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Re: Progress update.

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  • DebbieThurman
    Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our parents /grandparents
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
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      Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our parents'/grandparents' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed, albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers) were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying to find the middle ground.

      Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We definitely DO need more relational closeness.

      Debbie

      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Paul Silen <p_csilen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard. Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others. For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
      >
      > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
      > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. <secondchronicles7.14life@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Lester Demings Jr. <secondchronicles7.14life@...>
      > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
      > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hey group,
      >
      > I must ask a question at this point.
      > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds and battle scars?
      > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding it in my heart.
      > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved on.
      > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
      > Everybody was molested.
      > Everybody was abused.
      > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
      > When is it going to stop?
      > No, my father was not there.
      > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
      > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been like?
      > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had been like?
      > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the plan of God for our lives.
      > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take it and use it for HIS glory.
      > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy to deter us from reaching God.
      > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
      > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
      > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
      >
      > Les
      >
      >  "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
      > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
      >
      > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
      > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
      > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
      >
      >  
      > Hi Debbie,
      >
      > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves, especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to forgive.
      >
      > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?). Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant, saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
      >
      > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
      >
      > So, it's pretty raw.
      >
      > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep hearing she might not make it.
      >
      > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
      >
      > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
      >
      > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her dad. He said five years.
      >
      > She said that's longer than she knew him.
      >
      > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
      >
      > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to lessen some.
      >
      > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
      >
      > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a bit to crack this hard nut.
      >
      > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
      >
      > Tony
      >
      > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman" <debbie@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for you, as well as for others.
      > >
      > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have those tendencies.
      > >
      > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
      > >
      > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing, because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then. He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
      > >
      > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€" the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must be at times.
      > >
      > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it. It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
      > >
      > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes. That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€" the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot come without that.
      > >
      > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life. Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary, we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that freedom. Amen?
      > >
      > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
      > >
      > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you. Just think of me as a sister.
      > >
      > > Best,
      > >
      > > Debbie
      > >
      > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony" <tonyb0505@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends and to support each other, almost daily.
      > > >
      > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression and hopelessness.
      > > >
      > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
      > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
      > > >
      > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
      > > >
      > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk. You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good qualities.
      > > >
      > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
      > > >
      > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand, see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
      > > >
      > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
      > > >
      > > > I don't know....
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Tony
      > > >
      > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman" <debbie@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and over.
      > > > >
      > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I also had to grow through that realization.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other. Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened because I reached out, as you did.
      > > > >
      > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello," perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
      > > > >
      > > > > Best,
      > > > >
      > > > > Debbie
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to become of better father to little Paul.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it. I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me, and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes, cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
      > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture was too small.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open our selves up to him!
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Your brother,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Paul
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
      > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • Anthony
      This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else. Furthermore, I respect
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
        personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
        Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
        does believe.

        First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
        topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
        which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
        had by some visitation with past pain.

        I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
        their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
        Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
        arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.

        My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
        belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
        Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
        she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
        recently attempted suicide.

        To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
        Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
        childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
        was of the category of healing of memories.

        Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
        mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
        to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
        memory and healed of it.

        To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
        tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
        subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
        represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
        think the Bible refers to this as the veil.

        Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
        of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
        the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
        Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
        more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.

        Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
        water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
        up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
        lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
        renovation has not occurred.

        Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
        these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
        that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
        conscious) self.

        So, just so we are completely clear on this.

        I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
        Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
        Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
        THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)

        That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
        fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
        deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
        that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
        pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
        way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.

        This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
        truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
        possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
        and so one.

        This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
        position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
        trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
        this person is on a pity trip.

        To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
        as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.

        In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
        categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
        to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
        akin to calling white black.




        Tony
        --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
        <debbie@...> wrote:
        >
        > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
        the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
        parents'/grandparents' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
        albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
        were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
        own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
        boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
        to find the middle ground.
        >
        > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
        informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
        definitely DO need more relational closeness.
        >
        > Debbie
        >
        > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
        wrote:
        > >
        > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
        Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
        apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
        For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
        and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
        carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
        you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
        his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
        > >
        > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
        when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
        shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
        behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
        matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
        abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
        affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
        beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
        trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
        young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
        was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
        > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
        wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
        > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
        > > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
        > >
        > >
        > > Â
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hey group,
        > >
        > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
        > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
        and battle scars?
        > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
        well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
        not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
        I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
        things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
        it in my heart.
        > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
        him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
        stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
        on.
        > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
        > > Everybody was molested.
        > > Everybody was abused.
        > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
        > > When is it going to stop?
        > > No, my father was not there.
        > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
        > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
        like?
        > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
        been like?
        > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
        plan of God for our lives.
        > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
        the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
        it and use it for HIS glory.
        > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
        to deter us from reaching God.
        > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
        soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
        > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
        father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
        forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
        > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
        > >
        > > Les
        > >
        > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
        fashions."
        > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
        > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
        > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
        > >
        > > Â
        > > Hi Debbie,
        > >
        > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
        Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
        especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
        and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
        forgive.
        > >
        > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
        with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
        Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
        saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
        > >
        > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
        rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
        > >
        > > So, it's pretty raw.
        > >
        > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
        her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
        hearing she might not make it.
        > >
        > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
        to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
        the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
        and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
        > >
        > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
        graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
        > >
        > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
        dad. He said five years.
        > >
        > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
        > >
        > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
        capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
        > >
        > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
        lessen some.
        > >
        > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
        of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
        amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
        > >
        > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
        bit to crack this hard nut.
        > >
        > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
        > >
        > > Tony
        > >
        > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
        <debbie@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
        post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
        you, as well as for others.
        > > >
        > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
        has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
        and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
        those tendencies.
        > > >
        > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
        everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
        > > >
        > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
        because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
        experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
        pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
        college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
        was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
        He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
        like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
        have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
        meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
        > > >
        > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
        the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
        us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
        undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
        found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
        talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
        more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
        be at times.
        > > >
        > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
        given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
        It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
        commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
        > > >
        > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
        That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
        the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
        the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
        come without that.
        > > >
        > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
        same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
        lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
        Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
        we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
        freedom. Amen?
        > > >
        > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
        can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
        wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
        waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
        said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
        and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
        assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
        apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
        > > >
        > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
        Just think of me as a sister.
        > > >
        > > > Best,
        > > >
        > > > Debbie
        > > >
        > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
        <tonyb0505@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
        and to support each other, almost daily.
        > > > >
        > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
        impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
        and hopelessness.
        > > > >
        > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
        > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
        > > > >
        > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
        again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
        > > > >
        > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
        above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
        like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
        You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
        qualities.
        > > > >
        > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
        (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
        "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
        > > > >
        > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
        a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
        totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
        actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
        see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
        bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
        > > > >
        > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
        without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't know....
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Tony
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
        <debbie@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
        your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
        or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
        explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
        drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
        over.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
        relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
        guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
        fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
        also had to grow through that realization.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
        have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
        was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
        divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
        Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
        locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
        because I reached out, as you did.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
        the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
        true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
        perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
        "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Best,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Debbie
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
        <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
        help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
        counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
        more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
        unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
        become of better father to little Paul.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
        better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
        examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
        was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
        with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
        I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
        was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
        hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
        he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
        bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
        parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
        crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
        think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
        crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
        green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
        me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
        and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
        how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
        something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
        cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
        around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
        > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
        times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
        much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
        don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
        my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
        was too small.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
        that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
        gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
        deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
        week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
        happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
        the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
        our selves up to him!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Your brother,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Paul
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
        _________ _
        > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
        protection.
        > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thom Hunter
        Tony,   While I can see some merit in the argument being made that our world has so embraced the self that we do tend to over-emotionalize our conditions, I
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Tony,
           
          While I can see some merit in the argument being made that our world has so embraced the self that we do tend to over-emotionalize our conditions, I also understand that that becomes a reality that we have to deal with.  I know that as I confronted my SSA issues, I also had to confront what I at least perceived to be the causes.  I could not just wish them away; they did have to be confronted and analyzed and dis-armed.  It was two-fold effort.  Primarily it meant sacrificing that self to Christ.  However, it is hard to set down something you are wanting to understand without putting it through some close examination.  So, I did see a therapist and he helped me address the issues that were holding way too much sway in my life.  To me, that does not conflict with walking it out as a Christian. 
           
          I did not want to leave things buried inside and just build around them; I wanted them out.  I wanted to give them to Christ, but I wanted to see clearly what I was giving up.
           
          I don't consider myself one who is drowing in the emotions of my situation, though I do try to express the pain of change and deliverance in a realistic way.  Yes, redemption is joyful, but it also pulls us away from things we once thought were inegral to our being.  Mistaken thoughts, but strong ones.
           
          I can tell you it is possible, because all things are, with God.  But, I can also tell you we need to engage in the process if we are to embrace the progress.
           
          Thom
          http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

          --- On Mon, 3/22/10, Anthony <tonyb0505@...> wrote:


          From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
          Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
          To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 9:20 AM


           




          This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
          personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
          Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
          does believe.

          First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
          topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
          which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
          had by some visitation with past pain.

          I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
          their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
          Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
          arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.

          My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
          belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
          Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
          she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
          recently attempted suicide.

          To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
          Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
          childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
          was of the category of healing of memories.

          Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
          mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
          to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
          memory and healed of it.

          To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
          tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
          subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
          represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
          think the Bible refers to this as the veil.

          Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
          of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
          the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
          Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
          more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.

          Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
          water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
          up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
          lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
          renovation has not occurred.

          Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
          these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
          that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
          conscious) self.

          So, just so we are completely clear on this.

          I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
          Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
          Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
          THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)

          That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
          fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
          deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
          that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
          pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
          way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.

          This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
          truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
          possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
          and so one.

          This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
          position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
          trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
          this person is on a pity trip.

          To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
          as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.

          In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
          categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
          to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
          akin to calling white black.

          Tony
          --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
          <debbie@...> wrote:
          >
          > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
          the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
          parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
          albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
          were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
          own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
          boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
          to find the middle ground.
          >
          > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
          informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
          definitely DO need more relational closeness.
          >
          > Debbie
          >
          > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
          wrote:
          > >
          > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
          Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
          apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
          For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
          and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
          carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
          you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
          his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
          > >
          > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
          when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
          shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
          behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
          matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
          abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
          affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
          beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
          trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
          young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
          was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
          > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
          wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
          > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
          > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
          > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
          > >
          > >
          > > Â
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hey group,
          > >
          > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
          > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
          and battle scars?
          > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
          well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
          not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
          I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
          things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
          it in my heart.
          > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
          him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
          stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
          on.
          > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
          > > Everybody was molested.
          > > Everybody was abused.
          > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
          > > When is it going to stop?
          > > No, my father was not there.
          > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
          > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
          like?
          > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
          been like?
          > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
          plan of God for our lives.
          > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
          the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
          it and use it for HIS glory.
          > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
          to deter us from reaching God.
          > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
          soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
          > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
          father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
          forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
          > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
          > >
          > > Les
          > >
          > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
          fashions."
          > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
          > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
          > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
          > >
          > > Â
          > > Hi Debbie,
          > >
          > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
          Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
          especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
          and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
          forgive.
          > >
          > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
          with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
          Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
          saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
          > >
          > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
          rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
          > >
          > > So, it's pretty raw.
          > >
          > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
          her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
          hearing she might not make it.
          > >
          > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
          to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
          the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
          and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
          > >
          > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
          graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
          > >
          > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
          dad. He said five years.
          > >
          > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
          > >
          > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
          capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
          > >
          > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
          lessen some.
          > >
          > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
          of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
          amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
          > >
          > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
          bit to crack this hard nut.
          > >
          > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
          > >
          > > Tony
          > >
          > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
          <debbie@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
          post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
          you, as well as for others.
          > > >
          > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
          has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
          and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
          those tendencies.
          > > >
          > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
          everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
          > > >
          > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
          because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
          experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
          pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
          college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
          was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
          He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
          like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
          have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
          meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
          > > >
          > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
          the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
          us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
          undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
          found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
          talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
          more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
          be at times.
          > > >
          > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
          given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
          It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
          commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
          > > >
          > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
          That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
          the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
          the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
          come without that.
          > > >
          > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
          same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
          lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
          Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
          we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
          freedom. Amen?
          > > >
          > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
          can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
          wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
          waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
          said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
          and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
          assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
          apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
          > > >
          > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
          Just think of me as a sister.
          > > >
          > > > Best,
          > > >
          > > > Debbie
          > > >
          > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
          <tonyb0505@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
          and to support each other, almost daily.
          > > > >
          > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
          impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
          and hopelessness.
          > > > >
          > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
          > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
          > > > >
          > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
          again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
          > > > >
          > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
          above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
          like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
          You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
          qualities.
          > > > >
          > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
          (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
          "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
          > > > >
          > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
          a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
          totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
          actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
          see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
          bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
          > > > >
          > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
          without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
          > > > >
          > > > > I don't know....
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Tony
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
          <debbie@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
          your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
          or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
          explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
          drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
          over.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
          relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
          guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
          fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
          also had to grow through that realization.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
          have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
          was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
          divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
          Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
          locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
          because I reached out, as you did.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
          the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
          true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
          perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
          "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Best,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Debbie
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
          <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
          help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
          counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
          more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
          unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
          become of better father to little Paul.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
          better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
          examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
          was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
          with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
          I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
          was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
          hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
          he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
          bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
          parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
          crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
          think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
          crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
          green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
          me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
          and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
          how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
          something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
          cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
          around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
          > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
          times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
          much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
          don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
          my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
          was too small.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
          that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
          gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
          deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
          week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
          happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
          the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
          our selves up to him!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Your brother,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Paul
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
          _________ _
          > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
          protection.
          > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • DebbieThurman
          Thanks for weighing in, Tony — especially since it was your original comment in light of Paul G s parental bonding process that got this discussion moving to
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for weighing in, Tony — especially since it was your original comment in light of Paul G's parental bonding process that got this discussion moving to a deeper level.

            I think you are making your view clear. Here's the crux of it, for me: "If I am right Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable." Indeed, I don't think reconciliation is a rational concept. Faith based on the person of Jesus Christ (for those of us who so believe) is irrational, from a human point of view. For me, it was precisely that kind of faith that helped me get over the transom of misunderstanding about where my SSA may have come from and why I was experiencing it. I didn't have to connect all the dots to find healing, but I connected enough of them.

            Human help via a godly counselor, who had overcome a long and significant struggle with SSA herself, and some wise pastoral counsel were an integral part of the process for me. My counselor gave me a copy of "The Broken Image." It was deep yet quite helpful for me.

            Of course, reconciliation requires the active participation of the two entities involved. Since we cannot control what the other half will do, we may not get to experience full reconciliation. But forgiveness is up to us. We can control that. As God forgave us, we can forgive others. And with that comes much release. If there is any value to what Les and Paul S. are saying, perhaps it is in that realization, if that is what either of them believes.

            Of course, "white-knuckling it," as Tony says, is never going to get us to where we need to be. That can be repression of an unhealthy sort. And I am not talking about a kind of repression that is a subduing of unwanted desires. That's self-discipline.

            I appreciate what you have shared here, Tony.

            Debbie

            --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <tonyb0505@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
            > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
            > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
            > does believe.
            >
            > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
            > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
            > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
            > had by some visitation with past pain.
            >
            > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
            > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
            > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
            > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
            >
            > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
            > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
            > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
            > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
            > recently attempted suicide.
            >
            > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
            > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
            > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
            > was of the category of healing of memories.
            >
            > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
            > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
            > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
            > memory and healed of it.
            >
            > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
            > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
            > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
            > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
            > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
            >
            > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
            > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
            > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
            > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
            > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
            >
            > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
            > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
            > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
            > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
            > renovation has not occurred.
            >
            > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
            > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
            > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
            > conscious) self.
            >
            > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
            >
            > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
            > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
            > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
            > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
            >
            > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
            > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
            > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
            > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
            > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
            > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
            >
            > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
            > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
            > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
            > and so one.
            >
            > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
            > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
            > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
            > this person is on a pity trip.
            >
            > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
            > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
            >
            > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
            > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
            > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
            > akin to calling white black.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Tony
            > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
            > <debbie@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
            > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
            > parents'/grandparents' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
            > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
            > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
            > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
            > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
            > to find the middle ground.
            > >
            > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
            > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
            > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
            > >
            > > Debbie
            > >
            > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
            > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
            > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
            > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
            > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
            > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
            > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
            > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
            > > >
            > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
            > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
            > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
            > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
            > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
            > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
            > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
            > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
            > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
            > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
            > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
            > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
            > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
            > > > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Â
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hey group,
            > > >
            > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
            > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
            > and battle scars?
            > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
            > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
            > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
            > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
            > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
            > it in my heart.
            > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
            > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
            > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
            > on.
            > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
            > > > Everybody was molested.
            > > > Everybody was abused.
            > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
            > > > When is it going to stop?
            > > > No, my father was not there.
            > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
            > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
            > like?
            > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
            > been like?
            > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
            > plan of God for our lives.
            > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
            > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
            > it and use it for HIS glory.
            > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
            > to deter us from reaching God.
            > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
            > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
            > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
            > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
            > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
            > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
            > > >
            > > > Les
            > > >
            > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
            > fashions."
            > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
            > > >
            > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
            > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
            > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
            > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
            > > >
            > > > Â
            > > > Hi Debbie,
            > > >
            > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
            > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
            > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
            > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
            > forgive.
            > > >
            > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
            > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
            > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
            > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
            > > >
            > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
            > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
            > > >
            > > > So, it's pretty raw.
            > > >
            > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
            > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
            > hearing she might not make it.
            > > >
            > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
            > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
            > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
            > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
            > > >
            > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
            > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
            > > >
            > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
            > dad. He said five years.
            > > >
            > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
            > > >
            > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
            > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
            > > >
            > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
            > lessen some.
            > > >
            > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
            > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
            > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
            > > >
            > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
            > bit to crack this hard nut.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
            > > >
            > > > Tony
            > > >
            > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
            > <debbie@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
            > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
            > you, as well as for others.
            > > > >
            > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
            > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
            > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
            > those tendencies.
            > > > >
            > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
            > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
            > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
            > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
            > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
            > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
            > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
            > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
            > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
            > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
            > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
            > > > >
            > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
            > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
            > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
            > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
            > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
            > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
            > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
            > be at times.
            > > > >
            > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
            > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
            > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
            > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
            > > > >
            > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
            > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
            > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
            > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
            > come without that.
            > > > >
            > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
            > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
            > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
            > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
            > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
            > freedom. Amen?
            > > > >
            > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
            > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
            > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
            > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
            > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
            > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
            > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
            > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
            > > > >
            > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
            > Just think of me as a sister.
            > > > >
            > > > > Best,
            > > > >
            > > > > Debbie
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
            > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
            > and to support each other, almost daily.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
            > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
            > and hopelessness.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
            > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
            > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
            > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
            > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
            > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
            > qualities.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
            > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
            > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
            > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
            > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
            > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
            > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
            > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
            > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I don't know....
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Tony
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
            > <debbie@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
            > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
            > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
            > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
            > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
            > over.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
            > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
            > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
            > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
            > also had to grow through that realization.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
            > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
            > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
            > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
            > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
            > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
            > because I reached out, as you did.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
            > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
            > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
            > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
            > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Best,
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Debbie
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
            > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
            > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
            > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
            > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
            > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
            > become of better father to little Paul.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
            > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
            > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
            > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
            > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
            > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
            > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
            > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
            > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
            > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
            > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
            > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
            > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
            > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
            > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
            > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
            > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
            > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
            > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
            > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
            > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
            > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
            > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
            > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
            > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
            > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
            > was too small.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
            > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
            > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
            > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
            > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
            > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
            > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
            > our selves up to him!
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Your brother,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Paul
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
            > _________ _
            > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
            > protection.
            > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Anthony
            Hi Debbie, Just to be clear, I want to elaborate on what I meant by the phrase, reconciliation is impossible. I was referring to trying to reconcile Les s
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Debbie,
              Just to be clear, I want to elaborate on what I meant by the phrase,
              "reconciliation is impossible." I was referring to trying to reconcile
              Les's belief with my own, I was not referring to reconciliation with God
              or any such thing.
              Now, the following is more a nit. As to irrational, I believe the
              entirety of God's ways and His plan for us is rational. It may seem
              irrational, but not because it is not rational, only because we see
              through a glass darkly.
              Thanks, Debbie, as always.

              Your brother,
              Tony


              --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
              <debbie@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for weighing in, Tony — especially since it was your
              original comment in light of Paul G's parental bonding process that got
              this discussion moving to a deeper level.
              >
              > I think you are making your view clear. Here's the crux of it, for me:
              "If I am right Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable."
              Indeed, I don't think reconciliation is a rational concept. Faith based
              on the person of Jesus Christ (for those of us who so believe) is
              irrational, from a human point of view. For me, it was precisely that
              kind of faith that helped me get over the transom of misunderstanding
              about where my SSA may have come from and why I was experiencing it. I
              didn't have to connect all the dots to find healing, but I connected
              enough of them.
              >
              > Human help via a godly counselor, who had overcome a long and
              significant struggle with SSA herself, and some wise pastoral counsel
              were an integral part of the process for me. My counselor gave me a copy
              of "The Broken Image." It was deep yet quite helpful for me.
              >
              > Of course, reconciliation requires the active participation of the two
              entities involved. Since we cannot control what the other half will do,
              we may not get to experience full reconciliation. But forgiveness is up
              to us. We can control that. As God forgave us, we can forgive others.
              And with that comes much release. If there is any value to what Les and
              Paul S. are saying, perhaps it is in that realization, if that is what
              either of them believes.
              >
              > Of course, "white-knuckling it," as Tony says, is never going to get
              us to where we need to be. That can be repression of an unhealthy sort.
              And I am not talking about a kind of repression that is a subduing of
              unwanted desires. That's self-discipline.
              >
              > I appreciate what you have shared here, Tony.
              >
              > Debbie
              >
              > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" tonyb0505@
              wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
              > > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone
              else.
              > > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or
              she
              > > does believe.
              > >
              > > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding
              this
              > > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on
              falsehood,
              > > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
              > > had by some visitation with past pain.
              > >
              > > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part
              of
              > > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am
              right
              > > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
              > > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
              > >
              > > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports
              MY
              > > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
              > > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian
              and
              > > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
              > > recently attempted suicide.
              > >
              > > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
              > > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her
              early
              > > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her
              SSA
              > > was of the category of healing of memories.
              > >
              > > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
              > > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her
              mother
              > > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through
              the
              > > memory and healed of it.
              > >
              > > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
              > > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
              > > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
              > > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
              > > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
              > >
              > > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is
              composed
              > > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional
              pain,
              > > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the
              water.
              > > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma.
              The
              > > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
              > >
              > > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under
              the
              > > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are
              dredged
              > > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
              > > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
              > > renovation has not occurred.
              > >
              > > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.
              For
              > > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple
              reason
              > > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
              > > conscious) self.
              > >
              > > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
              > >
              > > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this
              matter.
              > > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les
              or
              > > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not
              fine
              > > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
              > >
              > > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
              > > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
              > > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to
              Lisa
              > > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought
              not
              > > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in
              some
              > > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity
              trip.
              > >
              > > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when
              in
              > > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is
              only
              > > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is
              black,
              > > and so one.
              > >
              > > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to.
              The
              > > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
              > > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
              > > this person is on a pity trip.
              > >
              > > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people
              and
              > > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
              > >
              > > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
              > > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a
              pathway
              > > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
              > > akin to calling white black.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Tony
              > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
              > > <debbie@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging
              in
              > > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
              > > parents'/grandparents' generation was somewhat emotionally
              repressed,
              > > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation
              (Boomers)
              > > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought
              its
              > > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
              > > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are
              trying
              > > to find the middle ground.
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
              > > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
              > > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
              > > >
              > > > Debbie
              > > >
              > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
              > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way
              overboard.
              > > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
              > > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than
              others.
              > > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind
              you
              > > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
              > > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will
              play on
              > > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus
              conquered
              > > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
              > > > >
              > > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
              > > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons
              and
              > > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man
              lurking
              > > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of
              the
              > > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are
              stranger
              > > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind
              of
              > > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
              > > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
              > > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a
              generation of
              > > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than
              it
              > > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
              > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr.
              secondchronicles7.14life@
              > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
              > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
              > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Â
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hey group,
              > > > >
              > > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
              > > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ
              wounds
              > > and battle scars?
              > > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood
              as
              > > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother
              was
              > > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of
              what
              > > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very
              hurtful
              > > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not
              holding
              > > it in my heart.
              > > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
              > > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but
              when I
              > > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and
              moved
              > > on.
              > > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional"
              touch.
              > > > > Everybody was molested.
              > > > > Everybody was abused.
              > > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ
              way.
              > > > > When is it going to stop?
              > > > > No, my father was not there.
              > > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
              > > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
              > > like?
              > > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life
              had
              > > been like?
              > > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about
              the
              > > plan of God for our lives.
              > > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means
              even
              > > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will
              take
              > > it and use it for HIS glory.
              > > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the
              enemy
              > > to deter us from reaching God.
              > > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
              > > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
              > > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with
              his
              > > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds-
              move
              > > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the
              hurts.
              > > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
              > > > >
              > > > > Les
              > > > >
              > > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this
              year's
              > > fashions."
              > > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
              > > > >
              > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
              > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
              > > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
              > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
              > > > >
              > > > > Â
              > > > > Hi Debbie,
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called
              The
              > > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand
              themselves,
              > > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness
              portion
              > > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have
              anyone to
              > > forgive.
              > > > >
              > > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
              > > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to
              forgive?).
              > > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i
              meant,
              > > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
              > > > >
              > > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the
              buried
              > > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
              > > > >
              > > > > So, it's pretty raw.
              > > > >
              > > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he
              left
              > > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I
              keep
              > > hearing she might not make it.
              > > > >
              > > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided
              not
              > > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,
              not
              > > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's
              graduation
              > > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
              > > > >
              > > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a
              HS
              > > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a
              cruise.
              > > > >
              > > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew
              her
              > > dad. He said five years.
              > > > >
              > > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
              > > > >
              > > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
              > > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional
              love.
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
              > > lessen some.
              > > > >
              > > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate
              sense
              > > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a
              fair
              > > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
              > > > >
              > > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take
              a
              > > bit to crack this hard nut.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
              > > > >
              > > > > Tony
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
              > > <debbie@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to
              your
              > > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful
              for
              > > you, as well as for others.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area
              that
              > > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow,
              anger
              > > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all
              have
              > > those tendencies.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died
              for
              > > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to
              you.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
              > > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
              > > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my
              own
              > > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to
              my
              > > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a
              beginning. He
              > > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life
              then.
              > > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
              > > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and
              I
              > > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
              > > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love
              â€"
              > > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all
              of
              > > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
              > > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
              > > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
              > > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It
              gives me
              > > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I
              must
              > > be at times.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has
              been
              > > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves
              it.
              > > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
              > > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian
              platitudes.
              > > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source
              â€"
              > > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect
              with
              > > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply
              cannot
              > > come without that.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
              > > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we
              have
              > > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this
              life.
              > > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or
              contrary,
              > > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us
              that
              > > freedom. Amen?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His
              lap, we
              > > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
              > > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He
              is
              > > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He
              has
              > > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his
              neck
              > > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
              > > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
              > > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for
              you.
              > > Just think of me as a sister.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Best,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Debbie
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
              > > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as
              friends
              > > and to support each other, almost daily.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
              > > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of
              depression
              > > and hopelessness.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
              > > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to
              contact
              > > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love
              from
              > > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I
              feel
              > > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a
              sidewalk.
              > > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
              > > qualities.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most
              part
              > > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me
              to be
              > > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father
              or
              > > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it
              seems
              > > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
              > > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other
              hand,
              > > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it
              as
              > > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
              > > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I don't know....
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Tony
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com,
              "DebbieThurman"
              > > <debbie@> wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey
              with
              > > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a
              confusing
              > > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a
              simple
              > > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have
              less
              > > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over
              and
              > > over.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right
              now in
              > > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
              > > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
              > > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) .
              I
              > > also had to grow through that realization.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
              > > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us
              siblings
              > > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
              > > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
              > > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
              > > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that
              happened
              > > because I reached out, as you did.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can
              open
              > > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
              > > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say
              hello,"
              > > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
              > > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Best,
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Debbie
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul
              Gaetani
              > > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
              > > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a
              professional
              > > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to
              be
              > > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand
              what
              > > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect,
              to
              > > become of better father to little Paul.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
              > > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
              > > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened
              when I
              > > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his
              recliner
              > > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved
              it.
              > > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime
              when I
              > > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as
              a
              > > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved
              me.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to
              reveal
              > > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a
              little
              > > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
              > > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do
              some
              > > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
              > > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself
              start
              > > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in
              the
              > > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't
              love
              > > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved
              me,
              > > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers
              about
              > > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
              > > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
              > > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
              > > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
              > > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few
              more
              > > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she
              witnessed
              > > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We
              still
              > > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is
              because
              > > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new
              furniture
              > > was too small.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say
              is
              > > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life
              that
              > > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
              > > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor
              last
              > > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
              > > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can
              comprehend
              > > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and
              open
              > > our selves up to him!
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Your brother,
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Paul
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
              > > _________ _
              > > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
              > > protection.
              > > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anthony
              Hi Thom, Yeah, I see merit in that argument as well, BUT, if my long post is accurate, this is not at all what Les was saying anyway (and they certainly can
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Thom,

                Yeah, I see merit in that argument as well, BUT, if my long post is accurate, this is not at all what Les was saying anyway (and they certainly can correct me if I am wrong).

                Now, IF there is too much "emotionalizing going on," when the post was made, Let's realize the post was directed to ME.

                How was this known? A dream in the night? A vision, perhaps? Was it a judgment call.

                To this I only have three things.


                One
                I am not big on judging (assigning motive), unless it is abundantly clear.

                Two
                Paul and I are really good friends. We are trying to support each other and we talk almost daily. Paul would tell you that I tend to minimize my personal situation -and- that i am bigtime shutdown and so one of the things I most need is to get in touch with my feelings. I shut down a long time ago.

                Three
                Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all things and who can know it. So, certainly, my motivations and my present path could include non-constructive elements (overly self-pitying, over-emotionalizing, too much looking to self, etc.)?

                Who knows? I know that God knows and that's pretty much all I know on that matter.


                Take Care, Brother,

                Tony


                --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tony,
                >  
                > While I can see some merit in the argument being made that our world has so embraced the self that we do tend to over-emotionalize our conditions, I also understand that that becomes a reality that we have to deal with.  I know that as I confronted my SSA issues, I also had to confront what I at least perceived to be the causes.  I could not just wish them away; they did have to be confronted and analyzed and dis-armed.  It was two-fold effort.  Primarily it meant sacrificing that self to Christ.  However, it is hard to set down something you are wanting to understand without putting it through some close examination.  So, I did see a therapist and he helped me address the issues that were holding way too much sway in my life.  To me, that does not conflict with walking it out as a Christian. 
                >  
                > I did not want to leave things buried inside and just build around them; I wanted them out.  I wanted to give them to Christ, but I wanted to see clearly what I was giving up.
                >  
                > I don't consider myself one who is drowing in the emotions of my situation, though I do try to express the pain of change and deliverance in a realistic way.  Yes, redemption is joyful, but it also pulls us away from things we once thought were inegral to our being.  Mistaken thoughts, but strong ones.
                >  
                > I can tell you it is possible, because all things are, with God.  But, I can also tell you we need to engage in the process if we are to embrace the progress.
                >  
                > Thom
                > http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
                >
                > --- On Mon, 3/22/10, Anthony <tonyb0505@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
                > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 9:20 AM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                > does believe.
                >
                > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                > had by some visitation with past pain.
                >
                > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                >
                > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                > recently attempted suicide.
                >
                > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                > was of the category of healing of memories.
                >
                > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                > memory and healed of it.
                >
                > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                >
                > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                >
                > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                > renovation has not occurred.
                >
                > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                > conscious) self.
                >
                > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                >
                > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                >
                > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
                >
                > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                > and so one.
                >
                > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                > this person is on a pity trip.
                >
                > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                >
                > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                > akin to calling white black.
                >
                > Tony
                > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                > <debbie@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                > to find the middle ground.
                > >
                > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                > >
                > > Debbie
                > >
                > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                > > >
                > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Â
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hey group,
                > > >
                > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                > and battle scars?
                > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                > it in my heart.
                > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                > on.
                > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                > > > Everybody was molested.
                > > > Everybody was abused.
                > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                > > > When is it going to stop?
                > > > No, my father was not there.
                > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                > like?
                > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                > been like?
                > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                > plan of God for our lives.
                > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                > it and use it for HIS glory.
                > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                > to deter us from reaching God.
                > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                > > >
                > > > Les
                > > >
                > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                > fashions."
                > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                > > >
                > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                > > >
                > > > Â
                > > > Hi Debbie,
                > > >
                > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                > forgive.
                > > >
                > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                > > >
                > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                > > >
                > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                > > >
                > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                > hearing she might not make it.
                > > >
                > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                > > >
                > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                > > >
                > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                > dad. He said five years.
                > > >
                > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                > > >
                > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                > > >
                > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                > lessen some.
                > > >
                > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                > > >
                > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                > bit to crack this hard nut.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                > > >
                > > > Tony
                > > >
                > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                > <debbie@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                > you, as well as for others.
                > > > >
                > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                > those tendencies.
                > > > >
                > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                > > > >
                > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                > > > >
                > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                > be at times.
                > > > >
                > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                > > > >
                > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                > come without that.
                > > > >
                > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                > freedom. Amen?
                > > > >
                > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                > > > >
                > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                > Just think of me as a sister.
                > > > >
                > > > > Best,
                > > > >
                > > > > Debbie
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                > and to support each other, almost daily.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                > and hopelessness.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                > qualities.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I don't know....
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Tony
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                > <debbie@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                > over.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                > also had to grow through that realization.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                > because I reached out, as you did.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Best,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Debbie
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                > become of better father to little Paul.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                > was too small.
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                > our selves up to him!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Your brother,
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Paul
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                > _________ _
                > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                > protection.
                > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Thom Hunter
                Tony,   Thanks for the reply.  I think what is significant here is that you are genuinely seeking and searching and you are aware that God is aware and in
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tony,
                   
                  Thanks for the reply.  I think what is significant here is that you are genuinely seeking and searching and you are aware that God is aware and in touch with you and your needs.  On top of that, you have a loving friend who is walking with you and apparently cares very deeply for you, which is a great blessing and a longing that many people have. 
                   
                  I'm not big on judging either, particularly when it is obvious someone is seeking the Lord.  We all fumble in that attempt, but He is extremely gracious.
                   
                  God Bless,
                   
                  Thom
                  http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

                  --- On Mon, 3/22/10, Anthony <tonyb0505@...> wrote:


                  From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
                  Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                  To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 10:25 AM


                   



                  Hi Thom,

                  Yeah, I see merit in that argument as well, BUT, if my long post is accurate, this is not at all what Les was saying anyway (and they certainly can correct me if I am wrong).

                  Now, IF there is too much "emotionalizing going on," when the post was made, Let's realize the post was directed to ME.

                  How was this known? A dream in the night? A vision, perhaps? Was it a judgment call.

                  To this I only have three things.

                  One
                  I am not big on judging (assigning motive), unless it is abundantly clear.

                  Two
                  Paul and I are really good friends. We are trying to support each other and we talk almost daily. Paul would tell you that I tend to minimize my personal situation -and- that i am bigtime shutdown and so one of the things I most need is to get in touch with my feelings. I shut down a long time ago.

                  Three
                  Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all things and who can know it. So, certainly, my motivations and my present path could include non-constructive elements (overly self-pitying, over-emotionalizing , too much looking to self, etc.)?

                  Who knows? I know that God knows and that's pretty much all I know on that matter.

                  Take Care, Brother,

                  Tony

                  --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tony,
                  >  
                  > While I can see some merit in the argument being made that our world has so embraced the self that we do tend to over-emotionalize our conditions, I also understand that that becomes a reality that we have to deal with.  I know that as I confronted my SSA issues, I also had to confront what I at least perceived to be the causes.  I could not just wish them away; they did have to be confronted and analyzed and dis-armed.  It was two-fold effort.  Primarily it meant sacrificing that self to Christ.  However, it is hard to set down something you are wanting to understand without putting it through some close examination.  So, I did see a therapist and he helped me address the issues that were holding way too much sway in my life.  To me, that does not conflict with walking it out as a Christian. 
                  >  
                  > I did not want to leave things buried inside and just build around them; I wanted them out.  I wanted to give them to Christ, but I wanted to see clearly what I was giving up.
                  >  
                  > I don't consider myself one who is drowing in the emotions of my situation, though I do try to express the pain of change and deliverance in a realistic way.  Yes, redemption is joyful, but it also pulls us away from things we once thought were inegral to our being.  Mistaken thoughts, but strong ones.
                  >  
                  > I can tell you it is possible, because all things are, with God.  But, I can also tell you we need to engage in the process if we are to embrace the progress.
                  >  
                  > Thom
                  > http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 3/22/10, Anthony <tonyb0505@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@. ..>
                  > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                  > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 9:20 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                  > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                  > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                  > does believe.
                  >
                  > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                  > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                  > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                  > had by some visitation with past pain.
                  >
                  > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                  > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                  > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                  > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                  >
                  > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                  > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                  > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                  > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                  > recently attempted suicide.
                  >
                  > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                  > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                  > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                  > was of the category of healing of memories.
                  >
                  > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                  > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                  > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                  > memory and healed of it.
                  >
                  > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                  > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                  > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                  > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                  > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                  >
                  > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                  > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                  > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                  > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                  > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                  >
                  > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                  > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                  > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                  > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                  > renovation has not occurred.
                  >
                  > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                  > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                  > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                  > conscious) self.
                  >
                  > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                  >
                  > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                  > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                  > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                  > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                  >
                  > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                  > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                  > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                  > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                  > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                  > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
                  >
                  > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                  > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                  > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                  > and so one.
                  >
                  > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                  > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                  > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                  > this person is on a pity trip.
                  >
                  > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                  > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                  >
                  > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                  > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                  > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                  > akin to calling white black.
                  >
                  > Tony
                  > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                  > <debbie@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                  > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                  > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                  > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                  > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                  > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                  > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                  > to find the middle ground.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                  > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                  > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                  > >
                  > > Debbie
                  > >
                  > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                  > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                  > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                  > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                  > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                  > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                  > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                  > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                  > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                  > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                  > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                  > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                  > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                  > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                  > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                  > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                  > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                  > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                  > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                  > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                  > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                  > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Â
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hey group,
                  > > >
                  > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                  > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                  > and battle scars?
                  > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                  > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                  > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                  > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                  > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                  > it in my heart.
                  > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                  > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                  > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                  > on.
                  > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                  > > > Everybody was molested.
                  > > > Everybody was abused.
                  > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                  > > > When is it going to stop?
                  > > > No, my father was not there.
                  > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                  > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                  > like?
                  > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                  > been like?
                  > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                  > plan of God for our lives.
                  > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                  > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                  > it and use it for HIS glory.
                  > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                  > to deter us from reaching God.
                  > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                  > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                  > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                  > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                  > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                  > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                  > > >
                  > > > Les
                  > > >
                  > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                  > fashions."
                  > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                  > > >
                  > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                  > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                  > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                  > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                  > > >
                  > > > Â
                  > > > Hi Debbie,
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                  > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                  > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                  > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                  > forgive.
                  > > >
                  > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                  > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                  > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                  > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                  > > >
                  > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                  > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                  > > >
                  > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                  > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                  > hearing she might not make it.
                  > > >
                  > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                  > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                  > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                  > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                  > > >
                  > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                  > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                  > > >
                  > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                  > dad. He said five years.
                  > > >
                  > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                  > > >
                  > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                  > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                  > lessen some.
                  > > >
                  > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                  > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                  > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                  > > >
                  > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                  > bit to crack this hard nut.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                  > > >
                  > > > Tony
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                  > <debbie@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                  > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                  > you, as well as for others.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                  > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                  > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                  > those tendencies.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                  > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                  > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                  > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                  > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                  > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                  > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                  > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                  > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                  > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                  > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                  > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                  > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                  > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                  > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                  > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                  > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                  > be at times.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                  > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                  > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                  > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                  > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                  > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                  > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                  > come without that.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                  > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                  > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                  > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                  > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                  > freedom. Amen?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                  > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                  > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                  > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                  > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                  > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                  > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                  > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                  > Just think of me as a sister.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Best,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Debbie
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                  > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                  > and to support each other, almost daily.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                  > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                  > and hopelessness.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                  > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                  > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                  > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                  > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                  > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                  > qualities.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                  > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                  > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                  > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                  > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                  > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                  > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                  > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                  > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I don't know....
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Tony
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                  > <debbie@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                  > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                  > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                  > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                  > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                  > over.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                  > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                  > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                  > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                  > also had to grow through that realization.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                  > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                  > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                  > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                  > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                  > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                  > because I reached out, as you did.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                  > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                  > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                  > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                  > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Best,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Debbie
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                  > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                  > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                  > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                  > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                  > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                  > become of better father to little Paul.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                  > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                  > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                  > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                  > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                  > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                  > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                  > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                  > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                  > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                  > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                  > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                  > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                  > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                  > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                  > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                  > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                  > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                  > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                  > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                  > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                  > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                  > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                  > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                  > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                  > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                  > was too small.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                  > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                  > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                  > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                  > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                  > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                  > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                  > our selves up to him!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Your brother,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Paul
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                  > _________ _
                  > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                  > protection.
                  > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lester Demings Jr.
                  Anthony, I honestly didn t understand all that you posted so I will do my best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted. In no way am I
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Anthony,

                    I honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                    In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                    However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to make me whole again.
                    My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he was found dead.
                    Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love and care for his children?
                    What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt from years ago?
                    I could have not went to the funeral.
                    I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my mother, my family and myself.
                    I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell out.
                    But what is all this going to do?
                    My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                    As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                    Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of his children in the process?
                    What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't need to marry him?
                    Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                    Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the world what he did?
                    He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                    Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect as pertains to the Word of God.
                    Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to reconcile and get my life together?
                    I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                    Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                    Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today, my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out money for her to have a good vacation.
                    When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright. People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                    Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and healing.
                    In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                    Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and that is a trick of the enemy.
                    Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                    Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what you are looking to gain.
                    However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                    Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.



                     "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                    Lillian Hellman, Playwright




                    ________________________________
                    From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
                    To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                    Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                     

                    This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                    personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                    Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                    does believe.

                    First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                    topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                    which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                    had by some visitation with past pain.

                    I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                    their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                    Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                    arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.

                    My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                    belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                    Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                    she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                    recently attempted suicide.

                    To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                    Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                    childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                    was of the category of healing of memories.

                    Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                    mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                    to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                    memory and healed of it.

                    To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                    tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                    subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                    represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                    think the Bible refers to this as the veil.

                    Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                    of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                    the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                    Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                    more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.

                    Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                    water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                    up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                    lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                    renovation has not occurred.

                    Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                    these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                    that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                    conscious) self.

                    So, just so we are completely clear on this.

                    I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                    Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                    Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                    THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)

                    That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                    fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                    deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                    that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                    pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                    way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.

                    This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                    truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                    possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                    and so one.

                    This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                    position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                    trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                    this person is on a pity trip.

                    To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                    as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.

                    In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                    categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                    to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                    akin to calling white black.

                    Tony
                    --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                    <debbie@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                    the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                    parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                    albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                    were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                    own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                    boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                    to find the middle ground.
                    >
                    > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                    informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                    definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                    >
                    > Debbie
                    >
                    > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                    Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                    apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                    For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                    and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                    carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                    you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                    his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                    > >
                    > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                    when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                    shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                    behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                    matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                    abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                    affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                    beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                    trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                    young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                    was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                    > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                    > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                    > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                    > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Â
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hey group,
                    > >
                    > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                    > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                    and battle scars?
                    > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                    well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                    not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                    I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                    things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                    it in my heart.
                    > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                    him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                    stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                    on.
                    > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                    > > Everybody was molested.
                    > > Everybody was abused.
                    > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                    > > When is it going to stop?
                    > > No, my father was not there.
                    > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                    > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                    like?
                    > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                    been like?
                    > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                    plan of God for our lives.
                    > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                    the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                    it and use it for HIS glory.
                    > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                    to deter us from reaching God.
                    > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                    soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                    > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                    father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                    forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                    > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                    > >
                    > > Les
                    > >
                    > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                    fashions."
                    > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                    > >
                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                    > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                    > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                    > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                    > >
                    > > Â
                    > > Hi Debbie,
                    > >
                    > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                    Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                    especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                    and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                    forgive.
                    > >
                    > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                    with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                    Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                    saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                    > >
                    > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                    rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                    > >
                    > > So, it's pretty raw.
                    > >
                    > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                    her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                    hearing she might not make it.
                    > >
                    > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                    to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                    the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                    and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                    > >
                    > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                    graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                    > >
                    > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                    dad. He said five years.
                    > >
                    > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                    > >
                    > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                    capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                    > >
                    > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                    lessen some.
                    > >
                    > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                    of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                    amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                    > >
                    > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                    bit to crack this hard nut.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                    > >
                    > > Tony
                    > >
                    > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                    <debbie@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                    post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                    you, as well as for others.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                    has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                    and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                    those tendencies.
                    > > >
                    > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                    everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                    > > >
                    > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                    because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                    experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                    pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                    college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                    was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                    He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                    like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                    have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                    meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                    > > >
                    > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                    the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                    us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                    undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                    found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                    talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                    more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                    be at times.
                    > > >
                    > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                    given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                    It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                    commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                    > > >
                    > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                    That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                    the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                    the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                    come without that.
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                    same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                    lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                    Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                    we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                    freedom. Amen?
                    > > >
                    > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                    can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                    wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                    waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                    said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                    and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                    assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                    apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                    > > >
                    > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                    Just think of me as a sister.
                    > > >
                    > > > Best,
                    > > >
                    > > > Debbie
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                    <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                    and to support each other, almost daily.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                    impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                    and hopelessness.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                    > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                    again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                    above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                    like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                    You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                    qualities.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                    (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                    "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                    a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                    totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                    actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                    see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                    bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                    without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't know....
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Tony
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                    <debbie@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                    your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                    or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                    explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                    drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                    over.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                    relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                    guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                    fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                    also had to grow through that realization.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                    have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                    was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                    divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                    Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                    locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                    because I reached out, as you did.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                    the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                    true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                    perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                    "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Best,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Debbie
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                    <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                    help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                    counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                    more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                    unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                    become of better father to little Paul.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                    better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                    examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                    was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                    with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                    I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                    was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                    hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                    he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                    bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                    parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                    crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                    think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                    crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                    green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                    me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                    and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                    how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                    something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                    cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                    around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                    > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                    times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                    much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                    don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                    my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                    was too small.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                    that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                    gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                    deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                    week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                    happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                    the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                    our selves up to him!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Your brother,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Paul
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                    _________ _
                    > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                    protection.
                    > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • DebbieThurman
                    We can get a tad bogged down in phraseology in these discussions, can t we? :) Such is the nature of the online school. Yes, opposing beliefs are by their
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      We can get a tad bogged down in phraseology in these discussions, can't we? :) Such is the nature of the online "school." Yes, opposing beliefs are by their very nature irreconcilable. Much in this world is not worthy of a reconciliation attempt or even a thought of such.

                      As for the rationality vs. irrationality of God and His ways — ah, now that could open a big philosophical and theological debate. And I don't want to go there. I prefer to keep it simple.

                      God is the author of all things, including rationality and reason. We created humans, who ever seek to recreate Him in our own image, are the irrational ones. We cannot recognize the rationality of what we cannot grasp in human terms, so we call it irrational. But faith is "the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

                      You are a man of great depth, Tony.

                      Your sis,

                      Debbie

                      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <tonyb0505@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Debbie,
                      > Just to be clear, I want to elaborate on what I meant by the phrase,
                      > "reconciliation is impossible." I was referring to trying to reconcile
                      > Les's belief with my own, I was not referring to reconciliation with God
                      > or any such thing.
                      > Now, the following is more a nit. As to irrational, I believe the
                      > entirety of God's ways and His plan for us is rational. It may seem
                      > irrational, but not because it is not rational, only because we see
                      > through a glass darkly.
                      > Thanks, Debbie, as always.
                      >
                      > Your brother,
                      > Tony
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
                      > <debbie@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for weighing in, Tony — especially since it was your
                      > original comment in light of Paul G's parental bonding process that got
                      > this discussion moving to a deeper level.
                      > >
                      > > I think you are making your view clear. Here's the crux of it, for me:
                      > "If I am right Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable."
                      > Indeed, I don't think reconciliation is a rational concept. Faith based
                      > on the person of Jesus Christ (for those of us who so believe) is
                      > irrational, from a human point of view. For me, it was precisely that
                      > kind of faith that helped me get over the transom of misunderstanding
                      > about where my SSA may have come from and why I was experiencing it. I
                      > didn't have to connect all the dots to find healing, but I connected
                      > enough of them.
                      > >
                      > > Human help via a godly counselor, who had overcome a long and
                      > significant struggle with SSA herself, and some wise pastoral counsel
                      > were an integral part of the process for me. My counselor gave me a copy
                      > of "The Broken Image." It was deep yet quite helpful for me.
                      > >
                      > > Of course, reconciliation requires the active participation of the two
                      > entities involved. Since we cannot control what the other half will do,
                      > we may not get to experience full reconciliation. But forgiveness is up
                      > to us. We can control that. As God forgave us, we can forgive others.
                      > And with that comes much release. If there is any value to what Les and
                      > Paul S. are saying, perhaps it is in that realization, if that is what
                      > either of them believes.
                      > >
                      > > Of course, "white-knuckling it," as Tony says, is never going to get
                      > us to where we need to be. That can be repression of an unhealthy sort.
                      > And I am not talking about a kind of repression that is a subduing of
                      > unwanted desires. That's self-discipline.
                      > >
                      > > I appreciate what you have shared here, Tony.
                      > >
                      > > Debbie
                      > >
                      > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" tonyb0505@
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                      > > > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone
                      > else.
                      > > > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or
                      > she
                      > > > does believe.
                      > > >
                      > > > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding
                      > this
                      > > > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on
                      > falsehood,
                      > > > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                      > > > had by some visitation with past pain.
                      > > >
                      > > > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part
                      > of
                      > > > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am
                      > right
                      > > > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                      > > > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                      > > >
                      > > > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports
                      > MY
                      > > > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                      > > > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian
                      > and
                      > > > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                      > > > recently attempted suicide.
                      > > >
                      > > > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                      > > > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her
                      > early
                      > > > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her
                      > SSA
                      > > > was of the category of healing of memories.
                      > > >
                      > > > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                      > > > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her
                      > mother
                      > > > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through
                      > the
                      > > > memory and healed of it.
                      > > >
                      > > > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                      > > > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                      > > > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                      > > > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                      > > > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                      > > >
                      > > > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is
                      > composed
                      > > > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional
                      > pain,
                      > > > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the
                      > water.
                      > > > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma.
                      > The
                      > > > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                      > > >
                      > > > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under
                      > the
                      > > > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are
                      > dredged
                      > > > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                      > > > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                      > > > renovation has not occurred.
                      > > >
                      > > > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.
                      > For
                      > > > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple
                      > reason
                      > > > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                      > > > conscious) self.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                      > > >
                      > > > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this
                      > matter.
                      > > > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les
                      > or
                      > > > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not
                      > fine
                      > > > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                      > > >
                      > > > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                      > > > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                      > > > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to
                      > Lisa
                      > > > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought
                      > not
                      > > > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in
                      > some
                      > > > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity
                      > trip.
                      > > >
                      > > > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when
                      > in
                      > > > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is
                      > only
                      > > > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is
                      > black,
                      > > > and so one.
                      > > >
                      > > > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to.
                      > The
                      > > > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                      > > > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                      > > > this person is on a pity trip.
                      > > >
                      > > > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people
                      > and
                      > > > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                      > > >
                      > > > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                      > > > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a
                      > pathway
                      > > > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                      > > > akin to calling white black.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Tony
                      > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "DebbieThurman"
                      > > > <debbie@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging
                      > in
                      > > > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                      > > > parents'/grandparents' generation was somewhat emotionally
                      > repressed,
                      > > > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation
                      > (Boomers)
                      > > > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought
                      > its
                      > > > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                      > > > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are
                      > trying
                      > > > to find the middle ground.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                      > > > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                      > > > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Debbie
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way
                      > overboard.
                      > > > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                      > > > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than
                      > others.
                      > > > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind
                      > you
                      > > > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                      > > > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will
                      > play on
                      > > > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus
                      > conquered
                      > > > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                      > > > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons
                      > and
                      > > > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man
                      > lurking
                      > > > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of
                      > the
                      > > > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are
                      > stranger
                      > > > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind
                      > of
                      > > > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                      > > > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                      > > > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a
                      > generation of
                      > > > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than
                      > it
                      > > > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                      > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr.
                      > secondchronicles7.14life@
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7.14life@
                      > > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                      > > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Â
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hey group,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                      > > > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ
                      > wounds
                      > > > and battle scars?
                      > > > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood
                      > as
                      > > > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother
                      > was
                      > > > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of
                      > what
                      > > > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very
                      > hurtful
                      > > > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not
                      > holding
                      > > > it in my heart.
                      > > > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                      > > > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but
                      > when I
                      > > > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and
                      > moved
                      > > > on.
                      > > > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional"
                      > touch.
                      > > > > > Everybody was molested.
                      > > > > > Everybody was abused.
                      > > > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ
                      > way.
                      > > > > > When is it going to stop?
                      > > > > > No, my father was not there.
                      > > > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                      > > > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                      > > > like?
                      > > > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life
                      > had
                      > > > been like?
                      > > > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about
                      > the
                      > > > plan of God for our lives.
                      > > > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means
                      > even
                      > > > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will
                      > take
                      > > > it and use it for HIS glory.
                      > > > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the
                      > enemy
                      > > > to deter us from reaching God.
                      > > > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                      > > > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                      > > > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with
                      > his
                      > > > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds-
                      > move
                      > > > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the
                      > hurts.
                      > > > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Les
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this
                      > year's
                      > > > fashions."
                      > > > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > > > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                      > > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                      > > > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                      > > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Â
                      > > > > > Hi Debbie,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called
                      > The
                      > > > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand
                      > themselves,
                      > > > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness
                      > portion
                      > > > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have
                      > anyone to
                      > > > forgive.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                      > > > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to
                      > forgive?).
                      > > > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i
                      > meant,
                      > > > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the
                      > buried
                      > > > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he
                      > left
                      > > > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I
                      > keep
                      > > > hearing she might not make it.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided
                      > not
                      > > > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,
                      > not
                      > > > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's
                      > graduation
                      > > > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a
                      > HS
                      > > > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a
                      > cruise.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew
                      > her
                      > > > dad. He said five years.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                      > > > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional
                      > love.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                      > > > lessen some.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate
                      > sense
                      > > > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a
                      > fair
                      > > > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take
                      > a
                      > > > bit to crack this hard nut.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tony
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                      > > > <debbie@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to
                      > your
                      > > > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful
                      > for
                      > > > you, as well as for others.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area
                      > that
                      > > > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow,
                      > anger
                      > > > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all
                      > have
                      > > > those tendencies.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died
                      > for
                      > > > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to
                      > you.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                      > > > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                      > > > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my
                      > own
                      > > > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to
                      > my
                      > > > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a
                      > beginning. He
                      > > > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life
                      > then.
                      > > > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                      > > > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and
                      > I
                      > > > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                      > > > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love
                      > â€"
                      > > > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all
                      > of
                      > > > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                      > > > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                      > > > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                      > > > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It
                      > gives me
                      > > > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I
                      > must
                      > > > be at times.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has
                      > been
                      > > > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves
                      > it.
                      > > > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                      > > > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian
                      > platitudes.
                      > > > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source
                      > â€"
                      > > > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect
                      > with
                      > > > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply
                      > cannot
                      > > > come without that.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                      > > > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we
                      > have
                      > > > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this
                      > life.
                      > > > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or
                      > contrary,
                      > > > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us
                      > that
                      > > > freedom. Amen?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His
                      > lap, we
                      > > > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                      > > > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He
                      > is
                      > > > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He
                      > has
                      > > > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his
                      > neck
                      > > > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                      > > > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                      > > > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for
                      > you.
                      > > > Just think of me as a sister.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Best,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Debbie
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                      > > > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as
                      > friends
                      > > > and to support each other, almost daily.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                      > > > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of
                      > depression
                      > > > and hopelessness.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                      > > > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to
                      > contact
                      > > > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love
                      > from
                      > > > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I
                      > feel
                      > > > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a
                      > sidewalk.
                      > > > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                      > > > qualities.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most
                      > part
                      > > > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me
                      > to be
                      > > > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father
                      > or
                      > > > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it
                      > seems
                      > > > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                      > > > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other
                      > hand,
                      > > > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it
                      > as
                      > > > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                      > > > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I don't know....
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Tony
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com,
                      > "DebbieThurman"
                      > > > <debbie@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey
                      > with
                      > > > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a
                      > confusing
                      > > > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a
                      > simple
                      > > > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have
                      > less
                      > > > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over
                      > and
                      > > > over.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right
                      > now in
                      > > > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                      > > > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                      > > > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) .
                      > I
                      > > > also had to grow through that realization.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                      > > > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us
                      > siblings
                      > > > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                      > > > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                      > > > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                      > > > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that
                      > happened
                      > > > because I reached out, as you did.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can
                      > open
                      > > > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                      > > > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say
                      > hello,"
                      > > > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                      > > > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Best,
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Debbie
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul
                      > Gaetani
                      > > > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                      > > > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a
                      > professional
                      > > > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to
                      > be
                      > > > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand
                      > what
                      > > > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect,
                      > to
                      > > > become of better father to little Paul.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                      > > > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                      > > > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened
                      > when I
                      > > > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his
                      > recliner
                      > > > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved
                      > it.
                      > > > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime
                      > when I
                      > > > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as
                      > a
                      > > > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved
                      > me.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to
                      > reveal
                      > > > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a
                      > little
                      > > > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                      > > > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do
                      > some
                      > > > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                      > > > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself
                      > start
                      > > > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in
                      > the
                      > > > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't
                      > love
                      > > > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved
                      > me,
                      > > > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers
                      > about
                      > > > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                      > > > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                      > > > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                      > > > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                      > > > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few
                      > more
                      > > > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she
                      > witnessed
                      > > > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We
                      > still
                      > > > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is
                      > because
                      > > > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new
                      > furniture
                      > > > was too small.
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say
                      > is
                      > > > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life
                      > that
                      > > > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                      > > > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor
                      > last
                      > > > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                      > > > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can
                      > comprehend
                      > > > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and
                      > open
                      > > > our selves up to him!
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Your brother,
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > Paul
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                      > > > _________ _
                      > > > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                      > > > protection.
                      > > > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • DebbieThurman
                      Les, you have perfectly illustrated here the reconciliation you achieved with your mother, as well as what you could not find with your father. You got one out
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Les, you have perfectly illustrated here the reconciliation you achieved with your mother, as well as what you could not find with your father. You got one out of two.

                        You said: "Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if (its) reconciliation is what you are looking to gain. However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God."

                        "Always" a selfish, vengeful motivation? That could never lead to reconciliation, could it? (Please see 2 Cor. 5:17-21 for a biblical description of Christian reconciliation.) Clearly, there is such an ungodly motive for many people seeking to reconnect with family or others who have victimized or hurt them in the past. But, as you rightly point out, that anger is wrong-headed and will only lead to more pain.

                        I think we are getting this stray horse back on the right path here. Hope so, anyway. :)

                        Debbie


                        --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Lester Demings Jr." <secondchronicles7.14life@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Anthony,
                        >
                        > I honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                        > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                        > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to make me whole again.
                        > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he was found dead.
                        > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love and care for his children?
                        > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt from years ago?
                        > I could have not went to the funeral.
                        > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my mother, my family and myself.
                        > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell out.
                        > But what is all this going to do?
                        > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                        > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                        > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of his children in the process?
                        > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't need to marry him?
                        > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                        > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the world what he did?
                        > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                        > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect as pertains to the Word of God.
                        > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to reconcile and get my life together?
                        > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                        > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                        > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today, my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out money for her to have a good vacation.
                        > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright. People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                        > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and healing.
                        > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                        > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and that is a trick of the enemy.
                        > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                        > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what you are looking to gain.
                        > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                        > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                        > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
                        > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                        > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                        > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                        > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                        > does believe.
                        >
                        > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                        > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                        > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                        > had by some visitation with past pain.
                        >
                        > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                        > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                        > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                        > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                        >
                        > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                        > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                        > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                        > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                        > recently attempted suicide.
                        >
                        > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                        > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                        > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                        > was of the category of healing of memories.
                        >
                        > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                        > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                        > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                        > memory and healed of it.
                        >
                        > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                        > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                        > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                        > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                        > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                        >
                        > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                        > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                        > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                        > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                        > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                        >
                        > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                        > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                        > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                        > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                        > renovation has not occurred.
                        >
                        > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                        > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                        > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                        > conscious) self.
                        >
                        > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                        >
                        > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                        > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                        > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                        > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                        >
                        > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                        > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                        > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                        > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                        > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                        > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
                        >
                        > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                        > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                        > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                        > and so one.
                        >
                        > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                        > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                        > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                        > this person is on a pity trip.
                        >
                        > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                        > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                        >
                        > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                        > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                        > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                        > akin to calling white black.
                        >
                        > Tony
                        > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                        > <debbie@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                        > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                        > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                        > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                        > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                        > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                        > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                        > to find the middle ground.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                        > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                        > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                        > >
                        > > Debbie
                        > >
                        > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                        > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                        > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                        > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                        > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                        > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                        > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                        > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                        > > >
                        > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                        > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                        > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                        > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                        > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                        > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                        > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                        > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                        > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                        > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                        > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                        > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                        > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                        > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                        > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Â
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Hey group,
                        > > >
                        > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                        > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                        > and battle scars?
                        > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                        > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                        > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                        > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                        > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                        > it in my heart.
                        > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                        > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                        > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                        > on.
                        > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                        > > > Everybody was molested.
                        > > > Everybody was abused.
                        > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                        > > > When is it going to stop?
                        > > > No, my father was not there.
                        > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                        > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                        > like?
                        > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                        > been like?
                        > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                        > plan of God for our lives.
                        > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                        > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                        > it and use it for HIS glory.
                        > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                        > to deter us from reaching God.
                        > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                        > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                        > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                        > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                        > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                        > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                        > > >
                        > > > Les
                        > > >
                        > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                        > fashions."
                        > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                        > > >
                        > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                        > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                        > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                        > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                        > > >
                        > > > Â
                        > > > Hi Debbie,
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                        > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                        > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                        > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                        > forgive.
                        > > >
                        > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                        > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                        > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                        > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                        > > >
                        > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                        > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                        > > >
                        > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                        > > >
                        > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                        > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                        > hearing she might not make it.
                        > > >
                        > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                        > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                        > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                        > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                        > > >
                        > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                        > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                        > > >
                        > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                        > dad. He said five years.
                        > > >
                        > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                        > > >
                        > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                        > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                        > lessen some.
                        > > >
                        > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                        > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                        > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                        > > >
                        > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                        > bit to crack this hard nut.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                        > > >
                        > > > Tony
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                        > <debbie@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                        > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                        > you, as well as for others.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                        > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                        > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                        > those tendencies.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                        > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                        > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                        > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                        > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                        > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                        > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                        > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                        > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                        > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                        > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                        > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                        > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                        > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                        > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                        > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                        > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                        > be at times.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                        > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                        > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                        > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                        > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                        > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                        > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                        > come without that.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                        > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                        > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                        > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                        > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                        > freedom. Amen?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                        > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                        > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                        > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                        > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                        > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                        > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                        > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                        > Just think of me as a sister.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Best,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Debbie
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                        > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                        > and to support each other, almost daily.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                        > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                        > and hopelessness.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                        > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                        > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                        > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                        > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                        > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                        > qualities.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                        > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                        > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                        > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                        > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                        > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                        > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                        > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                        > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't know....
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tony
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                        > <debbie@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                        > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                        > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                        > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                        > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                        > over.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                        > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                        > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                        > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                        > also had to grow through that realization.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                        > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                        > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                        > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                        > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                        > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                        > because I reached out, as you did.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                        > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                        > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                        > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                        > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Best,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Debbie
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                        > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                        > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                        > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                        > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                        > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                        > become of better father to little Paul.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                        > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                        > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                        > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                        > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                        > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                        > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                        > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                        > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                        > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                        > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                        > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                        > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                        > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                        > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                        > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                        > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                        > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                        > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                        > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                        > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                        > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                        > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                        > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                        > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                        > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                        > was too small.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                        > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                        > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                        > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                        > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                        > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                        > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                        > our selves up to him!
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Your brother,
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Paul
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                        > _________ _
                        > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                        > protection.
                        > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                      • Lester Demings Jr.
                        Debbie, That is correct. Being vengeful and having selfish motives is not reconciliation at all. If a person yet have anger in you regarding what has happened
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
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                          Debbie,

                          That is correct. Being vengeful and having selfish motives is not reconciliation at all.
                          If a person yet have anger in you regarding what has happened forgiveness has not happened in that person's life. This only further creates an issue and can destroy not only the lives of the person involved but also their family, your family and more deeply the person who was hurt and send them deeper into the pain that they were in.
                          But Debbie, I believe in God's way He did reconcile me with my father even after his death.
                          It was not long after my father had passed and I was thinking about him. Later on that day I took me a nap and I had this dream.
                          I was with a group of my friends and we were all just sitting around talking. My father came in (looking like he did when he was first married to my mother) and he asked if he could speak to me. We went to another room and befoe my father could ever start I just went in yelling at him telling him what he did and how he hurt me and so on and so on. I was crying being "emotional" and my father just stood and listened. When I was done he sat next to me and started talking but I didn't remember anything he said until he said the words I've always wanted to hear him say, "I love you."
                          I've always wanted to hear my father say he loved me and I did.
                          When I woke up my pillow was wet. I'd been crying and from that day to this one I've found my love for my father, forgave him completely and able to remember the good times we had- instead of just the bad.
                          My point is if we allow God to heal us we'll be healed- completely.
                          Imagine if I had of kept dwelling on the past I would have never enjoyed the love I have now for my father. Even though he is not here and yes I hurt because of that, I am able to teach other young men to love their father beyond what they've done and build on what they have now.
                          My pastor back in Rochester always tells us, "If you stay in the past you become history."
                           "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                          Lillian Hellman, Playwright




                          ________________________________
                          From: DebbieThurman <debbie@...>
                          To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 11:53:31 AM
                          Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                           
                          Les, you have perfectly illustrated here the reconciliation you achieved with your mother, as well as what you could not find with your father. You got one out of two.

                          You said: "Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if (its) reconciliation is what you are looking to gain. However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God."

                          "Always" a selfish, vengeful motivation? That could never lead to reconciliation, could it? (Please see 2 Cor. 5:17-21 for a biblical description of Christian reconciliation. ) Clearly, there is such an ungodly motive for many people seeking to reconnect with family or others who have victimized or hurt them in the past. But, as you rightly point out, that anger is wrong-headed and will only lead to more pain.

                          I think we are getting this stray horse back on the right path here. Hope so, anyway. :)

                          Debbie

                          --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Lester Demings Jr." <secondchronicles7. 14life@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > Anthony,
                          >
                          > I honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                          > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                          > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to make me whole again.
                          > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he was found dead.
                          > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love and care for his children?
                          > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt from years ago?
                          > I could have not went to the funeral.
                          > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my mother, my family and myself.
                          > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell out.
                          > But what is all this going to do?
                          > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                          > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                          > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of his children in the process?
                          > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't need to marry him?
                          > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                          > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the world what he did?
                          > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                          > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect as pertains to the Word of God.
                          > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to reconcile and get my life together?
                          > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                          > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                          > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today, my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out money for her to have a good vacation.
                          > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright. People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                          > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and healing.
                          > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                          > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and that is a trick of the enemy.
                          > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                          > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what you are looking to gain.
                          > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                          > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                          > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@. ..>
                          > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                          > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                          > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                          > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                          > does believe.
                          >
                          > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                          > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                          > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                          > had by some visitation with past pain.
                          >
                          > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                          > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                          > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                          > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                          >
                          > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                          > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                          > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                          > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                          > recently attempted suicide.
                          >
                          > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                          > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                          > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                          > was of the category of healing of memories.
                          >
                          > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                          > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                          > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                          > memory and healed of it.
                          >
                          > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                          > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                          > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                          > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                          > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                          >
                          > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                          > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                          > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                          > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                          > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                          >
                          > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                          > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                          > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                          > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                          > renovation has not occurred.
                          >
                          > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                          > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                          > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                          > conscious) self.
                          >
                          > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                          >
                          > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                          > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                          > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                          > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                          >
                          > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                          > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                          > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                          > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                          > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                          > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
                          >
                          > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                          > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                          > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                          > and so one.
                          >
                          > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                          > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                          > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                          > this person is on a pity trip.
                          >
                          > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                          > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                          >
                          > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                          > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                          > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                          > akin to calling white black.
                          >
                          > Tony
                          > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                          > <debbie@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                          > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                          > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                          > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                          > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                          > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                          > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                          > to find the middle ground.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                          > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                          > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                          > >
                          > > Debbie
                          > >
                          > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                          > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                          > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                          > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                          > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                          > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                          > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                          > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                          > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                          > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                          > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                          > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                          > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                          > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                          > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                          > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                          > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                          > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                          > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                          > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                          > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                          > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Â
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Hey group,
                          > > >
                          > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                          > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                          > and battle scars?
                          > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                          > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                          > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                          > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                          > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                          > it in my heart.
                          > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                          > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                          > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                          > on.
                          > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                          > > > Everybody was molested.
                          > > > Everybody was abused.
                          > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                          > > > When is it going to stop?
                          > > > No, my father was not there.
                          > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                          > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                          > like?
                          > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                          > been like?
                          > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                          > plan of God for our lives.
                          > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                          > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                          > it and use it for HIS glory.
                          > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                          > to deter us from reaching God.
                          > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                          > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                          > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                          > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                          > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                          > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                          > > >
                          > > > Les
                          > > >
                          > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                          > fashions."
                          > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                          > > >
                          > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                          > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                          > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                          > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                          > > >
                          > > > Â
                          > > > Hi Debbie,
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                          > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                          > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                          > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                          > forgive.
                          > > >
                          > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                          > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                          > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                          > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                          > > >
                          > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                          > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                          > > >
                          > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                          > > >
                          > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                          > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                          > hearing she might not make it.
                          > > >
                          > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                          > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                          > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                          > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                          > > >
                          > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                          > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                          > > >
                          > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                          > dad. He said five years.
                          > > >
                          > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                          > > >
                          > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                          > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                          > lessen some.
                          > > >
                          > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                          > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                          > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                          > > >
                          > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                          > bit to crack this hard nut.
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                          > > >
                          > > > Tony
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                          > <debbie@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                          > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                          > you, as well as for others.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                          > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                          > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                          > those tendencies.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                          > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                          > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                          > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                          > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                          > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                          > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                          > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                          > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                          > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                          > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                          > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                          > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                          > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                          > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                          > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                          > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                          > be at times.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                          > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                          > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                          > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                          > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                          > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                          > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                          > come without that.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                          > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                          > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                          > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                          > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                          > freedom. Amen?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                          > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                          > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                          > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                          > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                          > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                          > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                          > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                          > Just think of me as a sister.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Best,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Debbie
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                          > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                          > and to support each other, almost daily.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                          > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                          > and hopelessness.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                          > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                          > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                          > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                          > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                          > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                          > qualities.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                          > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                          > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                          > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                          > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                          > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                          > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                          > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                          > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I don't know....
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Tony
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                          > <debbie@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                          > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                          > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                          > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                          > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                          > over.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                          > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                          > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                          > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                          > also had to grow through that realization.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                          > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                          > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                          > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                          > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                          > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                          > because I reached out, as you did.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                          > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                          > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                          > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                          > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Best,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Debbie
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                          > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                          > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                          > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                          > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                          > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                          > become of better father to little Paul.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                          > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                          > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                          > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                          > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                          > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                          > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                          > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                          > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                          > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                          > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                          > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                          > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                          > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                          > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                          > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                          > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                          > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                          > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                          > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                          > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                          > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                          > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                          > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                          > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                          > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                          > was too small.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                          > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                          > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                          > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                          > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                          > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                          > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                          > our selves up to him!
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Your brother,
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Paul
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                          > _________ _
                          > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                          > protection.
                          > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • DebbieThurman
                          Wow. I have heard God speak to me, I feel quite certain, in dreams in a similar way, Les. I can accept that. It falls under His ways are not our ways, I
                          Message 12 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Wow. I have heard God speak to me, I feel quite certain, in dreams in a similar way, Les. I can accept that. It falls under "His ways are not our ways," I suppose. That was likely His way of comforting you so that you would not desire to keep pursuing something that was out of reach.

                            When we look back on our past, whether or not we do that in the presence of the person we may need to deal with, the chief aim ought to be enlightenment and healing. Otherwise, why go there? There is a useful kind of memory and a destructive kind. In counseling parlance, we are to "castrate" (sorry for the image) the unwanted and destructive parts and keep the other, which will remind us where we have come from and where we are not going again. When we find that healing, we can "remember the deeds of the LORD." We can symbolically erect an Ebenezer stone and then move on. I have found myself praising God year after year for those moments in my life.

                            Thanks.

                            Debbie

                            --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Lester Demings Jr." <secondchronicles7.14life@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Debbie,
                            >
                            > That is correct. Being vengeful and having selfish motives is not reconciliation at all.
                            > If a person yet have anger in you regarding what has happened forgiveness has not happened in that person's life. This only further creates an issue and can destroy not only the lives of the person involved but also their family, your family and more deeply the person who was hurt and send them deeper into the pain that they were in.
                            > But Debbie, I believe in God's way He did reconcile me with my father even after his death.
                            > It was not long after my father had passed and I was thinking about him. Later on that day I took me a nap and I had this dream.
                            > I was with a group of my friends and we were all just sitting around talking. My father came in (looking like he did when he was first married to my mother) and he asked if he could speak to me. We went to another room and befoe my father could ever start I just went in yelling at him telling him what he did and how he hurt me and so on and so on. I was crying being "emotional" and my father just stood and listened. When I was done he sat next to me and started talking but I didn't remember anything he said until he said the words I've always wanted to hear him say, "I love you."
                            > I've always wanted to hear my father say he loved me and I did.
                            > When I woke up my pillow was wet. I'd been crying and from that day to this one I've found my love for my father, forgave him completely and able to remember the good times we had- instead of just the bad.
                            > My point is if we allow God to heal us we'll be healed- completely.
                            > Imagine if I had of kept dwelling on the past I would have never enjoyed the love I have now for my father. Even though he is not here and yes I hurt because of that, I am able to teach other young men to love their father beyond what they've done and build on what they have now.
                            > My pastor back in Rochester always tells us, "If you stay in the past you become history."
                            >  "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                            > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: DebbieThurman <debbie@...>
                            > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 11:53:31 AM
                            > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                            >
                            >  
                            > Les, you have perfectly illustrated here the reconciliation you achieved with your mother, as well as what you could not find with your father. You got one out of two.
                            >
                            > You said: "Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if (its) reconciliation is what you are looking to gain. However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God."
                            >
                            > "Always" a selfish, vengeful motivation? That could never lead to reconciliation, could it? (Please see 2 Cor. 5:17-21 for a biblical description of Christian reconciliation. ) Clearly, there is such an ungodly motive for many people seeking to reconnect with family or others who have victimized or hurt them in the past. But, as you rightly point out, that anger is wrong-headed and will only lead to more pain.
                            >
                            > I think we are getting this stray horse back on the right path here. Hope so, anyway. :)
                            >
                            > Debbie
                            >
                            > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Lester Demings Jr." <secondchronicles7. 14life@ .> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Anthony,
                            > >
                            > > I honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                            > > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                            > > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to make me whole again.
                            > > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he was found dead.
                            > > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love and care for his children?
                            > > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt from years ago?
                            > > I could have not went to the funeral.
                            > > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my mother, my family and myself.
                            > > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell out.
                            > > But what is all this going to do?
                            > > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                            > > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                            > > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of his children in the process?
                            > > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't need to marry him?
                            > > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                            > > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the world what he did?
                            > > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                            > > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect as pertains to the Word of God.
                            > > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to reconcile and get my life together?
                            > > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                            > > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                            > > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today, my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out money for her to have a good vacation.
                            > > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright. People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                            > > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and healing.
                            > > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                            > > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and that is a trick of the enemy.
                            > > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                            > > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what you are looking to gain.
                            > > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish, vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                            > > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >  "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                            > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > > From: Anthony <tonyb0505@ ..>
                            > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                            > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                            > > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                            > > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or she
                            > > does believe.
                            > >
                            > > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding this
                            > > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                            > > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                            > > had by some visitation with past pain.
                            > >
                            > > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part of
                            > > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                            > > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                            > > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                            > >
                            > > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports MY
                            > > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                            > > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                            > > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                            > > recently attempted suicide.
                            > >
                            > > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                            > > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                            > > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                            > > was of the category of healing of memories.
                            > >
                            > > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                            > > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                            > > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through the
                            > > memory and healed of it.
                            > >
                            > > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                            > > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                            > > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                            > > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                            > > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                            > >
                            > > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is composed
                            > > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                            > > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                            > > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                            > > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                            > >
                            > > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                            > > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are dredged
                            > > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                            > > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                            > > renovation has not occurred.
                            > >
                            > > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water. For
                            > > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                            > > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                            > > conscious) self.
                            > >
                            > > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                            > >
                            > > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                            > > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                            > > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                            > > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                            > >
                            > > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                            > > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                            > > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to Lisa
                            > > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                            > > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                            > > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity trip.
                            > >
                            > > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                            > > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is only
                            > > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                            > > and so one.
                            > >
                            > > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                            > > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                            > > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                            > > this person is on a pity trip.
                            > >
                            > > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                            > > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                            > >
                            > > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                            > > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                            > > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                            > > akin to calling white black.
                            > >
                            > > Tony
                            > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                            > > <debbie@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging in
                            > > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                            > > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                            > > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                            > > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                            > > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                            > > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are trying
                            > > to find the middle ground.
                            > > >
                            > > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                            > > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                            > > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                            > > >
                            > > > Debbie
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                            > > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                            > > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than others.
                            > > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                            > > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                            > > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play on
                            > > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus conquered
                            > > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                            > > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons and
                            > > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                            > > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of the
                            > > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are stranger
                            > > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                            > > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                            > > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                            > > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation of
                            > > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                            > > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                            > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                            > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                            > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                            > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hey group,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                            > > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healed wounds
                            > > and battle scars?
                            > > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood as
                            > > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                            > > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of what
                            > > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very hurtful
                            > > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not holding
                            > > it in my heart.
                            > > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                            > > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but when I
                            > > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and moved
                            > > on.
                            > > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                            > > > > Everybody was molested.
                            > > > > Everybody was abused.
                            > > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in some way.
                            > > > > When is it going to stop?
                            > > > > No, my father was not there.
                            > > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                            > > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                            > > like?
                            > > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life had
                            > > been like?
                            > > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about the
                            > > plan of God for our lives.
                            > > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means even
                            > > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will take
                            > > it and use it for HIS glory.
                            > > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the enemy
                            > > to deter us from reaching God.
                            > > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                            > > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                            > > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                            > > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                            > > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                            > > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Les
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                            > > fashions."
                            > > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                            > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                            > > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                            > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Â
                            > > > > Hi Debbie,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called The
                            > > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                            > > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness portion
                            > > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone to
                            > > forgive.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                            > > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                            > > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                            > > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the buried
                            > > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                            > > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I keep
                            > > hearing she might not make it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                            > > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter, not
                            > > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                            > > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                            > > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a cruise.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew her
                            > > dad. He said five years.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                            > > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                            > > lessen some.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate sense
                            > > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a fair
                            > > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                            > > bit to crack this hard nut.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Tony
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                            > > <debbie@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to your
                            > > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                            > > you, as well as for others.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                            > > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                            > > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                            > > those tendencies.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died for
                            > > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                            > > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                            > > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                            > > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to my
                            > > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning. He
                            > > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life then.
                            > > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                            > > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                            > > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                            > > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love â€"
                            > > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                            > > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                            > > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                            > > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                            > > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives me
                            > > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I must
                            > > be at times.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has been
                            > > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves it.
                            > > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                            > > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                            > > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source â€"
                            > > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect with
                            > > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply cannot
                            > > come without that.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                            > > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we have
                            > > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                            > > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or contrary,
                            > > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us that
                            > > freedom. Amen?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap, we
                            > > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                            > > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He is
                            > > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                            > > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his neck
                            > > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                            > > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                            > > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                            > > Just think of me as a sister.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Best,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Debbie
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                            > > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                            > > and to support each other, almost daily.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                            > > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                            > > and hopelessness.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                            > > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to contact
                            > > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                            > > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I feel
                            > > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                            > > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                            > > qualities.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most part
                            > > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to be
                            > > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father or
                            > > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it seems
                            > > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                            > > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other hand,
                            > > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it as
                            > > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                            > > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I don't know....
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Tony
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                            > > <debbie@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey with
                            > > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a confusing
                            > > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a simple
                            > > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have less
                            > > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                            > > over.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now in
                            > > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                            > > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                            > > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                            > > also had to grow through that realization.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                            > > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                            > > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                            > > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                            > > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                            > > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that happened
                            > > because I reached out, as you did.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                            > > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                            > > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                            > > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                            > > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Best,
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Debbie
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                            > > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                            > > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                            > > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to be
                            > > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand what
                            > > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                            > > become of better father to little Paul.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                            > > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                            > > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when I
                            > > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                            > > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved it.
                            > > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when I
                            > > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                            > > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved me.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                            > > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                            > > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                            > > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do some
                            > > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                            > > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                            > > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in the
                            > > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                            > > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                            > > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers about
                            > > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                            > > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                            > > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                            > > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                            > > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                            > > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                            > > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We still
                            > > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is because
                            > > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                            > > was too small.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                            > > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life that
                            > > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                            > > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor last
                            > > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                            > > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can comprehend
                            > > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and open
                            > > our selves up to him!
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Your brother,
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Paul
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                            > > _________ _
                            > > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                            > > protection.
                            > > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Anthony
                            Hi Les, I think I just want to reply to what I see as fairly significant points. You wrote: However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I
                            Message 13 of 29 , Mar 22, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Les,



                              I think I just want to reply to what I see as fairly significant points.



                              You wrote:

                              "However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have
                              a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                              make me whole again."



                              To this, I do not know what to do except to repeat Lisa's example.
                              She wasn't even aware of anything to forgive or release. It seems
                              to me that you are making assumptions about the process of forgiving and
                              releasing. Like anyone can do it right now if they are truly willing to
                              do so.



                              All I can say on the matter is that I am aware of stuff, but I seem
                              unable to release it. Perhaps time will indicate that for me the
                              process of doing so has taken place, is taking place, and is ongoing. I
                              happen to be convinced that I am presently unable to completely forgive
                              and release at the present time and this seems to be a notion you cannot
                              agree with, which is fine.



                              But, to go back to Lisa, she was perfectly unable to forgive and release
                              as well and I do not for one second believe her problem was insincerity,
                              or a desire to cling to homosexuality, or a rebellious heart.



                              None of what I am saying is endorsing holding onto anger or behaving in
                              an inappropriate manner toward anyone (including any who have hurt me),
                              or embracing homosexuality.



                              You wrote:

                              "Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I
                              won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                              because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                              life because that is what I CHOSE to live."



                              There is no way I chose to have the homosexual inclination I have. I
                              differ with you as to what a homosexual is. "Ye shall know a tree
                              by its fruit." If, for example, some guy is highly homosexual in
                              orientation, cannot be with a woman (behave heterosexually), and lives a
                              celibate lifestyle, I would say he is a homosexual tree that produces
                              repressed homosexual fruit.



                              God wants to change who we are and I do not believe we become "no
                              longer homosexual" by choosing not to engage in homosexual
                              practices. (This may help, but I think indirectly such as by curbing
                              reinforcement.) We become "no longer homosexual" by somehow
                              permitting God to renovate our hearts and a renovated heart no longer
                              engages in homosexual behaviors because the heart is no longer
                              homosexual.



                              And just so you know…

                              Except for one single time, I have not had sex with a male since I was
                              15 years old. I told a pretty skilled counselor my life and she was
                              absolutely shocked that with my background, I did not choose to have a
                              few gay lovers.



                              She couldn't believe it! (Well, my repetitions finally sank in.
                              "How many gay lovers have you had?" "None." Repeat the
                              question and answer a half dozen times.)



                              "Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but
                              I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and
                              I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you."



                              Think Lisa. I think I am very much like her except I have somehow not
                              been enabled to revisit my past in the way she was blessed to do so.



                              If that doesn't help temper your sense that I can immediately (this
                              very moment) "forgive and release," I don't know what can.



                              And that's OK.



                              Bless You, Les,




                              Tony
                              --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Lester Demings Jr."
                              <secondchronicles7.14life@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Anthony,
                              >
                              > IÂ honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my
                              best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                              > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                              > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a
                              choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                              make me whole again.
                              > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I
                              was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better
                              relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run
                              from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he
                              was found dead.
                              > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about
                              him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug
                              addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on
                              my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he
                              chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love
                              and care for his children?
                              > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt
                              from years ago?
                              > I could have not went to the funeral.
                              > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my
                              mother, my family and myself.
                              > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell
                              out.
                              > But what is all this going to do?
                              > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask
                              for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                              > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with
                              me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                              > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for
                              what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of
                              his children in the process?
                              > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't
                              need to marry him?
                              > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                              > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the
                              world what he did?
                              > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it
                              and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and
                              God.
                              > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop
                              getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect
                              as pertains to the Word of God.
                              > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I
                              turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to
                              reconcile and get my life together?
                              > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful
                              things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she
                              had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me
                              love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to
                              me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to
                              say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a
                              good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it
                              now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                              > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my
                              mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was
                              growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                              > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today,
                              my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are
                              strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year
                              and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters
                              offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who
                              was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out
                              money for her to have a good vacation.
                              > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright.
                              People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you
                              imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                              > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and
                              psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow
                              God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my
                              heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but
                              He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and
                              healing.
                              > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance
                              with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                              > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the
                              "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and
                              that is a trick of the enemy.
                              > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't
                              allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                              because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                              life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                              > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what
                              you are looking to gain.
                              > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish,
                              vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                              > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I
                              feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I
                              believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                              fashions."
                              > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Anthony tonyb0505@...
                              > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                              > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                              >
                              > Â
                              >
                              > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                              > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                              > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or
                              she
                              > does believe.
                              >
                              > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding
                              this
                              > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                              > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                              > had by some visitation with past pain.
                              >
                              > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part
                              of
                              > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                              > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                              > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                              >
                              > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports
                              MY
                              > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                              > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                              > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                              > recently attempted suicide.
                              >
                              > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                              > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                              > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                              > was of the category of healing of memories.
                              >
                              > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                              > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                              > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through
                              the
                              > memory and healed of it.
                              >
                              > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                              > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                              > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                              > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                              > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                              >
                              > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is
                              composed
                              > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                              > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                              > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                              > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                              >
                              > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                              > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are
                              dredged
                              > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                              > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                              > renovation has not occurred.
                              >
                              > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.
                              For
                              > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                              > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                              > conscious) self.
                              >
                              > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                              >
                              > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                              > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                              > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                              > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                              >
                              > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                              > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                              > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to
                              Lisa
                              > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                              > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                              > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity
                              trip.
                              >
                              > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                              > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is
                              only
                              > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                              > and so one.
                              >
                              > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                              > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                              > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                              > this person is on a pity trip.
                              >
                              > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                              > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                              >
                              > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                              > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                              > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                              > akin to calling white black.
                              >
                              > Tony
                              > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                              > debbie@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging
                              in
                              > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                              > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                              > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                              > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                              > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                              > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are
                              trying
                              > to find the middle ground.
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                              > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                              > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                              > >
                              > > Debbie
                              > >
                              > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                              > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                              > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                              > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than
                              others.
                              > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                              > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                              > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play
                              on
                              > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus
                              conquered
                              > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                              > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons
                              and
                              > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                              > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of
                              the
                              > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are
                              stranger
                              > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                              > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                              > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                              > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation
                              of
                              > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                              > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                              > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                              > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                              > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                              > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Â
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Hey group,
                              > > >
                              > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                              > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ
                              wounds
                              > and battle scars?
                              > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood
                              as
                              > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                              > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of
                              what
                              > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very
                              hurtful
                              > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not
                              holding
                              > it in my heart.
                              > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                              > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but
                              when I
                              > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and
                              moved
                              > on.
                              > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                              > > > Everybody was molested.
                              > > > Everybody was abused.
                              > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ
                              way.
                              > > > When is it going to stop?
                              > > > No, my father was not there.
                              > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                              > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                              > like?
                              > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life
                              had
                              > been like?
                              > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about
                              the
                              > plan of God for our lives.
                              > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means
                              even
                              > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will
                              take
                              > it and use it for HIS glory.
                              > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the
                              enemy
                              > to deter us from reaching God.
                              > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                              > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                              > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                              > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                              > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                              > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                              > > >
                              > > > Les
                              > > >
                              > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this
                              year's
                              > fashions."
                              > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                              > > >
                              > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                              > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                              > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                              > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                              > > >
                              > > > Â
                              > > > Hi Debbie,
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called
                              The
                              > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                              > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness
                              portion
                              > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone
                              to
                              > forgive.
                              > > >
                              > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                              > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                              > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                              > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                              > > >
                              > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the
                              buried
                              > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                              > > >
                              > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                              > > >
                              > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                              > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I
                              keep
                              > hearing she might not make it.
                              > > >
                              > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                              > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,
                              not
                              > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                              > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                              > > >
                              > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                              > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a
                              cruise.
                              > > >
                              > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew
                              her
                              > dad. He said five years.
                              > > >
                              > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                              > > >
                              > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                              > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                              > lessen some.
                              > > >
                              > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate
                              sense
                              > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a
                              fair
                              > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                              > > >
                              > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                              > bit to crack this hard nut.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                              > > >
                              > > > Tony
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                              > <debbie@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to
                              your
                              > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                              > you, as well as for others.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                              > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                              > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                              > those tendencies.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died
                              for
                              > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                              > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                              > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                              > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to
                              my
                              > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning.
                              He
                              > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life
                              then.
                              > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                              > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                              > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                              > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love
                              â€"
                              > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                              > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                              > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                              > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                              > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives
                              me
                              > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I
                              must
                              > be at times.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has
                              been
                              > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves
                              it.
                              > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                              > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                              > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source
                              â€"
                              > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect
                              with
                              > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply
                              cannot
                              > come without that.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                              > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we
                              have
                              > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                              > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or
                              contrary,
                              > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us
                              that
                              > freedom. Amen?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap,
                              we
                              > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                              > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He
                              is
                              > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                              > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his
                              neck
                              > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                              > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                              > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                              > Just think of me as a sister.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Best,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Debbie
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                              > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                              > and to support each other, almost daily.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                              > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                              > and hopelessness.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                              > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to
                              contact
                              > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                              > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I
                              feel
                              > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                              > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                              > qualities.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most
                              part
                              > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to
                              be
                              > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father
                              or
                              > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it
                              seems
                              > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                              > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other
                              hand,
                              > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it
                              as
                              > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                              > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I don't know....
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Tony
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                              > <debbie@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey
                              with
                              > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a
                              confusing
                              > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a
                              simple
                              > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have
                              less
                              > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                              > over.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now
                              in
                              > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                              > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                              > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                              > also had to grow through that realization.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                              > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                              > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                              > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                              > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                              > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that
                              happened
                              > because I reached out, as you did.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                              > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                              > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                              > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                              > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Best,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Debbie
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                              > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                              > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                              > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to
                              be
                              > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand
                              what
                              > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                              > become of better father to little Paul.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                              > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                              > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when
                              I
                              > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                              > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved
                              it.
                              > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when
                              I
                              > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                              > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved
                              me.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                              > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                              > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                              > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do
                              some
                              > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                              > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                              > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in
                              the
                              > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                              > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                              > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers
                              about
                              > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                              > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                              > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                              > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                              > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                              > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                              > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We
                              still
                              > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is
                              because
                              > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                              > was too small.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                              > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life
                              that
                              > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                              > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor
                              last
                              > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                              > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can
                              comprehend
                              > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and
                              open
                              > our selves up to him!
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Your brother,
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Paul
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                              > _________ _
                              > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                              > protection.
                              > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
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                            • DebbieThurman
                              Well, this certainly continues to be a compelling and interesting discussion. I am no more an expert (aside from my own experiences in life and what I have
                              Message 14 of 29 , Mar 23, 2010
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                                Well, this certainly continues to be a compelling and interesting discussion. I am no more an expert (aside from my own experiences in life and what I have learned from walking alongside other strugglers) than are any of us here. So what I say can be taken with a grain of salt, or can at least be food for thought. Or you can search God's Word to find the source and measure the truth of my beliefs.

                                I share your concerns, Les, over what you see as a growing climate of sympathy for the gay culture, fed by the victimization mantra. I see that, too. Where it gets sticky is in attempting to separate the hurting individual, who is worthy of love and compassion, from the socio-political herd he/she is caught up in. Seems the two sides are fighting over whose influence will prevail. We have some ugly extremes at either end of the spectrum.

                                The Church ought to be the safe haven for all, but it often is not. Godly believers, especially those whose hearts and minds have been renewed and transformed so that they can live above this very struggle of SSA, ought to have no fear of speaking the truth in love as they model transformed lives. But they (we) are vilified, as well. When Christians behave badly and slash their wounded, it is the deepest cut of all.

                                Very, very few of us make it to adulthood without having been significantly wounded in some way. And, as Anthony points out, many times we have a great deal of difficulty even seeing where the broken places are. But I firmly believe — and have seen it happen time and time again, in myself and in others — that when we submit to God and the process of restoration, the Holy Spirit will show us what we need to see, little by little. It's not a lightning bolt experience. It takes time to peal back the onion layers.

                                We can refuse to submit to the process or just choose to dismiss it and cover over our pain with a veneer of defensive mechanisms. We'll get through life that way, maybe. But what will our relationships be like and how will we relate to God? There's the rub.

                                Or, we can worship at the altar of victimization and make a religion or a movement out of that. That's no good, either.

                                It's OK to walk with a limp that may show we have a former broken place, now healed. It's OK to know there is a scar where once there was a gaping, bleeding wound. To ignore a needed healing process means we will walk with one or more limbs out of joint. And we do have a choice in that.

                                I cannot accept that SSA is ever a choice. Behavior is. Self-medicating is. We don't inflict wounds on ourselves intentionally. We can and do make things worse through our ignorance and seeking to have legitimate needs met somehow.

                                Peace to all,

                                Debbie

                                --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <tonyb0505@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Les,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I think I just want to reply to what I see as fairly significant points.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You wrote:
                                >
                                > "However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have
                                > a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                                > make me whole again."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To this, I do not know what to do except to repeat Lisa's example.
                                > She wasn't even aware of anything to forgive or release. It seems
                                > to me that you are making assumptions about the process of forgiving and
                                > releasing. Like anyone can do it right now if they are truly willing to
                                > do so.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > All I can say on the matter is that I am aware of stuff, but I seem
                                > unable to release it. Perhaps time will indicate that for me the
                                > process of doing so has taken place, is taking place, and is ongoing. I
                                > happen to be convinced that I am presently unable to completely forgive
                                > and release at the present time and this seems to be a notion you cannot
                                > agree with, which is fine.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > But, to go back to Lisa, she was perfectly unable to forgive and release
                                > as well and I do not for one second believe her problem was insincerity,
                                > or a desire to cling to homosexuality, or a rebellious heart.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > None of what I am saying is endorsing holding onto anger or behaving in
                                > an inappropriate manner toward anyone (including any who have hurt me),
                                > or embracing homosexuality.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > You wrote:
                                >
                                > "Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I
                                > won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                                > because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                                > life because that is what I CHOSE to live."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > There is no way I chose to have the homosexual inclination I have. I
                                > differ with you as to what a homosexual is. "Ye shall know a tree
                                > by its fruit." If, for example, some guy is highly homosexual in
                                > orientation, cannot be with a woman (behave heterosexually), and lives a
                                > celibate lifestyle, I would say he is a homosexual tree that produces
                                > repressed homosexual fruit.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > God wants to change who we are and I do not believe we become "no
                                > longer homosexual" by choosing not to engage in homosexual
                                > practices. (This may help, but I think indirectly such as by curbing
                                > reinforcement.) We become "no longer homosexual" by somehow
                                > permitting God to renovate our hearts and a renovated heart no longer
                                > engages in homosexual behaviors because the heart is no longer
                                > homosexual.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > And just so you know…
                                >
                                > Except for one single time, I have not had sex with a male since I was
                                > 15 years old. I told a pretty skilled counselor my life and she was
                                > absolutely shocked that with my background, I did not choose to have a
                                > few gay lovers.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > She couldn't believe it! (Well, my repetitions finally sank in.
                                > "How many gay lovers have you had?" "None." Repeat the
                                > question and answer a half dozen times.)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > "Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but
                                > I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and
                                > I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Think Lisa. I think I am very much like her except I have somehow not
                                > been enabled to revisit my past in the way she was blessed to do so.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If that doesn't help temper your sense that I can immediately (this
                                > very moment) "forgive and release," I don't know what can.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > And that's OK.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Bless You, Les,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tony
                                > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Lester Demings Jr."
                                > <secondchronicles7.14life@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Anthony,
                                > >
                                > > IÂ honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my
                                > best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                                > > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                                > > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a
                                > choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                                > make me whole again.
                                > > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I
                                > was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better
                                > relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run
                                > from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he
                                > was found dead.
                                > > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about
                                > him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug
                                > addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on
                                > my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he
                                > chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love
                                > and care for his children?
                                > > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt
                                > from years ago?
                                > > I could have not went to the funeral.
                                > > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my
                                > mother, my family and myself.
                                > > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell
                                > out.
                                > > But what is all this going to do?
                                > > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask
                                > for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                                > > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with
                                > me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                                > > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for
                                > what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of
                                > his children in the process?
                                > > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't
                                > need to marry him?
                                > > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                                > > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the
                                > world what he did?
                                > > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it
                                > and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and
                                > God.
                                > > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop
                                > getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect
                                > as pertains to the Word of God.
                                > > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I
                                > turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to
                                > reconcile and get my life together?
                                > > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful
                                > things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she
                                > had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me
                                > love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to
                                > me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to
                                > say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a
                                > good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it
                                > now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                                > > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my
                                > mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was
                                > growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                                > > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today,
                                > my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are
                                > strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year
                                > and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters
                                > offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who
                                > was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out
                                > money for her to have a good vacation.
                                > > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright.
                                > People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you
                                > imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                                > > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and
                                > psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow
                                > God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my
                                > heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but
                                > He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and
                                > healing.
                                > > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance
                                > with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                                > > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the
                                > "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and
                                > that is a trick of the enemy.
                                > > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't
                                > allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                                > because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                                > life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                                > > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what
                                > you are looking to gain.
                                > > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish,
                                > vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                                > > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I
                                > feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I
                                > believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                                > fashions."
                                > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@
                                > > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                                > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                > >
                                > > Â
                                > >
                                > > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                                > > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                                > > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or
                                > she
                                > > does believe.
                                > >
                                > > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding
                                > this
                                > > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                                > > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                                > > had by some visitation with past pain.
                                > >
                                > > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part
                                > of
                                > > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                                > > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                                > > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                                > >
                                > > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports
                                > MY
                                > > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                                > > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                                > > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                                > > recently attempted suicide.
                                > >
                                > > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                                > > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                                > > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                                > > was of the category of healing of memories.
                                > >
                                > > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                                > > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                                > > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through
                                > the
                                > > memory and healed of it.
                                > >
                                > > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                                > > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                                > > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                                > > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                                > > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                                > >
                                > > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is
                                > composed
                                > > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                                > > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                                > > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                                > > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                                > >
                                > > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                                > > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are
                                > dredged
                                > > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                                > > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                                > > renovation has not occurred.
                                > >
                                > > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.
                                > For
                                > > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                                > > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                                > > conscious) self.
                                > >
                                > > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                                > >
                                > > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                                > > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                                > > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                                > > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                                > >
                                > > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                                > > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                                > > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to
                                > Lisa
                                > > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                                > > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                                > > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity
                                > trip.
                                > >
                                > > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                                > > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is
                                > only
                                > > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                                > > and so one.
                                > >
                                > > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                                > > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                                > > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                                > > this person is on a pity trip.
                                > >
                                > > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                                > > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                                > >
                                > > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                                > > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                                > > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                                > > akin to calling white black.
                                > >
                                > > Tony
                                > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                > > debbie@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging
                                > in
                                > > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                                > > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                                > > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                                > > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                                > > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                                > > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are
                                > trying
                                > > to find the middle ground.
                                > > >
                                > > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                                > > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                                > > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                                > > >
                                > > > Debbie
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                                > > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                                > > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than
                                > others.
                                > > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                                > > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                                > > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play
                                > on
                                > > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus
                                > conquered
                                > > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                                > > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons
                                > and
                                > > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                                > > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of
                                > the
                                > > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are
                                > stranger
                                > > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                                > > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                                > > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                                > > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation
                                > of
                                > > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                                > > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                                > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                                > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Â
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hey group,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                                > > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ
                                > wounds
                                > > and battle scars?
                                > > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood
                                > as
                                > > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                                > > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of
                                > what
                                > > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very
                                > hurtful
                                > > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not
                                > holding
                                > > it in my heart.
                                > > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                                > > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but
                                > when I
                                > > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and
                                > moved
                                > > on.
                                > > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                                > > > > Everybody was molested.
                                > > > > Everybody was abused.
                                > > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ
                                > way.
                                > > > > When is it going to stop?
                                > > > > No, my father was not there.
                                > > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                                > > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                                > > like?
                                > > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life
                                > had
                                > > been like?
                                > > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about
                                > the
                                > > plan of God for our lives.
                                > > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means
                                > even
                                > > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will
                                > take
                                > > it and use it for HIS glory.
                                > > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the
                                > enemy
                                > > to deter us from reaching God.
                                > > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                                > > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                                > > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                                > > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                                > > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                                > > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Les
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this
                                > year's
                                > > fashions."
                                > > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                                > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                                > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Â
                                > > > > Hi Debbie,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called
                                > The
                                > > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                                > > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness
                                > portion
                                > > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone
                                > to
                                > > forgive.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                                > > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                                > > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                                > > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the
                                > buried
                                > > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                                > > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I
                                > keep
                                > > hearing she might not make it.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                                > > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,
                                > not
                                > > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                                > > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                                > > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a
                                > cruise.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew
                                > her
                                > > dad. He said five years.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                                > > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                                > > lessen some.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate
                                > sense
                                > > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a
                                > fair
                                > > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                                > > bit to crack this hard nut.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Tony
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                > > <debbie@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to
                                > your
                                > > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                                > > you, as well as for others.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                                > > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                                > > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                                > > those tendencies.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died
                                > for
                                > > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                                > > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                                > > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                                > > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to
                                > my
                                > > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning.
                                > He
                                > > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life
                                > then.
                                > > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                                > > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                                > > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                                > > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love
                                > â€"
                                > > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                                > > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                                > > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                                > > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                                > > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives
                                > me
                                > > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I
                                > must
                                > > be at times.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has
                                > been
                                > > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves
                                > it.
                                > > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                                > > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                                > > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source
                                > â€"
                                > > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect
                                > with
                                > > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply
                                > cannot
                                > > come without that.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                                > > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we
                                > have
                                > > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                                > > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or
                                > contrary,
                                > > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us
                                > that
                                > > freedom. Amen?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap,
                                > we
                                > > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                                > > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He
                                > is
                                > > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                                > > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his
                                > neck
                                > > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                                > > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                                > > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                                > > Just think of me as a sister.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Best,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Debbie
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                                > > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                                > > and to support each other, almost daily.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                                > > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                                > > and hopelessness.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                                > > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to
                                > contact
                                > > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                                > > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I
                                > feel
                                > > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                                > > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                                > > qualities.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most
                                > part
                                > > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to
                                > be
                                > > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father
                                > or
                                > > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it
                                > seems
                                > > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                                > > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other
                                > hand,
                                > > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it
                                > as
                                > > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                                > > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I don't know....
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Tony
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                > > <debbie@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey
                                > with
                                > > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a
                                > confusing
                                > > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a
                                > simple
                                > > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have
                                > less
                                > > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                                > > over.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now
                                > in
                                > > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                                > > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                                > > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                                > > also had to grow through that realization.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                                > > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                                > > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                                > > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                                > > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                                > > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that
                                > happened
                                > > because I reached out, as you did.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                                > > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                                > > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                                > > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                                > > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Best,
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Debbie
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                                > > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                                > > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                                > > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to
                                > be
                                > > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand
                                > what
                                > > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                                > > become of better father to little Paul.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                                > > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                                > > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when
                                > I
                                > > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                                > > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved
                                > it.
                                > > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when
                                > I
                                > > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                                > > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved
                                > me.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                                > > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                                > > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                                > > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do
                                > some
                                > > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                                > > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                                > > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in
                                > the
                                > > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                                > > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                                > > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers
                                > about
                                > > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                                > > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                                > > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                                > > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                                > > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                                > > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                                > > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We
                                > still
                                > > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is
                                > because
                                > > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                                > > was too small.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                                > > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life
                                > that
                                > > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                                > > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor
                                > last
                                > > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                                > > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can
                                > comprehend
                                > > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and
                                > open
                                > > our selves up to him!
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Your brother,
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Paul
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                > > _________ _
                                > > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                                > > protection.
                                > > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Thom Hunter
                                Very good. Thom ... From: DebbieThurman Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update. To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday,
                                Message 15 of 29 , Mar 23, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Very good.
                                  Thom

                                  --- On Tue, 3/23/10, DebbieThurman <debbie@...> wrote:

                                  From: DebbieThurman <debbie@...>
                                  Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                  To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2010, 7:20 AM
















                                   









                                  Well, this certainly continues to be a compelling and interesting discussion. I am no more an expert (aside from my own experiences in life and what I have learned from walking alongside other strugglers) than are any of us here. So what I say can be taken with a grain of salt, or can at least be food for thought. Or you can search God's Word to find the source and measure the truth of my beliefs.



                                  I share your concerns, Les, over what you see as a growing climate of sympathy for the gay culture, fed by the victimization mantra. I see that, too. Where it gets sticky is in attempting to separate the hurting individual, who is worthy of love and compassion, from the socio-political herd he/she is caught up in. Seems the two sides are fighting over whose influence will prevail. We have some ugly extremes at either end of the spectrum.



                                  The Church ought to be the safe haven for all, but it often is not. Godly believers, especially those whose hearts and minds have been renewed and transformed so that they can live above this very struggle of SSA, ought to have no fear of speaking the truth in love as they model transformed lives. But they (we) are vilified, as well. When Christians behave badly and slash their wounded, it is the deepest cut of all.



                                  Very, very few of us make it to adulthood without having been significantly wounded in some way. And, as Anthony points out, many times we have a great deal of difficulty even seeing where the broken places are. But I firmly believe — and have seen it happen time and time again, in myself and in others — that when we submit to God and the process of restoration, the Holy Spirit will show us what we need to see, little by little. It's not a lightning bolt experience. It takes time to peal back the onion layers.



                                  We can refuse to submit to the process or just choose to dismiss it and cover over our pain with a veneer of defensive mechanisms. We'll get through life that way, maybe. But what will our relationships be like and how will we relate to God? There's the rub.



                                  Or, we can worship at the altar of victimization and make a religion or a movement out of that. That's no good, either.



                                  It's OK to walk with a limp that may show we have a former broken place, now healed. It's OK to know there is a scar where once there was a gaping, bleeding wound. To ignore a needed healing process means we will walk with one or more limbs out of joint. And we do have a choice in that.



                                  I cannot accept that SSA is ever a choice. Behavior is. Self-medicating is. We don't inflict wounds on ourselves intentionally. We can and do make things worse through our ignorance and seeking to have legitimate needs met somehow.



                                  Peace to all,



                                  Debbie



                                  --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony" <tonyb0505@. ..> wrote:

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Hi Les,

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > I think I just want to reply to what I see as fairly significant points.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > You wrote:

                                  >

                                  > "However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have

                                  > a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to

                                  > make me whole again."

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > To this, I do not know what to do except to repeat Lisa's example.

                                  > She wasn't even aware of anything to forgive or release. It seems

                                  > to me that you are making assumptions about the process of forgiving and

                                  > releasing. Like anyone can do it right now if they are truly willing to

                                  > do so.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > All I can say on the matter is that I am aware of stuff, but I seem

                                  > unable to release it. Perhaps time will indicate that for me the

                                  > process of doing so has taken place, is taking place, and is ongoing. I

                                  > happen to be convinced that I am presently unable to completely forgive

                                  > and release at the present time and this seems to be a notion you cannot

                                  > agree with, which is fine.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > But, to go back to Lisa, she was perfectly unable to forgive and release

                                  > as well and I do not for one second believe her problem was insincerity,

                                  > or a desire to cling to homosexuality, or a rebellious heart.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > None of what I am saying is endorsing holding onto anger or behaving in

                                  > an inappropriate manner toward anyone (including any who have hurt me),

                                  > or embracing homosexuality.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > You wrote:

                                  >

                                  > "Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I

                                  > won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle

                                  > because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that

                                  > life because that is what I CHOSE to live."

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > There is no way I chose to have the homosexual inclination I have. I

                                  > differ with you as to what a homosexual is. "Ye shall know a tree

                                  > by its fruit." If, for example, some guy is highly homosexual in

                                  > orientation, cannot be with a woman (behave heterosexually) , and lives a

                                  > celibate lifestyle, I would say he is a homosexual tree that produces

                                  > repressed homosexual fruit.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > God wants to change who we are and I do not believe we become "no

                                  > longer homosexual" by choosing not to engage in homosexual

                                  > practices. (This may help, but I think indirectly such as by curbing

                                  > reinforcement. ) We become "no longer homosexual" by somehow

                                  > permitting God to renovate our hearts and a renovated heart no longer

                                  > engages in homosexual behaviors because the heart is no longer

                                  > homosexual.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > And just so you know…

                                  >

                                  > Except for one single time, I have not had sex with a male since I was

                                  > 15 years old. I told a pretty skilled counselor my life and she was

                                  > absolutely shocked that with my background, I did not choose to have a

                                  > few gay lovers.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > She couldn't believe it! (Well, my repetitions finally sank in.

                                  > "How many gay lovers have you had?" "None." Repeat the

                                  > question and answer a half dozen times.)

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > "Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but

                                  > I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and

                                  > I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you."

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Think Lisa. I think I am very much like her except I have somehow not

                                  > been enabled to revisit my past in the way she was blessed to do so.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > If that doesn't help temper your sense that I can immediately (this

                                  > very moment) "forgive and release," I don't know what can.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > And that's OK.

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Bless You, Les,

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Tony

                                  > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Lester Demings Jr."

                                  > <secondchronicles7. 14life@> wrote:

                                  > >

                                  > > Anthony,

                                  > >

                                  > > IÂ honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my

                                  > best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.

                                  > > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.

                                  > > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a

                                  > choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to

                                  > make me whole again.

                                  > > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I

                                  > was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better

                                  > relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run

                                  > from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he

                                  > was found dead.

                                  > > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about

                                  > him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug

                                  > addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on

                                  > my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he

                                  > chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love

                                  > and care for his children?

                                  > > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt

                                  > from years ago?

                                  > > I could have not went to the funeral.

                                  > > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my

                                  > mother, my family and myself.

                                  > > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell

                                  > out.

                                  > > But what is all this going to do?

                                  > > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask

                                  > for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.

                                  > > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with

                                  > me now has a fiancee and children of his own.

                                  > > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for

                                  > what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of

                                  > his children in the process?

                                  > > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't

                                  > need to marry him?

                                  > > Should I tell his family what he did to me?

                                  > > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the

                                  > world what he did?

                                  > > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it

                                  > and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and

                                  > God.

                                  > > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop

                                  > getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect

                                  > as pertains to the Word of God.

                                  > > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I

                                  > turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to

                                  > reconcile and get my life together?

                                  > > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful

                                  > things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she

                                  > had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me

                                  > love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to

                                  > me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to

                                  > say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a

                                  > good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it

                                  > now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?

                                  > > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my

                                  > mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was

                                  > growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.

                                  > > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today,

                                  > my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are

                                  > strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year

                                  > and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters

                                  > offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who

                                  > was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out

                                  > money for her to have a good vacation.

                                  > > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright.

                                  > People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you

                                  > imagine what that would have done to her? my family?

                                  > > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and

                                  > psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow

                                  > God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my

                                  > heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but

                                  > He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and

                                  > healing.

                                  > > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance

                                  > with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.

                                  > > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the

                                  > "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and

                                  > that is a trick of the enemy.

                                  > > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't

                                  > allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle

                                  > because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that

                                  > life because that is what I CHOSE to live.

                                  > > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what

                                  > you are looking to gain.

                                  > > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish,

                                  > vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.

                                  > > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I

                                  > feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I

                                  > believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.

                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's

                                  > fashions."

                                  > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright

                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@

                                  > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com

                                  > > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM

                                  > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                                  > >

                                  > > Â

                                  > >

                                  > > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is

                                  > > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.

                                  > > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or

                                  > she

                                  > > does believe.

                                  > >

                                  > > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding

                                  > this

                                  > > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,

                                  > > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be

                                  > > had by some visitation with past pain.

                                  > >

                                  > > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part

                                  > of

                                  > > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right

                                  > > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be

                                  > > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.

                                  > >

                                  > > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports

                                  > MY

                                  > > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne

                                  > > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and

                                  > > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had

                                  > > recently attempted suicide.

                                  > >

                                  > > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to

                                  > > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early

                                  > > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA

                                  > > was of the category of healing of memories.

                                  > >

                                  > > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her

                                  > > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother

                                  > > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through

                                  > the

                                  > > memory and healed of it.

                                  > >

                                  > > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"

                                  > > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the

                                  > > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface

                                  > > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I

                                  > > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.

                                  > >

                                  > > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is

                                  > composed

                                  > > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,

                                  > > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.

                                  > > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The

                                  > > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.

                                  > >

                                  > > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the

                                  > > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are

                                  > dredged

                                  > > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent

                                  > > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,

                                  > > renovation has not occurred.

                                  > >

                                  > > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.

                                  > For

                                  > > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason

                                  > > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:

                                  > > conscious) self.

                                  > >

                                  > > So, just so we are completely clear on this.

                                  > >

                                  > > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.

                                  > > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or

                                  > > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine

                                  > > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)

                                  > >

                                  > > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be

                                  > > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,

                                  > > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to

                                  > Lisa

                                  > > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not

                                  > > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some

                                  > > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity

                                  > trip.

                                  > >

                                  > > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in

                                  > > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is

                                  > only

                                  > > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,

                                  > > and so one.

                                  > >

                                  > > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The

                                  > > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is

                                  > > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:

                                  > > this person is on a pity trip.

                                  > >

                                  > > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and

                                  > > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.

                                  > >

                                  > > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%

                                  > > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway

                                  > > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is

                                  > > akin to calling white black.

                                  > >

                                  > > Tony

                                  > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"

                                  > > debbie@ wrote:

                                  > > >

                                  > > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging

                                  > in

                                  > > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our

                                  > > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,

                                  > > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)

                                  > > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its

                                  > > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral

                                  > > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are

                                  > trying

                                  > > to find the middle ground.

                                  > > >

                                  > > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and

                                  > > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We

                                  > > definitely DO need more relational closeness.

                                  > > >

                                  > > > Debbie

                                  > > >

                                  > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@

                                  > > wrote:

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.

                                  > > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from

                                  > > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than

                                  > others.

                                  > > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you

                                  > > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by

                                  > > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play

                                  > on

                                  > > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus

                                  > conquered

                                  > > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's

                                  > > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons

                                  > and

                                  > > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking

                                  > > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of

                                  > the

                                  > > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are

                                  > stranger

                                  > > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of

                                  > > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as

                                  > > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious

                                  > > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation

                                  > of

                                  > > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it

                                  > > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.

                                  > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@

                                  > > wrote:

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@

                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                                  > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com

                                  > > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Â

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Hey group,

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.

                                  > > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ

                                  > wounds

                                  > > and battle scars?

                                  > > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood

                                  > as

                                  > > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was

                                  > > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of

                                  > what

                                  > > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very

                                  > hurtful

                                  > > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not

                                  > holding

                                  > > it in my heart.

                                  > > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for

                                  > > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but

                                  > when I

                                  > > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and

                                  > moved

                                  > > on.

                                  > > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.

                                  > > > > Everybody was molested.

                                  > > > > Everybody was abused.

                                  > > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ

                                  > way.

                                  > > > > When is it going to stop?

                                  > > > > No, my father was not there.

                                  > > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.

                                  > > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been

                                  > > like?

                                  > > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life

                                  > had

                                  > > been like?

                                  > > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about

                                  > the

                                  > > plan of God for our lives.

                                  > > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means

                                  > even

                                  > > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will

                                  > take

                                  > > it and use it for HIS glory.

                                  > > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the

                                  > enemy

                                  > > to deter us from reaching God.

                                  > > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be

                                  > > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.

                                  > > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his

                                  > > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move

                                  > > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.

                                  > > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Les

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this

                                  > year's

                                  > > fashions."

                                  > > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  > > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>

                                  > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com

                                  > > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM

                                  > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Â

                                  > > > > Hi Debbie,

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called

                                  > The

                                  > > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,

                                  > > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness

                                  > portion

                                  > > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone

                                  > to

                                  > > forgive.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING

                                  > > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).

                                  > > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,

                                  > > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the

                                  > buried

                                  > > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > So, it's pretty raw.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left

                                  > > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I

                                  > keep

                                  > > hearing she might not make it.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not

                                  > > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,

                                  > not

                                  > > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation

                                  > > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS

                                  > > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a

                                  > cruise.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew

                                  > her

                                  > > dad. He said five years.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual

                                  > > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to

                                  > > lessen some.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate

                                  > sense

                                  > > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a

                                  > fair

                                  > > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a

                                  > > bit to crack this hard nut.

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > Tony

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"

                                  > > <debbie@> wrote:

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to

                                  > your

                                  > > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for

                                  > > you, as well as for others.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that

                                  > > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger

                                  > > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have

                                  > > those tendencies.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died

                                  > for

                                  > > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,

                                  > > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd

                                  > > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own

                                  > > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to

                                  > my

                                  > > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning.

                                  > He

                                  > > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life

                                  > then.

                                  > > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost

                                  > > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I

                                  > > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real

                                  > > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love

                                  > â€"

                                  > > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of

                                  > > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an

                                  > > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have

                                  > > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even

                                  > > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives

                                  > me

                                  > > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I

                                  > must

                                  > > be at times.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has

                                  > been

                                  > > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves

                                  > it.

                                  > > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who

                                  > > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.

                                  > > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source

                                  > â€"

                                  > > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect

                                  > with

                                  > > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply

                                  > cannot

                                  > > come without that.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the

                                  > > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we

                                  > have

                                  > > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.

                                  > > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or

                                  > contrary,

                                  > > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us

                                  > that

                                  > > freedom. Amen?

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap,

                                  > we

                                  > > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all

                                  > > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He

                                  > is

                                  > > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has

                                  > > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his

                                  > neck

                                  > > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be

                                  > > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and

                                  > > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.

                                  > > Just think of me as a sister.

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Best,

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > Debbie

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"

                                  > > <tonyb0505@> wrote:

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends

                                  > > and to support each other, almost daily.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall

                                  > > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression

                                  > > and hopelessness.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:

                                  > > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to

                                  > contact

                                  > > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from

                                  > > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I

                                  > feel

                                  > > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.

                                  > > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good

                                  > > qualities.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most

                                  > part

                                  > > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to

                                  > be

                                  > > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father

                                  > or

                                  > > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it

                                  > seems

                                  > > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less

                                  > > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other

                                  > hand,

                                  > > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it

                                  > as

                                  > > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am

                                  > > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > I don't know....

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > Tony

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"

                                  > > <debbie@> wrote:

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey

                                  > with

                                  > > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a

                                  > confusing

                                  > > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a

                                  > simple

                                  > > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have

                                  > less

                                  > > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and

                                  > > over.

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now

                                  > in

                                  > > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I

                                  > > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our

                                  > > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I

                                  > > also had to grow through that realization.

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to

                                  > > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings

                                  > > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they

                                  > > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.

                                  > > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the

                                  > > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that

                                  > happened

                                  > > because I reached out, as you did.

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open

                                  > > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's

                                  > > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"

                                  > > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or

                                  > > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > Best,

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > Debbie

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani

                                  > > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for

                                  > > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional

                                  > > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to

                                  > be

                                  > > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand

                                  > what

                                  > > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to

                                  > > become of better father to little Paul.

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to

                                  > > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific

                                  > > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when

                                  > I

                                  > > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner

                                  > > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved

                                  > it.

                                  > > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when

                                  > I

                                  > > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a

                                  > > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved

                                  > me.

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal

                                  > > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little

                                  > > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my

                                  > > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do

                                  > some

                                  > > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I

                                  > > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start

                                  > > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in

                                  > the

                                  > > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love

                                  > > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,

                                  > > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers

                                  > about

                                  > > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read

                                  > > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,

                                  > > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm

                                  > > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him

                                  > > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more

                                  > > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed

                                  > > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We

                                  > still

                                  > > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is

                                  > because

                                  > > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture

                                  > > was too small.

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is

                                  > > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life

                                  > that

                                  > > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of

                                  > > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor

                                  > last

                                  > > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any

                                  > > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can

                                  > comprehend

                                  > > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and

                                  > open

                                  > > our selves up to him!

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > Your brother,

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > Paul

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________

                                  > > _________ _

                                  > > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM

                                  > > protection.

                                  > > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  > > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > > >

                                  > > > > > >

                                  > > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > >

                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  > > > >

                                  > > >

                                  > >

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                                  > >

                                  > >

                                  > >

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                                  > >

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                                  > >

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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lester Demings Jr.
                                  First, let me explain something that I believe. God did not make homosexuals nor has He made heterosexuals. God created MAN and WO-MAN- nothing besides of
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 23, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    First, let me explain something that I believe.
                                    God did not make homosexuals nor has He made heterosexuals.
                                    God created MAN and WO-MAN- nothing besides of between that. We need to first stop using scientific terms to explain spiritual situations.
                                    Can someone find for me in scripture where God created a heterosexual? homosexual? bisexual?
                                    I doubt you will- so as I stated homosexuality is a CHOICE- not something you are born with.
                                    However, we are ALL born in sin- we are not born with a particular sin.
                                    Life is about choices- we can't blame God for the choices that we've made.
                                    All these titles do is make people feel good about where they are in their situation.
                                    We confuse people when we take the Word of God and measure it against man's knowledge- it doesn't work- it won't work.
                                    If you are a Christian (which I believe you are) the Word of God should be your ultimate answer to your life questions.
                                    Even if you do believe that you were "born" homosexual what did Jesus say?
                                    "Ye must be born AGAIN."
                                    Next, from what you are saying you also agree that God doesn't need to forgive you?
                                    The Word states that if you can't forgive then you won't be forgiven.
                                    I honestly don't know your history however I can say that if you continue to hold to hurts ad search for hurts how will you ever progress in life and/or you walk with God?
                                    What is holding you back from forgiving?
                                    I have a question about this statement you made:

                                    "If, for example, some guy is highly homosexual in
                                    orientation, cannot be with a woman (behave heterosexually) , and lives a
                                    celibate lifestyle, I would say he is a homosexual tree that produces
                                    repressed homosexual fruit."

                                    So basically, what you are saying is that even if a person is celeibate they are yet homosexual but just repressing their homosexual affections?
                                    This statement is a statement that I hear from pro-homosexuals all the time.
                                    What message are you stating here?



                                     "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's fashions."
                                    Lillian Hellman, Playwright




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Anthony <tonyb0505@...>
                                    To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 5:54:48 PM
                                    Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.

                                     

                                    Hi Les,

                                    I think I just want to reply to what I see as fairly significant points.

                                    You wrote:

                                    "However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have
                                    a choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                                    make me whole again."

                                    To this, I do not know what to do except to repeat Lisa's example.
                                    She wasn't even aware of anything to forgive or release. It seems
                                    to me that you are making assumptions about the process of forgiving and
                                    releasing. Like anyone can do it right now if they are truly willing to
                                    do so.

                                    All I can say on the matter is that I am aware of stuff, but I seem
                                    unable to release it. Perhaps time will indicate that for me the
                                    process of doing so has taken place, is taking place, and is ongoing. I
                                    happen to be convinced that I am presently unable to completely forgive
                                    and release at the present time and this seems to be a notion you cannot
                                    agree with, which is fine.

                                    But, to go back to Lisa, she was perfectly unable to forgive and release
                                    as well and I do not for one second believe her problem was insincerity,
                                    or a desire to cling to homosexuality, or a rebellious heart.

                                    None of what I am saying is endorsing holding onto anger or behaving in
                                    an inappropriate manner toward anyone (including any who have hurt me),
                                    or embracing homosexuality.

                                    You wrote:

                                    "Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I
                                    won't allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                                    because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                                    life because that is what I CHOSE to live."

                                    There is no way I chose to have the homosexual inclination I have. I
                                    differ with you as to what a homosexual is. "Ye shall know a tree
                                    by its fruit." If, for example, some guy is highly homosexual in
                                    orientation, cannot be with a woman (behave heterosexually) , and lives a
                                    celibate lifestyle, I would say he is a homosexual tree that produces
                                    repressed homosexual fruit.

                                    God wants to change who we are and I do not believe we become "no
                                    longer homosexual" by choosing not to engage in homosexual
                                    practices. (This may help, but I think indirectly such as by curbing
                                    reinforcement. ) We become "no longer homosexual" by somehow
                                    permitting God to renovate our hearts and a renovated heart no longer
                                    engages in homosexual behaviors because the heart is no longer
                                    homosexual.

                                    And just so you know…

                                    Except for one single time, I have not had sex with a male since I was
                                    15 years old. I told a pretty skilled counselor my life and she was
                                    absolutely shocked that with my background, I did not choose to have a
                                    few gay lovers.

                                    She couldn't believe it! (Well, my repetitions finally sank in.
                                    "How many gay lovers have you had?" "None." Repeat the
                                    question and answer a half dozen times.)

                                    "Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but
                                    I feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and
                                    I believe you need to let it go before it consumes you."

                                    Think Lisa. I think I am very much like her except I have somehow not
                                    been enabled to revisit my past in the way she was blessed to do so.

                                    If that doesn't help temper your sense that I can immediately (this
                                    very moment) "forgive and release," I don't know what can.

                                    And that's OK.

                                    Bless You, Les,

                                    Tony
                                    --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Lester Demings Jr."
                                    <secondchronicles7. 14life@.. .> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Anthony,
                                    >
                                    > IÂ honestly didn't understand all that you posted so I will do my
                                    best to see if I understood what I could about what you posted.
                                    > In no way am I saying forgive, forget and move on.
                                    > However, I am saying that what has happened to me in my past I have a
                                    choice to either hold on to it or forgive and release it to god to
                                    make me whole again.
                                    > My father passed in August 2004. In April 2004 I moved home and I
                                    was determined to reconcile with him and see if I could get a better
                                    relationship with him. However, when I would see my father he would run
                                    from me. I didn't understand why. But before I could talk to him he
                                    was found dead.
                                    > Now that I am 32 years old, 6 years later should I yet be angry about
                                    him leaving our family? Should I yet be angry that he was a drug
                                    addict and an alcoholic? Should I yet be angry that he put his hands on
                                    my mother on more than one occasion? Should I yet be angry because he
                                    chose to allow his anger towards my mother seperate him from the love
                                    and care for his children?
                                    > What good is that going to do to hold on to pain, anger and hurt
                                    from years ago?
                                    > I could have not went to the funeral.
                                    > I could have got upset and spoke at his funeral about how he wrong my
                                    mother, my family and myself.
                                    > I could have stood over his body and hit him until the stuffing fell
                                    out.
                                    > But what is all this going to do?
                                    > My father knows what he did- whether he chose to own up to it and ask
                                    for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and God.
                                    > As far as my molestation is concerned the young man who "messed" with
                                    me now has a fiancee and children of his own.
                                    > Do I now (after over 20yrs) make it my mission to make him pay for
                                    what he did to me? Destroying his fiancee's life and the lives of
                                    his children in the process?
                                    > What should I do go to the wedding and stand up and say she doesn't
                                    need to marry him?
                                    > Should I tell his family what he did to me?
                                    > Should I start a website and put his name and picture up telling the
                                    world what he did?
                                    > He knows what happened between us- whether he chose to own up to it
                                    and ask for forgiveness is not my issue. That is an issue between he and
                                    God.
                                    > Again, I am not saying just "get over it" I am saying we need to stop
                                    getting overly emotional and deal with our feelings in the right aspect
                                    as pertains to the Word of God.
                                    > Now that my father is dead should I have continued drinking until I
                                    turned into an alcoholic blaming his death for not being able to
                                    reconcile and get my life together?
                                    > I'll even say this as well. My mother said some mean and hurtful
                                    things to me growing up. She told me on 3 ooccasions that she wish she
                                    had not had me. She called me ugly, stupid, dumb. She barely showed me
                                    love. I would listen to my mother brag on my brother but when it came to
                                    me she had almost nothing to say unless she had something negative to
                                    say. I got kicked out of the house. My brother and two sisters enjoyed a
                                    good life while I endured emotional and mental pain but what good is it
                                    now to drudge up all this at a family meeting?
                                    > Today, my family is strong. We love each other. Just recently, my
                                    mother sent me a card apologizing for all that I endured when I was
                                    growing up. She even told me I was her best friend.
                                    > Do you think I would have got this speaking out of my feelings? Today,
                                    my mother brags about me being the only one of her children who are
                                    strong enough to make it out in this world. We went on vacation one year
                                    and her bank messed up her money do you think my brother, or two sisters
                                    offered anything to her? But you know who did? ME!!! The SAME child who
                                    was told I wouldn't be nothing reached in MY bank account and pulled out
                                    money for her to have a good vacation.
                                    > When we allow GOD to do His job He works everything out alright.
                                    People told me, "Confront your mother. Tell her how you feel." Can you
                                    imagine what that would have done to her? my family?
                                    > Yes, I suffered emotionally for many years. I suffered mentally and
                                    psychologically for many years but when I learned to forgive and allow
                                    God to heal me He did just that and NOW I can say that I am healed in my
                                    heart from the hurts of the past. Then, not only has God healed me but
                                    He has given me a means and ministry to tell others of his love and
                                    healing.
                                    > In this society we are too emotional and especially in this instance
                                    with homosexuality I am not buying into it- not one bit.
                                    > Homosexuals are using emotionalism and victimization to support the
                                    "mantra" of their lifestyle and gain footing in the hearts of people and
                                    that is a trick of the enemy.
                                    > Homosexuality is a CHOICE not something you are born with and I won't
                                    allow myself to be deceived to believe that I lived that lifestyle
                                    because I was molested. That may have been a factor but I lived that
                                    life because that is what I CHOSE to live.
                                    > Reconciliation is a good thing but ONLY if its reconciliation is what
                                    you are looking to gain.
                                    > However, in my experience and research there is always a selfish,
                                    vengeful, underlying reason and that is not of God.
                                    > Anthony, I don't know you and I don't like to make assumptions but I
                                    feel like you are yet carrying around pain and hurt from your past and I
                                    believe you need to let it go before it consumes you.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this year's
                                    fashions."
                                    > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > From: Anthony tonyb0505@.. .
                                    > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 10:20:01 AM
                                    > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                    >
                                    > Â
                                    >
                                    > This post is as direct as I can possibly make it. None of it is
                                    > personal. It is not saying anything about Les or Paul or anyone else.
                                    > Furthermore, I respect the right of anyone to believe whatever he or
                                    she
                                    > does believe.
                                    >
                                    > First, Debbie, I appreciate your conciliatory flavor, but regarding
                                    this
                                    > topic, I happen to believe its conciliation is dependent on falsehood,
                                    > which is that Les and Paul's belief entertains any benefit can be
                                    > had by some visitation with past pain.
                                    >
                                    > I see none of this in their words and I am assuming this is not part
                                    of
                                    > their belief system. They can correct me if I am wrong. If I am right
                                    > Debbie, reconciliation is not rationally obtainable. It can only be
                                    > arrived at (so-called) by invoking a false premise.
                                    >
                                    > My personal favorite example of a real life occurrence that supports
                                    MY
                                    > belief system is Lisa's Story, the first example offered by Leanne
                                    > Payne in her book The Broken Image. Lisa was a suicidal lesbian and
                                    > she was at the point of hopelessness and despair. Indeed, she had
                                    > recently attempted suicide.
                                    >
                                    > To make a long story shorter, Leanne Payne personally ministered to
                                    > Lisa. It was found that Lisa lacked memory of three years of her early
                                    > childhood. Leanne thus knew that for Lisa, the core issue with her SSA
                                    > was of the category of healing of memories.
                                    >
                                    > Lisa was shown the root memory. She was abused by her father, her
                                    > mother came upon them and shrieked. When Lisa walked toward her mother
                                    > to console her, her mother pushed her away. Lisa was guided through
                                    the
                                    > memory and healed of it.
                                    >
                                    > To illustrate my belief system, picture a glass of water, say 8"
                                    > tall with 6" of water. The 6" of water represent the
                                    > subconscious mind, the 2" the conscious mind. The water surface
                                    > represents the interface between conscious and subconscious mind. I
                                    > think the Bible refers to this as the veil.
                                    >
                                    > Consider a cylindrical object somewhere under the water. It is
                                    composed
                                    > of two parts that are joined. One part is unresolved emotional pain,
                                    > the other, some lie that is believed. The object is under the water.
                                    > Its depth is according to the intensity of the emotional trauma. The
                                    > more traumatic, the deeper under the surface it resides.
                                    >
                                    > Some people have SSA due to having one or more such objects under the
                                    > water. For them, true healing can only occur if the objects are
                                    dredged
                                    > up to the surface. If not, even if such people could live abstinent
                                    > lives, they would be like dry drunks. Where it really matters,
                                    > renovation has not occurred.
                                    >
                                    > Other people may have SSA and have no such objects under the water.
                                    For
                                    > these people, cognitive renovation is sufficient for the simple reason
                                    > that this is where the problems lie, in their cognitive (read:
                                    > conscious) self.
                                    >
                                    > So, just so we are completely clear on this.
                                    >
                                    > I 100% reject the belief system of Paul Silen and Les on this matter.
                                    > Furthermore, I find it to be heinous. Mark this, I do not find Les or
                                    > Paul to be heinous, I find their belief to be heinous. (I do not fine
                                    > THEM to be heinous, I am referring to a belief.)
                                    >
                                    > That belief system tells a Lisa to "white knuckle it and she will be
                                    > fine." In other words, it leaves her in her incredibly unhealed,
                                    > deprived, and suicidal predicament. This belief system suggests to
                                    Lisa
                                    > that the very thing she needs for healing, is something she ought not
                                    > pursue. In fact, this position seems to be saying Lisa is bad in some
                                    > way should she pursue it, like maybe she wants to be on some pity
                                    trip.
                                    >
                                    > This position is insisting that healing cannot be found there when in
                                    > truth, for some people, this is the central facet where healing is
                                    only
                                    > possible. In other words, up is down, left is right, white is black,
                                    > and so one.
                                    >
                                    > This extends itself to one other point, which I just alluded to. The
                                    > position of Les and Paul seems to easily imply that a person who is
                                    > trying to revisit past pain is doing so for wrong motives. Such as:
                                    > this person is on a pity trip.
                                    >
                                    > To this, I will only say that I think this is a judgment of people and
                                    > as such, it ought be done extremely sparingly, if at all.
                                    >
                                    > In closing, I have read the admonition of Les and Paul and I 100%
                                    > categorically denounce it as falsehood. What they suggest is a pathway
                                    > to nothing positive is sometimes the only pathway to healing. It is
                                    > akin to calling white black.
                                    >
                                    > Tony
                                    > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                    > debbie@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Guys, I think we what we have been seeing is the pendulum swinging
                                    in
                                    > the other direction in response to the realization that: (1) our
                                    > parents'/grandparen ts' generation was somewhat emotionally repressed,
                                    > albeit tough in a very good way; and (2) the next generation (Boomers)
                                    > were cut loose and exposed to the sexual revolution, which brought its
                                    > own inherent problems in eliminating necessary behavioral and moral
                                    > boundaries (hence, feelings of loss and even guilt). Maybe we are
                                    trying
                                    > to find the middle ground.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps what we need most is a dose of common sense, tempered and
                                    > informed by God-sense. We probably do NOT need more psychology. We
                                    > definitely DO need more relational closeness.
                                    > >
                                    > > Debbie
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Silen p_csilen@
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Lester, I have to agree with you. Society has gone way overboard.
                                    > Yes, as kids we have all had bad things happen to us, ranging from
                                    > apathy to sexual abuse. Yes, some of us got dumped on more than
                                    others.
                                    > For those of us that this applies, Live goes on! Put it all behind you
                                    > and get on with it! The only thing constructive that can be done by
                                    > carry your hurtful resentments around with you is that they will play
                                    on
                                    > you like an opiate and will be every bit as distructive. Jesus
                                    conquered
                                    > his death. Its time that we conquered ours.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yes, society has gone way overboard. It started back in the 80's
                                    > when pictures of missing kids were splattered all over milk cartons
                                    and
                                    > shopping bags, the implication being that there's a boogy man lurking
                                    > behind every bush waiting to abduct some innocent child. The fact of
                                    the
                                    > matter is that less than one percent of these missing kids are
                                    stranger
                                    > abductions. As a result adults are scared to death to show any kind of
                                    > affection to a child for fear of legal reprisals. Even something as
                                    > beneign as changing a baby's diaper can get you into some serious
                                    > trouble. What do we have to show for this mass hysteria? a generation
                                    of
                                    > young people who are so repressed. Its even worse in many way than it
                                    > was in the Victorian eara of the nineteenth century.
                                    > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > From: Lester Demings Jr. secondchronicles7. 14life@
                                    > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                    > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 5:04 PM
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Â
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hey group,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > IÂ must ask a question at this point.
                                    > > > Why are we pulling the scabs and soars off of healedÂ
                                    wounds
                                    > and battle scars?
                                    > > > Let me begin by saying I come from a not-so-good childhood
                                    as
                                    > well. My father left our family when I was 4 years old. My mother was
                                    > not very loving (emotionally) or compassionate nor understanding of
                                    what
                                    > I as a young man was dealing with in my life. She said some very
                                    hurtful
                                    > things to me growing up; very hurtful but you know what I am not
                                    holding
                                    > it in my heart.
                                    > > > Tony, there is NOTHING you can do about your father but pray for
                                    > him. I watched my father on a few occasions hit my mother but
                                    when I
                                    > stood over his casket I forgave him, told him I loved him and
                                    moved
                                    > on.
                                    > > > This society today is going overboard with the "emotional" touch.
                                    > > > Everybody was molested.
                                    > > > Everybody was abused.
                                    > > > Everybody was wounded emotionally and physically in someÂ
                                    way.
                                    > > > When is it going to stop?
                                    > > > No, my father was not there.
                                    > > > No, my mother was not there emotionally.
                                    > > > However, if my father had been there what would my life had been
                                    > like?
                                    > > > If my mother had coddled me and cooed over me what would my life
                                    had
                                    > been like?
                                    > > > We should stop looking at our lives as disasters and think about
                                    the
                                    > plan of God for our lives.
                                    > > > Romans 8:28 says that ALL things for work together; this means
                                    even
                                    > the bad the enemy thought was going to destroy us God can and will
                                    take
                                    > it and use it for HIS glory.
                                    > > > We need to teach forgiveness and move on and stop allowing the
                                    enemy
                                    > to deter us from reaching God.
                                    > > > I hope I didn't offend anyone but we need to stand up and be
                                    > soldiers in this fight that we fight everyday.
                                    > > > I am thankful to God for the time that the young man had with his
                                    > father and the healing that took place but don't open old wounds- move
                                    > forward and build from what you have and allow God to heal the hurts.
                                    > > > I hope you all understand what I am saying.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Les
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Â "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to suit this
                                    year's
                                    > fashions."
                                    > > > Lillian Hellman, Playwright
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                    > > > From: Anthony tonyb0505@yahoo. com>
                                    > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 9:45:21 AM
                                    > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: Progress update.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Â
                                    > > > Hi Debbie,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I'm 51 and a couple years ago, I did this Christian thing called
                                    The
                                    > Road Adventure which sort of helps folks better understand themselves,
                                    > especially with respect to their wounds. We had this forgiveness
                                    portion
                                    > and were asked to forgive someone. I said I didn't really have anyone
                                    to
                                    > forgive.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I had gone through the process with my mother and I felt NOTHING
                                    > with respect to my father (no anger whatsoever so what's to forgive?).
                                    > Then one of the trainers came by and basically asked me what i meant,
                                    > saying she also had an alcoholic absent, abusive father.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To make a long story shorter, I have only started feeling the
                                    buried
                                    > rage maybe 6-12 months ago.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > So, it's pretty raw.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My dad left my mom and remarried (a woman my age) and then he left
                                    > her. He has two daughters from that marriage. One is anorexic and I
                                    keep
                                    > hearing she might not make it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > One of the last times I spoke to my dad, he told me he decided not
                                    > to go to his daughter's HS graduation, this was the other daughter,
                                    not
                                    > the anorexic. So, he opted out of attending his daughter's graduation
                                    > and being able to see his sick daughter as well.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Two months later, he was off on a cruise. He couldn't afford a HS
                                    > graduation he had 18 years to prepare for, but he could afford a
                                    cruise.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My nephew told me my sick half sister asked him how long he knew
                                    her
                                    > dad. He said five years.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > She said that's longer than she knew him.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > My emotional cup is still a little full while my intellectual
                                    > capacity knows that I ought to reach out to him in unconditional love.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I'm kind of gearing up for it, but I would like the emotions to
                                    > lessen some.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > One other thing. It's been confirmed that I had an inadequate
                                    sense
                                    > of being due to events around prebirth through newborn. There was a
                                    fair
                                    > amount of abuse from my mother at ~6.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I shut down pretty much a very long time ago and it's gonna take a
                                    > bit to crack this hard nut.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thanks, sister (and that means a lot to me)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tony
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                    > <debbie@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'm sure glad you and Paul are friends, Tony. His response to
                                    your
                                    > post here, if he gives one, will likely be instructive and helpful for
                                    > you, as well as for others.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It's predictable that another brother's success in an area that
                                    > has been so painful for you would bring some moments of sorrow, anger
                                    > and perhaps bitterness. That's merely a human being human. We all have
                                    > those tendencies.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hard as it is for us to wrap our hearts around it, Christ died
                                    for
                                    > everyone, even those pieces of &#$@, as you say your father is to you.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yeah, I hated my own dad for a long time, too. Even knowing,
                                    > because my mom had told me, about some of the tough stuff he'd
                                    > experienced as a child and a young man, I still blamed him for my own
                                    > pain. When I tentatively reached out to him and asked him to come to
                                    my
                                    > college graduation, it was a bittersweet day. But it was a beginning.
                                    He
                                    > was really just beginning to allow God's grace to work in his life
                                    then.
                                    > He had a long way to go, but we gradually reconnected. It was almost
                                    > like connecting for the first time, really. He is still living, and I
                                    > have promised to take him to lunch soon. One of our first real
                                    > meaningful times together many years back was a lunch date.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > You are right in that it does take a divine sort of love
                                    â€"
                                    > the kind Christ had to have to willingly sacrifice his life for all of
                                    > us sinners â€" to even begin to soften our hearts toward an
                                    > undeserving parent or anyone who has betrayed or wounded us. I have
                                    > found that the discipline of loving difficult people (I'm not even
                                    > talking about the really heinous ones) does something to me. It gives
                                    me
                                    > more insight into how Christ must love me as I know how difficult I
                                    must
                                    > be at times.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Forgiveness is akin to recyling grace, the same kind that has
                                    been
                                    > given to us from above. We don't extend it because someone deserves
                                    it.
                                    > It is more for ourselves. And it is in obedience to our Lord, who
                                    > commands it. It is hard because it is supposed to be.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > These bits of advice can easily sound like Christian platitudes.
                                    > That's why I always direct those who are hurting to the source
                                    â€"
                                    > the Scriptures â€" and to their knees where they can connect
                                    with
                                    > the God who knows them intimately (see Psalm 139). Healing simply
                                    cannot
                                    > come without that.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Perhaps Paul and I are in the minority. Though we all have the
                                    > same divine tools with which to work, perhaps most of us believe we
                                    have
                                    > lost the opportunity to use them while we still have it in this life.
                                    > Once a parent is gone or appears to be irretrievably absent or
                                    contrary,
                                    > we can feel defeated. But we still retain our choices. God gives us
                                    that
                                    > freedom. Amen?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hard as it is to go to Daddy (Abba) God and climb into His lap,
                                    we
                                    > can and must do it. Boy, girl â€" it matters little. We are all
                                    > wounded children inside. Same psyches, same emotions, same needs. He
                                    is
                                    > waiting for all His children to come home. And because we know He has
                                    > said it is better for someone to have a millstone placed around his
                                    neck
                                    > and be cast into the depths than to harm His little ones, we can be
                                    > assured that His judgment seat awaits those who remain reprobate and
                                    > apart from Him. That relieves us of the burden of hatred.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I hope this makes sense, Tony. I, too, will be praying for you.
                                    > Just think of me as a sister.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Best,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Debbie
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "Anthony"
                                    > <tonyb0505@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Paul is my good friend. We converse over the phone as friends
                                    > and to support each other, almost daily.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > That being said, while I am glad for Paul, the overall
                                    > impression his note left on me is a rather strong sense of depression
                                    > and hopelessness.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I wrote the following as part of an email to Paul:
                                    > > > > > Admitting a present negative bias:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > 1. I have a father I am finding it hard to ever want to
                                    contact
                                    > again. You have a father that you think is "one of the best."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > 2. In order to love my father, I need to summon the love from
                                    > above because I am unable to love him according to anything good. I
                                    feel
                                    > like it's tantamount to loving a piece of shit sitting on a sidewalk.
                                    > You have a father who, while not perfect, you can love for good
                                    > qualities.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > 3. You have ready access to your little Paul. For the most
                                    part
                                    > (and likely outside of being in some emotional state that helps me to
                                    be
                                    > "in tune") I cannot seem to access my little (wounded) child..
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > 4. In my intellect, I realize a need to be held by my father
                                    or
                                    > a father-surrogate. In the feeling part of me, I sense no need, it
                                    seems
                                    > totally bizarre, and I feel weird even thinking about it, much less
                                    > actually having it. I also have no access to it. You, on the other
                                    hand,
                                    > see the need both intellectually and in your feelings, do not see it
                                    as
                                    > bizarre, and have had it and are having it.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > 5. You have ready access to your father and I do not and am
                                    > without any mentors and am presently not hopeful that I ever will.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yeah, it must be nice to have such tools in one's toolbox.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I don't know....
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Tony
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "DebbieThurman"
                                    > <debbie@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Paul, it is gratifying to hear about your healing journey
                                    with
                                    > your dad. Isn't it something how we can put so much stock in a
                                    confusing
                                    > or painful memory from childhood that we may find out later has a
                                    simple
                                    > explanation? If we could all only communicate better, we might have
                                    less
                                    > drama in our lives! I have had to prove this maxim to myself over and
                                    > over.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I know others have not been as blessed as you are right now
                                    in
                                    > relating to their parents. Our relationships are all over the map. I
                                    > guess I am one of the fortunate ones, too. It is no mystery that our
                                    > fathers, especially, shape our view of God (sometimes unwittingly) . I
                                    > also had to grow through that realization.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I am blessed to have both parents living, and I am able to
                                    > have meaningful conversations with them both. Every one of us siblings
                                    > was wounded in some way growing up. But my mom and dad, though they
                                    > divorced when I was 15, really never stopped loving each other.
                                    > Complicated story. And God surely has been "restoring the years the
                                    > locust has eaten" in our lives, little by little. Some of that
                                    happened
                                    > because I reached out, as you did.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > You have shown us again that taking the first step can open
                                    > the door. Perhaps someone else out there needs to know this. If it's
                                    > true that "half the world is waiting for the other half to say hello,"
                                    > perhaps it's also true that half are waiting to hear "I love you" or
                                    > "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Best,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Debbie
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Paul Gaetani
                                    > <paulgaetani@ > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Hello my fellow warriors!
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > As many of you know, I have recently enlisted my dad for
                                    > help in my healing journey, in addition to working with a professional
                                    > counselor. One of the things that my counselor has recommended is to
                                    be
                                    > more aware of the feelings of my inner child. To better understand
                                    what
                                    > unmet needs he is expressing and find a healthy release, in effect, to
                                    > become of better father to little Paul.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Also, something that I have done in the past in order to
                                    > better understand myself and my brokenness, is identify specific
                                    > examples of when I felt rejected by my dad. One of those happened when
                                    I
                                    > was very little. As a small boy, my dad would take me in his recliner
                                    > with him and cuddle with me as he watched tv, and I absolutely loved
                                    it.
                                    > I always felt so safe and secure and loved and accepted. Sometime when
                                    I
                                    > was about 4 or 5, that stopped. I don't know why it stopped, but as a
                                    > hyper-sensitive child, I felt it was because my dad no longer loved
                                    me.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > In my conversations with little Paul, he started to reveal
                                    > he was most upset about the recliner, and he wanted to mourn a little
                                    > bit with dad. So, I mustered up my courage again, went over to my
                                    > parents' house just after lunch and told my dad that I needed to do
                                    some
                                    > crying with him to heal some past hurts. Of course, he said okay (I
                                    > think I have the most awesomest dad in the world!). I let myself start
                                    > crying, and while he held me in his arms I said, "I loved sitting in
                                    the
                                    > green recliner with you and when it stopped, I thought you didn't love
                                    > me anymore." He held me while I cried, and told me he always loved me,
                                    > and he told me how he used to boast to his friends and co-workers
                                    about
                                    > how smart I was, about how proud he was of me, how I could read
                                    > something once and fully comprehend it. I wept for several minutes,
                                    > cleaned up a bit, and then just laid against his breast with his arm
                                    > around for for a while. We chatted for a bit after, I told him
                                    > > > how much I loved him, said that I might have to do this a few more
                                    > times. My mom was in and around while this happened, so she witnessed
                                    > much of it, while being very lovingly respectful of our space. We
                                    still
                                    > don't know why it stopped, but my mom and dad are thinking it is
                                    because
                                    > my mom changed all the furniture about this time and the new furniture
                                    > was too small.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I cannot express my feelings completely. What I can say is
                                    > that every single sexual experience that I have ever had in my life
                                    that
                                    > gave me any satisfaction was clearly a counterfeit for this kind of
                                    > deep, open, loving relationship with my dad. I said to my counselor
                                    last
                                    > week, after initially telling my dad, "I don't know how I can be any
                                    > happier!" Well, once again, God has shown me how little I can
                                    comprehend
                                    > the intensity of the joy of his blessings when we trust on him and
                                    open
                                    > our selves up to him!
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Your brother,
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Paul
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                    > _________ _
                                    > > > > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM
                                    > protection.
                                    > > > > > > > http://clk.atdmt com/GBL/go/ 210850552/ direct/01/
                                    > > > > > > >
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