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Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?

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  • Thomas Morey
    Dear Howrudun and Debbie,   Thank you for making the SBC s history clear on this issue. I stand corrected.   I guess it just goes to show you that whatever
    Message 1 of 52 , Jul 18 12:05 PM
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      Dear Howrudun and Debbie,
       
      Thank you for making the SBC's history clear on this issue. I stand corrected.
       
      I guess it just goes to show you that whatever one wants to believe about the history of a denomination, or even what the Bible says, one can easily misinterpret the record, as I did. I must've gotten the SBC's contemporary view about slavery confused with their original view that actually had a major part in leading to their establishment as a denomination.
       
      However, despite this error on my part, please investigate American history concerning the abolitionist movement. If you filter out all the revisionist propaganda, which is very easy to do (i.e., lack of historical references), you'll find that the overwhelming majority were Christians. Again, Dave Barton's Wallbuilders.com is an excellent website to investigate. (Btw, even Alex Haley's "Roots" depicts the abolitionists peacefully protesting while singing hymns!)
                
      Most important of all, the Holy Scriptures indicate clearly that slavetrading (andrapodistais)is a sin (1 Timothy 1:10), and that being a slave is not preferable. Most translations translate this Koine Greek word as "kidnapper", but the literal meaning is "slavetrader". In addition, the Apostle Paul, although he emphasized the critical importance of seeking liberty in the Spirit, over one's wordly status, he makes it very clear that seeking one's freedom from the bonds of slavery is to be preferred, if at all possible without losing one's focus on what is most important. He says, "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able to become free, rather do that, but do not let it be a care to you. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, each one is to remain with God in
      that condition in which he was called." (1 Corinthians 7:21-24)
       
      Therefore, what I'm saying is that it is a very weak argument indeed, to say the least, if one claims that the Pauline New Testament letters are inherently discriminatory against particular legitimate people groups and social institutions, to which those who identify as homosexual claim to be, and uses a plausible parallel argument that Pauline literature actually condones the institution of slavery in an attempt to strengthen their position. 
       
      Again, sorry for the error.
       
      Blessings,
       
      Tom  
         
      --- On Sat, 7/18/09, aformer54 <debbie@...> wrote:


      From: aformer54 <debbie@...>
      Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, July 18, 2009, 10:37 AM


       



      FYI, here is the link to the actual SBC position on slavery from a 1995 source document — a resolution on the SBC Web site:

      http://www.sbc net/resolutions/ amResolution. asp?ID=899

      I am a Southern Baptist (I am a Christian, first and foremost), and one who has left any gay identification I may have had behind me, along with my same-sex attractions. So I guess I am a mirror image of you in some ways, "howrudun."

      Debbie
      TheFormers.com

      --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, "howrudun" <howrudun@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Tom, the Southern Baptists actually were intensely pro slavery. Read the history on it. The baptist were a denomination that included norther and southern churches. the debate on slavery split the church. This split occurred prior to the South succeeding from the Union. The issue was only about slavery. The southern churches basically said it was OK beause it was Biblically official and that the northern churches shouldn't meddle. The northern churches said it was sinful and unjust and needed to be eliminated from society but especially needed to be eliminated from the church. The only reason that Southern Baptist split from the northers churches and came into existence is their stand on slavery. Granted the SBC has come a long way since then and isn't a racially motivated denomination today but the historical beginnings still are true.
      > I am a former Southern Baptist minister. I know the history!
      >
      > PS: Yes I am a gay Christian as well.
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Howrudun
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey <moreytom@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Sarah,
      > >  
      > > Dear Sarah,
      > >  
      > > The Baptists (I guess you mean the Southern Baptist convention) never supported slavery. Other than for obvious reasons, the Bible actually condemns slavetrading in 1 Timothy 1:10! In fact, most abolitionists in the early 1800's were indeed Christians. I believe you are getting your information from those who unfortunately are revisionists of American history. I suggest reading David Barton's volumes on this at www.wallbuilders. com.
      > >  
      > > Blessings,
      > >  
      > > Tom  
      > >
      > > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ >
      > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 7:41 PM
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > > AH Dude, Gay people can get married.  All your arguing is the same that went on for thousands of years to support Slavery, that is why Babtist finally got around to saying they are sorry for supporting African American Slavery! 
      > >
      > > --- On Sun, 6/28/09, aformer54 <debbie@theformers. com> wrote:
      > >
      > > From: aformer54 <debbie@theformers. com>
      > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 8:36 AM
      > >
      > > Thank you, Tom. Yes, it was well worth it for the greater benefit of all, including Sarah, for you to give such a detailed answer. You are appreciated, brother.
      > >
      > > Debbie
      > >
      > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, moreytom@ wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Dear Sarah,
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > I'm not sure whether you really do desire a reply from me regarding your arguments about homosexuality and what the Bible says about the issue. But, I guess I'll just choose to respond and believe that you do until you say otherwise, as well as for the sake of other ExGDBd members who may also have similar questions.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Other than already what I shared about how Jesus directly addressed the issue of His will for human sexuality in Matthew 19:4-9, which He calls all other expressions of it outside the parameters of traditional marriage, which of course includes homosexual acts, "porneia" (the closest modern English word is "fornication" ), one must understand that ANY argument from an allegation of silence, let alone silence in itself, is intrinsically faulty. One emeritus Exodus leader that I emulate very much, Bob Davies, said it best in layman's terms when asked this same question in 1985 at an annual Exodus conference. He said, "Well, I don't remember Jesus addressing incest, or even chariot stealing, for that matter. By being silent about these issues, do you believe that He was actually condoning these as well? Now, do you see how ridiculous such an argument from silence can be?"
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > So, what was Bob inferring to in his retort? I believe he was making basically 2 important points, and possibly three. One, concerning incest, the Jewish culture during the time of Jesus' ministry didn't even have a Hebrew or Aramaic word to describe a person who commited this act, as the Koine Greek did, other than just using multiple words to describe a proscription of the particular behavior, as we find in Leviticus 18:6-18; 20:11-12,14. And the reason for this is that the Jewish culture was very moralistic, and not pagan, as the Canaanites and Egyptians were (Leviticus 18:1-5). Such acts must have been committed in at least a very covert fashion, if not having been much lower in frequency than with their neighbors. Therefore, other than the female prostitute, or adulteress, such as with Mary Magdalene, the Jewish people of Jesus' time were not identified by particular sexual sins, including homosexuality. It is
      > >
      > > > why we only find the apparently new Pauline word "arsenkoitais" for "one who commits homosexual acts" written to the church in the pagan Koine Greek culture of the city of Corinth (1 Corinthians 6:9), and not from the Jewish culture of Jesus' time, as in the gospel accounts. This compound word actually consists of the root of the two Greek words "anair" and "koitai" from Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 in the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament), meaning in English "man" and "bed", or euphemistically put by Paul as "men who go to bed together". Paul would logically choose to use such an euphemism because even the mention of such acts among the covenant people were considered not worthy of mentioning, and very shameful (Ephesians 5:3-4). This is the same issue for the word "malakoi" in 1 Corinthians 6:9, meaning "one who is weak" which comes right after "arsenkoitais" . The euphemistic implication by Paul is that both are commiting homosexual anal
      intercourse,
      > >
      > > > one being the "initiator" and the other being "receptive". Again, it is not so graphically apparent and spelled out here, but rather is an allusion to such, because as mentioned before, even mentioning such acts were considered shameful and indecent.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Two, as for "chariot stealing", I believe he was inferring that although this surely occurred in his day, it would have been covered under the eighth commandment "You shall not steal." (Exodus 20:15; Deuteronomy 5:19) Therefore, Jesus had no need to talk about it in particular, just as homosexual acts didn't need to be addressed specifically to the Jews either, because of the prohibition "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 19:6; Matthew 5:27-32), and Jesus' reaffirmation of the marital institution in passages such as Matthew 19:4-9 mentioned earlier. And lastly, by saying what he did say, I believe Bob Davies possibly was also inferring that there was many things that Jesus said and did that were not recorded in the gospel accounts. (John 21:25) And just because they weren't, doesn't at all mean that He didn't specifically mention them to His Jewish audience during His three years of ministry.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > And, Sarah, to address your comments "Have you gone without tattoos. animals with paws in your house, not touched a women on her period including shaking hands... ?", I believe you are attempting to point out the argument that since these issues are prohibited in the Old Covenant, but are not mentioned in the New, how can one then quote prohibitions regarding homosexual acts from the Old Testament when this ceremonial and civil law of the economy of Israel never applied to anyone not from that time and nation? Answer: Because anything that is reaffirmed in the New Testament by Jesus, Paul or the other authors of the NT from the OT does apply to modern times, since the Church age is still in existence. The proscription against homosexual acts is repeated in many passages in the NT (Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10), whereas nothing is mentioned about these other issues that you raised.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > I do hope this helps.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Blessings,
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Tom
      > >
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      > > >
      > >
      > > > --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...>
      > >
      > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > >
      > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > >
      > > > Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 9:48 AM
      > >
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      > > > Oh Yeah, I know the drill, check the brains that God gave you in at the door. Dude look at all you are refruiting. Sad when people like you make up your mind that you can not think any more. If Jesus was so dead set against homosexuality why did he say nothing about it. Have you gone without tattoos. animals with paws in your house, not touched a women on her period including shaking hands and have you given all that you have the poor?
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, moreytom@yahoo. com <moreytom@yahoo. com> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > From: moreytom@yahoo. com <moreytom@yahoo. com>
      > >
      > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > >
      > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > >
      > > > Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 1:58 PM
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Dear Sarah,
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Many of us Christians who are same sex attracted (SSA'd) would believe exactly what you are saying, if truth was based on the perceptions of one's own experience, and not on what the Bible says about God's creative and redemptive intent for us found in the Genesis account in chapters 1 and 2 and the Pauline passages, such
      > >
      > > > as 1 Corinthians 6:11. This reality is also corroborated by scientific research, in particular the many monozygote twin studies over the past thirty years, including the gay male scientists Bailey and Pillard's studies, as well as Hamer and Le Vay's respective admissions to SSAs' etiology being at least in part environmental (see Dr. A. Dean Byrd's "Born That Way:Fact or Fiction?")
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > So, in light of these facts, which obviously have not been propagated in a responsible manner to the public via the mass media and our institutions of public education, a very poignant question must be asked about why there is so much ignorance among intelligent folks, such as yourself, concerning these facts in a society where science is held in such a high esteem? That would be because of a veil of silence that was constructed mostly through socio-political propaganda of the professional guilds starting in the 1970's. These organizations, such as the APA, have
      > >
      > > > sadly sacrificed their mission of scientific inquiry for social and political advocacy and engineering. I recommend reading "After The Ball" regarding the conspiracy to propagandize America, and the rest of western culture, written by two gay men in 1989, one a neuropsychologist and the other a political scientist, Marshall K. Kirk and Hunter Madsen.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > I guess what I'm asking intelligent folks like yourself to do is to not place such wholesale trust in what you read or are told in the mass media, in our public education system, or even our scientific guilds anymore, but rather make personal inquiry into what the Bible actually says about the subject matter, which is totally accurate, and the latest research.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Tom Morey
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > One of the moderators of ExGDBd
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@
      > >
      > > > yahoo.com>
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 8:33 PM
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > BS, you are born Gay or not, God makes you that way and if you try and change you are just wearing a mask that is a lie!
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Hal Carr <freehcfree@ yahoo. com> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > From: Hal Carr <freehcfree@ yahoo. com>
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 10:01 AM
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > A Christian who has a born-again experience at age 9 grows up loving the Lord
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > with all his heart. He has a Christian family, has family devotions and a family meal every single day.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > He doesn't have many friends and is very shy. Boys pick on him at school. He doesn't fight them because he is taught by his dad and momma to
      > >
      > > > "turn the other cheek" as Jesus taught. He just feels like he's not cut out for sports. The more boys overlook him for flag football etc, the more he believes he can't do it.
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Boy what trauma when he notices around age 12yo and he is attracted to boys, particular those who are nice to him and who actually WANT him on their team?
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Analysis:
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > This kid has become homosexual. That's not the same as "This kid has become A homosexual". One is as adjective and one is a noun(an identity). He is a boy who struggles with unwanted homosexual feelings. He has considerable homo-emotional wounds. As he gets those issues addressed, the
      > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > > sexual charge around the same gender will naturally lessen. Each human is different so this varies.
      > >
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      > > > Then the kid acts out sexually with other males in desperation. He repents, finds a good Christian man to mentor him. He struggles but grows in
      > >
      > > > his masculinity. He read and studied w/ the heterosexual man, his mentor, books such as "Growth Into Manhood". Long story short at age 28, that dude who was "homosexual" , not "a homosexual", gets married. He and his wife are open about the past and they are on their journey together through life.
      > >
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      > > > Hal Carr
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    • Jim Berman
      Sarah, I have been reading your posts, sporadically for the past few months. I have made a few comments, however, with all due respect have to ask, why are you
      Message 52 of 52 , Aug 6, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Sarah,
        I have been reading your posts, sporadically for the past few months.
        I have made a few comments, however, with all due respect have to ask,
        why are you in this group?
        At first, I found your points of contention, gave me pause, but the theme is
        consistent.
        You are not interested in the concept of people choosing to follow a path
        that they believe
        to be right, and leaving behind a life that they believe to be wrong.
        I no longer comment on your posts, because they have become tedious, and
        monotonous.
        Atheists, should never go inside of a church, to attempt to dissuade those
        inside of their beliefs.
        And yet you seem content, and driven on coming into a group, dedicated to
        the belief that
        those suffering with SSA, can change.
        I do not know if you have a family member, or friend, or maybe yourself
        suffers from SSA in some sense.
        However, you do not in my belief, embody what this group is dedicated to
        achieving, contribute
        nothing but negative input, and at times, can be outright insulting.
        If you do not appreciate the content, or beliefs of this group, then leave.
        There is a large sector of the population, and Internet, that will affirm
        your beliefs.
        Why you are allowed to persist in this group, is to me a mystery.
        If you are a Christian, please pray before you post, because you do not post
        in love.
        And if you are not a Christian, then at least use common decency, and
        decorum when posting.

        JB


        On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > If you folks read the paper, and do not just check your brains in at the
        > door of your church, the paper shows what I have been saying all along, if
        > you are Gay you are gay and that is it. No such thing as Ex Gay! It is
        > like being a horse or dog, and then wanted to be a fish. Does not happen.
        > God makes you a way and there you are! It also goes on to say what I have
        > been saying and all science has been saying for decades, that if you repress
        > it it will come out like the fact in 2008 alone 5000 priests were charged
        > with Sexual Molestation of little boys! That is 5000! not 5 but 5000!
        >
        > --- On Mon, 8/3/09, aformer54 <debbie@...<debbie%40theformers.com>>
        > wrote:
        >
        > From: aformer54 <debbie@... <debbie%40theformers.com>>
        > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com<exgaydiscussionboard%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:00 AM
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you, Thom. Well said.
        >
        > Sarah, none of us here wants to appear as if we're piling on or
        > discrediting your every word. I appreciate where you are coming from. But do
        > try to give some consideration to where those of us who are "formers" also
        > are coming from. It is difficult for you to relate to our experiences,
        > perhaps. Fair enough. If you hang around here for a while, you may begin to
        > see a bit more of who we are and what we believe. That also includes those
        > here are love someone who is struggling or is on a path that does not lead
        > to wholeness.
        >
        > I'm sure you did not really mean to set up the false dilemma you did in
        > asking that rhetorical question about those in the priesthood who may be
        > either gay or straight but prone to molesting children. We are all familiar
        > with the Catholic Church's very pubic soul-searching in this regard. I
        > presume Jesus still has compassion for a struggler or sinner of any sort,
        > but would see him held accountable for his harmful behavior.
        >
        > Personally, I know God pursued me and wooed me to Himself in the first
        > place, and then back to His side when I strayed. I've said that here before.
        > Yes, this is the kind of loving God we have. He calls us into His presence,
        > but we must chose to go. He reveals Himself in a variety of ways, but we
        > must open our eyes to see and hear.
        >
        > Debbie
        >
        > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Sarah,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > You are certainly welcome to "think" something, but you should talk to
        > some of those who truly are ex-gay, who "know" rather than think. One of
        > the big problems we all face is that people like to limit other people to
        > what they "think" is possible, which of course puts major limitations on
        > what we believe is "doable" by God. I know many "ex-gays" who are not at
        > all repressed, but indeed experience a freedom for which they longed for
        > many years.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > While many do use the term "ex-gay," I don't usually use it any more than
        > I would call someone an "ex-heathen" or "ex-adulterer" or "ex-porn addict."
        > I don't identify people so much by what they were as what they are now,
        > changed by their acceptance of Christ and through yielding to the Holy
        > Spirit. They' re Christians, healed.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I lean on scripture, which is true and unchanging, rather than Freud, who
        > espoused theories, limited by his humanity.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Your question about whether Jesus would be more unhappy with homosexual
        > or a pedophile, is baseless. He came to seek and save all and he
        > would weep over anyone caught in those addictions, as well as for those
        > harmed by the actions. That's why He changes lives. It's not a question of
        > happiness. It's a reality of glorifying God by seeking to become more like
        > Him.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I love gay people, Sarah. And that's why I hope to see more of them
        > consider themselves formerly gay.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Thom
        >
        > > http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- On Mon, 8/3/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...>
        >
        > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > > Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 11:23 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I don't think there is anything such as ex gay, just repressed! Freud
        > said it best, that when sexuality if repressed it will come out weird.
        > Perhaps that is why so many priest and pastors abuse kids. They sit around
        > and act like the are "ExGay" for some time and then after a time, it eats at
        > them and they start doing little children! What do you think Jesus would
        > be most unhappy with? A man being Gay or abusing kids?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- On Sat, 7/18/09, bryon titus <titus6163@yahoo. com> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From: bryon titus <titus6163@yahoo. com>
        >
        > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > > Date: Saturday, July 18, 2009, 8:11 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > It is one thing to feel gay and another to act out in the sins of the
        > flesh.I am an ex-gay,thats why I come to this site,(ex-gay) .The best part
        > is that there is this freedom from such bondage.There is healing power
        > through Christ Jesus.it's funny how people pick at the bible and decide what
        > is rite and wrong, what they can live with. It's a form of passive
        > faith=what God will and will not consider to be sin. it's nothing short of
        > worshiping a false god.so, in short,I hope those who call themself a gay
        > christian are not acting out with no guilt,If there is no guilt for such an
        > act , then ther is no guidence of the Holy Spirit.I am a minister and head
        > up an ex-gay ministre in myrtle beach,and (yes) I am an ex-gay that found
        > freedom from such bondage through Christ Jesus...Stay in the light of the
        > Son
        >
        > >
        >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From: howrudun <howrudun@yahoo. com>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 1:42:59 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Tom, the Southern Baptists actually were intensely pro slavery. Read the
        > history on it. The baptist were a denomination that included norther and
        > southern churches. the debate on slavery split the church. This split
        > occurred prior to the South succeeding from the Union. The issue was only
        > about slavery. The southern churches basically said it was OK beause it was
        > Biblically official and that the northern churches shouldn't meddle. The
        > northern churches said it was sinful and unjust and needed to be eliminated
        > from society but especially needed to be eliminated from the church. The
        > only reason that Southern Baptist split from the northers churches and came
        > into existence is their stand on slavery. Granted the SBC has come a long
        > way since then and isn't a racially motivated denomination today but the
        > historical beginnings still are true.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I am a former Southern Baptist minister. I know the history!
        >
        > >
        >
        > > PS: Yes I am a gay Christian as well.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > In Christ,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Howrudun
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey <moreytom@.> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Dear Sarah,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Dear Sarah,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > The Baptists (I guess you mean the Southern Baptist convention) never
        > supported slavery. Other than for obvious reasons, the Bible actually
        > condemns slavetrading in 1 Timothy 1:10! In fact, most abolitionists in the
        > early 1800's were indeed Christians. I believe you are getting your
        > information from those who unfortunately are revisionists of American
        > history. I suggest reading David Barton's volumes on this at
        > www.wallbuilders. com.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Blessings,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Tom
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 7:41 PM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > AH Dude, Gay people can get married. All your arguing is the same that
        > went on for thousands of years to support Slavery, that is why Babtist
        > finally got around to saying they are sorry for supporting African American
        > Slavery!
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > --- On Sun, 6/28/09, aformer54 <debbie@theformers. com> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > From: aformer54 <debbie@theformers. com>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 8:36 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Thank you, Tom. Yes, it was well worth it for the greater benefit of
        > all, including Sarah, for you to give such a detailed answer. You are
        > appreciated, brother.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Debbie
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, moreytom@ wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Dear Sarah,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > I'm not sure whether you really do desire a reply from me regarding
        > your arguments about homosexuality and what the Bible says about the issue.
        > But, I guess I'll just choose to respond and believe that you do until you
        > say otherwise, as well as for the sake of other ExGDBd members who may also
        > have similar questions.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Other than already what I shared about how Jesus directly addressed
        > the issue of His will for human sexuality in Matthew 19:4-9, which He calls
        > all other expressions of it outside the parameters of traditional marriage,
        > which of course includes homosexual acts, "porneia" (the closest modern
        > English word is "fornication" ), one must understand that ANY argument from
        > an allegation of silence, let alone silence in itself, is intrinsically
        > faulty. One emeritus Exodus leader that I emulate very much, Bob Davies,
        > said it best in layman's terms when asked this same question in 1985 at an
        > annual Exodus conference. He said, "Well, I don't remember Jesus addressing
        > incest, or even chariot stealing, for that matter. By being silent about
        > these issues, do you believe that He was actually condoning these as well?
        > Now, do you see how ridiculous such an argument from silence can be?"
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > So, what was Bob inferring to in his retort? I believe he was making
        > basically 2 important points, and possibly three. One, concerning incest,
        > the Jewish culture during the time of Jesus' ministry didn't even have a
        > Hebrew or Aramaic word to describe a person who commited this act, as the
        > Koine Greek did, other than just using multiple words to describe a
        > proscription of the particular behavior, as we find in Leviticus 18:6-18;
        > 20:11-12,14. And the reason for this is that the Jewish culture was very
        > moralistic, and not pagan, as the Canaanites and Egyptians were (Leviticus
        > 18:1-5). Such acts must have been committed in at least a very covert
        > fashion, if not having been much lower in frequency than with their
        > neighbors. Therefore, other than the female prostitute, or adulteress, such
        > as with Mary Magdalene, the Jewish people of Jesus' time were not identified
        > by particular sexual sins, including homosexuality. It is
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > why we only find the apparently new Pauline word "arsenkoitais" for
        > "one who commits homosexual acts" written to the church in the pagan Koine
        > Greek culture of the city of Corinth (1 Corinthians 6:9), and not from the
        > Jewish culture of Jesus' time, as in the gospel accounts. This compound word
        > actually consists of the root of the two Greek words "anair" and "koitai"
        > from Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 in the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament),
        > meaning in English "man" and "bed", or euphemistically put by Paul as "men
        > who go to bed together". Paul would logically choose to use such an
        > euphemism because even the mention of such acts among the covenant people
        > were considered not worthy of mentioning, and very shameful (Ephesians
        > 5:3-4). This is the same issue for the word "malakoi" in 1 Corinthians 6:9,
        > meaning "one who is weak" which comes right after "arsenkoitais" . The
        > euphemistic implication by Paul is that both are commiting homosexual anal
        > intercourse,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > one being the "initiator" and the other being "receptive". Again, it
        > is not so graphically apparent and spelled out here, but rather is an
        > allusion to such, because as mentioned before, even mentioning such acts
        > were considered shameful and indecent.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Two, as for "chariot stealing", I believe he was inferring that
        > although this surely occurred in his day, it would have been covered under
        > the eighth commandment "You shall not steal." (Exodus 20:15; Deuteronomy
        > 5:19) Therefore, Jesus had no need to talk about it in particular, just as
        > homosexual acts didn't need to be addressed specifically to the Jews either,
        > because of the prohibition "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14;
        > Deuteronomy 19:6; Matthew 5:27-32), and Jesus' reaffirmation of the marital
        > institution in passages such as Matthew 19:4-9 mentioned earlier. And
        > lastly, by saying what he did say, I believe Bob Davies possibly was also
        > inferring that there was many things that Jesus said and did that were not
        > recorded in the gospel accounts. (John 21:25) And just because they weren't,
        > doesn't at all mean that He didn't specifically mention them to His Jewish
        > audience during His three years of ministry.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > And, Sarah, to address your comments "Have you gone without tattoos.
        > animals with paws in your house, not touched a women on her period including
        > shaking hands... ?", I believe you are attempting to point out the argument
        > that since these issues are prohibited in the Old Covenant, but are not
        > mentioned in the New, how can one then quote prohibitions regarding
        > homosexual acts from the Old Testament when this ceremonial and civil law of
        > the economy of Israel never applied to anyone not from that time and nation?
        > Answer: Because anything that is reaffirmed in the New Testament by Jesus,
        > Paul or the other authors of the NT from the OT does apply to modern times,
        > since the Church age is still in existence. The proscription against
        > homosexual acts is repeated in many passages in the NT (Romans 1:26-27, 1
        > Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10), whereas nothing is mentioned about these
        > other issues that you raised.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > I do hope this helps.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Blessings,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Tom
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ ...>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 9:48 AM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Oh Yeah, I know the drill, check the brains that God gave you in at
        > the door. Dude look at all you are refruiting. Sad when people like you make
        > up your mind that you can not think any more. If Jesus was so dead set
        > against homosexuality why did he say nothing about it. Have you gone without
        > tattoos. animals with paws in your house, not touched a women on her period
        > including shaking hands and have you given all that you have the poor?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, moreytom@yahoo. com <moreytom@yahoo. com>
        > wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > From: moreytom@yahoo. com <moreytom@yahoo. com>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 1:58 PM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Dear Sarah,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Many of us Christians who are same sex attracted (SSA'd) would
        > believe exactly what you are saying, if truth was based on the perceptions
        > of one's own experience, and not on what the Bible says about God's creative
        > and redemptive intent for us found in the Genesis account in chapters 1 and
        > 2 and the Pauline passages, such
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > as 1 Corinthians 6:11. This reality is also corroborated by
        > scientific research, in particular the many monozygote twin studies over the
        > past thirty years, including the gay male scientists Bailey and Pillard's
        > studies, as well as Hamer and Le Vay's respective admissions to SSAs'
        > etiology being at least in part environmental (see Dr. A. Dean Byrd's "Born
        > That Way:Fact or Fiction?")
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > So, in light of these facts, which obviously have not been propagated
        > in a responsible manner to the public via the mass media and our
        > institutions of public education, a very poignant question must be asked
        > about why there is so much ignorance among intelligent folks, such as
        > yourself, concerning these facts in a society where science is held in such
        > a high esteem? That would be because of a veil of silence that was
        > constructed mostly through socio-political propaganda of the professional
        > guilds starting in the 1970's. These organizations, such as the APA, have
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > sadly sacrificed their mission of scientific inquiry for social and
        > political advocacy and engineering. I recommend reading "After The Ball"
        > regarding the conspiracy to propagandize America, and the rest of western
        > culture, written by two gay men in 1989, one a neuropsychologist and the
        > other a political scientist, Marshall K. Kirk and Hunter Madsen.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > I guess what I'm asking intelligent folks like yourself to do is to
        > not place such wholesale trust in what you read or are told in the mass
        > media, in our public education system, or even our scientific guilds
        > anymore, but rather make personal inquiry into what the Bible actually says
        > about the subject matter, which is totally accurate, and the latest
        > research.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Thanks,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Tom Morey
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > One of the moderators of ExGDBd
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > From: Sarah Hill <fellsgoodtosay@
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > yahoo.com>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 8:33 PM
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > BS, you are born Gay or not, God makes you that way and if you try
        > and change you are just wearing a mask that is a lie!
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Hal Carr <freehcfree@ yahoo. com> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > > From: Hal Carr <freehcfree@ yahoo. com>
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > >
        >
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        > > > > Subject: [ExGDBd] What is a Christian becomes homosexual?
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        > > > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
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        > > > > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 10:01 AM
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        > > > > A Christian who has a born-again experience at age 9 grows up loving
        > the Lord
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        > > > > with all his heart. He has a Christian family, has family devotions
        > and a family meal every single day.
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        > > > > He doesn't have many friends and is very shy. Boys pick on him at
        > school. He doesn't fight them because he is taught by his dad and momma to
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        > > > > "turn the other cheek" as Jesus taught. He just feels like he's not
        > cut out for sports. The more boys overlook him for flag football etc, the
        > more he believes he can't do it.
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        > > > > Boy what trauma when he notices around age 12yo and he is attracted
        > to boys, particular those who are nice to him and who actually WANT him on
        > their team?
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        > > > > Analysis:
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        > > > > This kid has become homosexual. That's not the same as "This kid has
        > become A homosexual". One is as adjective and one is a noun(an identity). He
        > is a boy who struggles with unwanted homosexual feelings. He has
        > considerable homo-emotional wounds. As he gets those issues addressed, the
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        > > > > sexual charge around the same gender will naturally lessen. Each
        > human is different so this varies.
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        > > > > Then the kid acts out sexually with other males in desperation. He
        > repents, finds a good Christian man to mentor him. He struggles but grows in
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        > > > > his masculinity. He read and studied w/ the heterosexual man, his
        > mentor, books such as "Growth Into Manhood". Long story short at age 28,
        > that dude who was "homosexual" , not "a homosexual", gets married. He and
        > his wife are open about the past and they are on their journey together
        > through life.
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        > > > > Hal Carr
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        --
        Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That
        way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

        James Berman
        jmberman@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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