totally destroys his own credibility with his
      > remarks on the King James version and the word "sodomy" in an
      earlier
      > post. Claiming that God, Himself uses that word to describe
      > homosexual acts. The King James invented the word sodomite to bring
      > into ancient English a translation for the Hebrew word qadesh: -
      >
      > qadesh, kaw-dashe'; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (techn.) a (male)
      > devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry
      >
      > Clearly it was a word chosen to indicate to the readers that these
      > people were guilty of the sin of Sodom. It was a very poor
      > translation, because the King James itself describes the sins of
      > Sodom as:
      >
      > Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of
      > bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters,
      > neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they
      > were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took
      > them away as I saw good. (Ezek 16:49-50)
      >
      > The link is clearly tenuous.
      >
      > Likewise, the words used in 1 Cor 6:9 are malakos and arsenokoites
      > which the KJV translates as "effeminate, nor abusers of themselves
      > with mankind". Even if we can assume that Paul orginally wrote or
      > dictated those actual words in Greek, the task of a Bible translator
      > is to give them meaning to an English speaking reader today. The
      > language of 17th Century England is not used in 21st Century America
      > or even England. As much as Tim would like to imply that God is a
      > 17th Century Englishman, He never has been and never will be. He
      > once appeared as a 1st Century Jewish man. In that guise his
      natural
      > language was ancient Hebrew, ancient Aramaic, and probably ancient
      > Greek. Maybe today a good translation of these words would be: "camp
      > bottoms" and "butch tops". Those phrases certainly convey far more
      > meaning to today's culture, and would probably be my own translation
      > of the Greek if I was speaking to the gay community - if a little
      > graphic for general use, and perhaps somewhat exclusive of other
      > homosexual behaviour.
      >
      > Since, however, He is my heavenly Father, He speaks to me in my
      > natural language. That means I want to read a version in 21st
      > century English. If Tim really wants to talk sense on such matters,
      > I suggest he takes a course in Old Testament Hebrew, New Testament
      > Greek and then faces upto the real problems of bible translation:
      eg
      > how do you translate the bible for the tribe in Papua New Guinea,
      who
      > have never seen or heard of sheep? What would they understand
      > by; "Behold the Lamb of God"? They only keep pigs. I doubt;
      "Behold
      > the piglet of God" would be helpful either - for other reasons.
      >
      > My point is that the primary function of any translation is to
      > communicate the word of God. The King James, however accurate it
      was
      > in 1611, has been unable to do that for a long while now.
      >
      > Phil



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    • ncxds
      So was King James blotted out for INTERPRETING the bible to fit the contemporary language of his day??? I think not!! Also, this is entirely off-topic. Any
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2004
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        So was King James "blotted out" for INTERPRETING the bible to fit the
        contemporary language of his day??? I think not!!

        Also, this is entirely off-topic. Any more replies to this should be
        done directly to the person.

        Thanks for understanding.

        --Alan

        --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Tim Way <inotheway@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hi Frank,
        >
        > Careful with the comparisons because calling the Lord Jesus
        Christ the piglet that takes away the sin of the world would be
        abominable blasphemy. Pigs were abominable to the Lord in the old
        Testement. We are safer to just translate it word for word rather than
        neutering the Word of God by changing the text to fit our delemic
        situation. As far as the New Guinea is concerned he can learn what a
        sheep is easier than taking away from the Word of God. Also if you
        don't think it matters to change the preserved Word then you should
        read Revelation 22:18-19. If you don't want your name blotted out of
        the Book of Life that is. That is the real issue behind the KJV
        matter.Tim Way
        >
        > Franksta01 <franksta@n...> wrote:
        > Phil,
        >
        > I think you do well to point out that the only "accurate" version of
        > God's Word is in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek (and
        > Aramaic). Even in those sources there are discrepancies and
        > questions. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as perfectly
        > unequivocal language.
        >
        > BUT....your argument also misses the issue of context. You spoke of
        > the "tenuous" link between Sodom and homosexual conduct. The verses
        > you quoted from Ezekiel are only part of the story. What about Jude
        > 6-7? "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority
        > but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound
        > with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar
        > way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up
        > to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of
        > those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
        >
        > Regarding sheep and pigs: I spent a summer in Zambia where the
        local
        > staple is a form of maize (corn meal) called "nshima." Now, they
        > have European-style bread there (and a native word for it), but it
        is
        > typically only desired by (and affordable to) rich foreigners. When
        > missionaries first translated the Bible into the local language,
        they
        > wisely had Jesus saying "I am the Nshima of Life," and not "Bread."
        > They wanted to communicate that Jesus was filling (Zambians don't
        > feel full unless they've eaten nshima) and for everyone (not just
        > rich white folks).
        >
        > So, if in Papua New Guinea, the best way to understand the
        > sacrificial nature of Jesus is to call Him the "Piglet of God"--I
        say
        > Amen!
        >
        > Ever in His peace,
        >
        > Frank
        >
        >
        >
        > Questions on the group? contact founder directly at: ncxds@y...
        >
        > The Ex-Gay Discussion Board is a ministry of:
        > NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet Ministries
        >
        > Feel free to link to these pages on your own website:
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • philtft
        Tim It is fair I should point out that I believe the problem was solved by writing a booklet all about sheep to go with the Bible translation. I only hope the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2004
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          Tim

          It is fair I should point out that I believe the problem was solved
          by writing a booklet all about sheep to go with the Bible
          translation. I only hope the booklet isn't considered part of their
          canon. Piglet was rejected on the grounds you mentioned.

          Phil


          --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Tim Way <inotheway@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Frank,
          >
          > Careful with the comparisons because calling the Lord Jesus
          Christ the piglet that takes away the sin of the world would be
          abominable blasphemy. Pigs were abominable to the Lord in the old
          Testement. We are safer to just translate it word for word rather
          than neutering the Word of God by changing the text to fit our
          delemic situation. As far as the New Guinea is concerned he can learn
          what a sheep is easier than taking away from the Word of God. Also if
          you don't think it matters to change the preserved Word then you
          should read Revelation 22:18-19. If you don't want your name blotted
          out of the Book of Life that is. That is the real issue behind the
          KJV matter.Tim Way
          >
        • Roger Stuart
          Guys, lets be careful at overstating out positions. Jesus always used examples of what people of his day knew. Some of us do not get what he was saying if we
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 3, 2004
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            Guys, lets be careful at overstating out positions.

            Jesus always used examples of what people of his day knew. Some of us
            do not get what he was saying if we have not been to Israel to see and
            understood the mustard seed that is so small, it could be under your
            fingernail in clusters and you wouldn't know it. I can provide many
            examples of how Westerners misinterpret the Bible because of their lack
            of the geography, traditions, customs and taboos. Does anyone realize
            Jesus actually called a woman a Dog, implying she had no soul? That's
            what the Jews of the day thought of Samitarians and would travel around
            Samaria instead of through it. Also, how big is one grape that it takes
            two people to carry it hanging on a pole by two people?

            In the missionary field, where there are no sheep, it's kind of hard to
            explain "The lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the world" to
            someone who hasn't the slightest idea of what you mean. You need
            something for them to relate to. That would be the piglet. Some New
            Guinea tribes believe the soul of the body is in the throat. So if you
            speak of the heart, you might as well be discussing the gall bladder.
            If you teach these people in ways they cannot understand, they will not
            understand. Later, when they grow in Grace, they will eventually learn
            what the heart is and what sheep are. Missionaries do not write Bibles
            transforming sheep into pigs.

            In New Guinea, the greatest of witchdoctors were known as "spitters" and
            they exercised their craft through spitting. When they heard the Gospel
            account of the blind man (literally, born without eyes), Jesus spat on
            the ground, made mud balls (from the dirt which Adam was created) and
            shoved them into his eye sockets. He just didn't give the blind man a
            facial, he created him a set of eyes from the dust of the earth. When
            the Witchdoctors learned that, the all came to realize Jesus is God, for
            he was "the greatest spitter of us all". That stunned the missionaries,
            because witchdoctors were the hardest to evangelize.

            In Hebrew, there is no punctuation like exclamation points. So, to
            define emphasis, a word would be repeated. If you want the LITERAL
            translation of the chariots of Pharaoh going after the Israelites to
            slaughter them, the chariots got caught in the "pit pit" What the heck
            is a pit pit? All I can imagine is if you get your chariot caught in a
            pit pit, you have a problem. Some translations say "bitumen". What the
            heck is bitumen? Other translations "interpreted the Bible to fit the
            contemporary language" to say "tar pits". Shall we take translators
            who took such liberty for us to understand the scriptures and burn them
            at the stake?

            If you have no missionary aspirations, this argument is simply another
            lesson in futility.

            If people are this short fused about matters those calling the shots
            consider such discussions off-topic, lets either drop the whole
            Christian thing and talk about nothing else except how not to be gay, or
            learn to control their tempers better.

            In Him!
            Roger

            -----Original Message-----
            From: ncxds [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:58 PM
            To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Tim, spirits of homosexuality, King James and
            sodomy

            So was King James "blotted out" for INTERPRETING the bible to fit the
            contemporary language of his day??? I think not!!

            Also, this is entirely off-topic. Any more replies to this should be
            done directly to the person.

            Thanks for understanding.

            --Alan

            --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Tim Way <inotheway@y...>
            wrote:
            > Hi Frank,
            >
            > Careful with the comparisons because calling the Lord Jesus
            Christ the piglet that takes away the sin of the world would be
            abominable blasphemy. Pigs were abominable to the Lord in the old
            Testement. We are safer to just translate it word for word rather than
            neutering the Word of God by changing the text to fit our delemic
            situation. As far as the New Guinea is concerned he can learn what a
            sheep is easier than taking away from the Word of God. Also if you
            don't think it matters to change the preserved Word then you should
            read Revelation 22:18-19. If you don't want your name blotted out of
            the Book of Life that is. That is the real issue behind the KJV
            matter.Tim Way
            >
            > Franksta01 <franksta@n...> wrote:
            > Phil,
            >
            > I think you do well to point out that the only "accurate" version of
            > God's Word is in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek (and
            > Aramaic). Even in those sources there are discrepancies and
            > questions. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as perfectly
            > unequivocal language.
            >
            > BUT....your argument also misses the issue of context. You spoke of
            > the "tenuous" link between Sodom and homosexual conduct. The verses
            > you quoted from Ezekiel are only part of the story. What about Jude
            > 6-7? "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority
            > but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound
            > with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar
            > way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up
            > to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of
            > those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
            >
            > Regarding sheep and pigs: I spent a summer in Zambia where the
            local
            > staple is a form of maize (corn meal) called "nshima." Now, they
            > have European-style bread there (and a native word for it), but it
            is
            > typically only desired by (and affordable to) rich foreigners. When
            > missionaries first translated the Bible into the local language,
            they
            > wisely had Jesus saying "I am the Nshima of Life," and not "Bread."
            > They wanted to communicate that Jesus was filling (Zambians don't
            > feel full unless they've eaten nshima) and for everyone (not just
            > rich white folks).
            >
            > So, if in Papua New Guinea, the best way to understand the
            > sacrificial nature of Jesus is to call Him the "Piglet of God"--I
            say
            > Amen!
            >
            > Ever in His peace,
            >
            > Frank
            >
            >
            >
            > Questions on the group? contact founder directly at: ncxds@y...
            >
            > The Ex-Gay Discussion Board is a ministry of:
            > NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet Ministries
            >
            > Feel free to link to these pages on your own website:
            >
            > Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> | Discussion List: <http:
            //clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exgaydiscussionboard> | Chat: <http://chat.
            yahoo.com/?club=exgaydiscussionboard>
            >
            >
            > .yahoo.com/clubs/exgaydiscussionboard> | Chat: <http://chat.yahoo.
            com/?club=exgaydiscussionboard>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Questions on the group? contact founder directly at: ncxds@...

            The Ex-Gay Discussion Board is a ministry of:
            NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet Ministries

            Feel free to link to these pages on your own website:

            Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> | Discussion List:
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